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dungeon finder defeats the ppurpose if people are queing as fake roles.
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kichwas✭✭✭✭The easy fix would be to make tanks and healers just as enjoyable to play as dps. The issue will disappear as more people will happily fill those roles for a dungeon.
Why would we make tanks and healers less fun?
They should make DPS just as enjoyable as tanks and healers - not ruin the fun of tanking and healing.
Jah bless
PST timezone - mostly PvE player.
Super casual player
Seeking a casual 'lets do some dungeons and world stuff together' guild.0 -
robertthebard✭✭✭✭✭I've got a good idea, just get rid of group finder. Make people have to form their own groups for a while, and see what it's like to have to spam chats, multiple because not everyone's in the same zone, unlike other games that have an actual world chat where you can get everyone's attention. /sarcasm
I've played under that system, and it sucks. I'm starting to have severe deja vu from all of these duplicate threads, and starting to sound a lot like a broken record, but if you want total control of who's in your group, build your group, and get out of group finder. If you can't be bothered, for whatever reason, to do that, then just take what you get. You put yourself in that situation, deal with it.1 -
Mancombe_Nosehair✭✭✭✭✭I've done a couple of dungeons now, and played against someone in a battleground, who does nothing but chains over and over again. He does queue as a dps though...Edited by Mancombe_Nosehair on May 9, 2020 6:14PM0 -
Ardan147✭✭✭✭The easy fix would be to make tanks and healers just as enjoyable to play as dps. The issue will disappear as more people will happily fill those roles for a dungeon.
Why would we make tanks and healers less fun?
They should make DPS just as enjoyable as tanks and healers - not ruin the fun of tanking and healing.
That trying to do anything solo with a tank can be a real pain the arse. Not quite as bad as with healers as they can be reconfigured as a dps when necessary; just swap out gear and skills.This creature called a songbird. What a devious creation! This winged nuisance erodes sanity with its incessant chirping. What a brilliant form of torture!1 -
kichwas✭✭✭✭The easy fix would be to make tanks and healers just as enjoyable to play as dps. The issue will disappear as more people will happily fill those roles for a dungeon.
Why would we make tanks and healers less fun?
They should make DPS just as enjoyable as tanks and healers - not ruin the fun of tanking and healing.
That trying to do anything solo with a tank can be a real pain the arse. Not quite as bad as with healers as they can be reconfigured as a dps when necessary; just swap out gear and skills.
I guess I haven't noticed that.
Jah bless
PST timezone - mostly PvE player.
Super casual player
Seeking a casual 'lets do some dungeons and world stuff together' guild.0 -
ForzaRammer✭✭✭✭✭
✭As a real tank, I agree, kick the subpar dps first, they are freeloaders queing as damage dealers1 -
Foefaller✭✭✭The easy fix would be to make tanks and healers just as enjoyable to play as dps. The issue will disappear as more people will happily fill those roles for a dungeon.
Why would we make tanks and healers less fun?
They should make DPS just as enjoyable as tanks and healers - not ruin the fun of tanking and healing.
That trying to do anything solo with a tank can be a real pain the arse. Not quite as bad as with healers as they can be reconfigured as a dps when necessary; just swap out gear and skills.
I guess I haven't noticed that.
I notice it every time I run into someone when soloing, when they take out a group much like the one I was fighting in a fraction of the time.
It's one of the reasons I got a Werewolf bite, despite Vamp being the meta. At least with the former I can rage out and kill things relatively quickly, even if only for a while.0 -
zvavi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I kicked out of group a fake tank today. Then requeued. Got the same guy again. Kicked him again. If everyone do that, they will stop appearing.
PS: I don't mind if you deal damage, but if the boss is on me, u r getting the boot.3 -
Hotdog_23✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭My friends weren't online today so I decided to pug pledges. Went on my necro tank, solid setup, with plenty of grp dps buffs. One of our "dps" was 1600 cp dude using lightning staff and sword and board, spamming turn evil, defensive posture and crushing shock, also kept running out of resources and just spammed light attacks.
It's people like this that, that make me wanna just put on dps gear and go f it.
And this type of *** happens with the dungeon finder way too often.
I avoid it like a plague normally.
They were probably on a new character and leveling skills by doing a quick random for the 100k exp while enlighten was activate for PVP build. It is pretty easy to spot a PVP build doing a dungeon.0 -
zvavi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭They were probably on a new character and leveling skills by doing a quick random for the 100k exp while enlighten was activate for PVP build. It is pretty easy to spot a PVP build doing a dungeon.
Please don't look down on PvP players. Using cc to "counterplay" dumb adds in a dungeon is not their thing.Edited by zvavi on May 10, 2020 5:37AM1 -
Hotdog_23✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭They were probably on a new character and leveling skills by doing a quick random for the 100k exp while enlighten was activate for PVP build. It is pretty easy to spot a PVP build doing a dungeon.
Please don't look down on PvP players. Using cc to "counterplay" dumb adds in a dungeon is not their thing.
Oh no I am not at all and don't have a problem with them for using the system ZOS has given us to quickly level skills. Just trying to explain what Firstmep was more than likely seeing.0 -
Firstmep✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭They were probably on a new character and leveling skills by doing a quick random for the 100k exp while enlighten was activate for PVP build. It is pretty easy to spot a PVP build doing a dungeon.
Please don't look down on PvP players. Using cc to "counterplay" dumb adds in a dungeon is not their thing.
Especially since on my necro tank I can already aoe cc on demand, this isn't wow where dps needs to sap sheep etc.
Also what if he was using a pvp build? This is on PC, with dressing room it takes 2 seconds to throw on pve gear, you can literally use mothers sorrow and like Julianos and pull decent dps in 4 man content.
Anyway the above was just one example, stuff like this happens pretty much every time I used the dungeon finder, which is why I avoid it as much as possible.
It's usually poor new low cp players queuing for random and getting into a vet dlc dungeon they have no business plugging.
I have never played another mmo where the skill gap between the bottom and the top was this insane.
They really should add more system to help new players learn, like a mentoring system for example.0 -
zvavi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭They really should add more system to help new players learn, like a mentoring system for example.
If you think that check out the link to my post earlier in the thread, non toxic helpful way to help players. Kinda long though.
PS: a more realistic scenario would be him being a overland player that is used to turning enemies then killing them with spammables before they get out of stun...Edited by zvavi on May 10, 2020 5:51AM0 -
jm42✭✭✭✭To be honest, in regular dungeons 4 DPS can run it just fine
I don't care at all. if it says T+H+2DD then I want to see T+H+2DD. If you can do it in all DD setup then go to your guild and do it with your friends and don't touch AF. I'm just tired of useless newbie khajiit sorcerers with 12k HP and no DPS queuing as a tank and so on.1 -
Xebov✭✭✭✭✭
✭That trying to do anything solo with a tank can be a real pain the arse. Not quite as bad as with healers as they can be reconfigured as a dps when necessary; just swap out gear and skills.
Tanks can also easily be reconfigured by swapping gear and skills. Not to a maximum extend of course. Thats only a small portion of the problem. Every MMO naturally has a shortage in Healers and Tanks. I played MMOs that had buffs for Tanks and Healers so tehy could do solo questing, and even there they had this issue.
Players dont want to play as Heals and Tanks, many dont want to get the repsonibility of the role. You cant force them into it and i never seen a game where tehy had a working solution to combat this.0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The purpose of dungeon finder is not defeated by people queuing for a role they cannot perform. Granted, the specific group that gets a fake tank or healer is hindered.
First off, players that do not vote kicking fake tanks and healers are enabling them to continue queueing for a role they cannot perform. Those players are just as much of the problem. So if you do not vote kicking them or at least trying you are just as bad as the tank tanks.
Second, the fake tanks and healers I have seen are pretty lame DPS so there is no reason to keep them. Their DPS is pretty lame and they are too oblivious to what is going on that they often die to mechanics that any role should easily avoid. Again vote kick them.
Third, form your own group from your guild. Unless one is in a guild with pretty bad players it is almost always a better run with guildmates than going for a random group via GF. Think about it for a moment. Most decent players are already in a decent guild so they do not have much need for having Zos find some players for them. It is easy and fast to form a group and avoid the perils of rolling the dice.1 -
robertthebard✭✭✭✭✭The purpose of dungeon finder is not defeated by people queuing for a role they cannot perform. Granted, the specific group that gets a fake tank or healer is hindered.
First off, players that do not vote kicking fake tanks and healers are enabling them to continue queueing for a role they cannot perform. Those players are just as much of the problem. So if you do not vote kicking them or at least trying you are just as bad as the tank tanks.
Second, the fake tanks and healers I have seen are pretty lame DPS so there is no reason to keep them. Their DPS is pretty lame and they are too oblivious to what is going on that they often die to mechanics that any role should easily avoid. Again vote kick them.
Third, form your own group from your guild. Unless one is in a guild with pretty bad players it is almost always a better run with guildmates than going for a random group via GF. Think about it for a moment. Most decent players are already in a decent guild so they do not have much need for having Zos find some players for them. It is easy and fast to form a group and avoid the perils of rolling the dice.
I submit that guild groups are more fun, regardless of the quality of players, because they are, by definition, groups made up of people you want to hang out with. If they weren't, why are you in that particular guild? That's the only flaw in a multiple guild system, in so far as I can tell, join a guild simply to get perks, if any, but never interact with them.0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭robertthebard wrote: »The purpose of dungeon finder is not defeated by people queuing for a role they cannot perform. Granted, the specific group that gets a fake tank or healer is hindered.
First off, players that do not vote kicking fake tanks and healers are enabling them to continue queueing for a role they cannot perform. Those players are just as much of the problem. So if you do not vote kicking them or at least trying you are just as bad as the tank tanks.
Second, the fake tanks and healers I have seen are pretty lame DPS so there is no reason to keep them. Their DPS is pretty lame and they are too oblivious to what is going on that they often die to mechanics that any role should easily avoid. Again vote kick them.
Third, form your own group from your guild. Unless one is in a guild with pretty bad players it is almost always a better run with guildmates than going for a random group via GF. Think about it for a moment. Most decent players are already in a decent guild so they do not have much need for having Zos find some players for them. It is easy and fast to form a group and avoid the perils of rolling the dice.
I submit that guild groups are more fun, regardless of the quality of players, because they are, by definition, groups made up of people you want to hang out with. If they weren't, why are you in that particular guild? That's the only flaw in a multiple guild system, in so far as I can tell, join a guild simply to get perks, if any, but never interact with them.
True that guild groups are more fun. They are also better for when learning a new dungeon or new role as they tend to be more understanding.
Guild members have also been vetted to ensure they meet the interests of the guild. Even in a casual social guild there should be a process to prevent getting jerks and such. With the group finder, there is no such vetting and you can get the most ignorant individual as a result. Heck, afaik, we are not even protected by the ignore list when we use the GF. lol.0 -
Jaimeh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I think a lot of this 'fake roles' issue is people queing into a normal and finding someone not on an Officially Alcast Approved Build™... or still leveling... and deciding that's a "fake build".
Every now and then I will see something like a tank that has no taunt skill... or a healer that never casts any kind of heal... but these are super rare.
But especially in normal dungeons I see a lot of people who are below 3-million CP, and not running Alcast Builds...
It's actually a very frequent occurence, I've being doing a lot of random normal runs on EU while levelling new characters, and I don't think I've encountered a single instance where there wasn't a fake tank or a fake healer. I'm an old player so it's not a big deal for me (though still frustrating, for the sheer fact that no aggro means spending more time chasing around mobs), but for new players it must be a really frustrating experience.0 -
eso_lags✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Some people want to get through dungeons fast and most of the base game dungeons dont require a healer. A tank can be nice just to hold agro of certain bosses, but even some dont need a tank either. DLC dungeons are another story.
I get it, some people want to just run through with a basic 2 DD/tank/heal group, but then you should probably post in chat or run with a guild. Plus you always have the option to kick people.
Personally I think a bigger problem is people queing for stuff they arent geared for. Like cp 200s in random gear queing for veteran dungeons, or even worse veteran DLC dungeons. Running many dungeons with 3 or 4 dps is a benefit, but running anything under geared players is not. I mean im someone that still does it, like for example last night I ran 2 280 CPs through veteran fang lair with another max CP. So if you want to be nice its fine, but in the end it is a hindrance.1 -
Firstmep✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Some people want to get through dungeons fast and most of the base game dungeons dont require a healer. A tank can be nice just to hold agro of certain bosses, but even some dont need a tank either. DLC dungeons are another story.
I get it, some people want to just run through with a basic 2 DD/tank/heal group, but then you should probably post in chat or run with a guild. Plus you always have the option to kick people.
Personally I think a bigger problem is people queing for stuff they arent geared for. Like cp 200s in random gear queing for veteran dungeons, or even worse veteran DLC dungeons. Running many dungeons with 3 or 4 dps is a benefit, but running anything under geared players is not. I mean im someone that still does it, like for example last night I ran 2 280 CPs through veteran fang lair with another max CP. So if you want to be nice its fine, but in the end it is a hindrance.
I still don't understand why low cp ppl can even queue for. Dlc vets,.0 -
zvavi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Some people want to get through dungeons fast and most of the base game dungeons dont require a healer. A tank can be nice just to hold agro of certain bosses, but even some dont need a tank either. DLC dungeons are another story.
I get it, some people want to just run through with a basic 2 DD/tank/heal group, but then you should probably post in chat or run with a guild. Plus you always have the option to kick people.
Personally I think a bigger problem is people queing for stuff they arent geared for. Like cp 200s in random gear queing for veteran dungeons, or even worse veteran DLC dungeons. Running many dungeons with 3 or 4 dps is a benefit, but running anything under geared players is not. I mean im someone that still does it, like for example last night I ran 2 280 CPs through veteran fang lair with another max CP. So if you want to be nice its fine, but in the end it is a hindrance.
I still don't understand why low cp ppl can even queue for. Dlc vets,.
I saw low cp tanks healers and dds pulling their weight in my pugged vDLCEdited by zvavi on May 10, 2020 6:02PM0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Some people want to get through dungeons fast and most of the base game dungeons dont require a healer. A tank can be nice just to hold agro of certain bosses, but even some dont need a tank either. DLC dungeons are another story.
I get it, some people want to just run through with a basic 2 DD/tank/heal group, but then you should probably post in chat or run with a guild. Plus you always have the option to kick people.
Personally I think a bigger problem is people queing for stuff they arent geared for. Like cp 200s in random gear queing for veteran dungeons, or even worse veteran DLC dungeons. Running many dungeons with 3 or 4 dps is a benefit, but running anything under geared players is not. I mean im someone that still does it, like for example last night I ran 2 280 CPs through veteran fang lair with another max CP. So if you want to be nice its fine, but in the end it is a hindrance.
Meh. If someone really wanted to get through a dungeon fast they would form a decent group instead of relying on GF. If they are a decent player they are likely in a decent guild so this would be easy.
Of the few times I dealt with a fake tank, I usually form from my raid guilds, the fake tank was a pathetic DPS in al aspects.
So yes, if people have a problem with a fake tank, kick them to the curb and be done with it. Also, have an alternate build where you can handle tanking. That way you can take control of the situation. Form your groups from a guild and on average you will get better players.
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idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Some people want to get through dungeons fast and most of the base game dungeons dont require a healer. A tank can be nice just to hold agro of certain bosses, but even some dont need a tank either. DLC dungeons are another story.
I get it, some people want to just run through with a basic 2 DD/tank/heal group, but then you should probably post in chat or run with a guild. Plus you always have the option to kick people.
Personally I think a bigger problem is people queing for stuff they arent geared for. Like cp 200s in random gear queing for veteran dungeons, or even worse veteran DLC dungeons. Running many dungeons with 3 or 4 dps is a benefit, but running anything under geared players is not. I mean im someone that still does it, like for example last night I ran 2 280 CPs through veteran fang lair with another max CP. So if you want to be nice its fine, but in the end it is a hindrance.
I still don't understand why low cp ppl can even queue for. Dlc vets,.
@Firstmep There are CP restrictions for the vet dungeons. You may it look like they can queue for a vet DLC dungeon at CP 10 and that is not the case. Also, CP has little to do with how well someone plays.
Further, myself and others I game with have multiple accounts. Several of us have shared experiences of random GF groups when we were on an alt account at ~CP 160 out DPSing the entire group by a large margin when they are CP capped. The funniest stories is when we are a healer at CP160 out DPSing both DPS combined.
Raise the DLC requirement to the CP cap and you still get fairly unskilled players in DLC dungeons. Form your own group from a guild and enjoy smoother runs.0 -
newtinmpls✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Some people want to get through dungeons fast and most of the base game dungeons dont require a healer. A tank can be nice just to hold agro of certain bosses, but even some dont need a tank either. DLC dungeons are another story.
In some ways, this is part of the problem.
When I'm in a 2-man group with my bestie, and we use the dungeon finder to do a random, I will notice if the tank isn't taunting.
Mostly because our 2-man groups seem to usually be healer & DPS 'cause we both have plenty of those. I do tank, but I notice "no taunt" faster than I notice "minimal heals" because we have pretty good self-heals.
Here is the thing, though... when my impulse is to just ask in group chat "hey, who is the tank" or "do you have a taunt" slotted, my bestie thinks I "shouldn't worry about it".
I disagree. Yes, it's not "needed" but learning and practicing good habits will be better for anyone's practice.
As an example, I have been experimenting with a lot of tank builds - and none of them are DK's so ALL of them work to increase Fighter's Guild, slot Silver Bolt, and morph it to Silver Leash as soon as possible, because a decent tank needs a pull.
Same with all my non-templar healers - I work to level undaunted up so I can get "orbs" because without shards I need a way to restore resources to the rest of the party.Tenesi Faryon of Telvanni - Dunmer Sorceress who deliberately sought sacrifice into Cold Harbor to rescue her beloved.
Hisa Ni Caemaire - Altmer Sorceress, member of the Order Draconis and Adept of the House of Dibella.
Broken Branch Toothmaul - goblin (for my goblin characters, I use either orsimer or bosmer templates) Templar, member of the Order Draconis and persistently unskilled pickpocket
Mol gro Durga - Orsimer Socerer/Battlemage who died the first time when the Nibenay Valley chapterhouse of the Order Draconis was destroyed, then went back to Cold Harbor to rescue his second/partner who was still captive. He overestimated his resistance to the hopelessness of Oblivion, about to give up, and looked up to see the golden glow of atherius surrounding a beautiful young woman who extended her hand to him and said "I can help you". He carried Fianna Kingsley out of Cold Harbor on his shoulder. He carried Alvard Stower under one arm. He also irritated the Prophet who had intended the portal for only Mol and Lyris.***Order Draconis - well c'mon there has to be some explanation for all those dragon tattoos.
House of Dibella - If you have ever seen or read "Memoirs of a Geisha" that's just the beginning...
Nibenay Valley Chapterhouse - Where now stands only desolate ground and a dolmen there once was a thriving community supporting one of the major chapterhouses of the Order Draconis0 -
Firstmep✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Some people want to get through dungeons fast and most of the base game dungeons dont require a healer. A tank can be nice just to hold agro of certain bosses, but even some dont need a tank either. DLC dungeons are another story.
I get it, some people want to just run through with a basic 2 DD/tank/heal group, but then you should probably post in chat or run with a guild. Plus you always have the option to kick people.
Personally I think a bigger problem is people queing for stuff they arent geared for. Like cp 200s in random gear queing for veteran dungeons, or even worse veteran DLC dungeons. Running many dungeons with 3 or 4 dps is a benefit, but running anything under geared players is not. I mean im someone that still does it, like for example last night I ran 2 280 CPs through veteran fang lair with another max CP. So if you want to be nice its fine, but in the end it is a hindrance.
I still don't understand why low cp ppl can even queue for. Dlc vets,.Some people want to get through dungeons fast and most of the base game dungeons dont require a healer. A tank can be nice just to hold agro of certain bosses, but even some dont need a tank either. DLC dungeons are another story.
I get it, some people want to just run through with a basic 2 DD/tank/heal group, but then you should probably post in chat or run with a guild. Plus you always have the option to kick people.
Personally I think a bigger problem is people queing for stuff they arent geared for. Like cp 200s in random gear queing for veteran dungeons, or even worse veteran DLC dungeons. Running many dungeons with 3 or 4 dps is a benefit, but running anything under geared players is not. I mean im someone that still does it, like for example last night I ran 2 280 CPs through veteran fang lair with another max CP. So if you want to be nice its fine, but in the end it is a hindrance.
I still don't understand why low cp ppl can even queue for. Dlc vets,.
@Firstmep There are CP restrictions for the vet dungeons. You may it look like they can queue for a vet DLC dungeon at CP 10 and that is not the case. Also, CP has little to do with how well someone plays.
Further, myself and others I game with have multiple accounts. Several of us have shared experiences of random GF groups when we were on an alt account at ~CP 160 out DPSing the entire group by a large margin when they are CP capped. The funniest stories is when we are a healer at CP160 out DPSing both DPS combined.
Raise the DLC requirement to the CP cap and you still get fairly unskilled players in DLC dungeons. Form your own group from a guild and enjoy smoother runs.
Cp has little to do with how well someone plays? Apart from the power difference between someone with 100cp and 810, there's also the matter of experience.
Yes sometimes low cp players perform admirably, but on average 8 out of 10 low cp players I've encountered in the group finder were a detriment to the group, rather than useful.
And yes, usually it's not very difficult to carry new players, however the current system doesn't really force people to get better, ofc this is not just related to dungeons.
You playing better on an alt account, than someone at high cp is actually an outlier, and doesn't represent the average low cp player.
Meanwhile loads of new players queue into random vet and get into dlc dungeons, and trust me its not an enjoyable experience for them either.
I don't think removing vet dlcs from the daily random rotation, let's say under 600cp, would a massive detriment to anyone's enjoyment of the game, but would allow newer players more time before theyre thrust into the Frey.
They could still queue for these dungeons specifically anyway.0 -
Tammany✭✭✭✭but for new players it must be a really frustrating experience.
As a newbie i've used to "that boss gonna chase me whole fight" since like... first dungeon.
Sometimes i had "then why this game needs tank role at all hmm" in my head, but i still thought its just a game mechanic
Edited by Tammany on May 11, 2020 8:42AM0
