dungeon finder defeats the ppurpose if people are queing as fake roles.

Eifleber

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I started healing with a Templar with a recommended setup.
Turns out in 95% the dungeons it's not needed.
Sometimes it seems to me that those builds are mainly meant for trials and not so much dungeons.

I daresay you can do most dungeons (yes even most vet) with a rest staff with 2-3 healing skills, it's just that easy.
Like a Warden with Rapid Regeneration, Budding Seeds and Expansive Frost Cloak. It's ridiculously effective.
Specialized healing gear is also rather unnecessary in by far the most dungeons.

If people still die it's either from mechanics or instakill spike damage, about which a healer can't do anything anyway.

Nowadays I queue as hybrid healer with 5-6 heal and support skills and a backbar with mainly dps skills.
Much more efficient and speeds up the run significantly. Much more fun as well, I feel a lot more useful.
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Olen_Mikko

It's actually better, if dd queues as a fake tank for normal dungeons. That means faster run.

But it happens rarely in veteran dungeons. If it does happen, i vote to kick immediately

Ryath_Waylander

It's a pity the dungeon finder is so rocky in ESO. I think a possible solution would be:
1) Be able to toggle DLC/non-DLC for random with standard roles.
2) Have a voluntary optional lobby, for those who are prepared to queue longer, in order to have a better chance at clearing a nasty vet DLC or an achievement run. ME3 had a good one where you could scrutinise equip/XP/Class of the players queuing.
3) Have the "I'm feeling lucky/I'm strong enough not to care/I'm only queuing with a group for the Rnd xp bonus" option.
4) Have a "Lore/loot/storyline" queue. Know in advance that these players want to hear the dialogue and loot every chest.

It won't happen but it's nice to dream.

craybest

This problem is as old as the trinity itself. There are just more dps than tanks and healers. It's why I've never enjoyed the trinity itself.
Leveling a tank or healer is always more annoying than a dps since you can't kill as fast. So most people go the dps route and then we lack the other 2 roles.

Eifleber

craybest wrote: »

This problem is as old as the trinity itself. There are just more dps than tanks and healers. It's why I've never enjoyed the trinity itself.
Leveling a tank or healer is always more annoying than a dps since you can't kill as fast. So most people go the dps route and then we lack the other 2 roles.

Not quite though.

in ESO it's mosty gear that makes the biggest difference, before lvl50 you don't have CP anyway.
Unlike most MMOs where class and skill tree choices gimp you in any other role.

What the ratio is concerned why not design 5 player dungeons for 3 dd and T/H.
Would already help.

jm42

Eifleber wrote: »

craybest wrote: »

This problem is as old as the trinity itself. There are just more dps than tanks and healers. It's why I've never enjoyed the trinity itself.
Leveling a tank or healer is always more annoying than a dps since you can't kill as fast. So most people go the dps route and then we lack the other 2 roles.

Not quite though.

in ESO it's mosty gear that makes the biggest difference, before lvl50 you don't have CP anyway.
Unlike most MMOs where class and skill tree choices gimp you in any other role.

What the ratio is concerned why not design 5 player dungeons for 3 dd and T/H.
Would already help.

Lineage 2 designed instances for 9 ppl with 5 DD and we still don't have enough support roles there and you can wait 2 hours till you find heal or tank (shouting in chat btw, there is no group finder there), even with the fact that tank in L2 can be replaced with bards.
it will never be enough heals or tanks

arena25

Problem is, most games and their features are designed for DPS roles and not tank/heal roles. In fact, the only time I can say I've comfortably levelled a tank was when WoW released Demon Hunter...but considering DH is a hero class and most content in WoW Retail is faceroll easy, I don't even think I can say i'm comfortable tanking with my DH in WoW (and that DH is my main, by the way).

Heck, a lot of games have released features which are best enjoyed as a DPS role (see: Maelstrom Arena, Horrific Visions of N'Zoth, etc. etc. etc.). I don't think I can remember the last time I've taken a tank/heal into one of those features and completed it with ease.

MEBengalsFan2001

ESO dungeon finder is a joke.

1) Q'd a vet Dungeon on my tank and in my group I got 3 other tanks
2) Q'd a vet Dungeon my healer and got kicked because I was not a DD to burn things down quickly
3) Q'd on my DD for Vet Random Dungeon and got a fake tank and fake healer for Fang Lair

I get similar experience all the time. The only time I typically don't run into issues like this is when I Q up with at least one other player. Even if we do get a fake support player or bad DD we both know we can play our roles and duo all level 1 and 2 dungeons on vet. As for DLC content if we get a fake support player we both jettison as we are tired of wasting our time in content.

As for normal dungeons that isn't a problem when I Q with at least one friend it's just an issue at times for Vet content.

ZOS_Volpe

Greetings,

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JanTanhide

Yeah, it happens. Normal non DLC dungeons not a big deal. Some DLC normal it is. Vet it usually is something to be concerned about.

Not long ago I PUGGED a run and our tank was a full blown Healer running Sanctuary. We didn't kick him/her, it was just too funny. And no, it wasn't Hircine's. He/she was running dual resto staves. I asked why not just queue as a Healer since it pops quickly and the response was "It's just a normal dungeon". LOL. Indeed it was.

Sailor_Palutena

If I get pushed into a DLC dungeon and see a fake tank or fake healer or even too low cp, I just do an Abe Simpson. Not going to waste my time, especially if I have XP buff running.

Indoril_Nerevar

Sailor_Palutena wrote: »

If I get pushed into a DLC dungeon and see a fake tank or fake healer or even too low cp, I just do an Abe Simpson. Not going to waste my time, especially if I have XP buff running.

Sange13

The problem isn't the dungeon finder itself--it's people trying to abuse it. When you see fakes, call them out. If the group won't kick them, just port out and go afk farm some plants/ore until they do something about it. Either way, you'll be in your next run soon enough.

Other solutions would be to form your own group from friends/guild/zone or to play those roles properly yourself (and as self-sufficiently as possible so that you can carry a fake if you feel like it).

Sange13

kichwas wrote: »

I think a lot of this 'fake roles' issue is people queing into a normal and finding someone not on an Officially Alcast Approved Build™... or still leveling... and deciding that's a "fake build".

Every now and then I will see something like a tank that has no taunt skill... or a healer that never casts any kind of heal... but these are super rare.

But especially in normal dungeons I see a lot of people who are below 3-million CP, and not running Alcast Builds...

That's really not the issue. I haven't seen that anywhere even once. Pretty sure this is just your own flawed perception.

idk

Sailor_Palutena wrote: »

If I get pushed into a DLC dungeon and see a fake tank or fake healer or even too low cp, I just do an Abe Simpson. Not going to waste my time, especially if I have XP buff running.

LOL.

A while back I used to queue as a tank to help the GF. As soon as I zoned into one dungeon I had a vote to kick window. The healer had initiated a vote to kick a CP160 player. We balked at the idea of voting to kick before killing a single NPC.

The healer dropped. LOL.

We went on to 3 man the vet dungeon and finished the last boss on HM with that CP 160 player and laughed at how pathetic that healer was to bail so quickly. I know players that as a healer at CP 160 out DPSed two CP capped players in dungeons. CP means so little.

Sange13

It's true that Player > Build/CP to an extent, but I usually don't appreciate low CPs in my vets unless I know they came from another platform where they were already higher CP. It's just a matter of odds--lower CP means lower odds of a competent player.

robertthebard

Sange13 wrote: »

It's true that Player > Build/CP to an extent, but I usually don't appreciate low CPs in my vets unless I know they came from another platform where they were already higher CP. It's just a matter of odds--lower CP means lower odds of a competent player.

How incompetent were you when you were low CP?

Glurin

Sange13 wrote: »

It's true that Player > Build/CP to an extent, but I usually don't appreciate low CPs in my vets unless I know they came from another platform where they were already higher CP. It's just a matter of odds--lower CP means lower odds of a competent player.

Not necessarily. I find that as often as not the high CP player is using his CP to cover his incompetence. If you can kill the boss in three seconds, people probably won't notice that you don't know how to dodge.

Sarannah

Dungeonfinder does not need to change. It is true that it is annoying when players queue as fake roles, but overall players are their actual roles.

PS: For those tying CP to how competent a player is: You can't do this, as any character, even fresh level 50's with level 40 gear on will show as CP 810. Not to mention, not everyone is as good on all their characters as they are on some of their other characters.

Septimus_Magna

Sarannah wrote: »

Dungeonfinder does not need to change. It is true that it is annoying when players queue as fake roles, but overall players are their actual roles.

PS: For those tying CP to how competent a player is: You can't do this, as any character, even fresh level 50's with level 40 gear on will show as CP 810. Not to mention, not everyone is as good on all their characters as they are on some of their other characters.

I agree to some extend, yes there will always be good and bad players, regards of the amount of CP they have.

In general I think there's no benefit for either side to put CP160 and CP810 players in the same group. The CP160 might not know all the mechanics and take their time to figure everything out, the CP810 player will probably have done the content multiple times and just wants to clear the dungeon quickly.

In most cases I think it would be beneficial to split players up based on their CP.
You can still group up manually with anyone so its not like you wont be able to run with guild members for example.
Tier 1: 0-300 CP
Tier 2: 301-600 CP
Tier 3: 601-810 CP
Tier 4: 811+ CP

Speaking from personal experience, I have most fun when the group is around my own skill level.
I dont want to feel like I am constantly carrying someone or being carried to complete the content.
It could also help reduce the toxic aspect between low and high CP players because its a gradual transition.

GreasyDave

Twilanthe wrote: »

I see this a lot too.

To be honest, in regular dungeons 4 DPS can run it just fine. Some boss fights might really require a healer, even if its a DPS build with a resto staff back bar or something, but otherwise it isn't a big deal, at least in regular dungeons. I haven't gotten to vet dungeons yet so I don't know if the issue is more of a problem there, or if it's also pretty much a cake walk.

What I've seen recently though is me and my friend will queue and get into a dungeon, and automatically there will be a vote to kick one of us. I'm not sure what is going on here, and why it is happening, but it's been happening a lot recently. (By a lot I mean maybe once every 10 runs or so?). Naturally we don't kick each other, and this always ends up in the other two dropping the group. Does anyone know what is up with that? I can't figure out what the purpose might be.

Let me explain why I vote to kick people in your situation.
First, I don't mind people running 4 dd groups -but they should ask the group first if that's OK. IF I queue for a pug I expect folks to be doing the role they queued for.
I run normals too when I'm levelling up a new toon. in these situations, if I queue as a tank, I will taunt and tank. I expect the healer to heal me. I might have 800+cp but my level 15 tank doesn't. My tank needs to be healed. IF you queued as a healer and won't heal - I'll vote to kick.

Same if I've queued as a DD or a healer. If the tank is a dd and isn't taunting - i vote to kick. If I'm dding or healing and the Boss decides to focus attack on me, I'm low level -ai can't survive too many direct boss attacks - then I expect the tank to be taking aggro and letting me do my job. IF the healer isn't healing in this situation -but dealing damage - then I vote to kick them too.
It's basic politeness, you might think that the dungeon is easy and you think you can do it as 4 dd's, fine - but other players are expecting something different.

xiZeroPointix

I have played the game for many years now and fake roles were not a thing in the past. This was due to player respect and how the game and community viewed healers and especially tanks. This current time period in the game due to changes by the dev team and community views towards support roles has been toxic. The game rewards damage dealers and roles that kill far more than support roles. This has shifted the support roles to the wayside. This results in far less support roles in game and huge wait times for tanks and healers. They have been pushed out of the game because the lack of respect and the thankless people who depend on them. Even now this next patch has gutted tankiness. It may or may not effect pve tanking,but nonetheless. Fake roles have been brought about due to the fixity towards support roles and them therefore switching to do’s roles. If you don’t want fake roles, roll out a tank or healer and be the solution instead of complaining on the forums.

Sange13

Sange13 wrote: »

It's just a matter of odds--lower CP means lower odds of a competent player.

Since people missed the point, just have to reiterate what I was getting at here.

CleymenZero

I think the general rule is that if you PUG, be ready.

The "be ready" doesn't simply apply to the so-called fake healer/tank but also to the user complaining. It's a PUG!

I've seen fake tanks and fake heals and I don't mind as long as stuff burns down fast.

The thing with the fake heal or tank is that they might genuinely be trying to do their role but just don't know so you will say it's a fake x or y but all I see is a person that has a lot to learn.

And what the hell is this with the fake healer or tank complaints? You never see complaints about fake DPS yet there are many who queue as DPS and I can out-DPS them on my tank... They're not fake either, they don't know how to DPS.

There should be a disclaimer when you PUG...

robertthebard

Sange13 wrote: »

Sange13 wrote: »

It's just a matter of odds--lower CP means lower odds of a competent player.

Since people missed the point, just have to reiterate what I was getting at here.

Nope, I didn't miss it at all, and my query remains unanswered. Let me venture a guess:

This position of course doesn't include you, because you're such an elite player that you're excluded from any such nonsense.

Tell me, though, before CP, how did you judge competence?

CleymenZero wrote: »

I think the general rule is that if you PUG, be ready.

The "be ready" doesn't simply apply to the so-called fake healer/tank but also to the user complaining. It's a PUG!

I've seen fake tanks and fake heals and I don't mind as long as stuff burns down fast.

The thing with the fake heal or tank is that they might genuinely be trying to do their role but just don't know so you will say it's a fake x or y but all I see is a person that has a lot to learn.

And what the hell is this with the fake healer or tank complaints? You never see complaints about fake DPS yet there are many who queue as DPS and I can out-DPS them on my tank... They're not fake either, they don't know how to DPS.

There should be a disclaimer when you PUG...

I'm still of the considered opinion that, if one wants to control who is or isn't in their groups, they can just avoid PuGs altogether. Unless, of course, there's a reason they aren't welcome in static groups? Maybe they got kicked for being a fake x?

svendf

xiZeroPointix wrote: »

I have played the game for many years now and fake roles were not a thing in the past. This was due to player respect and how the game and community viewed healers and especially tanks. This current time period in the game due to changes by the dev team and community views towards support roles has been toxic. The game rewards damage dealers and roles that kill far more than support roles. This has shifted the support roles to the wayside. This results in far less support roles in game and huge wait times for tanks and healers. They have been pushed out of the game because the lack of respect and the thankless people who depend on them. Even now this next patch has gutted tankiness. It may or may not effect pve tanking,but nonetheless. Fake roles have been brought about due to the fixity towards support roles and them therefore switching to do’s roles. If you don’t want fake roles, roll out a tank or healer and be the solution instead of complaining on the forums.

This ! Roled out a tank and two healer´s and a 3rd underway. I believe a very little group of player´s in this community want the support role gone - it´s just a few loud screamer´s, who need dps help running content.

just wanted to bump this very fine post.