ZOS, please revert the changes to Battle Spirit (Alternatives provided therein)

killingspreeb16_ESO · May 2020

Galarthor wrote: »

No that's not the same thing, they are not becoming weaker.
You might be able to use them less often, but their srength remains the same.
You just don't have an unfair and imbalanced advantage that you should not have in CP either.

Losing your unfair cost advantage does not change how shields and heals become weaker in nonCP (look at tooltips) while dodge roll still mitigates 100% of the damage without ever having to invest a single attribute point or set bonus into it.

You can keep say this but roll dodge(and block too) is weaker in no-cp like shield are.

Again you can't do a 1:1 comparison on two different defensive mechanics.

Dodge roll will always dodge 100% dmg if the skill can be dodged but at the same time there are skill that can't be dodged and you take 100% of the dmg.CP make dodge roll cost less so in no-cp roll dodge is weaker because you can't use it as often which mean youre defense and sustain are affected by not having any cp bonus.

Damage shield in CP get stronger in number size because they are just an extra layer of health,there is no way to ignore a dmg shield like you can do with dodge,you will get always get the value of a shield unlike dodge where is not guaranteed.

If you want to keep to feign ignorance on this matter be it but that's don't change the fact that both block/dodge are weaker in no-cp like damage shield are.

Just two different mechanics can't be compared in the same way,they both get weaker in different ways.

Galarthor · May 2020

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

No that's not the same thing, they are not becoming weaker.
You might be able to use them less often, but their srength remains the same.
You just don't have an unfair and imbalanced advantage that you should not have in CP either.

Losing your unfair cost advantage does not change how shields and heals become weaker in nonCP (look at tooltips) while dodge roll still mitigates 100% of the damage without ever having to invest a single attribute point or set bonus into it.

But it doesnt mitigate 100% of the dmg done.

If there where skills they simply ignored shields or block then that would be the same thing. But there isnt.

There no way for shields as a form of protection to get ignored.

Sure and that's why it is not your only line of defense. But for what damage it mitigates, it always mitigates 100%. And there is stuff that goes through shields but not through dodge, for example: debuffs, stuns, snares, roots, some Oblivion Damage. Dodge Roll is not 100% immune against these, but a large number of them can be dodged. And taking damage from an AoE can be far less detrimental than getting stunned.

Lord_Eomer · May 2020

60% nerf was long awaited! no need to rollback, too much healing in this game is always an issue.

Galarthor · May 2020

@killingspreeb16_ESO again:
Shields get buffed in CP b/c damage gets buffed in CP. Both effects cancel each other out. If you are able to absorb 1 Dizzying Swing with your shield in NonCP you will be able to absorb 1 Dizzying Swing with your shield in CP - that is ofc CPs are apporpriately and proportionally distributed. The effect cancel out.

Now if you can dodge 1 Dizzying Swing in NonCP, you will be able to dodge 1/(1-CPcostreduction) which is > 1 Dizzying Swing in CP. However, it should only be 1. Citing this imbalance to argue that dodge roll is weaker and suffers the same as shields do in non CP is flawed reasoning.

Besides, there is a reason people under pressure, even magicka builds, spam dodge roll and not shields. Dodge Roll is the single most powerful mitigation tool in the game. If shields were so great, stamina builds would invest into shields like magicka builds are invest into dodge rolls right now. Which ofc they don't b/c dodge roll far outperforms shields in both mitigation when under pressure and avoidance of stuns, roots, snares, debuffs. In addition dodge rolls can be used in animation canceling, shields can't ... and neither can any other magicka mitigation tools.

killingspreeb16_ESO · May 2020

Galarthor wrote: »

@killingspreeb16_ESO again:
Shields get buffed in CP b/c damage gets buffed in CP. Both effects cancel each other out. If you are able to absorb 1 Dizzying Swing with your shield in NonCP you will be able to absorb 1 Dizzying Swing with your shield in CP - that is ofc CPs are apporpriately and proportionally distributed. The effect cancel out.

Now if you can dodge 1 Dizzying Swing in NonCP, you will be able to dodge 1/(1-CPcostreduction) which is > 1 Dizzying Swing in CP. However, it should only be 1. Citing this imbalance to argue that dodge roll is weaker and suffers the same as shields do in non CP is flawed reasoning.

Besides, there is a reason people under pressure, even magicka builds, spam dodge roll and not shields. Dodge Roll is the single most powerful mitigation tool in the game. If shields were so great, stamina builds would invest into shields like magicka builds are invest into dodge rolls right now. Which ofc they don't b/c dodge roll far outperforms shields in both mitigation when under pressure and avoidance of stuns, roots, snares, debuffs. In addition dodge rolls can be used in animation canceling, shields can't ... and neither can any other magicka mitigation tools.

They both get weaker period.

Not sure why you want to argue this,if in cp i can roll 15 time and still have more stamina left than rolling 10 time in no-cp then without that cp is clear that roll dodge become weaker in no-cp.

yes roll dodge mitigate 100% of the dmg on both cp or no cp because that's what supposed to do at the same time if a skill can't be dodged you take 100% of the dmg cp or not.

You keep to use the mitigation/number vlaue of shield as comparison to the dodge which is wrong,dmg get stronger with cp and so it's defense but bastion like tumbling(or shadow ward for block) are just extra buff to a character defense.

Your example of dizzy against shield is also wrong.

Master at arms will increase the dmg of dizzy while ironclad will reduce the dmg you take from dizzy with those two you can say it cancel out and then you have bastion to increase the shield size and this does not cancel out because people will not invest in shattering blow like a magika build will in bastion.
You can also say the reason that cp let you roll dodge more is because since sustain and stat pool are bigger people can use more skill against you than no-cp before running low on resource.

To me this sound like the usual stamina>magika forum propaganda where stamina is always better than magika in every possible scenario no matter what the discussion is about and need to be nerfed but casually forget that class like magsorc are also at the top.

Galarthor · May 2020

Ok, let's talk CPs and their counterparts:
1) Master At Arm VS. Ironglad
2) Thaumaturge VS.Thick Skinned
3) Elemental Expert VS. Elemental Defender
4) Mighty VS. Hardy
5) Spell Erosion VS. Spell Shield
6) Staff Expert , Physical Weapon Expert VS. Expert Defender
7) Elfborn , Precise Strikes VS. Resitant
8) Piercing VS. Light Armor Focus , Medium Armor Focus , Heavy Armor Focus (way to *** hybrid builds)
9) Bastion VS. Shattering Blows
10) Arcanist , Mooncalf , Healthy VS. Siphoner

Then there is that weird crap with Healing, which has some sort of a counter but neither directly nor completely:
11) Befoul is supposed to be the counter to Blessed and Quick Recovery, which ofc does not really work b/c Blessed and Quick Recovery provide way more extra healing than Befoul reduces healing. But at least there is something, even though it is not balanced.

Then there those with no counter, but they also don't really need any b/c all builds benefit the same from them and they don't direct affect the damage dealt or taken or the mitigation:
12) Warlord
13) Tenacity
14) Shade

And then we have the gifts from ZOS to stamina builds:
15) Tumbling
16) Shadow Ward
17) Bashing Focus
18) Sprinter

Feel free to explain to me how these things are countered in the CP system? I don't see any CPs offsetting these, especially since the other CPs already all "partnered up" to cancel each other out!

The fact that people don't invest into a CP that is a 1:1 conterpart of another CP is no valid arguement. You have that conter available, whether you use it or not is your decision. Same as it's your own fault when you don't invest into Ironglad or Thick Skinned.

And the arguement "CP reduce cost for dodge rolls, b/c in CP you have a larger resource pool and higher sustain allowing you to cast more shields and heals" is equally flawed and invalid. The higher resource pool and sustain by themselves already allow you to use dodge roll more often, just like it does for shields and heals.

killingspreeb16_ESO · May 2020

The fact that people don't invest into a CP that is a 1:1 conterpart of another CP is no valid arguement.

They don't invest in it because would be only good vs X type of build and not overall.
Also youre going to lose damage from another source so i don't even know if you will be able to do more damage to shielded target.

And the arguement "CP reduce cost for dodge rolls, b/c in CP you have a larger resource pool and higher sustain allowing you to cast more shields and heals" is equally flawed and invalid. The higher resource pool and sustain by themselves already allow you to use dodge roll more often, just like it does for shields and heals.

No i was saying that you get roll dodge reduced cost because since people can use more dmg skill against you,so you would need to dodge more than in no-cp,i was not talking about specifically about shields or heal.(and both of them become stronger anyway)

Feel free to explain to me how these things are countered in the CP system? I don't see any CPs offsetting these, especially since the other CPs already all "partnered up" to cancel each other out!

Not sure how we came from dodge roll/block become weaker in no-cp like damage shield and then talk about the cp system as whole.

But people have more stat>people can use more offensive ability against you>you need to roll more to not die that's it.
With shield instead since they are just an extra hp bar you need more number on them to not die and that's it.
One get better with reduced cost the other in number size.
Also the counter of block/dodge are in the game not on cp tree you are still trying to compare them 1:1.

I don't see how it's hard to accept the fact that both are weaker in no-cp and both get better with cp beside pushing the "but stamina" in every possible discussion?
Not every stamina build/class is OP,yeah warden/necro are stronger than they should but templar both mag/stam are good,magsorc is good stam dk is good,it's not like every magika build is trash and stamina is god mode.

And magika build are actually good in a group like in BG for example,better than many stamina build around,maybe not at low mmr(where things are too random) but before the reset of the mmr magsorc,madplar and magden where actually good in BG even a magnecro or magdk where both not bad only magblade after all the nerf become terrible to play in a BG.(beside maybe full healer)

MincVinyl · May 2020

Lord_Eomer wrote: »

60% nerf was long awaited! no need to rollback, too much healing in this game is always an issue.

The issue is that groups of players become near unkillable at a certain point because of the shear amount of healing via group numbers. This change does not solve the issue of a group's tankiness getting stronger per person in the group. Groups will hardly feel the change, but solo and small man teams will feel it much more now.

relentless_turnip · May 2020

I have tested this on the PTS and I'd say in cp this change is fine and works well to lower overall healing power. You feel it a lot more in no cp though...

I would prefer it didn't effect no cp PvP as I think healing is actually fine there. Cross healing is still the biggest issue effecting all pvp IMO.

lucky_Sage · May 2020

I think it’s a good start changes the battle spirit % I would think this could be tweaked easily to even in a minor patch