ZOS, please revert the changes to Battle Spirit (Alternatives provided therein)

Sneaky-Snurr

Reducing heals by 60% will not solve the whole 'unkillable tanks' issue as well as narrowing the ceiling-floor gap especially in CP PvP. No-CP PvP has no problems with such issue as those so-called tanks are non-existent.
See, players who don't have great heals to start with will be worse off and they'll be the first to cry for even more nerfs. This neverending cycle of nerfs has been going on ever since Battle Spirit was first introduced with 25% healing reduction initially without actually addressing the core problem. If the blanket nerf goes through, then solo players and small scale plays will be worse off than ever while zerg and ballgroups will not be affected in any way whatsoever.

Problem:
People say that heals are too strong which is partially true but not actually the main issue.
a) Respectfully, @ZOS_BrianWheeler, the main culprit behind all this originates from all those %-based damage mitigation Major & Minor buffs/debuffs (Protection, Maim, etc.) with an apparent lack of counters to them available; eg. Major Protection & Minor Protection/Maim alone will have provided easy ~45% dmg mitigation across the board. No-CP PvP has been the most balanced it has ever been in a long time (barring a few glaring issues which won't be discussed here).
b) Cross heals from allies/foreign source which has no penalty in any form whatsoever. Compound this problem with (you guessed it) Major & Minor Vitality/Mending buffs ever so readily available and again with so little counters to it (DoTs and Major & Minor Defile). This is different from self-healing as it is currently in a good place.

Suggestions:
My suggestions are simple with one focus, to alter PvP mechanics without affecting PvE as a whole.
Through Battle Spirit;
1.0 Limit the number of cross heals received from players.
1.1 Reduce the amount of heals by x% (say 50%? Standardise with the current 50% healing reduction through Battle Spirit) a player can receive from 'foreign' heal sources (ie. anything other than self-initiated heals).
Maybe a limit to 1.0 & 1.1 ie. how many can be stacked on a player too. That will nerf zergs and ball groups effectively since there's only so much heals a player can receive.

2. CP adjustments;
Disable CP PvP. Make PvP strictly a No-CP affair. That way, a huge aspect of PvE will be left separately to that of PvP.

3. %-based damage mitigation buff adjustments;
Reduce the %-based buffs ie. Major and Minor Protection by half in PvP through Battle Spirit (this includes ALL Major/Minor %-based buffs and debuffs as well). Sets that give 5-10% dmg reduction from players nerfed by half through Battle Spirit too.

Cc: @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_RichLambert


For an in-depth explanation of my justifications for these suggestions, kindly refer to all my replies in this thread: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/521939/so-is-everyone-going-to-ignore-battle-spirit-changes-which-is-uncalled-for/p1

Elusiin

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

2. CP adjustments;
Disable CP PvP. Make PvP strictly a No-CP affair. That way, a huge aspect of PvE will be left separately to that of PvP.

You would kill 1vX in Cyrodil and all content creators for the game would be upset.

I agree cross healing should be the target of the nerf, not further healing reduction (or damage shield buffing if you wanna look at it that way lol).

Sneaky-Snurr

@Elusiin
Respectfully, I'm not particularly sure about that.
I see 1vX fights all the time in no-CP. Content creators only make up a small group of the whole community anyways and they should presumably have no problem adapting to no-CP environment.
If not, well... git gud..? ;P

Galarthor

1.0: limit the number of cross heals. That is going to put a huge strain on the server and/or client to constantly keep track who is getting how many heals in those big fights. It's already laggy enough.

1.1: again, way too complicated and resource-intensive. Just make AOE heals in general less potent. It's not like PvE healers are currently performing at the limit. Most content, even DLC-HM, can be done without a healer. So a nerf to the AoE heals will not break PvE healers at all. Besides, if they can't heal the entire group at once with just a single ability they will have to focus more on healing and less on dealing damage. Limiting cross healing in PvE would also have the added benefit that healers might actually become useful again outside of vet (HM) Trials.

2: if people wanted to play without CP, they would all flock to the no-CP campaigns. However, the CP campaigns remain the most prominent campaigns.

3: You are on the right track, but your idea is too complicated again. Why grant a bonus and then cut it in half. Just half the set bonus. It's not like Player Damage reduction is a valid bonus for PvE. Besides, it's not the single sets that are causing the issue, but the fact that you can stack the passive mitigations and the high uptime.

4: Stop blaming it on PvP. Most of the crappy changes come from PvE b/c people are unwilling to put effort into improving and thus fail to clear content. That's why everything is constantly being nerfed. Look at the entire discussion about the skill gap and people not being able to complete certain content. ZOS doesn't really care about PvP. There is no money in PvP players. ZOS is targeting new who buy the game, DLCs, and blow some money on the crown store. And you don't lure new players to an MMO like ESO with PvP but with PvE content.

killingspreeb16_ESO

Agree especially on cp-pvp, if they want to keep that trash pvp then balance battle spirit for no-cp and cp-pvp in different ways(atleast until cp-rework),tired of no-cp get always *** for the CP system.

@Galarthor on pc eu the no-cp campain is always in a good shape like the cp-one,also many people play on cp-pvp because it's easier to survive with all the extra stat,regen and cost reduction.

Sneaky-Snurr

Galarthor wrote: »

1.0: limit the number of cross heals. That is going to put a huge strain on the server and/or client to constantly keep track who is getting how many heals in those big fights. It's already laggy enough.

1.1: again, way too complicated and resource-intensive. Just make AOE heals in general less potent. It's not like PvE healers are currently performing at the limit. Most content, even DLC-HM, can be done without a healer. So a nerf to the AoE heals will not break PvE healers at all. Besides, if they can't heal the entire group at once with just a single ability they will have to focus more on healing and less on dealing damage. Limiting cross healing in PvE would also have the added benefit that healers might actually become useful again outside of vet (HM) Trials.

2: if people wanted to play without CP, they would all flock to the no-CP campaigns. However, the CP campaigns remain the most prominent campaigns.

3: You are on the right track, but your idea is too complicated again. Why grant a bonus and then cut it in half. Just half the set bonus. It's not like Player Damage reduction is a valid bonus for PvE. Besides, it's not the single sets that are causing the issue, but the fact that you can stack the passive mitigations and the high uptime.

4: Stop blaming it on PvP. Most of the crappy changes come from PvE b/c people are unwilling to put effort into improving and thus fail to clear content. That's why everything is constantly being nerfed. Look at the entire discussion about the skill gap and people not being able to complete certain content. ZOS doesn't really care about PvP. There is no money in PvP players. ZOS is targeting new who buy the game, DLCs, and blow some money on the crown store. And you don't lure new players to an MMO like ESO with PvP but with PvE content.

@Galarthor
1.0 I can see why you're saying this. It's reminiscent to the old AoE cap issue all those years back. But what I mean by the limit is any healing received must be taken in/calculated based on first-come, first-serve basis. Which means a player will only get, for example, a max foreign heal source count of 3 or 2. Doesn't matter if they come from group mates or pug heals and doesn't matter if the other heals are greater than what you're receiving at one point in time. What you get first is what the server will register and keep in its memory.
I figure those would put some strain on the servers but nothing too extreme. In the end, you and I both know that ZOS is long overdue for server upgrades now.

1.1 I figured this would impose waay less strain on the server. It works similar, if not identical, to Battle Spirit healing reduction. Just that this comes in the form of foreign healing reduction by 50%. An easy 'fix' tbh.

If your premises on 1.0 & 1.1 both are attributed to server strains, then ZOS have to step up their game and upgrade no? Why must us players have to take the brunt of nerfs when there are plenty of upgrades available in the market.

2: A very fair point. However, I feel that CP players don't even give no-CP a try. Which is sad because no-CP is where I feel it's more rewarding and intense. However. I agree on your point.

3 & 4: Again, how is this different from the healing reduction passive via Battle Spirit? Also, do note that I meant for suggestion 3. to be implemented through Battle Spirit.
And actually, I am right with you there about PvE competency but this affects PvEr sentiments too so to do this right, we have to find a middle ground. Which is why I don't want to touch any core mechanics in PvE (like nerfing Major Prot to 15% for instance, affecting both PvP/E) to avoid any unwanted outcry from PvErs.
Plus, it is generally safe to say that PvE pop is greater than PvP at any given time of the day.

iCaliban

Battle spirit changes should have effected block costs. Not healing. Sword and board is the problem and has been for years

MincVinyl

@Sneaky-Snurr Thank you for actually making a good thread aiming to help benefit the game

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Elusiin wrote: »

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

2. CP adjustments;
Disable CP PvP. Make PvP strictly a No-CP affair. That way, a huge aspect of PvE will be left separately to that of PvP.

You would kill 1vX in Cyrodil and all content creators for the game would be upset.

I agree cross healing should be the target of the nerf, not further healing reduction (or damage shield buffing if you wanna look at it that way lol).

One previously suggested option to aid the nocp aspect of the game is by granting the resource bonuses for slotting cp.

1vX in nocp has heavily declined over the years, with the one problem patch being the summerset>>murkmire era where almost all aspects of the fluid movement system in the game were *** with. Movement not only is key to LoS, but in a way it drastically hurts sustain(more sprinting/tanking/immunes/etc). What would really help nocp pvp would be increasing and adding more sources of snare immunity back to the 8sec that it was before(which after cast gives 7sec of fluid combat.) Since the game heavily favors ball groups(furthering lag) it is hard to sustain against 20+ players without cp with no counterplay available to snare/root spam (the zerg players in nocp know this, after a while the 20+ players will burn out your resources while you try to out maneuver them)

---

As for the healing issues I can see removing cross healing, sure, but i think going back to non stacking overtime effects would be the better option to get behind(both of which can be applied through battle spirit!!!!) Not only does stopping overtime effects from stacking help with healing issues, but also:

1 -class/ability diversity = if out of class over time effects cannot be stacked, we wont see metas like sloads+entropy+soul trap. We wont see one BIS morph for each ability since players will try to be as effective as possible(previously groups would have things like mutagens and rapid regens spread out). Class abilities suddenly become more important since only 1/6 the population could potentially conflict what you want to output.

2- Lag would be reduced. Currently as it stands the worst contributers in order from least to most calculations per gcd(1 ability/button press) is:
single target<dots<aoe<aoe+dot
Now this is in general, but the worst contenders are the persistant dots(note additional debuffs further worsen these effects). The seige change that brought meatbags into meta actually hurt the game a lot since it leaves a persistent aoe dot+effect.

3- 1vX and small man comes back, a group of 30 cant just run down 1 player all stacking ranged dots (again sloads+entropy+soul trap). Individual skill is favored with this change instead of winning solely through numbers abusing minimal/no counterplay suffocation mechanics. Since 10 rapid regens cannot be on one target that is blocking with brp weapons players cannot hide in their safe space 20 man ball group without a care in the world. It might seem unfair that some players will inevitably contribute nothing in some scenarios, but should we really be rewarding players for existing like it is their zos given divine right? Why should the guy spamming poison inject and light attacks in a 40 man group who doesn't even know if he is even hitting the right target be catered to....not everyone needs a trophy zos.

4- Avoids Cross healing's biggest issue The biggest thing people will bring up is the good ole "What if I happen to leave my zerg and want to heal a pug off on his own, it is stupid that i wouldn't be able to heal them!?!? qq" With the non stacking over times we could still achieve the group heal cuts we need/want, without hurting small man or "random" player encounters outside of zergs/group-play

Galarthor

@Sneaky-Snurr the difference is in the number of calculations the game has to run.

Let's you have a healing ability that heals for 100. You (ZOS) are convinced it is healing too much and thus needs a 20% nerf.

If you nerf the ability directly: whenever you use the ability, the game will look up the amount the ability heals and adds it to your current HP => HP_new = HP_old + 80

If you nerf the ability indirectly via a modifier: whenever you use the ability, the game will look up the amount the ability heals, then has to check whether to multiplier actually applies in this situation, and if so, multiply your healing amount by that multiplier => HP_new = HP_old + Multiplier * 100

Both times you heal for 80 in the end. But the latter requires at least 1 additional calculation and 1 additional step. That adds up quickly given how many people there are in PvP and given how much cross healing there is. And server performance is already poor. Keep in mind, this is only a very simple example. In reality it's most likely more complex and will cause mutliple additional calculations and steps, increasing the lag even further.

Galarthor

killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »

Agree especially on cp-pvp, if they want to keep that trash pvp then balance battle spirit for no-cp and cp-pvp in different ways(atleast until cp-rework),tired of no-cp get always *** for the CP system.

@Galarthor on pc eu the no-cp campain is always in a good shape like the cp-one,also many people play on cp-pvp because it's easier to survive with all the extra stat,regen and cost reduction.

Well, non-CP favors stamina builds and they are already overperforming compared to magicka builds. For example, shields and heals are weaker, but dodge and block remain as effective as in CP. Also, magicka builds are struggling far more with sustain / regen than stamina builds are. Non-CP only exacerbates this problem. Then there is the issue of the heavy armor stamina damage sets which have no magicka counterpart. The additional survivability stam builds get from wearing heavy armor weighs much higher in nonCP than in CP, b/c the realtive difference is higher (a difference of 5k resistences weighs more heavily if everybody has 10k resistences as opposed to if everybody has 30k resistences).

And as long as ZOS is not willing to address this overperformance of stamina builds in PvP, this won't change and CP campaigns will remain the favorit.

Also, one of the big reasons why nonCP has such high populations on PC EU is b/c the raids went there b/c the CP campaigns were too laggy due to the high populations and number of other raids (which made it harder to farm AP).

MincVinyl

@Galarthor Ideally it would be nice to just get rid of one more unnecessary modifier and change the rest of the problem elsewhere, but on the off chance any of this gets looked at the solution would have to be a simple change that does not touch pve.

Wuuffyy

Lol. Find it funny how the players “figured it out” after six years of riding the nerf train on top of everything (looking at you NB). I’m SURE THIS IS IT XD

idk

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

2. CP adjustments;
Disable CP PvP. Make PvP strictly a No-CP affair. That way, a huge aspect of PvE will be left separately to that of PvP.

It seems that one main motive of this post is to make all PvP no-CP.

The issue with this suggestion is OP seems to ignore that the changes to battle spirit effect all PvP.

Kaghei

I would love non cp only PvP. Pvp has been broken since champion points have been introduced

MincVinyl

idk wrote: »

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

2. CP adjustments;
Disable CP PvP. Make PvP strictly a No-CP affair. That way, a huge aspect of PvE will be left separately to that of PvP.

It seems that one main motive of this post is to make all PvP no-CP.

The issue with this suggestion is OP seems to ignore that the changes to battle spirit effect all PvP.

No the point he is trying to make is that how cp is setup it is more efficient to stack defensive cp than offensive. In the end it just leads to prolonged fights compared to nocp pvp and it adds another layer of calculations that have to go through the servers, leaving players who continue to spam aoe dots/hots to go on the forums to complain about lag.

leepalmer95

idk wrote: »

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

2. CP adjustments;
Disable CP PvP. Make PvP strictly a No-CP affair. That way, a huge aspect of PvE will be left separately to that of PvP.

It seems that one main motive of this post is to make all PvP no-CP.

The issue with this suggestion is OP seems to ignore that the changes to battle spirit effect all PvP.

It would definetly help though.

Cp is far too strong for pvp. It what enables build to run around super tanky with high stats and 0 resource issues.

killingspreeb16_ESO

@Galarthor PC EU no-cp pvp had always good population as far i can remember and also if the game in pvp was only no-cp also the balance would be different and only for one game mode.
Now be it pvp or pve if something get nerfed because CP make it better than it should then no-cp get to suffer which is for me the main problem.

"For example, shields and heals are weaker, but dodge and block remain as effective as in CP."

Yeah is not like cp for cost reduction of block/roll exist right?
Thay are less effective aswell.

Let's stop this magika vs stamina,especially when in bg magika build are effective aswell.

John_Falstaff

Galarthor wrote: »

Limiting cross healing in PvE would also have the added benefit that healers might actually become useful again outside of vet (HM) Trials.

...and helpless in vet HM trials, like execute in vHoF HM. Some PvP people are just plain clueless about PvE, the biggest part of the game, and yes, all problems of ESO stem from PvP. It'll be a great day when PvP will be removed from the game entirely, it adds nothing whatsoever.

iCaliban

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

Limiting cross healing in PvE would also have the added benefit that healers might actually become useful again outside of vet (HM) Trials.

...and helpless in vet HM trials, like execute in vHoF HM. Some PvP people are just plain clueless about PvE, the biggest part of the game, and yes, all problems of ESO stem from PvP. It'll be a great day when PvP will be removed from the game entirely, it adds nothing whatsoever.

Reading before commenting would be helpful so you look less foolish. The proposed changes would be done via battlespirit.

Its almost like clueless pver's just look for an excuse to feel superior

MincVinyl

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

Limiting cross healing in PvE would also have the added benefit that healers might actually become useful again outside of vet (HM) Trials.

...and helpless in vet HM trials, like execute in vHoF HM. Some PvP people are just plain clueless about PvE, the biggest part of the game, and yes, all problems of ESO stem from PvP. It'll be a great day when PvP will be removed from the game entirely, it adds nothing whatsoever.

One of the biggest draws to the game originally was the tri faction pvp. Removing cross healing between different groups of players would not affect trial groups at all, because they are all in the same group. Besides pve plays no part in a discussion about battlespirit so idk what galarthor is talking about, no need to freak out.

I can say the same for pve aswell, it adds nothing but more rng based drops to grind the same stale content. The way i see it, mechanics wise nothing is stunning or gamebreaking about pve. Half of the pve in the game has just become one shot mechanics that are boring as ***. Most builds just run the same Bis abilities/weapons so not even that is fun and challenging, besides most pve groups i have seen will freak out if you try to break norms. If fighting mobs that stand still do not adapt and react to what you do against them so be it.

*edit* Not saying that half of the people in pvp dont just stand still and let you parse on them, but still

Everyone is allowed their opinions, doesn't change the fact that we all payed for the game and the content in it, personally even as a pvp player I have probably spent around $750-$1k on the game over the years.

kyle.wilson

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

@Elusiin
Respectfully, I'm not particularly sure about that.
I see 1vX fights all the time in no-CP. Content creators only make up a small group of the whole community anyways and they should presumably have no problem adapting to no-CP environment.
If not, well... git gud..? ;P

For PCNA the reason you see nocp 1VX is because many people there don't run CC's
I ran into 1 guy repeatedly and killed him in a few seconds solo, but then watched him fight 5 people endlessly till I cc'd him.

Galarthor

killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »

@Galarthor PC EU no-cp pvp had always good population as far i can remember and also if the game in pvp was only no-cp also the balance would be different and only for one game mode.
Now be it pvp or pve if something get nerfed because CP make it better than it should then no-cp get to suffer which is for me the main problem.

"For example, shields and heals are weaker, but dodge and block remain as effective as in CP."

Yeah is not like cp for cost reduction of block/roll exist right?
Thay are less effective aswell.

Let's stop this magika vs stamina,especially when in bg magika build are effective aswell.

The strength of block and dodge is unaffected by CP. The fact that stamina builds get preferential treatment in the CP system does not change the fact heals and shields become weaker in nonCP while block and cloak don't.

At the PvEer complaining above:
Limiting and removing cross healing are 2 different things. Besides, cross healing is almost never really needed anywhere. It just causes problems in PvP and causes healers to become basically useless in (most) pve content. So why not remove the issue of cross healing and adjust what little content that actually require cross healing instead of keeping a system in the game that pretty much ruins everything else outside these few rare occassions?

Besides, now that the lag even crept into PvE, you should be glad for every AoE and Cross Heal fewer that is being used as they are the main drivers of lag.

leepalmer95

Galarthor wrote: »

killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »

@Galarthor PC EU no-cp pvp had always good population as far i can remember and also if the game in pvp was only no-cp also the balance would be different and only for one game mode.
Now be it pvp or pve if something get nerfed because CP make it better than it should then no-cp get to suffer which is for me the main problem.

"For example, shields and heals are weaker, but dodge and block remain as effective as in CP."

Yeah is not like cp for cost reduction of block/roll exist right?
Thay are less effective aswell.

Let's stop this magika vs stamina,especially when in bg magika build are effective aswell.

The strength of block and dodge is unaffected by CP. The fact that stamina builds get preferential treatment in the CP system does not change the fact heals and shields become weaker in nonCP while block and cloak don't.

At the PvEer complaining above:
Limiting and removing cross healing are 2 different things. Besides, cross healing is almost never really needed anywhere. It just causes problems in PvP and causes healers to become basically useless in (most) pve content. So why not remove the issue of cross healing and adjust what little content that actually require cross healing instead of keeping a system in the game that pretty much ruins everything else outside these few rare occassions?

Besides, now that the lag even crept into PvE, you should be glad for every AoE and Cross Heal fewer that is being used as they are the main drivers of lag.

Block and dodge are effected by cp? They cost a lot more in non cp?

MincVinyl

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »

@Galarthor PC EU no-cp pvp had always good population as far i can remember and also if the game in pvp was only no-cp also the balance would be different and only for one game mode.
Now be it pvp or pve if something get nerfed because CP make it better than it should then no-cp get to suffer which is for me the main problem.

"For example, shields and heals are weaker, but dodge and block remain as effective as in CP."

Yeah is not like cp for cost reduction of block/roll exist right?
Thay are less effective aswell.

Let's stop this magika vs stamina,especially when in bg magika build are effective aswell.

The strength of block and dodge is unaffected by CP. The fact that stamina builds get preferential treatment in the CP system does not change the fact heals and shields become weaker in nonCP while block and cloak don't.

At the PvEer complaining above:
Limiting and removing cross healing are 2 different things. Besides, cross healing is almost never really needed anywhere. It just causes problems in PvP and causes healers to become basically useless in (most) pve content. So why not remove the issue of cross healing and adjust what little content that actually require cross healing instead of keeping a system in the game that pretty much ruins everything else outside these few rare occassions?

Besides, now that the lag even crept into PvE, you should be glad for every AoE and Cross Heal fewer that is being used as they are the main drivers of lag.

Block and dodge are effected by cp? They cost a lot more in non cp?

If anything people should be more worried about break free cost in nocp for mag builds. Sprint isn't so bad since the changes. I would think people would ask for break free cost reduction in light armor instead of sprint.

killingspreeb16_ESO

Galarthor wrote: »

killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »

@Galarthor PC EU no-cp pvp had always good population as far i can remember and also if the game in pvp was only no-cp also the balance would be different and only for one game mode.
Now be it pvp or pve if something get nerfed because CP make it better than it should then no-cp get to suffer which is for me the main problem.

"For example, shields and heals are weaker, but dodge and block remain as effective as in CP."

Yeah is not like cp for cost reduction of block/roll exist right?
Thay are less effective aswell.

Let's stop this magika vs stamina,especially when in bg magika build are effective aswell.

The strength of block and dodge is unaffected by CP. The fact that stamina builds get preferential treatment in the CP system does not change the fact heals and shields become weaker in nonCP while block and cloak don't.

At the PvEer complaining above:
Limiting and removing cross healing are 2 different things. Besides, cross healing is almost never really needed anywhere. It just causes problems in PvP and causes healers to become basically useless in (most) pve content. So why not remove the issue of cross healing and adjust what little content that actually require cross healing instead of keeping a system in the game that pretty much ruins everything else outside these few rare occassions?

Besides, now that the lag even crept into PvE, you should be glad for every AoE and Cross Heal fewer that is being used as they are the main drivers of lag.

It is affected since they actually cost more without cp(are you a bit biased?)your sustain will be affected a lot.

Galarthor

Block and Dodge costing less in CP is just another preferential treatment of Stamina builds.
There is no such thing as a cost reduction on defensive tools for magicka builds. All you lose is a privilege. Block and Dodge remain as effective in nonCP as they were in CP.

And before you complain that if the cost was not reduced in the CP system, then there was nothing for stamina defenses in the CP system: block and dodge do not need adjustment in the CP system for the increased damage in a CP setting, since both are adjusted automatically. E.g. for dodge roll -100% damage is 0 damage taken, no matter if it's 1000 or 1000000 damage that is thrown at you.

killingspreeb16_ESO

Galarthor wrote: »

Block and Dodge costing less in CP is just another preferential treatment of Stamina builds.
There is no such thing as a cost reduction on defensive tools for magicka builds. All you lose is a privilege. Block and Dodge remain as effective in nonCP as they were in CP.

And before you complain that if the cost was not reduced in the CP system, then there was nothing for stamina defenses in the CP system: block and dodge do not need adjustment in the CP system for the increased damage in a CP setting, since both are adjusted automatically. E.g. for dodge roll -100% damage is 0 damage taken, no matter if it's 1000 or 1000000 damage that is thrown at you.

No youre just trying to do a 1:1 comparison on two defensive mechanics which is just plain wrong.

Magika shield get weaker in size instead for example dodge roll immunity frame is the same in both cp or no cp but without CP you can't use roll dodge as much(or use other skill aswell since it will eat your stamina away really fast),is night/day difference between rolling in cp or no cp.

The effectivness of rolling(and block) is reduced in no-cp like shield are weaker in no-cp.

I personally don't care about the cp system at all i wish it was removed( or totally reworked)and the game was balanced in another way,but roll dodge have it's counter so roll is not guaranted like the value of the shield.
A shield of 5k is going to protect you from 5k damage always no if or but,roll instead might give you 100% immunity on some skill or nothing if get countered.

Now i know there are more stamina build at the top of the food chain but is not like magplar or magsorc are weak let's stop this stamina>magika in every possible scenario.

Galarthor

Ofc you can dodge roll less in non-CP, but that b/c you got an imbalanced advantage in CP. The fact that you have this broken advantage in CP, does not mean you require compensation for not having it in nonCP.

In fact, it should not even be there in the CP system at all. The CP system is designed to balance itself. You can increase damage dealt by X% and in return you can increase your shield or heal size by X% and these 2 effects cancel each other out. There is no need for Dodge Roll CP b/c the increased damage from the CP system is already negated / canceled out by the 100% mitigation factor. Adding the cost reduction for Dodge Roll to the CP system only led to an imbalance in favor of stamina builds as there is no counter CP to it.

It's even worse than that for magicka builds, not only are the heal and shield buffing CPs canceled out by damage increasing CP, but they also have additional counters that directly target the shields and the healing done. But that is another issue.

killingspreeb16_ESO

Ofc you can dodge roll less in non-CP, but that b/c you got an imbalanced advantage in CP. The fact that you have this broken advantage in CP, does not mean you require compensation for not having it in nonCP.

But that's exactly why they are weaker like magic shield are and im not even saying that no-cp need a compensation,just pointing out that both rolldodge/block become weaker in no-cp like shield.

Galarthor

No that's not the same thing, they are not becoming weaker.
You might be able to use them less often, but their srength remains the same.
You just don't have an unfair and imbalanced advantage that you should not have in CP either.

Losing your unfair cost advantage does not change how shields and heals become weaker in nonCP (look at tooltips) while dodge roll still mitigates 100% of the damage without ever having to invest a single attribute point or set bonus into it.

leepalmer95

Galarthor wrote: »

No that's not the same thing, they are not becoming weaker.
You might be able to use them less often, but their srength remains the same.
You just don't have an unfair and imbalanced advantage that you should not have in CP either.

Losing your unfair cost advantage does not change how shields and heals become weaker in nonCP (look at tooltips) while dodge roll still mitigates 100% of the damage without ever having to invest a single attribute point or set bonus into it.

But it doesnt mitigate 100% of the dmg done.

If there where skills they simply ignored shields or block then that would be the same thing. But there isnt.

There no way for shields as a form of protection to get ignored.