Normalize the Races - Let Us Pick Our Racials, Rename Them Adventurer Skills

Lole · April 2020

Drammanoth wrote: »

Equality is BS. If one wants ALL races to have THE SAME racial traits, sooo... where's the variety? We choose a given race more on the basis of the traits they have (gameplay), and we know why they have them (lore).

Also, I do realise there are some average Joes who just play ESO to waste away their life. No RP, no fun - just wasting time "getting achievements" (because they haven't acheived much in real life).

My TOTALLY BLIND guess is that people got accustomed to being able to be just about any race and class by WoW. Yes, there were some limitations - mind you, *some* is the keyword here - but in general a Human, just like an Orc could have been a proficient rogue, mage, warlock, warrior etc. In latter expansions it got even more convoluted, as some races were allowed to be what they were not originally. In ESO you can be whichever race and class you want and succeed (or fail) on the basis of your choices.

What did you just say ? Wow races had just “some“ limitations ? Really ? Did you actually play the game ? An orc was a Better warrior then a human, and still is... and when you compare orc to other races that had no weapon spezialization it got even a bigger gap... especially in the early days of wow, if you wanted to be a warrior with an axe you went for orc for the axe speciality, axes had mostly lower weaponspeed wich also made axes mostly better than swords on warriors...oh ofc there was bloodfury for orca wich were not something you could ignore and had a decent impact on your bursts...

Not to mention pvp, orc had cc reduction and once again bloodfury wich in arena by itself could decide if your setup for a kill is going to work or fail...

Oldsxhool wow 98% of rogues were undead cuz of will of the forsaken

Even to the day now you have many top tier arena players hoping between human/ne and orc cuz Of racial benefits

Soooo pls don’t change anything... don’t wanna see any orc sorcs spamming force shock... makes no sense sry

Nanfoodle · April 2020

TES was always about choice mattering. Opening doors closed other doors. Killing NPCs sometimes had dire consequences. ESO needs more of this, not less.

xaraan · April 2020

I always thought the CP system should be less combat focused on more on flavor things for the game.

As in, you earn points to buy passives like the faster harvesting, or the arcane well, rando fun abilities like that.

BUT, one of the things I thought would be neat to add is something akin to a max level character in any RPG like game where they can ascend generic stats so to speak, maybe a sort of CHIM.

It would allow to have more fun with racial passives, you could have an option to mirror image them. So if you were a high elf stam build for example and wanted to buy this, it would make your key passive: max stam instead of max mag. Might offer the same racial variety that exists in ES games, but add a fun option to mix things up still.

Outside of that you could just use points to buy a substitute 'race' passives, like if you were that High Elf you could buy Orc passives instead. But I think that is more boring and takes the fun out of actually having racials matter. At least the previous idea allows for racials to matter.

newtinmpls · April 2020

peacenote wrote: »

The bottom line (to me) is that ESO shouldn't lose touch with its lore roots

This is one place that many of us agree - but where we go from there and how we implement it differs hugely.

I like individual merits/flaws for racials, however I would also accept

TankHealz2015 wrote:

Each race has 5 - 6 racial passive options that are all in sync with the lore. From those options you would choose 3 - 4.

This would allow players to make their characters more personalized. Enhance the role play/ identity aspects of the character creation process.

Things like as a dunmer you might have "do extra flame damage" or "resist flame damage" among your choices, but both would potentially relate to being dunmer.

And I still want classes dismantled and only "skill lines" but that's me.

Stx · April 2020

I'm with you on dismantling classes and only having skill lines. But that's only a dream lol

Nick_Balza · April 2020

It's not "The Elder Royal Rumble Online", which is focused on PvP. PvP here is an option. TESO is a casual game for exploration, lore and PvE first of all.

There is a bunch of other MMO for just slaughtering other players, where lore is absent or means nothing.

I don't want to see such stuff in ESO, because it will kill the whole point of the game.

Chilly-McFreeze · April 2020

How would this change strenghten build diversity? Everyone would just pick the meta passives for their role and be done with it. At least now your choice has consequences. You want to be a stam DK but also a breton? You can, but you have to take some drawbacks.

Lifting restrictions is what erases drawbacks and diversity. Be it racials or class lines. Without limitations a single meta would arise for every role. Now you at least have a different meta for each class-role combination.

Stx · April 2020

Yeah if they ever were to homogenize the races, adding racial choices would be pointless, better to just remove them entirely.

The Elder scrolls races have always had strengths and specializations, I just dont understand why it's such an issue now.

I think the best way to handle this is just to reduce the overall stats the racials provide. 2k stamina and 258 weapon damage for a racial is a bit much, that's basically 4 pieces of a set bonus in stats. Knock it down to 1k stam and 129 damage and call it a day.

Again, vote no for homogenization in an RPG. The day a breton warrior can stand toe to toe with an orc or a nord in battle is a sad day for Tamriel.

Xvorg · April 2020

vestahls wrote: »

If you care about the meta so much, then don't let aesthetics get in the way. And don't take away from one of the basic aspects of this game series, which is different racial pros and cons, because of your perceived "competitive" shortcomings.

If anything, I think the racials should be even more different and drastic. Ideally, Argonians should not be able to wear boots and closed helmets, because their bodies are too different to fit into normal armor. Same for Khajiit. ZOS is already being excessively generous imo.

There's a reason why Jobasha sold books instead of boots xD

newtinmpls · April 2020

Stx wrote: »

I'm with you on dismantling classes and only having skill lines. But that's only a dream lol

Hail fellow dreamer!!!

Yes, I know it's unrealistic, but so was "One Tamriel" once upon a time.

Letho2469 · April 2020

I am currently playing an Orc on my stamplar and I am VERY uncontent with it. Gotta puke when I see that ugly face while crafting or the big calves. Am I gonna change that? No, becuz 4k dps. I definetely second the OPs request though it will never happen cuz of roleplay(tm).

Deioth · April 2020

idk wrote: »

You are correct that they should never get rid of racial bonuses because then it makes the choice of race boring and pointless. OP's idea is boring.

As for your comments, Zos already reduced the overall effectiveness when they changed from a % increase to stats or other aspects to the flat value you noticed. There is a lot of freedom of choice with how the passives are now. People may have preference as to how it is done in other games, but this is not those other games.

How would expanding player choice be "boring"? And in vanilla (unless end game they were that impactful, I never made it to end game in vanilla) those were pitifully small percentage bonuses. You get flat stats as big as two pieces of gear now, and buffs comparable to skills and 5th set piece bonuses. There fundamentally is NOT as much freedom of choice now with that much of an impact on stats.

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

How would this change strenghten build diversity? Everyone would just pick the meta passives for their role and be done with it. At least now your choice has consequences. You want to be a stam DK but also a breton? You can, but you have to take some drawbacks.

Lifting restrictions is what erases drawbacks and diversity. Be it racials or class lines. Without limitations a single meta would arise for every role. Now you at least have a different meta for each class-role combination.

If you actually don't think there are only certain proper "meta" racials, then I don't think you've noticed how many people feel compelled (read, forced) to pick from only one or two races for any given role already. Players already pick from a "meta", so my idea would only mean they can then pick races they aesthetically prefer for the same goal. The system would also be balanced out so each tier would have meaningful choices to make. Any that show too much use or too little would then be tweaked appropriately. Also, the whole point of this thread is that drawbacks of picking Breton as a stam anything is fundamentally bad design in a game that has been homogenized in design from the very beginning. It also flies in the face of the fact that in the single player series you could become just as good at magic as a redguard as a breton which is not the case in ESO. Sure, you had an easier time leveling (which Tier 0 racials already reflect perfectly) but end game is what evened everyone out. ESO should follow the same design.

Stx wrote: »

Yeah if they ever were to homogenize the races, adding racial choices would be pointless, better to just remove them entirely.

Ok, breaking yours apart because your arguments are objectively unsound. Players would still have plenty of reasons to pick the race they want, be it personal, aesthetic, or roleplay purposes. They just no longer feel compelled (read, forced) to pick one just for racial stats.

The Elder scrolls races have always had strengths and specializations, I just dont understand why it's such an issue now.

And none fundamentally would affect the end game because by then an Altmer could be just as masterful with the Blade as a Redguard. Racial differences affected the leveling process more than anything else.

I think the best way to handle this is just to reduce the overall stats the racials provide. 2k stamina and 258 weapon damage for a racial is a bit much, that's basically 4 pieces of a set bonus in stats. Knock it down to 1k stam and 129 damage and call it a day.

Boring and fixes nothing because people will still feel compelled one way or the other. Even when passives were less meaningful as pitiful percents, I bet some people even during vanilla still made only certain roles with certain races.

Again, vote no for homogenization in an RPG. The day a breton warrior can stand toe to toe with an orc or a nord in battle is a sad day for Tamriel.

What kind of argument even is this? My Breton warrior beat Umbra because he could become that good a warrior. Such an unflinching and restrictive perspective leads to stagnation, spits on the game's lore, and thumbs its nose at roleplay and player agency.

newtinmpls wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

I'm with you on dismantling classes and only having skill lines. But that's only a dream lol

Hail fellow dreamer!!!

Yes, I know it's unrealistic, but so was "One Tamriel" once upon a time.

Quite unlikely given the game's core designs revolve around there being classes. They'd be better off making a sequel MMO and properly translating the SP games' designs in the first place because I doubt any fan of the SP games are happy with the design choice of classes to begin with.

Nick_Balza wrote: »

It's not "The Elder Royal Rumble Online", which is focused on PvP. PvP here is an option. TESO is a casual game for exploration, lore and PvE first of all.

There is a bunch of other MMO for just slaughtering other players, where lore is absent or means nothing.

I don't want to see such stuff in ESO, because it will kill the whole point of the game.

Uhh, you do realize that the Three Factions War and Cyrodiil were in the game from launch, right? And that they drove PvE AND PvP both? Respectfully, this is not an argument. May as well hate on oranges in a grocer's fruit section by claiming it isn't focused on citrus.

Stx · April 2020

You're the one spitting on the games lore with this nonsense wanting every race to be the same.

Eatmyface · April 2020

always wanting to ruin the functionality of the game.

[Edit to remove bait]

Deioth · April 2020

Stx wrote: »

You're the one spitting on the games lore with this nonsense wanting every race to be the same.

No, I'm not, because every race in the SP games could become just as good at every skill as any other race. The racial differences from a stats perspective is already sufficiently there with the Tier 0 free racial of the experience bonus and other perk, and it isn't like they couldn't expand on this to make it more interesting. The point costing racials, however, are entirely arbitrary, and they do not adequately represent the races in a way that fits the original games' inherent freedom of choice and openness of design. They actively restrict players in the current setup. A stamina bonus is not a satisfying racial because magicka and stamina effectively represent every magic skill line and every martial skill line in one single stat respectfully. This is why they are bad because I can't make a Redguard just as good a caster as a Breton in ESO when I could in every other TES game, it just took longer. What are arbitrarily called "racial skills" would fit far better as "adventurer skills" because they would represent players choosing their character's focus from the original games (Major, Minor, Misc skills, or Warrior/Mage/Thief profession).

You're going to have to try harder than mere gainsaying, buddy.

Deathlord92 · April 2020

Deioth wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

You're the one spitting on the games lore with this nonsense wanting every race to be the same.

No, I'm not, because every race in the SP games could become just as good at every skill as any other race. The racial differences from a stats perspective is already sufficiently there with the Tier 0 free racial of the experience bonus and other perk, and it isn't like they couldn't expand on this to make it more interesting. The point costing racials, however, are entirely arbitrary, and they do not adequately represent the races in a way that fits the original games' inherent freedom of choice and openness of design. They actively restrict players in the current setup. A stamina bonus is not a satisfying racial because magicka and stamina effectively represent every magic skill line and every martial skill line in one single stat respectfully. This is why they are bad because I can't make a Redguard just as good a caster as a Breton in ESO when I could in every other TES game, it just took longer. What are arbitrarily called "racial skills" would fit far better as "adventurer skills" because they would represent players choosing their character's focus from the original games (Major, Minor, Misc skills, or Warrior/Mage/Thief profession).

You're going to have to try harder than mere gainsaying, buddy.

I do hope zos does something about racial passives I really love playing a Breton stamblade and then I look at how op my orc stamblade is it’s just a massive difference.

Letho2469 · April 2020

^ won't happen as racials have just been rebalanced.

Chilly-McFreeze · April 2020

It wouldn't be a meaningfull choice. To be that, it would require a trade off. Currently that trade off is either having suboptimal passives but the race you want or having BiS passives but a race you maybe don't want.

What would be the trade off with your proposal? All it does is making race choice meaningless. The opposite of what you pledge.

If you're all about meta anyway you won't care what race is under that helmet/ polymorph etc.
But if you're into more than just numbers crunching it becomes a tough choice.

Is it fair? I think so. Different passives have been a staple in a whole lot of RPGs. Some of the greates RPGs even had some classes race-locked.
Are the races perfectly balanced? No, but that's a different topic.

In general, too much or too few limitations/ restictions/ tradeoffs don't increase diversity. It just makes the meta more common.

Deioth · April 2020

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

It wouldn't be a meaningfull choice. To be that, it would require a trade off. Currently that trade off is either having suboptimal passives but the race you want or having BiS passives but a race you maybe don't want.

What would be the trade off with your proposal? All it does is making race choice meaningless. The opposite of what you pledge.

If you're all about meta anyway you won't care what race is under that helmet/ polymorph etc.
But if you're into more than just numbers crunching it becomes a tough choice.

Is it fair? I think so. Different passives have been a staple in a whole lot of RPGs. Some of the greates RPGs even had some classes race-locked.
Are the races perfectly balanced? No, but that's a different topic.

In general, too much or too few limitations/ restictions/ tradeoffs don't increase diversity. It just makes the meta more common.

The current system is not a system of trade offs. For it to be a trade off you would need meaningful choices. Light armor and magicka bonuses when you are a stam build is not a trade off, that is gimping yourself. May as well only play with green non-set gear. A proper trade off would be do you want flat extra stamina, extra weapon damage, or extra recovery. Those are tradeoffs and that is exactly what my proposal would provide.

As plenty have made clear in this thread, they outright dislike that they cannot play a race they prefer because of how good racial bonuses are. Even if you hide your face etc under armor or costumes you still know it is x race. This game, and in truth the single player games it is based off of, is heavily homogenized because in the end you can become whatever you want to become and be just as good at it as any other race. Certainly the SP games had more racial flavor in one way or another, but no race was unable to reach master proficiency in certain skills, and with the way racials are implemented in ESO now that is what I want them to emulate. I want to emulate hitting 100 in Blade as an Altmer and have the weapon damage, penetration, and stamina passives to match.

Differences in races, if they are meant to be impactful, need to be meaningful with underlying systems working together to make them matter, otherwise they are just arbitrary. ESO is heavily homogenized as is. We aren't looking at a Dark Age of Camelot or Shadowbane here where races have a huge impact on available classes and viable builds. Everyone can learn every skill line, every class can be every race. Making racial passives this impactful with such a core design of homogenization is arbitrary and restrictive without actually making racial choice meaningful. Just make them Adventurer Skills (effectively representing the old Warrior/Mage/Thief choice of major and minor skills) and be done with it.

Chilly-McFreeze · April 2020

Deioth wrote: »

A proper trade off would be do you want flat extra stamina, extra weapon damage, or extra recovery. Those are tradeoffs and that is exactly what my proposal would provide.
.

I think we have a vastly different idea of what a tradeoff is. Maybe it's some kind of language barrier but to me this sounds like "I want race X and also passive Y". That's cherry picking but not a boon coupled with a drawback.

Toc de Malsvi · April 2020

idk wrote: »

Deioth wrote: »

Everyone has their aesthetic choices, but PvP (and to a lesser extent PvE) requires smart builds and with the way this game's design works out you're gimping yourself playing a magicka orc, for example, or a stamina argonian.

The choice of racial passives are part of those smart builds.

TES games have always had a flavor with the choice of race. ESO is no different. With the recent changes to racial passives, most of them are not as significant as they once were. People can always choose their race for appearance or functionality. That is a choice.

BTW, There was a point Zos considered uncoupling the passives from the race. The original idea for offering the ability changing race was to merely change the appearance and keep the passive you already had. They decided against that and to keep the passives tied to the choice or race. It does seem this is somewhat set in stone now.

It’s a video game, an MMO, nothing is set in stone.

Deioth · April 2020

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Deioth wrote: »

A proper trade off would be do you want flat extra stamina, extra weapon damage, or extra recovery. Those are tradeoffs and that is exactly what my proposal would provide.
.

I think we have a vastly different idea of what a tradeoff is. Maybe it's some kind of language barrier but to me this sounds like "I want race X and also passive Y". That's cherry picking but not a boon coupled with a drawback.

In an MMO, it either needs to be designed from its core as offering distinct races with fundamental choices involved (e.g. class locking) or it needs to be designed from its core towards homogenization (e.g. no class locking). The problem with ESO right now is that the racial skills are running counter to the game's inherent homogenized systems. The only things truly unique from a pure gameplay perspective are the classes. Ever since changes such as One Tamriel, the game has only further homogenized, but they've decided to try and give races "flavor" by giving them fundamentally different stat bonuses, yet still the freedom to make builds counter to those passives. There is no tradeoff building a Breton stam build or an Orc mag build. You only serve to gimp yourself. A tradeoff means you sacrifice X to gain Y. In ESO, you sacrifice X but don't get Y if you build against the racials. If you're not a health/tank build, you hurt yourself not picking a health bonus race. If you're a magicka build, you hurt yourself not picking a magicka bonus race. The same follows for stamina.

This choice to try and make races unique in an already by core design homogenized game is an active detriment to the very pros homogenized design provides and that is maximum player freedom. If I want an orc mage then I should have the passives to match because in the SP games every race was just as strong as every other at the same stats and the same skill level with minimal functional moment-to-moment (i.e., Combat) differences. ESO should reflect that same core design. I'm more than open to seeing more interesting racial passives, but only if they are more for flavor and minimally impacting to moment-to-moment gameplay (crafting and harvesting are good places to start). In a game where I can max every skill and play any class as any race on any faction and engage in any quest chain with cross-faction PvP battlegrounds and even an any alliance Cyrodiil it is completely arbitrary that in this ONE single area I'm compelled to choose between only 3 or 4 different races for any particular build. The game's total player freedom design is suddenly chained down in this one single spot.

Understand what I mean now that we need real tradeoffs and that aesthetics is NOT a good tradeoff?

newtinmpls · May 2020

Deioth wrote: »

In an MMO, it either needs to be designed from its core as offering distinct races with fundamental choices involved (e.g. class locking) or it needs to be designed from its core towards homogenization (e.g. no class locking).

ES in general, and ESO in particular were designed with a lot of distinct options.

Races
Classes
Alliances

Due to response from the player-base, and changes in management, and desire to keep making money, ZoS has ended up steering away from that initial model.

Now we have

One Tamriel
Race Change
Cross-alliance groupings for activities.

So the "initial design" has certainly been altered.

Haza_212 · May 2020

The races are a major part of the Elder Scrolls lore. They should have obvious differences in capability and skills

Deioth · May 2020

newtinmpls wrote: »

Deioth wrote: »

In an MMO, it either needs to be designed from its core as offering distinct races with fundamental choices involved (e.g. class locking) or it needs to be designed from its core towards homogenization (e.g. no class locking).

ES in general, and ESO in particular were designed with a lot of distinct options.

Races
Classes
Alliances

Due to response from the player-base, and changes in management, and desire to keep making money, ZoS has ended up steering away from that initial model.

Now we have

One Tamriel
Race Change
Cross-alliance groupings for activities.

So the "initial design" has certainly been altered.

Initial design, with pre-order or Crowns, allowed any race in any alliance (I'd made a couple low level non-EP Argonians back in the day, for example). Imperials were cross faction if you had the Imperial version. Completing the main quest let you play in and quest in opposing faction areas. They've merely made all of these things more available from the get go. The inherent design is still the same, it is just more approachable now.

Haza_212 wrote: »

The races are a major part of the Elder Scrolls lore. They should have obvious differences in capability and skills

Agreed, at least to a point. I'd love more non-combat and fluff in their Tier 0 (the free one) racial skill. But, for combat impacting bonuses, they should follow the SP games. Every race could master every skill, compensate for every racial weakness, and end game be functionally just as good a swordsman as a Breton as a Redguard or good a mage as an Orc as an Altmer. Since Magicka and Stamina effectively represent the original skill system, the bonuses should become universally available "Adventurer Skills" as a spin off of the Warrior/Mage/Thief, Class, and Sign choices of earlier titles.

Stx · May 2020

You keep twisting the single player games to suit your argument. The races in the single player games had huge differences.. not just in starting stats, but in other passives like bretons spell absorption. In eso you cant cheese your attributes to all reach 100 because it's not a single player game. You also cant create OP enchantments on your gear that can reach 100% spell absorption.

The races in elder scrolls have literally always been very different. Orcs, red guards, and nords have always been the best natural warriors, bretons and altmer have always been the best mages. Just because in the single player games you can play long enough to cap every skill doesnt change this. Eso is not a single player game, there are limits and rules to your character power for good reason.

Deioth · May 2020

Stx wrote: »

You keep twisting the single player games to suit your argument. The races in the single player games had huge differences.. not just in starting stats, but in other passives like bretons spell absorption. In eso you cant cheese your attributes to all reach 100 because it's not a single player game. You also cant create OP enchantments on your gear that can reach 100% spell absorption.

The races in elder scrolls have literally always been very different. Orcs, red guards, and nords have always been the best natural warriors, bretons and altmer have always been the best mages. Just because in the single player games you can play long enough to cap every skill doesnt change this. Eso is not a single player game, there are limits and rules to your character power for good reason.

Yet, those differences functionally, at end game, made little fundamental difference. And ESO clearly limited power discrepancies between races from release only opting for mostly some minor stat boosts that matched up either to passive perks or the unique race active powers or to the base stat and skill differences the SP games featured. All I ask is that the stat and skill potentials of the SP games are matched in ESO. No twisting of anything is being made to suit my argument because I consider this idea to be a logical next step You yourself are saying some races were the best "natural" races at one profession or another but you (and other naysayers) have yet to argue against the very achievable possibility of a character achieving mastery of their "unnatural" profession. ESO doesn't feature any means for a magic affiliated race to match up to a martial affiliated race or vice versa while the SP games did. Hence this post and my idea. If you can make an argument against why I shouldn't be able to make an Altmer dual wield stamblade that is just as functionally good as an orc of the same then you may finally have a leg to stand on. If you cannot, then there is no reason to fight against this idea other than bias towards a rigidly held expectation born entirely from subjective preference.

If part of your (and others') argument is that we should have more meaningful differences between the races in racial powers or passives, we're in agreement. But, pointing to the lack thereof is a woefully weak counterpoint to the suggestion that we balance races out functionally, and I believe my idea has the greatest potential to do precisely that. Every single race in this game starts at the same exact amount of magicka, same health, same stamina, level 1 in every skill tree, they are all functionally identical. Our access to passive stat boosts and perks should reflect that same exact design.

Stx · May 2020

You keep referencing the single player endgame, and my point is, that is useless. Because the single player games had no endgame, you could keep playing forever and make one character the master of everything and a literal flying god.

That's not how this game works. So your argument that a breton can spend enough time to become as great a warrior as an orc is moot. If the orc spends that same amount of time, he will still be better because his DNA has shaped him into a warrior.

IronWooshu · May 2020

SydneyGrey wrote: »

I was happy when they made it so Dark Elves and Khajiits could be either stamina or magicka. I'd love if more races were like this, actually.

They can be, you just need to get past the idea of min/maxing. I have done all vet trials as DPS on a Magicka Imperial.

Deathlord92 · May 2020

IronWooshu wrote: »

SydneyGrey wrote: »

I was happy when they made it so Dark Elves and Khajiits could be either stamina or magicka. I'd love if more races were like this, actually.

They can be, you just need to get past the idea of min/maxing. I have done all vet trials as DPS on a Magicka Imperial.

That’s true but wouldn’t it be nice if your imperial had that max magic passive and my Breton has that max stamina everyone wins then. I would never of imagined before khajiit getting max magic always thought they was 100% thieves assassins etc.