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Nobody will want to go past stage 1
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Paradisius✭✭✭✭These are becoming my findings to but that ability cost increase is very noticeable on a magDK, especially when you're put on the defensive and spamming things like Coagulating blood to stay alive. It doesn't feel good to play as a vampire with that ability cost increase on top of the other weaknesses vampires have, but its fun to play in Overland PVE. Just wish the primarily damage dealing ability was a ranged blood magic spell. Having to get close on a skill line that lacks gap closers is annoying..
I agree, I think adjusting arterial burst to be the ranged option would be a fine change, possibly change the guaranteed crit since you could use it at range. As for ability cost I dont see it as badly but that is due to me being a magCro, reusable parts existing and mystic siphon not costing magicka are some nice benefits3 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »That's not what that means. That's never been what that meant.
"Play your way," means that you can approach any content you want. If you want to focus on PvP, that's an option. If you want to focus on open world questing, that's an option. If you want to run group content, that's an option. If you want to build to endgame using crafted gear, you can do that.
However, "play your way," has never meant that you could fling random skills onto your bar and have an effective build off of that.
Uh, no. Sorry but that's completely wrong. "Play your way" doesn't mean choosing between PvP or group dungeons. That choice is just the game and is something basically every MMO has.
"Play your way" is in fact a whole lot closer to that random skill flinging thing. It's specifically in reference to the fact that you can build your character a thousand different ways and make it your own instead of being limited to picking from a very small handful of predesigned cookie cutters. This way you can approach any content you want however you want to approach it. That's what differentiates ESO from something like WoW.
Actually, you are both right.
You are just looking at it from different sides of the same thing.
The one thing that "play your way" is not, is that it is not to be expected to provide you with an effective, competitive build for everything that you try. You can throw together "random skills" and play that character, but no guarantee of effectiveness is given.
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Septimus_Magna✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Blood for Blood is a really interesting skill sustain-wise in pve, especially for classes that dont have a good spammable.
For my magsorc I was thinking about vamp stage 1 with the new vDSA inferno staff. The non-vamp skill I would use are Unstable Wall, Deadric Curse, Flame Clench and Crystal Frags when it procs. Having a health costing spammable will probably offset the 10% cost increase for non-vamp skills. It might be smart to run about 20k health so you dont instantly rip if you get hit after casting the spammable.
Of course there are downsides in the fact that you take more fire dmg and have to be in melee range but at least there are some options to make magsorcs a bit more interesting in pve.PC - EU (AD)Septimus Mezar - Altmer Sorcerer
Septimus Rulanir - Orsimer Templar
Septimus Desmoru - Khajiit Necromancer
Septimus Iroh - Dunmer Dragon Knight
Septimus Thragar - Dunmer Nightblade
Septimus Jah'zar - Khajiit Nightblade
Septimus Nerox - Redguard Warden
Septimus Ozurk - Orsimer Sorcerer0 -
lookstwice✭✭✭well, was thinking of dropping vamp with these changes. so in anticipation i cured one of my characters and the very next quest i was doing a secondary objective was not to kill anybody. but with the sneak speed was awful to deal with.
Same thing later was trying to get past some mobs in a delve and it was just brutal.
Was really hoping to drop vamp, but feel like I'm stuck having to keep it even though I have no desire for using vamp skills.
Wish they would add the sneak speed passive to the thieves guild / dark brotherhood. I would then pay with crowns on all my other toons to unlock it. Cha ching for you zos.1 -
universal_wrath✭✭✭✭✭darthgummibear_ESO wrote: »We'll effectively be in the same place as we are now because people won't want to go past stage 1 with the cost increases and actively avoid feeding. Stage 1 will be like stage 4 is now, with everything being more expensive.
I wanted to be able to feed to get stronger, now I have to avoid feeding because I'll get severely penalized for it. There's no upside.
I personaly would use it. While I'm a stamsorc, I don't care much about the ulti cost incrase because I'm using bolargh anyway. More ulti, most dmg. Also, I'm not vamp yet, but if it was released as it is, I will most likely be one. I need the walker passive. 50 sprring cost reduction and ability to stealth after 3 secs of running. I will be a nightblade ganker in the form of stamsorc. 20% cost inrease is not much if you only need to press 2-3 buttons/skills to kill someone then run away. I know many nightblades gankers will be delighted to be vamps next patch as well since they can also use the new vamp buff ability for good *** of weapon/spell dmg to secure their kills as well as free stealth for disingaging. Probably only people hurt by this change are people who use vamp because mist form and undeath. To stay and fight 1vx or something like that.1 -
relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I made a stage 4 vamp Cro on PTS, I literally invested nothing into recovery and never dropped below 50% magicka. On a macro most skills are cheap or free.
If you use mainly vamp skills it is insanely op!2 -
Aedaryl✭✭✭✭✭
✭relentless_turnip wrote: »I made a stage 4 vamp Cro on PTS, I literally invested nothing into recovery and never dropped below 50% magicka. On a macro most skills are cheap or free.
If you use mainly vamp skills it is insanely op!
In PvP, you need to heal/shield, this is where the cost increase make the difference.
When you are offensive, you mostly use vampire skills which are extremely cheap, but when you are forced to actively defend yourself with already high cost defesives options, you cannot sustain it.
Only ez sustain like magplar could sustain it - but why using eviscarate when you have jabs ?4 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Uh, no. Sorry but that's completely wrong. "Play your way" doesn't mean choosing between PvP or group dungeons. That choice is just the game and is something basically every MMO has.
Except, of course, most MMOs do strong arm you into certain activities. Want to reach endgame in BDO? You're going to be doing PvP, whether you like it or not.
Want to advance in Destiny 2? You need to do all activities for the last 10 light.
Want to get to CP160 gold gear in ESO? Yeah, you can do that however. If you want something specific, like False Gods, that will require running a specific piece of content, but you can gear up to cap on a wide variety of activities."Play your way" is in fact a whole lot closer to that random skill flinging thing. It's specifically in reference to the fact that you can build your character a thousand different ways and make it your own instead of being limited to picking from a very small handful of predesigned cookie cutters. This way you can approach any content you want however you want to approach it. That's what differentiates ESO from something like WoW.
Not really. There's more flexability. For example, you're not locked into specific weapons and armor for specific classes, which is a degree of freedom that's unusual. For example, in WoW, you can't run every class as a tank, the way you can in ESO. However, that doesn't mean you can do whatever. If you're running a light armor, Dual Wield/Bow "tank," you're not going to be effective. You still need to understand what you're doing. It's not as simple as flinging random skills at the bar and calling it good.
However, the people who cry about "play how you want," are always like, "well, I want to be a heavy armor sword and board DPS who uses magic," when that simply doesn't work.1 -
Tessitura✭✭✭✭✭So after playing a stamina vampire for a minute, I can't help but wonder how you figure this hit stamina harder? Stamina does not actually struggle that much here, sure I am not usually playing my stam toons a stage four on the pts, but I am still making it work and very effectively. How many of you have actually gone onto the pts to test things? I keep finding myself asking this because most of the people I talk to on the pts do not have these gripes, at least the ones that have helped me test things. A few of us have already come up with some builds that offset some of the cost and make use of the weapon power we get to balance out the potential dps loss. Believe it or not. stamina actually can make good use of a every ability in the vampires kit except for the spammable, but Dizzy out preforms it anyway, even with he cost increase, so I still would not use it.
And I just want you to know, a cheap sorce of 75% damage reduction on TOGGLE is amazing on stam. Mist form is so busted since stam regens while you are in it. It basically a free stam regen for stamina toons. Seriously, download the pts and go look for yourself.
Lol what stage do you play at? 1 or 2?
2 and 3, its not that baffling. Go download the pts and actually try it. 3 is a bit more intense but when fighting people with the new Stuhn's set, it can be very useful.Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Just watched Alcast's video on vampires.
Vampires will be fine; and I can promise you that within the first month of release there will be the first broken Vampire builds running around (e.g. by fully exploiting the 60% vampire ability cost decrease with the set bonus).
Of course, slapping on vampire just for 2 passives won't work anymore. Get over it.
Condescending much?
People are pissed that the rework didn't turn out as promising as it was expected to be.
Was it kinda mandatory in the past? Surely. Be it for the passives alone or because some classes even needed the few lousy skills it offered.
But now tanks and healers can go cure themselves. Most (!) stamina chars as well. Vampirism turned from being omnipresent to being a straight up nerf and unusable to 50% of the playerbase.
Pick your poison. I'd rather see it more inclusive than it is now. E.g. via slightly softer cost penalties as well as a stam scaling damage ability. With those two changes alone you could get a good chunk back on board again.
If I wanted to use a skill line that with 50%+ useless skills and passives for me, I'd play a sorc on stamina . Oh, wait...
You can't tank or heal at 5% skill cost increase? Or you mean it won't be FOM anymore?
If I wouldn't be a DK Tank who has Talons, I might be damn temped to slot that 5 second vampire AOE stun. That looks a bit OP for 2k magicka to be honest. You get another super low cost spamable, mist, good ultimate.
Yes, stage 4 might not be for the majority of the playerbase. Stage 1 on the other hand, I would argue most average joe's can't even tell the difference if there is a 5% cost increase.
I'm don't mean FotM. I mean it being a burden. Why should I debuff myself with a 5% cost increase?
You mean for tanking? The AoE Stun is only 2k at stage 4, means +20% on everything else. At stage 1 it's about 3k. Yes, cheap but it does nothing else. So I think Turn Evi is still better for that, yet alone for the group buffs. Also you don't need that vamp spam as tank.Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Just watched Alcast's video on vampires.
Vampires will be fine; and I can promise you that within the first month of release there will be the first broken Vampire builds running around (e.g. by fully exploiting the 60% vampire ability cost decrease with the set bonus).
Of course, slapping on vampire just for 2 passives won't work anymore. Get over it.
Condescending much?
People are pissed that the rework didn't turn out as promising as it was expected to be.
Was it kinda mandatory in the past? Surely. Be it for the passives alone or because some classes even needed the few lousy skills it offered.
But now tanks and healers can go cure themselves. Most (!) stamina chars as well. Vampirism turned from being omnipresent to being a straight up nerf and unusable to 50% of the playerbase.
Pick your poison. I'd rather see it more inclusive than it is now. E.g. via slightly softer cost penalties as well as a stam scaling damage ability. With those two changes alone you could get a good chunk back on board again.
If I wanted to use a skill line that with 50%+ useless skills and passives for me, I'd play a sorc on stamina . Oh, wait...
I don't see Healers and Tanks playing in Werewolf transformation either...
Vampire supposed to be for Magicka, what Werewolf is for Stamina.
On PTS? Seems so. Up until now it wasn't. Not in ESO and surely not in previous TES games. Others wrote enough about why that comparison is lacking, especially from a lore point of view as far as vamps go. Never saw spell slinging werewolfs. But "stamina vampires" isn't really a rare sight.
But the comparison is also lacking in general, as the whole point of WW is the transformation and the temporary third bar. While vamps are about augmenting your mortal skills, and not about debuffing you so heavily that you become so restricted that you won't use your normal skills. Beside that, for using only vamp skills the skill line isn't good enough.
Which harm would it cause to turn Blood for Blood into a skill that scales with your highest stat instead of only mag stats?
I know I repeat myself, but changing this and soften the cost increase would shut up most of the complains.
Fair point about the healers and tanks. Although I already saw posts about werewolf tanking with the new tormentor changes. Won't be meta anyway.
All in all it seems like wasted effort. The rework is a main selling point of the next chapter. Doing all the work so people feel the urge to not use it feels a bit off, don't you think? It's too restrictiv and not inclusive enough.
You are wrong on multiple points, vamp is going to make some very strong tanks. 5% cost increase is totally worth the utility of Blood Mist and that drain and ultimate is so good for tanking. So much easy stam regen for blocking, and spike healing. Healers get the least out of this but they can still benefit from the extra spell power for stronger dot heals.
And has far as this gross misconception that stam can't get good builds out of vamp, everyone is just wrong about that. You can, and in fact, do benefit from a lot of skills on stam builds, not to mention the universal passives that benefit all builds.1 -
Glurin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »Uh, no. Sorry but that's completely wrong. "Play your way" doesn't mean choosing between PvP or group dungeons. That choice is just the game and is something basically every MMO has.
Except, of course, most MMOs do strong arm you into certain activities. Want to reach endgame in BDO? You're going to be doing PvP, whether you like it or not.
Want to advance in Destiny 2? You need to do all activities for the last 10 light.
Want to get to CP160 gold gear in ESO? Yeah, you can do that however. If you want something specific, like False Gods, that will require running a specific piece of content, but you can gear up to cap on a wide variety of activities."Play your way" is in fact a whole lot closer to that random skill flinging thing. It's specifically in reference to the fact that you can build your character a thousand different ways and make it your own instead of being limited to picking from a very small handful of predesigned cookie cutters. This way you can approach any content you want however you want to approach it. That's what differentiates ESO from something like WoW.
Not really. There's more flexability. For example, you're not locked into specific weapons and armor for specific classes, which is a degree of freedom that's unusual. For example, in WoW, you can't run every class as a tank, the way you can in ESO. However, that doesn't mean you can do whatever. If you're running a light armor, Dual Wield/Bow "tank," you're not going to be effective. You still need to understand what you're doing. It's not as simple as flinging random skills at the bar and calling it good.
However, the people who cry about "play how you want," are always like, "well, I want to be a heavy armor sword and board DPS who uses magic," when that simply doesn't work.
Yeah, here's the thing. That should work. That is what play as you want means. Flexibility. Picking the warrior class and being stuck as a tank in metal underwear for all eternity is not that.
You wanna be a sword and board DPS with magic, you should be able to be a sword and board DPS with magic. You wanna be a tanky archer, you should be able to be a tanky archer. Doesn't mean you have to be the greatest DPS or tank of all time doing that. Just that they're workable options.
It's all about breaking the stereotypes. All mages only ever wear bathrobes and silly pointed hats. All elves live in the ancient forest and can only ever be archers or priests. All warriors are too stupid to use magic. It doesn't have to be like that."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster...when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you..."2 -
Glurin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
I agree. Becoming a vampire for it's passives isn't actually a bad thing. It's just that before the redesign it was pretty much a no brainer. Vampirism didn't really have any impact to it, so there wasn't really any reason not to do it. Other than the purely cosmetic skin condition of course.
But I do feel that some people here and maybe even the devs to some degree are overcorrecting and trying to go from having no impact to being the kind of choice that tosses everything else out the window. That's not where we want to be.Edited by Glurin on May 1, 2020 8:57PM"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster...when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you..."8 -
Dr_Ganknstein✭✭✭✭✭
✭
I agree. Becoming a vampire for it's passives isn't actually a bad thing. It's just that before the redesign it was pretty much a no brainer. Vampirism didn't really have any impact to it, so there wasn't really any reason not to do it. Other than the purely cosmetic skin condition of course.
But I do feel that some people here and maybe even the devs to some degree are overcorrecting and trying to go from having no impact to being the kind of choice that tosses everything else out the window. That's not where we want to be.
I agree. I liked how it is now where its not too ridiculous. Maybe tweak the weaknesses a little more but now people will go vampire like its a separate class and go DK, Templar etc for the class passives. Its another flip flop change.0 -
Ashagin✭✭Lore wise or for rp purposes I've never heard of a vampire that gets more decrepid and powerfull the more they feed. If you starve, you should get more undead looking and weaker. The more you feed the more beautiful and powerfull you should become much like in interview with a vampire. Stage 1 and 2 you should be chased out of town and 3 to 4 you should be able to pass as human. That way you would be encouraged to feed and if you didnt because of moral conflicts you would grow weaker and the hunger would grow as you wither from lack of feeding.5
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Vevvev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Lore wise or for rp purposes I've never heard of a vampire that gets more decrepid and powerfull the more they feed. If you starve, you should get more undead looking and weaker. The more you feed the more beautiful and powerfull you should become much like in interview with a vampire. Stage 1 and 2 you should be chased out of town and 3 to 4 you should be able to pass as human. That way you would be encouraged to feed and if you didnt because of moral conflicts you would grow weaker and the hunger would grow as you wither from lack of feeding.
Agreed, also if a vampire in TES universe refuses to feed they could go into a comatose state, which is what happened to Count Hassildor's wife. Interestingly enough their bloodline was the Imperial Order bloodline which was altered by Clavicus Vile to make them blend into the mortal world when they fed. In fact while well fed the sunlight couldn't even touch them, which made them completely indistinguishable from mortals. When you start looking at the current direction ZOS is taking with vampires it doesn't make much sense when you compare it to what Bethesda did in the other games with how bloodlines got changed in lore.Edited by Vevvev on May 1, 2020 11:38PMPC NA - Ceyanna Ashton - Breton Vampire MagDK4 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Lore wise or for rp purposes I've never heard of a vampire that gets more decrepid and powerfull the more they feed. If you starve, you should get more undead looking and weaker. The more you feed the more beautiful and powerfull you should become much like in interview with a vampire. Stage 1 and 2 you should be chased out of town and 3 to 4 you should be able to pass as human. That way you would be encouraged to feed and if you didnt because of moral conflicts you would grow weaker and the hunger would grow as you wither from lack of feeding.
It isn't about what the vampires look like. The charismatic vampire was something that was popularized by Dracula, and the vampires in the Chronicles were charismatic bad boy heroes. It is still about the monster. They are monsters. They are always monsters. It is feeding on blood that defines that monster.
Elder Scrolls is an exception. It is backwards from that. Starting with Oblivion, they reinforced it as a disease, so feeding on blood is a treatment for being a vampire. Without it, the vampire will gradually become the monster, and feeding is how one goes about preventing that. Feeding on blood defines the treatment of the monster.
Now ESO is the exception to the Elder Scrolls lore, for good or bad. While the monsters in ESO are not charismatic, like in Interview, they do require feeding to become the monster, not prevent it.
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Runefang✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭My biggest problem with the cost increase, even at stage 1, is that in PvE there will be situations where running vampire skills is not optimal.
Blood for Blood for example is going to be the primary magicka spammable in many fights but you won't run it in vAS. You probably won't run Frenzy either unless you're super super comfortable avoiding the incoming damage. Which means you're either left with the passives in stage 1 and an increase to all your skills. Or you need to cure yourself of vampirism because it is actually making you perform worse.
But then in vSS you'll be running Frenzy and/or Blood for Blood because its fantastic and will be fairly safe to do so. So you need to become a vampire again.
So I hope they remove the cost increase of stage 1, allow a stage 0 which disables all vampire skills and passives, or absolute worst case they remove the 7 day cool down on making others vampires. Then at least I could park an unused vampire at the shrine for guildies.4 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »Uh, no. Sorry but that's completely wrong. "Play your way" doesn't mean choosing between PvP or group dungeons. That choice is just the game and is something basically every MMO has.
Except, of course, most MMOs do strong arm you into certain activities. Want to reach endgame in BDO? You're going to be doing PvP, whether you like it or not.
Want to advance in Destiny 2? You need to do all activities for the last 10 light.
Want to get to CP160 gold gear in ESO? Yeah, you can do that however. If you want something specific, like False Gods, that will require running a specific piece of content, but you can gear up to cap on a wide variety of activities."Play your way" is in fact a whole lot closer to that random skill flinging thing. It's specifically in reference to the fact that you can build your character a thousand different ways and make it your own instead of being limited to picking from a very small handful of predesigned cookie cutters. This way you can approach any content you want however you want to approach it. That's what differentiates ESO from something like WoW.
Not really. There's more flexability. For example, you're not locked into specific weapons and armor for specific classes, which is a degree of freedom that's unusual. For example, in WoW, you can't run every class as a tank, the way you can in ESO. However, that doesn't mean you can do whatever. If you're running a light armor, Dual Wield/Bow "tank," you're not going to be effective. You still need to understand what you're doing. It's not as simple as flinging random skills at the bar and calling it good.
However, the people who cry about "play how you want," are always like, "well, I want to be a heavy armor sword and board DPS who uses magic," when that simply doesn't work.
Yeah, here's the thing. That should work. That is what play as you want means. Flexibility. Picking the warrior class and being stuck as a tank in metal underwear for all eternity is not that.
Which is "the warrior class?"
Because the two classes that preview in heavy armor are the DK and the Templar. Except, both of those classes also work as DPS. StamKnights aren't my favorite, but they work. MagKnights used to be a difficult rotation to very solid numbers, I assume the solid numbers thing is still true.
Magplars and Stamplars are a freakin' meme for their roflstomp capacity.
If you rolled either you're not glued in heavy armor, you're free to play those classes, how you want. Oh wait, right.You wanna be a sword and board DPS with magic, you should be able to be a sword and board DPS with magic. You wanna be a tanky archer, you should be able to be a tanky archer. Doesn't mean you have to be the greatest DPS or tank of all time doing that. Just that they're workable options.
It's all about breaking the stereotypes. All mages only ever wear bathrobes and silly pointed hats. All elves live in the ancient forest and can only ever be archers or priests. All warriors are too stupid to use magic. It doesn't have to be like that.
It's not like that at all, in part because this is The Elder Scrolls, not whatever generic fantasy setting you're trying to reference.
At the same time, flinging random skills at a wall and hoping for the best will never be a viable strategy. That's an ESO thing, that's in any game. Games operate by rules, and if you chose not to follow those you will be hard pressed to accidentally optimize your experience.
The problem with Sword and Board DPS is that they tend to taunt. That's the tank's job. The role for heavy armor in ESO is that you can take more abuse, but trade for it with your outgoing damage.
You're welcome to put a pointy hat on whomever you want, but if you want a heavy armor magic user with a sword and board, the rules of the game say you'll be best suited to being a tank, not DPS. If you want to carve someone up, you need to dual wield or have a 2h weapon. Now, that's not true to the real world, in the real world, the shield is as much a weapon as the sword that goes with it, but, we abide by the rules of the game, because it is a game.
Picking stuff at random doesn't support that. It doesn't work. Because, this is still a game, and you need to select your abilities (and gear) to support the approach you want to take. Taking the gear first, and then trying to kludge it into something else doesn't reflect the rules of the game, and as a result, it doesn't work.0 -
Glurin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Whoa, hold up there. I think we're on two different pages here. I'm talking about play as you want as a concept. You seem to be trying to categorize everything into neat little boxes while strangely at the same time using ESO's flexibility to try and justify doing so.
The reason I referenced generic fantasy is because that's what the play as you want idea tries to get away from. It's what the Elder Scrolls series has always done. But when you set hard and fast rules like S&B is strictly for tanking or DPS should only ever use dual wield, 2h or mage, what you're doing is actually pushing us toward generic fantasy.
I'm not saying that a completely random smattering of gear and abilities is going to work well. What I am saying is that play as you want as a concept is a whole lot closer to that than shoving everything into perfectly organized, mutually isolated categories."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster...when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you..."6 -
Dr_Ganknstein✭✭✭✭✭
✭Role players angry because people pick vampire just for the passives but are going to somehow be happy with the new vampire and pick a class just for the passives? I bet half the people that like this change aren't even playing vampires now.1 -
universal_wrath✭✭✭✭✭Role players angry because people pick vampire just for the passives but are going to somehow be happy with the new vampire and pick a class just for the passives? I bet half the people that like this change aren't even playing vampires now.
I'm not a vamp now, but I will be one if new chamges go life. Ironicly, much like most people currently, I wilp be vamp due to the new passives and only 1 skill.0 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Role players angry because people pick vampire just for the passives but are going to somehow be happy with the new vampire and pick a class just for the passives? I bet half the people that like this change aren't even playing vampires now.
It is possible that more people will play the new vampires than the old ones. Obviously, that will depend on whether the new skills at launch are competitive with existing optimal builds. If they are, then every other character you see will be a vampire. If they are not, then they will be discarded like a used tissue.
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Total in-game hours: 11321
X/Twitter: ElsonsoJannus0 -
Ryath_Waylander✭✭✭✭✭
✭Michaelkeir wrote: »I could be wrong but it seems to me that the devs only want people to play as a vampire using mainly vampire skills. I can see how this is a turn off to most people. I however will embrace it. I already have a pure werewolf themed character that pulls good dps (Blood moon, Req, and Molag). And when this drops I already have 2 pure vampire characters at the ready.
Stamina vampire builds on the other hand will probably have a hard time. But we shall have to see with further testing.
It seems they want Werewolf for stamina characters and Vampire for magic ones.
I do understand what you're saying here and it makes sense to want people to build a complete WW/Vampire but... you MUST build DPS. They need to flesh out the skill line so you can Heal or Tank as a vampire too.2 -
Ozymandias_13✭✭✭Then maybe you shouldn't be a vampire. Just like werewolf doesn't have synergy with a magicka build.
Then what if you're literally anything else but a MagBlade DPS?
Werewolf is usable with any role that isn't magicka. I get werewolf tanks in veteran dungeons all the time that run just fine in wolf form on trash mobs.
The new vampire doesn't work with stamina, but it also doesn't work with tanks or healers. In fact the new vampire rework is completely anti healer since they can't even heal you. I main a healer, and I promise any dps that gets themselves killed with the toggle is staying dead. I'm not wasting extra time or magicka hoping they have turned it off at the right times.3 -
Cuddler✭✭✭The new vampire doesn't work with stamina, but it also doesn't work with tanks or healers. In fact the new vampire rework is completely anti healer since they can't even heal you. I main a healer, and I promise any dps that gets themselves killed with the toggle is staying dead. I'm not wasting extra time or magicka hoping they have turned it off at the right times.
Have you actually logged into PTS and tried the new vampire? It works amazingly well on stamina builds. All passives and all but one one active are not exclusive to magicka builds.
Also, of the three group PVE roles, healers arguably benefit from vampirism the most. Resource management is already easier on a healer than tank and especially DPS. The Blood Frenzy DOT is easily outhealed, and healers can keep it on almost indefinitely since they do not depend on others for healing.
The new vampire is not just fine, it is more than fine. I expect Blood Frenzy, Undeath and the ultimate to be toned down as they are currently a bit overtuned.0 -
Nagastani✭✭✭✭So after playing a stamina vampire for a minute, I can't help but wonder how you figure this hit stamina harder? Stamina does not actually struggle that much here, sure I am not usually playing my stam toons a stage four on the pts, but I am still making it work and very effectively. How many of you have actually gone onto the pts to test things? I keep finding myself asking this because most of the people I talk to on the pts do not have these gripes, at least the ones that have helped me test things. A few of us have already come up with some builds that offset some of the cost and make use of the weapon power we get to balance out the potential dps loss. Believe it or not. stamina actually can make good use of a every ability in the vampires kit except for the spammable, but Dizzy out preforms it anyway, even with he cost increase, so I still would not use it.
And I just want you to know, a cheap sorce of 75% damage reduction on TOGGLE is amazing on stam. Mist form is so busted since stam regens while you are in it. It basically a free stam regen for stamina toons. Seriously, download the pts and go look for yourself.
One of the major problems with Stam Blade or even other things like WW is the Stamina cost vs demand for Stamina abilities. A cost increase is not going to help anyone and is not a welcomed sight, PTS or not.
And yes, even I have said we could develop a build to offset this however that is not the idea here. It's not friendly to the "play your way" concept for me to have to engineer a build to correct a problem with my character, as others have also stated. Which omits numerous other possibilities in game.
I have played a Stam Blade for years and can tell you that Stamina has always been a problem for that type of character because you're also roll dodging, sneaking, blocking, healing with Vigor.. etc and using your Bow or whichever Stam abilities as well. A cost increase for us is very noticeably bad. You are not going to see this nor understand by playing Stamina Vampire for a minute. Many of us are also custom to 1v1s and 1v2s and especially this serves to illustrate just how much of a problem the skill cost increase will be.Edited by Nagastani on May 2, 2020 6:04PM2 -
Nagastani✭✭✭✭The new vampire doesn't work with stamina, but it also doesn't work with tanks or healers. In fact the new vampire rework is completely anti healer since they can't even heal you. I main a healer, and I promise any dps that gets themselves killed with the toggle is staying dead. I'm not wasting extra time or magicka hoping they have turned it off at the right times.
Have you actually logged into PTS and tried the new vampire? It works amazingly well on stamina builds. All passives and all but one one active are not exclusive to magicka builds.
Also, of the three group PVE roles, healers arguably benefit from vampirism the most. Resource management is already easier on a healer than tank and especially DPS. The Blood Frenzy DOT is easily outhealed, and healers can keep it on almost indefinitely since they do not depend on others for healing.
The new vampire is not just fine, it is more than fine. I expect Blood Frenzy, Undeath and the ultimate to be toned down as they are currently a bit overtuned.
I would encourage you to not polarize on this. The Vamp Skill Line has problems. Do I like it? Why sure. I understand the need to modernize and stay competitive with other games. What we are saying is for ZOS to take things slow. Many of us have been Stam Blades... ie.. Stam Bats... for years in the game under the Traditional Vampirism, which itself has worked amazingly well and favors both Mag and Stam builds.
However, this new direction clearly seems to favor Mag Bats (Magicka Vampire Builds), just like the new Vamp drinks buff Health, Health Recovery and Magicka. The new Stam drink is for WWs. So for a Stamina playing Vampire, we are getting hit with the Skill Cost Increase and a toolkit of skills that really do not seem to be intended for Stamina users, minus the sprint to cloak ability which I like. Judging by the bugs, Greymoor start date getting pushed back and feedback on here from other players I def would not say things are more than fine.Edited by Nagastani on May 2, 2020 6:11PM0 -
Nagastani✭✭✭✭darthgummibear_ESO wrote: »They dont want vampire to be used for its passives like it was before. The point of the changes is to make vampire usable on its own. The new vampire way wont be for everyone to just automatically have it on magicka characters. You would only get it if you wanted to use those skills. I tested it a bit today using my magblade vampire and only 1 non-vampire skill (soul siphon) and had a good time and no resource issues even at stage 4.
And what if you are stamina?
Then maybe you shouldn't be a vampire. Just like werewolf doesn't have synergy with a magicka build.
How do you figure WW's don't have synergy with a magicka build?
(I rewrote this to help provide clarity)
As you know, WW Heals are Magicka based. The WW Morph itself is based on Ultimate. Therefore, class passives which affect Ultimate or Magicka & Magicka Recovery will synergy with the WW system. The Templar class provides a Wep Dmg % passive so my Altmer WW Templar has a Resto Staff on the back bar and usually something like duel wield on the front where the WW Ult sits. While I'm in Cyrodiil sieging a keep my character provides heals and utility spams like Purge or Siege Shield for the group. In other words, WW is not useful at all times and it's in those times I heal and DPS, respectively outside of WW form. Then when the door comes down the main healer takes over and I switch to over to WW DPS. The statement that WW's can not synergy in a Magicka build just falls apart when you think about how the Templar class is the very definition of a WW running a Magicka build.
So maybe let's take a step back and leave it up to the player to decide what is best for them? Forcing people to pick and choose or telling us if we don't like the change to just leave, is not very friendly to the "Play Your Way" mentality. And to that extent, we are asking ZOS to please allow Vampirism to continue it's tradition of being impartial to mag or stam builds and please not setup barriers against Stam gameplay for those of us who have for years chosen for ourselves to play as Stam Bat with relatively no interference until now which goes against the "Play Your Way" concept.Edited by Nagastani on May 2, 2020 8:56PM5 -
Nagastani✭✭✭✭Then maybe you shouldn't be a vampire. Just like werewolf doesn't have synergy with a magicka build.
Then what if you're literally anything else but a MagBlade DPS?
Werewolf is usable with any role that isn't magicka. I get werewolf tanks in veteran dungeons all the time that run just fine in wolf form on trash mobs.
The new vampire doesn't work with stamina, but it also doesn't work with tanks or healers. In fact the new vampire rework is completely anti healer since they can't even heal you. I main a healer, and I promise any dps that gets themselves killed with the toggle is staying dead. I'm not wasting extra time or magicka hoping they have turned it off at the right times.
I agree with most of this however, remember the new Vampire Skill Line works with Stam but not very well and the new Vamp Skill Line seems to be partial to Mag Bats.
With that said, you are spot on about DPS and Healers having issues and getting themselves killed. What we need is more a good foundation for Vampirism, like we have had Traditionally and less flashy bells and whistles.
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Nagastani✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »This goes totally against "play your way" because...
That's not what that means. That's never been what that meant.
"Play your way," means that you can approach any content you want. If you want to focus on PvP, that's an option. If you want to focus on open world questing, that's an option. If you want to run group content, that's an option. If you want to build to endgame using crafted gear, you can do that.
However, "play your way," has never meant that you could fling random skills onto your bar and have an effective build off of that.
Your Stampire, right now, isn't a vampire, at least not thematically, it's a stam build that included vampirism for the passives. I know this, because only one of the current vampire active abilities is usable on a stam build, and that one is incredibly situational. So, no, this isn't a, "play your way," situation at all.
I agree with the first paragraph.
But whose flinging random skills around? I'm not certain where you get this from as I am specifically referring to the traditional vamp foundation that has existed in ESO for years, has been impartial to Stam or Mag builds and not the individual skills themselves. As a Stam Blade, I have put far more time and gold into these builds than I care to admit and have done tons of research surrounding each build type, including looking at how the build or character concept exists from outside sources. Please keep in mind, these are my builds and not Alcasts or Streamer builds. Nothing wrong with them I'm just saying. Please review my other posts on here if you want and you will see what I mean. But If ZOS decide the Vamp Skill Line should favor synergy in Mag builds and no longer offer the same for Stam builds, then no that is no longer "Play your Way" by their design. It can't be because my Stam Bat is not really playing as a Vampire proper when it has already done so for years before.
I completely disagree with your third paragraph. Surely you have watched movies like Underworld? Without getting into the weeds, Vampires in lore have been closer to humanoid form than monsters, though there are in Elder Scrolls Lore different Vampire types. Vampirism itself is just a mystical power. Its nature is both Magicka and Stam because the host entity is both Magicka and Stam in nature. Vampires in many sources of literature or media have significantly improved physical strength and speed, ie... Physical Damage.
It seems some of you guys are trying to prioritize the mystical benefits of being a Vampire without considering the fact that physical augmentation is also a mystical benefit.Edited by Nagastani on May 2, 2020 7:37PM4