Nobody will want to go past stage 1

Raammzzaa · April 2020

Saelent wrote: »

It really is a catch 22, if it is good to be a vampire then everyone will want to be a vampire, but if they make it bad to try and niche it, then barely anyone (other than RPers) will want to be a vampire.

I personally would give it a go, but the health drain of blood frenzy is just too high as is the cost increase of non-vampire skills. 10% would be acceptable and still keep some from wanting to be vampires.
Admittedly the high heath drain tied with the lowering of vampire skill cost does actually make sense. Still don’t like that 20% increase though.

I agree with this sentiment completely. I'm going to wait and see, but I can't imagine that I would really want stay a vampire with cost increases aggressive as these.

Charon_on_Vacation · April 2020

i assume you can't generate ultimate while you are in vampire lord form, right?
otherwise it would be quite possible to get 100% uptime on that.

MincVinyl · April 2020

It is sad to see so many people not even try to theory craft with the proposed cost increase system. I'm sure at some point a youtube build will come out showing how to build around cost increases like these, but it hurts to see so many people not even try anymore.

Stravokov · April 2020

i wouldn't mind playing with all vampire abilities, in fact i want too! but you have a melee/close range class with no gap closer. you have vamp abilities that drain health, with no real health recovery answer via the vamp skill line. it doesn't seem very thought out like the werewolf skill line.

they are already at a disadvantage with -100% health Regen, drain essence is pretty worthless... id like to use vampire abilities exclusively, but the current lineup just doesn't seem to work.

yodased · April 2020

Does the new bloody Mara that brings you to stage 4 work with clever alch?

Vevvev · April 2020

MincVinyl wrote: »

It is sad to see so many people not even try to theory craft with the proposed cost increase system. I'm sure at some point a youtube build will come out showing how to build around cost increases like these, but it hurts to see so many people not even try anymore.

If you've had the game change on you multiple times over the past year or so you just lose any energy to keep current and up to date. Sadly with the way vampire is now PVE people could find some uses out of it, but in PVP you're looking at a serious problem. Even stage 1 gives a 5% cost increase and anyone that has run New Moon Acolyte knows just how bad that cut into sustain can be. Its more manageable but still a problem in the long run, especially when fighting a tanky player.

starkerealm · April 2020

MincVinyl wrote: »

It is sad to see so many people not even try to theory craft with the proposed cost increase system. I'm sure at some point a youtube build will come out showing how to build around cost increases like these, but it hurts to see so many people not even try anymore.

Of course not. Actually testing takes effort, and Captain Spreadsheet has assured them there's no point to testing, when you can get everything you need by looking at the tool tip and throwing a tantrum.

From messing around with it a little, so long as at least 1/3 of your rotation's cost is from vampire skills, it's a net discount. So, you want the vampire spammible, which is mag melee, and dirt cheap if you're in stage 4... but, it's also magicka melee spam, which has never felt good to me, though I'm sure it's someone's jam. That's the biggest handicap. You're heavily incentivized to spam in the vampire tree.

starkerealm · April 2020

yodased wrote: »

Does the new bloody Mara that brings you to stage 4 work with clever alch?

It's a drink, not a potion...

Vevvev · April 2020

starkerealm wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

Does the new bloody Mara that brings you to stage 4 work with clever alch?

It's a drink, not a potion...

And that drink's innate health regeneration is at 0 thanks to the -100% health recovery.

MincVinyl · April 2020

Vevvev wrote: »

MincVinyl wrote: »

It is sad to see so many people not even try to theory craft with the proposed cost increase system. I'm sure at some point a youtube build will come out showing how to build around cost increases like these, but it hurts to see so many people not even try anymore.

If you've had the game change on you multiple times over the past year or so you just lose any energy to keep current and up to date. Sadly with the way vampire is now PVE people could find some uses out of it, but in PVP you're looking at a serious problem. Even stage 1 gives a 5% cost increase and anyone that has run New Moon Acolyte knows just how bad that cut into sustain can be. Its more manageable but still a problem in the long run, especially when fighting a tanky player.

^this right here is exactly what i mean, you are not even looking for ways to bypass or lessen the negative passives. Zos even spit the answer in your face to help you overcome it.

And yes I have had the game change on me, I have been playing since beta. Maining a bosmer stamsorc, which has not really seen meta since the IC days. My main form of playstyle has been removed from the game several times over to conform to players who can't think for themselves or care to learn more about the game mathematically or mechanically.

Paradisius · April 2020

Today I had an idea regarding Mist Form interactions with the new passive: Strike from the Shadows.
Mist form can be canceled out by bar swapping/blocking, and you still get the buff. So I had an idea: why not replace one of my dots with blood mist, so I could cancel it out with bar swap for some more weapon damage, while consuming alot less magicka (Blood Mist toggle is only 672 magicka person for me as a stage 4 vampire) And Im pretty surprised with the results!

I used the same "traditional type" equipment set up i did with a previous PTS vampire build (False Gods, Zaans, but full body spell parasite instead of something such as Mothers Sorrow) and instead of using soul trap on my back bar for dots, I used degeneration, and in place of my front bar dot I placed blood mist.

This is on a trial dummy as a Dark Elf, using a blood mara as the drink and the shadow mundus stone. I personally feel like with this level of sustain, I could go down to stage 3 (As Unnatural movement is not relevant in something like a trial) and still continue to use a normal setup (Zaans, Front bar Sorrow, full body false gods) by using blood mist right before I switch to my back bar and gain that 300 spell damage, I even purposely turned off frenzy at times (leaving only a 68% uptime overall) to simulate scenarios where having it up 100% of the time would not prove probable. As stated in my last ideas, this is no way supposed to be competitve, but it is fun to try out these things to make something that could work in whats considered "end game content" scenarios

Chilly-McFreeze · April 2020

MincVinyl wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

MincVinyl wrote: »

It is sad to see so many people not even try to theory craft with the proposed cost increase system. I'm sure at some point a youtube build will come out showing how to build around cost increases like these, but it hurts to see so many people not even try anymore.

If you've had the game change on you multiple times over the past year or so you just lose any energy to keep current and up to date. Sadly with the way vampire is now PVE people could find some uses out of it, but in PVP you're looking at a serious problem. Even stage 1 gives a 5% cost increase and anyone that has run New Moon Acolyte knows just how bad that cut into sustain can be. Its more manageable but still a problem in the long run, especially when fighting a tanky player.

^this right here is exactly what i mean, you are not even looking for ways to bypass or lessen the negative passives. Zos even spit the answer in your face to help you overcome it.

And yes I have had the game change on me, I have been playing since beta. Maining a bosmer stamsorc, which has not really seen meta since the IC days. My main form of playstyle has been removed from the game several times over to conform to players who can't think for themselves or care to learn more about the game mathematically or mechanically.

Meh. Sure, if you're going for a mag build it could be worth it but as it stands right now, non-ganking pvp stam seems to get even less out of it after the change. So why instantly bending my brain around something that is obviously not worth it on the chars I'd like to use it the most? You can't really blame people for not being happy about the (constant) changes.

MincVinyl · April 2020

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

MincVinyl wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

MincVinyl wrote: »

It is sad to see so many people not even try to theory craft with the proposed cost increase system. I'm sure at some point a youtube build will come out showing how to build around cost increases like these, but it hurts to see so many people not even try anymore.

If you've had the game change on you multiple times over the past year or so you just lose any energy to keep current and up to date. Sadly with the way vampire is now PVE people could find some uses out of it, but in PVP you're looking at a serious problem. Even stage 1 gives a 5% cost increase and anyone that has run New Moon Acolyte knows just how bad that cut into sustain can be. Its more manageable but still a problem in the long run, especially when fighting a tanky player.

^this right here is exactly what i mean, you are not even looking for ways to bypass or lessen the negative passives. Zos even spit the answer in your face to help you overcome it.

And yes I have had the game change on me, I have been playing since beta. Maining a bosmer stamsorc, which has not really seen meta since the IC days. My main form of playstyle has been removed from the game several times over to conform to players who can't think for themselves or care to learn more about the game mathematically or mechanically.

Meh. Sure, if you're going for a mag build it could be worth it but as it stands right now, non-ganking pvp stam seems to get even less out of it after the change. So why instantly bending my brain around something that is obviously not worth it on the chars I'd like to use it the most? You can't really blame people for not being happy about the (constant) changes.

For stam characters it is even easier to overcome the cost increase for later stages though, due to low cost stam abilities. Sure you will take a hit to your health recovery, but if you built towards general hps it would still do fine. I can see some players choosing to pick up the potential 1000+ wd and undeath from the vamp tree for losing 700-1100 health recov. Besides if they keep it the way it is stam will be able to build vamp probably the strongest

WhyMustItBe · April 2020

Wavek wrote: »

They dont want vampire to be used for its passives like it was before. The point of the changes is to make vampire usable on its own.

The problem is they have not given vampire a complete toolkit to do this. Also, werewolf still gets 15% stamina regen for having the ultimate slotted without transforming, so I don't think that is really their main goal here.

You don't get a vampire AOE. Blood Mist is a healing and defensive channel and you can't continue your normal rotation with it up without breaking it, plus it does half the damage of normal AOE like Endless Hail.

You don't get any vampire DoT's.

You don't get any significant vampire debuffs.

The one spammable you get requires a dangerous sub-50% health playstyle to be effective and is even then only marginally so. It lacks the punch of the werewolf nuke and they stack an INCREDIBLE amount of other benefits.

The downside of 20% cost to everything else, which will still make up the vast majority of your rotation, is simply over the top. Also the fact that the Scion ultimate does very little other than temporarily suspend this totally arbitrary and over the top penalty makes it feel, quite frankly, a little lazy.

It doesn't have cool animations and instead swings your weapon like a baseball bat in its huge monster hands (placeholder?).

It doesn't change gameplay in any meaningful way other than visuals.

For a detailed write-up of the problem check out this thread on the main discussion forum.

Also here:

Dear ZOS team,

I love the idea of new vampire actives, however I feel the current system as it stands is simply not up to the standards of the Elder Scrolls. The main reason is due to the ultimate transformation 1) not having a meaningful enough functionality beyond reducing a penalty that feels arbitrary and limits build diversity and 2) lacks unique animations commensurate to its size and purpose.

My suggestion thus far is as follows:

Make transforming into your Scion ultimate change the behavior of other vampire active abilities. Different Scion morphs could even change abilities in different ways, such that there could be a "tank" version and a "DPS" version.

Here is a video posted in the general discussion thread that showcases some possible visual effects for these changes (abilities of concern start at 2:02).

For example (current skills for reference):

Vampiric Drain becomes Blood Swarm which looks sort of like the vampire lord bat swarm teleport in Skyrim, or the dash ability in the above video, causing you to dash to your target as a bloody bat swarm doing damage and healing from any enemy you pass through on the way, and temporarily burst in an AOE damage explosion on arrival, all while applying the standard morph effects. A debuff/cooldown could be added to keep the ultimate or magicka generation potential from becoming imbalanced. The tank version could stun and/or debuff.
Blood Mist becomes Sanguine Squall which now allows casting other VAMPIRE abilities without breaking the toggle and has a cool new ground swarm visual similar to the video that moves with your character, and does double normal damage. Tank version could possible slow and/or debuff.
Eviscerate and morphs work much the same but use a no-weapon animation similar to werewold to make Scion look more like the terrible beast it is (somehow a huge vampiric monster swatting at you with a baseball bat staff seems comical to me). Can be designed so that light attacks weave into the left-right animation seamlessly or that both alternate on the same animation cycle so using either Eviscerate or a light attack will keep up the animation sequence. Heavy attacks can do some really cool animation as well.
Mesmerize behaves mechanically much the same, only it affects enemies NOT facing you as well. Tank version can also silence ranged attacks after the stun ends.

In addition, normal ability cost penalty at Rank 1 should be 0% scaling up from there, with slightly higher fire vulnerability, capping at 25% at rank 4.

I hope you will consider it. There is still plenty of time my sweet. Plenty of time!

Vevvev · April 2020

MincVinyl wrote: »

^this right here is exactly what i mean, you are not even looking for ways to bypass or lessen the negative passives. Zos even spit the answer in your face to help you overcome it.

And yes I have had the game change on me, I have been playing since beta. Maining a bosmer stamsorc, which has not really seen meta since the IC days. My main form of playstyle has been removed from the game several times over to conform to players who can't think for themselves or care to learn more about the game mathematically or mechanically.

My main hasn't even been a vampire for over a year, and I've never played the meta and always made my own fun builds for both PVE and PVP. Crunching the numbers and getting better and better as time went on. I've been thinking about making my MagDK a vampire again once Greymoor came out but with these changes I might just skip the whole thing entirely.

I've worked with New Moon Acolyte several times and have tried several combinations to make it work for me. That cost increase on a magDK is significant and I've had to set it aside for other sets like draugrkin, elemental succession, and spell strategist. And this issue gets worse when I play no CP Cyrodiil or enter Battlegrounds with that NMA set. Its truly not something players should have to deal with at the values that they are at.

The reason people are not happy with vampire right now is it is not fun to play as on the PTS. You can get it to work, and get some high numbers on a target dummy, but its not viable in practice to suffer through a debuff like that. There is also the issue with Tanks and Healers being unable to even really take advantage of the skill line due to how its set up on the PTS. Like for example if a tank wanted to get the damage reduction passive they need to be at stage 3 vampirisim which gives them 15% increased costs to everything. A lot of good tanks I know run block cost reduction enchantments due to the fact its already a pain in the rear to manage resources as it is ((made even worse by a group that doesn't use orbs and other synergies)). They don't have a whole lot of flexibility to find ways around that cost increase like a damage dealer would be able to.

JinxxND · April 2020

Before vampire was used for the passives the negatives is that you would take super charged fire dmg and if you pvp you would take super charged dawnbreaker and fighters guild skills. Now it just seems like an RP thing with the cost increase to everything like NMA but worse for getting cheap vampire skills on top of still taking the super charged fire and anti undead skills.

I think if anything to balance it out they should remove the increase cost to all ability and either increase the fire and damage abilities to them further up to maybe 35% like dawnbreaker and decrease the cost reduction to vamp abilities that way you still have to commit to the risk reward of being a vamp and it still ends up being more severe then old vampire but not completely useless outside of RP or some group running a bunch of sustain synergies (which btw promotes more ball groups that lag the server and decrease performance)

starkerealm · April 2020

Vevvev wrote: »

I've been thinking about making my MagDK a vampire again once Greymoor came out but with these changes I might just skip the whole thing entirely.

Mag DK might actually be the best choice for a vampire post-Graymoore. A strong self heal, lots of melee options, buffs to melee range (remember your vampire spam is melee), battle roar, strong shields.

This could be a very good idea.

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe · April 2020

MincVinyl wrote: »

It is sad to see so many people not even try to theory craft with the proposed cost increase system. I'm sure at some point a youtube build will come out showing how to build around cost increases like these, but it hurts to see so many people not even try anymore.

Probably because as soon as people do adapt and make amazing builds, zos inevitably nerfs them into obscurity and uselessness one by one because anything that works is deemed over powered. There literally is no point anymore.

JinxxND · April 2020

Lol forget about mDK that cost increase on everything will be impossible

Vevvev · April 2020

starkerealm wrote: »

Mag DK might actually be the best choice for a vampire post-Graymoore. A strong self heal, lots of melee options, buffs to melee range (remember your vampire spam is melee), battle roar, strong shields.

This could be a very good idea.

Yeah, I know. I even posted about how MagDK would be a great choice on the thread "Which class will work best with the vampire rework" ((Or whatever the title was))

The issue is that self heal is EXPENSIVE! I mean have you taken a look at the cost of Coagulating Blood recently? I managed to get it down to 3,536 magicka with my Breton racials and 6 pieces of light armor. That's a 19% cost decrease if you want the math for it. I take all that away and it costs 4,320 magicka to use. That's a 784 magicka difference and that's just for one skill in your DK's skill bar.

The only things a DK brings to vampirisim is the melee range increase and battle roar. You can just throw your heals and your strong shields out the window since you'll chugging potions like crazy to keep them and your damage up at the same time. Also if you're trying to use Blood Frenzy while getting whacked by another player with a bursty build.... good luck.

WhyMustItBe · April 2020

MincVinyl wrote: »

It is sad to see so many people not even try to theory craft with the proposed cost increase system. I'm sure at some point a youtube build will come out showing how to build around cost increases like these, but it hurts to see so many people not even try anymore.

I don't think that is the case. Many of us HAVE theory crafted this, and the numbers simply do not add up.

There do of course exist some niche possibilities, like building to be a PVP suicide bomber.

You could also potentially stack regen sets and rely on the damage bonus from the vampire toggle to bring your spellpower back up to normal levels, but that is a ton of work just to get back to the level of say, a mortal character wearing Julianos + Necropotence or some other such easy combo.

Even if you did that however, you would be suffering a very hectic playstyle of having your health constantly drained, and having to stay below 50% health to do effective damage (since regen sets also nerf your crit), and for all that and even when executed well, you are basically doing a ton more work and incurring a lot more risk just to get back to the same place you would be as a non-vamp in normal sets, which you still won't be able to do without using non-vampire abilities due to the reasons outlined below.

The risk vs. reward simply isn't there with the current 20% ability cost and low health playstyle.

The low health style itself is fine, IF the cost penalty was removed or seriously reduced from normal abilities, which will still need to make up the majority of any viable rotation as:

1) Vampires do not have a viable alternative to non-vampire AOE.
2) Vampires do not have a viable alternative to non-vampire DoTs.
3) Vampires have no abilities that heal others.
3) Vampires have no source of major defenses, taunts, or pulls for tanking.

The idea is cool in theory but the cost increase to normal abilities and lack of cool changes to abilities when transformed to make the ultimate feel meaningful (plus lack of cool animations for the ultimate Scion rather than swinging your weapon in it's huge monster hand like a fly swatter) leave it feeling incomplete at this point.

It really just ends up making vampire non-viable for anything other than niche PVP bomber builds and RP, and eliminates the vast bulk of build diversity for really no reason and not much gain which is really pretty bad in a game advertised as "play as you want."

I am hoping it will fill out a bit more as the PTS cycle continues.

Here are my suggestions for a possible solution.

Even with the above changes (which I feel are necessary to make the Scion feel like more than a huge monster swinging a fly swatter), most people would probably not feed past Rank 1 as the majority of your rotation will still need to come from non-vampire abilities.

daemonor · April 2020

Vevvev wrote: »

MincVinyl wrote: »

^this right here is exactly what i mean, you are not even looking for ways to bypass or lessen the negative passives. Zos even spit the answer in your face to help you overcome it.

And yes I have had the game change on me, I have been playing since beta. Maining a bosmer stamsorc, which has not really seen meta since the IC days. My main form of playstyle has been removed from the game several times over to conform to players who can't think for themselves or care to learn more about the game mathematically or mechanically.

My main hasn't even been a vampire for over a year, and I've never played the meta and always made my own fun builds for both PVE and PVP. Crunching the numbers and getting better and better as time went on. I've been thinking about making my MagDK a vampire again once Greymoor came out but with these changes I might just skip the whole thing entirely.

I've worked with New Moon Acolyte several times and have tried several combinations to make it work for me. That cost increase on a magDK is significant and I've had to set it aside for other sets like draugrkin, elemental succession, and spell strategist. And this issue gets worse when I play no CP Cyrodiil or enter Battlegrounds with that NMA set. Its truly not something players should have to deal with at the values that they are at.

The reason people are not happy with vampire right now is it is not fun to play as on the PTS. You can get it to work, and get some high numbers on a target dummy, but its not viable in practice to suffer through a debuff like that. There is also the issue with Tanks and Healers being unable to even really take advantage of the skill line due to how its set up on the PTS. Like for example if a tank wanted to get the damage reduction passive they need to be at stage 3 vampirisim which gives them 15% increased costs to everything. A lot of good tanks I know run block cost reduction enchantments due to the fact its already a pain in the rear to manage resources as it is ((made even worse by a group that doesn't use orbs and other synergies)). They don't have a whole lot of flexibility to find ways around that cost increase like a damage dealer would be able to.

Have to agree on this one, after finishing dummy humping for 3 days I decided I want to check some pvp changes, and guess what - you can't. 2 hours in bg que, IC is empty so is cyrodil. After 1 hour of spamming chat I found a mate whom we had duels with for a good hour. But that's about it. There's no way currently to extensively test all the stuff thats added on the pts.

I have some good news for you tho, going with the 5 siroria 5 elf bane and 2 ilambris set up with the old asylum rotation i managed to pull 85k dps on a trial dummy by replacing force pulse with blood for blood vampire spammable. There's still hope for mag dks but that means losing the range most likely.

OmniDo · April 2020

There needs to be a clear distinction between "Play as you want", versus "Play as you must."

Anyone can create a completely nonsensical build and go out into the overland, light or heavy attacking, and still succeed with even a medocum of effort. But that doesn't mean they will be *optimal*.
META will always be more effective, regardless of whether the playstyle is preferred by anyone.

What Z0$ is doing (currently) is forcing the META for vampires to be unenjoyable by many, myself included, in response to marginalized feedback.

It was never about "Play as you want", but rather: "Play as Z0$ wants", in order to control potential profit impact. If the majority of the marginalized feedback indicates a potential significant profit loss, then the people who make the investment decisions will force changes to the system, regardless of the approval or lack thereof from the rest.

I hate everything about the current changes, with the exception of the concept of an expanded skill line, and the NPC reactions at various stages.
I don't approve of or agree with:

The stage feeding inversion
The arbitrary, noncanonical cost increase to non-vamp abilities
The total lack of effective ranged abilities
The "Kill yourself for equal-level power" requirement

None of this is consistent with established Elder Scrolls lore, and effectively defecates on the paradigm.
Get it through your thick skulls... VAMPIRES ARE IMMORTAL.
It's written in your own lore, Zenimax, as an excerpt from Civility And Etiquette V5: Undead illustrates:

...there are those among the post-living that possess or have achieved sentience, like vampires, liches, and wraiths. Dialogue is possible with creatures such as these, as long as one keeps certain discretions in mind:

1. An undead who speaks is bound to be powerful. Any creature whose magic is potent enough to allow it sentience in death deserves an Altmer’s begrudging admiration.

2. An undead can never be trusted. Though we should respect the undead and their power, all undead want something from the living, and there is little to stop them from taking it. An Altmer must remain guarded in their presence. Always.

3. An undead might not be as she appears. Many powerful mages possess illusory spells to alter their appearance, and so, too, do the undead. The wandering spirit of a lost child could be a starving lich in disguise.

Think of the undead as elders: powerful, unflinching, and prone to anger.

Elsonso · April 2020

MincVinyl wrote: »

It is sad to see so many people not even try to theory craft with the proposed cost increase system. I'm sure at some point a youtube build will come out showing how to build around cost increases like these, but it hurts to see so many people not even try anymore.

There are people who are theory crafting this, I am sure. ZOS is watching what is happening on PTS and taking whatever feedback they can get. The more people who do it the better the feedback, of course. If I were ZOS, I would prioritize what I see happening on PTS over what people say in the forum.

Kalante · April 2020

Iskiab wrote: »

I don’t have too much of an issue with vampire cost increases for non-vampire abilities, but it should be toned down.

Things like ultimates, blocking, dodge rolling are effected by the cost increase making vampire difficult to build around.

A better setup would be to exclude certain things like dodge rolling, and maybe stage 1 have no downside or halve the negative to non-vampire abilities.

Otherwise it’d be like a set that only increases one skill line’s damage, who uses those? Too niche.

wait, the [snip] vampire also increase your ultimate? wow. Who would wanna fight using vampire when werewolf is clearly the ultimate chad.

[edited for profanity]

navystylz_ESO · April 2020

Vevvev wrote: »

The reason people are not happy with vampire right now is it is not fun to play as on the PTS. You can get it to work, and get some high numbers on a target dummy, but its not viable in practice to suffer through a debuff like that. There is also the issue with Tanks and Healers being unable to even really take advantage of the skill line due to how its set up on the PTS. Like for example if a tank wanted to get the damage reduction passive they need to be at stage 3 vampirisim which gives them 15% increased costs to everything. A lot of good tanks I know run block cost reduction enchantments due to the fact its already a pain in the rear to manage resources as it is ((made even worse by a group that doesn't use orbs and other synergies)). They don't have a whole lot of flexibility to find ways around that cost increase like a damage dealer would be able to.

I mean... wouldn't that make the tonal converter mythic perfect for this guy?

navystylz_ESO · April 2020

JinxxND wrote: »

I think if anything to balance it out they should remove the increase cost to all ability and either increase the fire and damage abilities to them further up to maybe 35% like dawnbreaker and decrease the cost reduction to vamp abilities that way you still have to commit to the risk reward of being a vamp and it still ends up being more severe then old vampire but not completely useless outside of RP or some group running a bunch of sustain synergies (which btw promotes more ball groups that lag the server and decrease performance)

People are already saying playing with your health draining can already be a dangerous thing, and your answer is to make them take more damage? No, making it so vampires can faceplant even easier isn't the answer to an increase cost because no one wants to build around the increased cost to abilities.

It might do to have stage 4 not ramp up so high in cost to normal skills, but that this conversation is so controversial means it's doing it's intent. Really making people weight to pros and cons of being a vampire, instead of going "take away he penalties so I don't have to question slapping on vampire and calling it a day."

At the same time, they really need to do something so that vampires who are stage 4 aren't feeling like they're becoming a weaker player, when someone in stage 1 can get all the benefits of the abilities and choose to stay stage 1. Giving up the passives are a much easier pill to swallow, than being stage 4 and having abilities that won't necessarily compete with a stage 1 without some tweaks to abilities.

Chelo · April 2020

darthgummibear_ESO wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

darthgummibear_ESO wrote: »

Wavek wrote: »

They dont want vampire to be used for its passives like it was before. The point of the changes is to make vampire usable on its own. The new vampire way wont be for everyone to just automatically have it on magicka characters. You would only get it if you wanted to use those skills. I tested it a bit today using my magblade vampire and only 1 non-vampire skill (soul siphon) and had a good time and no resource issues even at stage 4.

And what if you are stamina?

Then maybe you shouldn't be a vampire. Just like werewolf doesn't have synergy with a magicka build.

I've been playing that kind of vampire since daggerfall in the 90's. If zos is saying I can't do that anymore I should just uninstall the game and go back to playing skyrim.

Then you should go back to play Skyrim... This is an MMO, not a single player game. To all Elder Scrolls players, you can't be the "master of everything" in an MMO.

It's always annoying when people said "In Skyrim I can do this or that, etc". Yeah you can surely be the best player in a single player game... Not gonna happen here...

OmniDo · April 2020

Chelo wrote: »

Then you should go back to play Skyrim... This is an MMO, not a single player game. To all Elder Scrolls players, you can't be the "master of everything" in an MMO.

I most certainly can.
I might not be able to solo the entire game, but I can most definitely master everything in this MMO.
Your statement is invalid.

It's always annoying when people said "In Skyrim I can do this or that, etc". Yeah you can surely be the best player in a single player game... Not gonna happen here...

Speak for yourself sir.
Don't try to hold myself or others to your limited expectations. You will fail.

ElliottXO · April 2020

Just watched Alcast's video on vampires.

Vampires will be fine; and I can promise you that within the first month of release there will be the first broken Vampire builds running around (e.g. by fully exploiting the 60% vampire ability cost decrease with the set bonus).

Of course, slapping on vampire just for 2 passives won't work anymore. Get over it.