Make 25% Increase Mythic Band NOT WORK on Proc Sets

Wuuffyy · April 2020

One of the new mythic items, increase all DMG by 25% in exchange for crit damage.

This should NOT work for proc sets. This is a PVP only set, of course. With the newly decreased tank sets, the sweeping lower heals, and the fact that crit damage isn’t near as valuable in PVP, and THE INCREASED DAMAGE on PROC SETS... Following our new standards, this, again, shouldn’t be able to work on Proc sets (plus crit doesn’t even buff these and they are still strong)

idk · April 2020

That is a good point since proc sets cannot crit this new item should not buff proc set damage. Only real justification and only one needed.

Has anyone actually tested to see if the Malacath’s Band of Brutality buffs proc sets?

Wuuffyy · April 2020

idk wrote: »

That is a good point since proc sets cannot crit this new item should not buff proc set damage. Only real justification and only one needed.

Has anyone actually tested to see if the Malacath’s Band of Brutality buffs proc sets?

Last time I checked, it does.

Chrlynsch · April 2020

Have you encountered someone on the pts using this combo?

usmcjdking · April 2020

A lot of these new items are too simple in design and don't scale appropriately. MA/LA users who usually have around 40% crit and 60-70% CHD will see no performance increase. But the 22%, 50% CHC/CHD HA builds that already have 6k weapon damage? Yeah, no Bueno.

This ring needs to be reworked.

1% dmg for every 2% of crit. 50 pen for even point of CHD. Let it scale appropriately at least.

Wuuffyy · April 2020

usmcjdking wrote: »

A lot of these new items are too simple in design and don't scale appropriately. MA/LA users who usually have around 40% crit and 60-70% CHD will see no performance increase. But the 22%, 50% CHC/CHD HA builds that already have 6k weapon damage? Yeah, no Bueno.

This ring needs to be reworked.

1% dmg for every 2% of crit. 50 pen for even point of CHD. Let it scale appropriately at least.

I feel like that’s to strong of a nerf. The point is to build around it, doing this means your also going to have to build crit and THEN trade it all.

usmcjdking · April 2020

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

A lot of these new items are too simple in design and don't scale appropriately. MA/LA users who usually have around 40% crit and 60-70% CHD will see no performance increase. But the 22%, 50% CHC/CHD HA builds that already have 6k weapon damage? Yeah, no Bueno.

This ring needs to be reworked.

1% dmg for every 2% of crit. 50 pen for even point of CHD. Let it scale appropriately at least.

I feel like that’s to strong of a nerf. The point is to build around it, doing this means your also going to have to build crit and THEN trade it all.

It's not THAT strong of a nerf. Base crit in CP PVP is 16/50, so at the minimum it's still 8% dmg 2500 pen.

Lughlongarm · April 2020

The all point of this item is proc sets. If it can't work with proc sets penalty takes as much damage as this item gives.

satanio · April 2020

idk wrote: »

That is a good point since proc sets cannot crit this new item should not buff proc set damage. Only real justification and only one needed.

Has anyone actually tested to see if the Malacath’s Band of Brutality buffs proc sets?

It should buff everything, just as Major Berserk or Major Slayer does - the only needed justification.

And yes, it does buff proc sets and should remain buffing them.

jaws343 · April 2020

There is still a trade off, you lose a monster set or a 5 piece set. So you lose 1 proc set from a normal setup. Plus you also lose all crit damage from normal skills. It is perfectly reasonable that this works for proc sets and any damage you do.

Wuuffyy · April 2020

usmcjdking wrote: »

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

A lot of these new items are too simple in design and don't scale appropriately. MA/LA users who usually have around 40% crit and 60-70% CHD will see no performance increase. But the 22%, 50% CHC/CHD HA builds that already have 6k weapon damage? Yeah, no Bueno.

This ring needs to be reworked.

1% dmg for every 2% of crit. 50 pen for even point of CHD. Let it scale appropriately at least.

I feel like that’s to strong of a nerf. The point is to build around it, doing this means your also going to have to build crit and THEN trade it all.

It's not THAT strong of a nerf. Base crit in CP PVP is 16/50, so at the minimum it's still 8% dmg 2500 pen.

You would be stacking crit to do that. The ring in all aspects except proc sets is a relatively even trade of when you think of the item in 1 v x or x v x performance. This make a completely uneven trade off where you are losing out even more by having to stack the crit and crit damage.

Wuuffyy · April 2020

jaws343 wrote: »

There is still a trade off, you lose a monster set or a 5 piece set. So you lose 1 proc set from a normal setup. Plus you also lose all crit damage from normal skills. It is perfectly reasonable that this works for proc sets and any damage you do.

Could you imagine getting hit ST with a Zaan buffed by this or constant skorias hitting for 25% more. That’s a problem.

The whole reason procs where nerfed in the way they were is that they had too much up front burst damage for pvp (and way to much damage in pve), and this does exactly that. Front loads all procs to hit super hard.

usmcjdking · April 2020

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

A lot of these new items are too simple in design and don't scale appropriately. MA/LA users who usually have around 40% crit and 60-70% CHD will see no performance increase. But the 22%, 50% CHC/CHD HA builds that already have 6k weapon damage? Yeah, no Bueno.

This ring needs to be reworked.

1% dmg for every 2% of crit. 50 pen for even point of CHD. Let it scale appropriately at least.

I feel like that’s to strong of a nerf. The point is to build around it, doing this means your also going to have to build crit and THEN trade it all.

It's not THAT strong of a nerf. Base crit in CP PVP is 16/50, so at the minimum it's still 8% dmg 2500 pen.

You would be stacking crit to do that. The ring in all aspects except proc sets is a relatively even trade of when you think of the item in 1 v x or x v x performance. This make a completely uneven trade off where you are losing out even more by having to stack the crit and crit damage.

It's not an even trade off at ALL. My current MA build would invariably LOSE damage by throwing on this ring, whilst my HA Magplar just gets a flat buff with little trade off.

Universe · April 2020

Balance wise I kind of agree.
Though if you remove the bonus from proc sets it's kind of making this mythic item less useful.
Anyway, it's too early to tell and more testing is needed.

Chrlynsch · April 2020

How is the procer going to survive after they gutted healing?

idk · April 2020

usmcjdking wrote: »

A lot of these new items are too simple in design and don't scale appropriately. MA/LA users who usually have around 40% crit and 60-70% CHD will see no performance increase. But the 22%, 50% CHC/CHD HA builds that already have 6k weapon damage? Yeah, no Bueno.

This ring needs to be reworked.

1% dmg for every 2% of crit. 50 pen for even point of CHD. Let it scale appropriately at least.

Buff to some tanky builds. Good point.

Dracane · April 2020

Universe wrote: »

Balance wise I kind of agree.
Though if you remove the bonus from proc sets it's kind of making this mythic item less useful.
Anyway, it's too early to tell and more testing is needed.

There is no harm in making it less attractive to the mainstream.
Having it add to proc sets might indeed not be the best idea.

itscompton · April 2020

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

One of the new mythic items, increase all DMG by 25% in exchange for crit damage.

This should NOT work for proc sets. This is a PVP only set, of course. With the newly decreased tank sets, the sweeping lower heals, and the fact that crit damage isn’t near as valuable in PVP, and THE INCREASED DAMAGE on PROC SETS... Following our new standards, this, again, shouldn’t be able to work on Proc sets (plus crit doesn’t even buff these and they are still strong)

Not arguing that this set doesn't seem crazy strong but crit damage is going to be a much bigger deal in Cyro after the update.

Traits - Reduced the armor trait Impenetrable to 172, down from 258. (7x172=1204, 7x258=1806)

Robes of Transmutation: This set now grants 1400 Critical Resistance for 5 seconds when the proc conditions are met, rather than 1304 for 20 seconds.

Impregnable Armor: This set now grants 1650 Critical Resistance, down from 2000.

So most PvP builds will take an extra 8-10% more damage from Crits with the Impen nerf, and keeping Transmutation up on groups will be much harder with the reduced timer.
Even on live I think Crit damage is undervalued in PvP as the average player has between 2500-3000 Crit resist. Each 68 points of resist negates 1% extra damage from a crit so at 3000 resist you still take 6% extra from a base Crit modifier, if the person doing the damage has 40 points in Crit damage CP you'll take 22% more damage, if they have minor force 32% more.
Now shave off the 600 crit resist from almost every build in Cyro and even a character on the higher end of averages for Crit resist is taking 40% extra damage from those crits

Sanguinor2 · April 2020

itscompton wrote: »

Not arguing that this set doesn't seem crazy strong but crit damage is going to be a much bigger deal in Cyro after the update.

Traits - Reduced the armor trait Impenetrable to 172, down from 258. (7x172=1204, 7x258=1806)

Robes of Transmutation: This set now grants 1400 Critical Resistance for 5 seconds when the proc conditions are met, rather than 1304 for 20 seconds.

Impregnable Armor: This set now grants 1650 Critical Resistance, down from 2000.

So most PvP builds will take an extra 8-10% more damage from Crits with the Impen nerf, and keeping Transmutation up on groups will be much harder with the reduced timer.
Even on live I think Crit damage is undervalued in PvP as the average player has between 2500-3000 Crit resist. Each 68 points of resist negates 1% extra damage from a crit so at 3000 resist you still take 6% extra from a base Crit modifier, if the person doing the damage has 40 points in Crit damage CP you'll take 22% more damage, if they have minor force 32% more.
Now shave off the 600 crit resist from almost every build in Cyro and even a character on the higher end of averages for Crit resist is taking 40% extra damage from those crits

We dont know the baseline crit resist yet that Zos wanted to add since they forgot it for the first pts patch (unless they updated something?). You will likely still be Right, just something to consider.

validifyedneb18_ESO · April 2020

idk wrote: »

That is a good point since proc sets cannot crit this new item should not buff proc set damage. Only real justification and only one needed.

Has anyone actually tested to see if the Malacath’s Band of Brutality buffs proc sets?

I agree with this because procs have needed to be nerfed in the past to avoid 1shotting in PVP, but as a counter I would say that mathematically the ring probably isnt that good, and this could be its edge.

Templar/NB + Trap = 70% crit damage, 25/70 = 35.7% effective crit damage, as crit % is on a logarithmic scale with crit value, most builds will without even trying end up with 20-30% crit minium. You're getting quite a small margin of extra damage at the cost of a whole set.

There are a few potential saving graces; This topic (non-critting proc sets), if Trap Beast can be replaced with something that adds a decent amount more DPS, ??? (idk other stuff, who knows)

Dracane · April 2020

itscompton wrote: »

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

One of the new mythic items, increase all DMG by 25% in exchange for crit damage.

This should NOT work for proc sets. This is a PVP only set, of course. With the newly decreased tank sets, the sweeping lower heals, and the fact that crit damage isn’t near as valuable in PVP, and THE INCREASED DAMAGE on PROC SETS... Following our new standards, this, again, shouldn’t be able to work on Proc sets (plus crit doesn’t even buff these and they are still strong)

Not arguing that this set doesn't seem crazy strong but crit damage is going to be a much bigger deal in Cyro after the update.

Traits - Reduced the armor trait Impenetrable to 172, down from 258. (7x172=1204, 7x258=1806)

Robes of Transmutation: This set now grants 1400 Critical Resistance for 5 seconds when the proc conditions are met, rather than 1304 for 20 seconds.

Impregnable Armor: This set now grants 1650 Critical Resistance, down from 2000.

So most PvP builds will take an extra 8-10% more damage from Crits with the Impen nerf, and keeping Transmutation up on groups will be much harder with the reduced timer.
Even on live I think Crit damage is undervalued in PvP as the average player has between 2500-3000 Crit resist. Each 68 points of resist negates 1% extra damage from a crit so at 3000 resist you still take 6% extra from a base Crit modifier, if the person doing the damage has 40 points in Crit damage CP you'll take 22% more damage, if they have minor force 32% more.
Now shave off the 600 crit resist from almost every build in Cyro and even a character on the higher end of averages for Crit resist is taking 40% extra damage from those crits

66 crit resistence is 1% I think. It has to be.
So they have a bit more resistence still.

An entire set impenetrable still grants 18% crit mititgation. This is still way too overtuned and no other trait will be useful or in consideration. I think 1 piece should not offer more than 1% crit mitigation to bring it in line with how weak other traits are, provided the base resistence we get is high enough.

I have hope left yet that this is only the first stage of the update. No adjustements to other traits in order to make them more attractive? No class changes? There must be more somewhere.

validifyedneb18_ESO · April 2020

usmcjdking wrote: »

A lot of these new items are too simple in design and don't scale appropriately. MA/LA users who usually have around 40% crit and 60-70% CHD will see no performance increase. But the 22%, 50% CHC/CHD HA builds that already have 6k weapon damage? Yeah, no Bueno.

This ring needs to be reworked.

1% dmg for every 2% of crit. 50 pen for even point of CHD. Let it scale appropriately at least.

I think the point of the ring is to change the way you make your build, while your suggestion is good it would basically make it no different to standard play with crit, just a little less RNG like that even matters much.

Langeston · April 2020

Has anyone even checked to see if the ring affects proc sets? I was on the PTS last night & it didn't affect the tooltip on Caluurion at all, but Slimecraw did.

[edit] Although it occurs to me that proccing Caluurion would be impossible with this ring, lol. It didn't affect Zaan either though.

Dracane · April 2020

Langeston wrote: »

Has anyone even checked to see if the ring affects proc sets? I was on the PTS last night & it didn't affect the tooltip on Caluurion at all, but Slimecraw did.

The ring is currently bugged and often has no effect at all.
I do not know what causes it. Sometimes it adds damage and sometimes not to the same ability.

Wuuffyy · April 2020

Dracane wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

Has anyone even checked to see if the ring affects proc sets? I was on the PTS last night & it didn't affect the tooltip on Caluurion at all, but Slimecraw did.

The ring is currently bugged and often has no effect at all.
I do not know what causes it. Sometimes it adds damage and sometimes not to the same ability.

Is it. That’s really weird.

Wuuffyy · April 2020

Dracane wrote: »

itscompton wrote: »

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

One of the new mythic items, increase all DMG by 25% in exchange for crit damage.

This should NOT work for proc sets. This is a PVP only set, of course. With the newly decreased tank sets, the sweeping lower heals, and the fact that crit damage isn’t near as valuable in PVP, and THE INCREASED DAMAGE on PROC SETS... Following our new standards, this, again, shouldn’t be able to work on Proc sets (plus crit doesn’t even buff these and they are still strong)

Not arguing that this set doesn't seem crazy strong but crit damage is going to be a much bigger deal in Cyro after the update.

Traits - Reduced the armor trait Impenetrable to 172, down from 258. (7x172=1204, 7x258=1806)

Robes of Transmutation: This set now grants 1400 Critical Resistance for 5 seconds when the proc conditions are met, rather than 1304 for 20 seconds.

Impregnable Armor: This set now grants 1650 Critical Resistance, down from 2000.

So most PvP builds will take an extra 8-10% more damage from Crits with the Impen nerf, and keeping Transmutation up on groups will be much harder with the reduced timer.
Even on live I think Crit damage is undervalued in PvP as the average player has between 2500-3000 Crit resist. Each 68 points of resist negates 1% extra damage from a crit so at 3000 resist you still take 6% extra from a base Crit modifier, if the person doing the damage has 40 points in Crit damage CP you'll take 22% more damage, if they have minor force 32% more.
Now shave off the 600 crit resist from almost every build in Cyro and even a character on the higher end of averages for Crit resist is taking 40% extra damage from those crits

66 crit resistence is 1% I think. It has to be.
So they have a bit more resistence still.

An entire set impenetrable still grants 18% crit mititgation. This is still way too overtuned and no other trait will be useful or in consideration. I think 1 piece should not offer more than 1% crit mitigation to bring it in line with how weak other traits are, provided the base resistence we get is high enough.

I have hope left yet that this is only the first stage of the update. No adjustements to other traits in order to make them more attractive? No class changes? There must be more somewhere.

That’s more and unnecessary calculations for the server also.

Cres · April 2020

Langeston wrote: »

Has anyone even checked to see if the ring affects proc sets? I was on the PTS last night & it didn't affect the tooltip on Caluurion at all, but Slimecraw did.

[edit] Although it occurs to me that proccing Caluurion would be impossible with this ring, lol. It didn't affect Zaan either though.

I tested it quickly with Velidreth and Red Mountain, tool tip does not change.

Veli:
Proc'd 5 times on target dummy, each hit 11381

With ring on, another 5 times, each hit 13413

Red Mountain:
WIthout: 7951
With Ring: 9445

Yiko · April 2020

usmcjdking wrote: »

A lot of these new items are too simple in design and don't scale appropriately. MA/LA users who usually have around 40% crit and 60-70% CHD will see no performance increase. But the 22%, 50% CHC/CHD HA builds that already have 6k weapon damage? Yeah, no Bueno.

This ring needs to be reworked.

usmcjdking wrote: »

It's not an even trade off at ALL. My current MA build would invariably LOSE damage by throwing on this ring, whilst my HA Magplar just gets a flat buff with little trade off.

This man @usmcjdking knows what he's talking about. Malacath ring is grossly overtuned and is fundamentally poorly conceived.

Sorcs cannot use this ring if they're using Critical Surge. Stamplars and Nightblades lose value from their class abilities/passives and have much higher tradeoff than something like a Heavy Armor (passively tankier + more % health) build with 16% crit, baseline 50% CHD, and proc sets. The latter build is MUCH easier to play and is still very effective. By effectively removing crit from the equation, they can budget their build around other stat increases, like the new (also poorly conceived) set that gives 15k penetration. Just like with Onslaught, ZOS is giving tanky builds too much value for virtually no reason.

7/7 Impen in noCP on live gives 1806 Critical Resistance, which translates to about 26.6% critical hit damage reduction. Classes have baseline 50% critical hit damage. 50 - 26.6 = 23.4% CHD.... Malacath Ring is literally stronger than base CHD against properly geared opponents, and that DOESN'T EVEN TAKE INTO CONSIDERATION CRIT CHANCE.

Let's look at a Medium armor build with 6x pieces of Medium Armor. At 328 Crit Rating per piece of Medium armor, you're looking at around 9% Crit Chance. Let's add in 823 Crit Rating from New Moon Acolyte to get another 3.8% Crit Chance. Base 16% crit + 9.1% +3.8%= 28.8% crit chance. Let's take our 23.4% Critical Hit Damage and multiply that by our Crit Chance to get 6.74% average damage increase over time. That is not even remotely close to the average damage gain you'd get by just throwing on a Malacath Ring. Even if you got extremely lucky with your crits in a burst attempt and crit EVERYTHING, you'd still do less damage than you did if you had a Malacath Ring equipped in this context. Do note that Crit + CHD damage builds that achieve maybe 45% CHD over full Impen targets WILL achieve more damage with a string of lucky crits, but they have to make large sacrifices to reach that point in their builds + also rely on RNG. Malacath builds will have to sacrifice very little in comparison to reach similar damage output.

This also doesn't take into account that the ring completely invalidates Impen, which was just nerfed. How bad would it feel wearing Impen against a Malacath Ring user knowing you could have a ton of other stats that would impact the outcome of a fight? This also applies to Impregnable and Transmutation sets. This change isn't good for anyone involved.

The trade-off for the people that want to abuse this ring to its utmost is so inconsequential. To the people saying that you give up a Monster Set or 5 pc:
Head + Shoulders: Monster
3 Body Pieces: Set X
2 Body Pieces: Set Y
Ring: Malacath
2 Jewelry: Set Y
Weapon Front: Set X
Weapon Back: Set Y
Where Set Y has proc and/or carry-over value to the front bar. The only thing you'll be wasting is that you'll have a 6 pc on the back bar, but that is so insignificant compared to what you gain by using this overtuned ring.

Side note: the scaling on this item will work differently for CP and noCP, making it harder to balance and discuss value without confusion. For example: Multiplicative gains aren't as impactful in a CP campaign, because there are numerous sources of it. However, you can redistribute crit CP to more flat damage and/or healing.
Also, NoCP builds with ~16% crit base will sacrifice the least for this ring, taking full advantage of what is basically trade-off-free offense (like Onslaught penetration), and 25% damage scales better in noCP where there are far fewer sources of significant % damage modifiers.

Stop giving low input, passive tanky builds EASY ACCESS to damage options comparable to (OR GREATER THAN) squishy, active builds.. especially in a meta where you've blanket nerfed healing by 20% and reduced the most popular defensive monster sets. Seriously, again, stop giving people damage for not properly building damage. This ring is boring, lazy, misguided, and poor design.

Am I missing anything? I might add more to this later or make a topic on this next week after we get PTS crit resist values.. showing the burst damage, average damage, and trade-offs of various Critical Hit Rates and Critical Hit Damage points compared to Malacath Ring for both CP and noCP.

Synozeer · April 2020

Question for those who have tested: Can you crit heal while wearing this ring? If not, then that's a huge penalty. If losing crit damage in exchange for the bonus damage is about even, and proc sets get a little bit of an extra benefit, the loss of healing crits easily balanced that out IMO.

Wuuffyy · April 2020

Synozeer wrote: »

Question for those who have tested: Can you crit heal while wearing this ring? If not, then that's a huge penalty. If losing crit damage in exchange for the bonus damage is about even, and proc sets get a little bit of an extra benefit, the loss of healing crits easily balanced that out IMO.

It says damage only but it isn’t working well rn.

nqvarihs · April 2020

Synozeer wrote: »

Question for those who have tested: Can you crit heal while wearing this ring? If not, then that's a huge penalty. If losing crit damage in exchange for the bonus damage is about even, and proc sets get a little bit of an extra benefit, the loss of healing crits easily balanced that out IMO.

yeah you can crit heal. the item only says 'you cannot deal critical damage' (i tested just to be sure and it actually works)

also fun thing about it, nb combo cloack > incap > la > spectral bow deals as much damage with and without the ring if you dont crit the la or the bow on a target dummy. now consider that you have ~35% crit and that players have crit res, and that the actual combo is a bit longer (pi, incap, bow, surprise attack, executionner + all the la/ha and whatever dmg is needed). so its worth it even on the class that has a a guaranted crit and already has a crit dmg bonus.

really its only downside is that you can't proc camo hunter's minor berserk. guess im playing stamden next patch