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• PC/Mac: EU megaserver for maintenance – September 9, 22:00 UTC (6:00PM EDT) - September 10, 16:00 UTC (12:00PM EDT) https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/682784
Zones main story quest bosses needs to be stronger!
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Malthorne✭✭✭✭✭
✭TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »You want a challenge? fight without armor, weapons or CP, it is your fault you spent them and made yourself overpowered.
I already tried. I did most of southern Elsweyr main story naked and punched everything to death. It really wasn’t difficult.
You don’t need high end gear and cp to face roll this content. The overland and questing is so easy to the point that it is boring to me and others. I grouped with a new player recently who literally only did lightning staff light attacks because that was all he needs to do. The guy was wearing a colorful assortment of quest reward gear on top of that.
What’s wrong with players advocating for a change, an optional setting, they would like to see? At this point people are just trying to gatekeep.2 -
Silent99✭✭
This is the reason you don't deserve even an option. You want it not for challenge, you want it for better rewards to widen the gap even more. Power creep for the sake of power creep.
Nope. Veteran difficulty in dungeons doesgive better rewards - in that case, monster helm drops, and increased quality of all gear drops.But, no additional rewards, no bonus items, no bonus gold. You're doing this harder mode because it's a way to make overworld enjoyable, that's your prize.
So it only stands to reason that vet overland should also have better rewards, in agreement with how the vet mode toggle works in existing vet content.
The skill gap will always exist - even if you could give everyone access to a fully maxed endgame build right from the start of the game, some players will still significantly outperform others, purely because of the difference in player skill.
The inevitability of skill gap existence doesn't mean that it should be insanely big. Lowering the gap allows making content challenging for high-end without making it too difficult for low-end without different modes.
The reduction of skill gap needs to come not from nerfing everything. (Lowering the ceiling)
It should come from "increasing the floor" by implementing a better tutorial system for example so that new players dont have to search 3rd party sites just to learn basic game mechanics.
Edited by Silent99 on April 15, 2020 8:31PM4 -
martygod12✭✭✭✭TequilaFire wrote: »So much hyperbole.
The game has to be designed for all players, new, old, good and bad.TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »You want a challenge? fight without armor, weapons or CP, it is your fault you spent them and made yourself overpowered.
I already tried. I did most of southern Elsweyr main story naked and punched everything to death. It really wasn’t difficult.
You don’t need high end gear and cp to face roll this content. The overland and questing is so easy to the point that it is boring to me and others. I grouped with a new player recently who literally only did lightning staff light attacks because that was all he needs to do. The guy was wearing a colorful assortment of quest reward gear on top of that.
What’s wrong with players advocating for a change, an optional setting, they would like to see? At this point people are just trying to gatekeep.
Exactly enemies are incapable of killing you even if you are lvl 1. I would understand if we wanted a global increase of difficulty for everyone. But we only want an option for those who wants more challenge in questing. Whats wrong with that.1 -
Olauron✭✭✭✭✭
✭
This is the reason you don't deserve even an option. You want it not for challenge, you want it for better rewards to widen the gap even more. Power creep for the sake of power creep.
Nope. Veteran difficulty in dungeons doesgive better rewards - in that case, monster helm drops, and increased quality of all gear drops.But, no additional rewards, no bonus items, no bonus gold. You're doing this harder mode because it's a way to make overworld enjoyable, that's your prize.
So it only stands to reason that vet overland should also have better rewards, in agreement with how the vet mode toggle works in existing vet content.
The skill gap will always exist - even if you could give everyone access to a fully maxed endgame build right from the start of the game, some players will still significantly outperform others, purely because of the difference in player skill.
The inevitability of skill gap existence doesn't mean that it should be insanely big. Lowering the gap allows making content challenging for high-end without making it too difficult for low-end without different modes.
The reduction of skill gap needs to come not from nerfing everything. (L
Why not? Why would you care that instead of 100k on trial dummy high-end players will get 30k on trial dummy if they will be able to do the same content?The Three Storm Sharks, episode 8 released on january the 8th.
One mer to rule them all,
one mer to find them,
One mer to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them.0 -
TequilaFire✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »You want a challenge? fight without armor, weapons or CP, it is your fault you spent them and made yourself overpowered.
I already tried. I did most of southern Elsweyr main story naked and punched everything to death. It really wasn’t difficult.
You don’t need high end gear and cp to face roll this content. The overland and questing is so easy to the point that it is boring to me and others. I grouped with a new player recently who literally only did lightning staff light attacks because that was all he needs to do. The guy was wearing a colorful assortment of quest reward gear on top of that.
What’s wrong with players advocating for a change, an optional setting, they would like to see? At this point people are just trying to gatekeep.
What about achievements and trophies?
Should the lower difficulty award them the same as the more difficult setting?
This opens a big can of worms.0 -
robpr✭✭✭✭✭
✭Simple solution would be to remake old overland story bosses to be like Mulaamir and Kalgronthid in Elsweyr main quest - they dont hit particularly hard, but require specific, easy to understand mechanic otherwise you get big damage that may get you killed.
They are still easy, but add epicness and their fight dont end in 5 attacks. Power creep went to the point that if you dont do overland content in your early CP levels, you can easily end the supposedly lethal threats to the countries in less than minute wearing stamina gear on magicka char.
Giving bosses new flashy mechanic and couple of thousands hp more while keeping their damage output low would be enough and give the feeling of accomplishment.1 -
Ri_Khan✭✭✭✭✭
✭[Snip]
This discussion's not about increasing overland difficulty. It's right in the title, "MAIN STORY QUEST BOSSES" These are all solo instances and having an option to make them tougher would in no way cause any of the hypothetical problems that are being contrived by the naysayers here.
[Edited for bait]Edited by ZOS_Volpe on April 15, 2020 10:48PM0 -
TequilaFire✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭[Snip]
This discussion's not about increasing overland difficulty. It's right in the title, "MAIN STORY QUEST BOSSES" These are all solo instances and having an option to make them tougher would in no way cause any of the hypothetical problems that are being contrived by the naysayers here.
[Edited for bait]
And I am talking about MAIN STORY achievements.
Besides, if the performance problems don't get fixed it will all be a moot point.Edited by ZOS_Volpe on April 15, 2020 10:48PM1 -
Silent99✭✭
This is the reason you don't deserve even an option. You want it not for challenge, you want it for better rewards to widen the gap even more. Power creep for the sake of power creep.
Nope. Veteran difficulty in dungeons doesgive better rewards - in that case, monster helm drops, and increased quality of all gear drops.But, no additional rewards, no bonus items, no bonus gold. You're doing this harder mode because it's a way to make overworld enjoyable, that's your prize.
So it only stands to reason that vet overland should also have better rewards, in agreement with how the vet mode toggle works in existing vet content.
The skill gap will always exist - even if you could give everyone access to a fully maxed endgame build right from the start of the game, some players will still significantly outperform others, purely because of the difference in player skill.
The inevitability of skill gap existence doesn't mean that it should be insanely big. Lowering the gap allows making content challenging for high-end without making it too difficult for low-end without different modes.
The reduction of skill gap needs to come not from nerfing everything. (L
Why not? Why would you care that instead of 100k on trial dummy high-end players will get 30k on trial dummy if they will be able to do the same content?
That will create problems, firstly games should be rewarding , the more time you spend on something the better you should be. In other words there needs to be a skill gap just not such a large one. Secondly if you just nerf everything , you still have to change pre existing content since some stuff would become impossible to do which is why raising the floor and helping newer players get closer to end game players is a better option.1 -
martygod12✭✭✭✭TequilaFire wrote: »Omg the lack of reading comprehension on this forum is insane and it's obvious that some of you responding didn't even bother read OP's post.
This discussion's not about increasing overland difficulty. It's right in the title, "MAIN STORY QUEST BOSSES" These are all solo instances and having an option to make them tougher would in no way cause any of the hypothetical problems that are being contrived by the naysayers here.
And I am talking about MAIN STORY achievements.
Besides, if the performance problems don't get fixed it will all be a moot point.
why they should not stay the same? I am asking because I dont look at achievments much.0 -
Silent99✭✭Also you going to have to nerf everything considerably to make overland content challenging and this will create so many problems. (2 hour vFG1 : P). its just better to implement a toggle for solo instance similar to how you switch between normal and vet dungeons, much less problems and everyone is happy.2
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Wa2p✭✭✭The problem with "better tutorials" or better x on how to play, there is a physical limitation for some people. The floor can only raise so high before it becomes neigh impossible for someone with a physical disability to play without causing more problems. The speed that this game requires is up there as well as precise timing. Sure some can train that, but there are those that cannot. There are those who will think that makes this game a job, and it is too much work to have to sit and train in. I'm all for an increase, I'm all for people to have their difficulty in story boss quests, or general over world. But it wouldn't be veteran level. It would have to be (barring creating separate instances, but for the sake of performance, lets not.) some kind of item, consumable, or memento that instead nerfs your damage, and increases your vulnerability. It's not vet. It's a way to gimp yourself without you manually gimping yourself.
As for a general light increase across the board. Fine, you should be able to die to overworld mobs (you can, but you have to pretend to know nothing about the game and have the first bit of "armor" you get from the tutorial. Even at level 15, 30, 45. Alright. Fine, increase it, but keep in mind the floor has a static max height to be accessible to all kinds of players. The ceiling? that's variable. I'm all for lowering that hardcore, and the progress one feels with their characters in a vet sense is learning how to actually play mechanics, and make those mechanics brutal. Trials? Everyone must learn to roll dodge tank at one point. Instead of your character achieving a new level! Your character got a new skill.
(Also, to overworld people in need of our characters assistance, a wolf is deadly let alone a few. To them that necromancer is a god level powerful entity. Where as to us, it's nothing compared to actual dragons we've fought. A way to put that gold gear, necromancer, and your power in perspective.)0 -
TequilaFire✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Well take the main quest where you defeat Molag Bal, should you get the achievement (PS4 trophy that count towards your PSN rank) if you do it on easy mode?
I am not against an option but that option does create an easy/hardmode situation.
A lot of games on PS4 don't award the trophy on easier modes.0 -
Malthorne✭✭✭✭✭
✭TequilaFire wrote: »TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »You want a challenge? fight without armor, weapons or CP, it is your fault you spent them and made yourself overpowered.
I already tried. I did most of southern Elsweyr main story naked and punched everything to death. It really wasn’t difficult.
You don’t need high end gear and cp to face roll this content. The overland and questing is so easy to the point that it is boring to me and others. I grouped with a new player recently who literally only did lightning staff light attacks because that was all he needs to do. The guy was wearing a colorful assortment of quest reward gear on top of that.
What’s wrong with players advocating for a change, an optional setting, they would like to see? At this point people are just trying to gatekeep.
What about achievements and trophies?
Should the lower difficulty award them the same as the more difficult setting?
This opens a big can of worms.
This is a really good question. I think some would assume the increased difficulty could warrant new achievements with the possibility of trophies/cosmetics..
I personally wouldn’t need any such incentive and I’m 100% ok with both modes sharing achievements along with anything else the quests provide.
The fear of missing out on rewards could be a big reason some people are against the idea.1 -
Olauron✭✭✭✭✭
✭
And that is exactly what will make the gap not very large but keep it. As for helping, no helping will make channelling skill viable, no helping will make HA-weave viable.
This is the reason you don't deserve even an option. You want it not for challenge, you want it for better rewards to widen the gap even more. Power creep for the sake of power creep.
Nope. Veteran difficulty in dungeons doesgive better rewards - in that case, monster helm drops, and increased quality of all gear drops.But, no additional rewards, no bonus items, no bonus gold. You're doing this harder mode because it's a way to make overworld enjoyable, that's your prize.
So it only stands to reason that vet overland should also have better rewards, in agreement with how the vet mode toggle works in existing vet content.
The skill gap will always exist - even if you could give everyone access to a fully maxed endgame build right from the start of the game, some players will still significantly outperform others, purely because of the difference in player skill.
The inevitability of skill gap existence doesn't mean that it should be insanely big. Lowering the gap allows making content challenging for high-end without making it too difficult for low-end without different modes.
The reduction of skill gap needs to come not from nerfing everything. (L
Why not? Why would you care that instead of 100k on trial dummy high-end players will get 30k on trial dummy if they will be able to do the same content?
That will create problems, firstly games should be rewarding , the more time you spend on something the better you should be. In other words there needs to be a skill gap just not such a large one. Secondly if you just nerf everything , you still have to change pre existing content since some stuff would become impossible to do which is why raising the floor and helping newer players get closer to end game players is a better option.
This toggle will will require the same changing of the quest content. Guess what content is bigger and will need much more time and resources to change, all overland and solo or dungeons.Also you going to have to nerf everything considerably to make overland content challenging and this will create so many problems. (2 hour vFG1 : P). its just better to implement a toggle for solo instance similar to how you switch between normal and vet dungeons, much less problems and everyone is happy.
End bosses of both Elsweyrs are a reason why I will never ever do those quests again on other characters. Those fights are boring, long and tedious. You as a character do nothing at all. Everything is done by the horn and by companions. That is much less fun than overpowering.Simple solution would be to remake old overland story bosses to be like Mulaamir and Kalgronthid in Elsweyr main quest - they dont hit particularly hard, but require specific, easy to understand mechanic otherwise you get big damage that may get you killed.
They are still easy, but add epicness and their fight dont end in 5 attacks. Power creep went to the point that if you dont do overland content in your early CP levels, you can easily end the supposedly lethal threats to the countries in less than minute wearing stamina gear on magicka char.
Giving bosses new flashy mechanic and couple of thousands hp more while keeping their damage output low would be enough and give the feeling of accomplishment.The Three Storm Sharks, episode 8 released on january the 8th.
One mer to rule them all,
one mer to find them,
One mer to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them.1 -
martygod12✭✭✭✭End bosses of both Elsweyrs are a reason why I will never ever do those quests again on other characters. Those fights are boring, long and tedious. You as a character do nothing at all. Everything is done by the horn and by companions. That is much less fun than overpowering.
Other zone end bosses makes me never want to do any other quest in the game because they are boring AF. You just come attack kill the poor guy on three strikes and done. You don´t even have to slow down damn I can just spam one skill which will kill the boss in 5 seconds and go harvesting nodes in the meantime
When the quest dialog last longer then the quest boss fight something is seriously wrong.1 -
Nestor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »You want a challenge? fight without armor, weapons or CP, it is your fault you spent them and made yourself overpowered.
I already tried. I did most of southern Elsweyr main story naked and punched everything to death. It really wasn’t difficult.
There is no Hand to Hand in the game, so how did you punch anything?
Video or it did not happen.
Enjoy the game, life is what you really want to be worried about.
PakKat "Everything was going well, until I died"
Gary Gravestink "I am glad you died, I needed the help"2 -
Olauron✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Yep. The mere possibility of your build.martygod12 wrote: »When the quest dialog last longer then the quest boss fight something is seriously wrong.The Three Storm Sharks, episode 8 released on january the 8th.
One mer to rule them all,
one mer to find them,
One mer to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them.0 -
Major_Lag✭✭✭✭✭
✭
When you queue for a random dungeon, it means you don't care about the dungeon-specific rewards (gear drops or monster helms) to begin with, only the bonus loot and EXP for completing a random dungeon - and optionally, any sense of accomplishment that may come from completing an unpredictable challenge.
DLC dungeons are, by their nature, considerably harder content than the basegame (non-DLC) dungeons. To the degree that many basegame veteran dungeons are still considerably easier than the hardest normal DLC ones.
Nope. Veteran difficulty in dungeons doesgive better rewards - in that case, monster helm drops, and increased quality of all gear drops.But, no additional rewards, no bonus items, no bonus gold. You're doing this harder mode because it's a way to make overworld enjoyable, that's your prize.
So it only stands to reason that vet overland should also have better rewards, in agreement with how the vet mode toggle works in existing vet content.
so if we go down that reasoning trail. then we NEED 2 different queues for DLC vs regular dungeons since the difficulty difference is so stark and yet completion rewards are identical.
In part this is a result of the overall power creep, since the basegame dungeons were originally designed for much lower CP levels than the 810CP cap we have today.
Another part of the reason is that many powerful sets have been introduced since then, furthering the power creep issue.
But ultimately, what matters is that ZOS has decided that you are only entitled to the better rewards if you play the harder (veteran) version of the content.
With that in mind, I feel that this is a fair decision -, because the newer (and harder) DLC dungeons generally tend to have better rewards than the old basegame dungeons.
except. when you queue up for a random dungeon? guess what it doesn't matter whether you get a DLC or regular. you get. the same. rewards. which was the point that apparently i was too subtle in making.
Which does absolutely nothing to address the root of the problem, and only serves to waste your time.well.. my refrain for the whole "make it harder with better rewards is" take off your gear and remove CP then.
Would you still play veteran dungeons - especially the hardest DLC ones - instead of the normals, if the reward for doing so was exactly the same as for clearing them on Normal?
More to the point - would you also expect most other players to also do so, if that were the case?
I do agree that the random queue should be split into separate DLC and non-DLC tiers, with different rewards for each.and the thing is - I don't mind if higher difficulties give better rewards. but it needs to be implemented across the board then. because there are vet hardmode dungeon pledges that give 2 keys and come with pretty darn good monster/BIS sets for certain specs - that are SIGNIFICANTLY easier then many of the DLC dungeons ... on normal. NOT an exaggeration.
But that's a subject for a whole another discussion, not really relevant to what the OP is proposing.
EDIT:
Lol, are you serious?TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »You want a challenge? fight without armor, weapons or CP, it is your fault you spent them and made yourself overpowered.
I already tried. I did most of southern Elsweyr main story naked and punched everything to death. It really wasn’t difficult.
There is no Hand to Hand in the game, so how did you punch anything?
Video or it did not happen.
Just unequip your weapon... it's that simple.
Yes, unarmed combat does exist in ESO, it's just that noone uses it because it sucks. You lose out on over 1k WD/SD by going unarmed.
Edited by Major_Lag on April 15, 2020 9:21PM1 -
Ri_Khan✭✭✭✭✭
✭TequilaFire wrote: »And I am talking about MAIN STORY achievements.
Besides, if the performance problems don't get fixed it will all be a moot point.
I don't think special achievements or rewards would be necessary. If anything, maybe some extra gold or a guaranteed epic set piece would be sufficient?
And as far as performance goes, this is all definitely some very wishful thinking. We all know very well that they won't add anything to this broken mess that they can't charge a ridiculous amount for.1 -
Silent99✭✭
Again i wasnt talking about a re work of all overland content but just the final boss of a quest line that is in a solo instance. An increase in health , damage and a repetition of existing simple mechanics that you mostly dont see, would do and that is far easier than re working all trial and dungeons which have way more complex and numerous mechanics.
This toggle will will require the same changing of the quest content. Guess what content is bigger and will need much more time and resources to change, all overland and solo or dungeons.Also you going to have to nerf everything considerably to make overland content challenging and this will create so many problems. (2 hour vFG1 : P). its just better to implement a toggle for solo instance similar to how you switch between normal and vet dungeons, much less problems and everyone is happy.martygod12 wrote: »When the quest dialog last longer then the quest boss fight something is seriously wrong.
Yeah i often have to just light attack the boss and stand there doing nothing mid fight just to hear the full dialogue. Sometimes the dialogues is based on the bosses health and then you either do too much damage or out right kill it and lose out on some dialogue. Not very fun and quite anti climatic.
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StormeReigns✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Going by the thread's logic, simply beating said (main) bosses on optional harder difficulty should be sufficient enough reward and the ever coveted "bragging rights."TequilaFire wrote: »And I am talking about MAIN STORY achievements.
Besides, if the performance problems don't get fixed it will all be a moot point.
I don't think special achievements or rewards would be necessary. If anything, maybe some extra gold or a guaranteed epic set piece would be sufficient?
So no need for extra gold, exp or upgraded piece would be needed, nor required cause the harder difficulty as explained in all the other similar threads and in this one is already the reward.
Edited by StormeReigns on April 15, 2020 9:34PM1 -
Malthorne✭✭✭✭✭
✭TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »You want a challenge? fight without armor, weapons or CP, it is your fault you spent them and made yourself overpowered.
I already tried. I did most of southern Elsweyr main story naked and punched everything to death. It really wasn’t difficult.
There is no Hand to Hand in the game, so how did you punch anything?
Video or it did not happen.
[Snip] Just unequip your weapons and press light attack
I’ll try to make a video but just know i am very much a noob at recording. I’ll do my best
[Edited for bait]Edited by ZOS_Volpe on April 15, 2020 10:44PM0 -
martygod12✭✭✭✭
Yep. The mere possibility of your build.martygod12 wrote: »When the quest dialog last longer then the quest boss fight something is seriously wrong.
Or the game since you can just punch to death everything with white gear without much sweat
0 -
tomofhyrule✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Omg the lack of reading comprehension on this forum is insane and it's obvious that some of you responding didn't even bother read OP's post.
This discussion's not about increasing overland difficulty. It's right in the title, "MAIN STORY QUEST BOSSES" These are all solo instances and having an option to make them tougher would in no way cause any of the hypothetical problems that are being contrived by the naysayers here.
Actually, the title is "Zones main story quest bosses" and the OP talked about the DC Main Quests. Specifically Alik'r. Not the Main Quest.
Those are not instanced.
And as someone whose chosen 'way to play' is "I want to take screenshots of my characters as they go through and then write their story," I know all too well that I need to play at off times to get a chance of taking any of those bosses alone. So yes, changing the difficulty of those is changing the difficulty of the zone, not a single solo instance.
I am fully on board with the zone quests also being instanced, just like the MQ and the MG/FG quests are. I also have no problem with a toggleable difficulty in the soloed areas. After all, a lot of people are coming from solo TES games and want to be able to play that way as well.
But yes, that's trying to take the MM out of the MMO.
And on the topic of rewards, this is a common refrain for adding a reduced-difficulty mode for soloing dungeons: if a solo dungeon mode gave the same rewards, why would anyone PUG? I know I would take the solos any day of the week just to be able to experience the story no matter what the rewards were, but I know if they gave me the same gear in the normals, I'd never do another group dungeon.Would you still play veteran dungeons - especially the hardest DLC ones - instead of the normals, if the reward for doing so was exactly the same as for clearing them on Normal?
More to the point - would you also expect most other players to also do so, if that were the case?
So now it's not just adding an optional 'overland hard mode,' it's also not incentivizing people to use it by providing better rewards. You're now admitting that there's a large portion of the people who won't choose that option unless there's loot at the end of it, so it begs the question of whether there are enough people to play a hard mode for fun to make it worth the effort of making a new set of zones specifically for that - since Zone quest bosses are not instanced.0 -
martygod12✭✭✭✭tomofhyrule wrote: »Omg the lack of reading comprehension on this forum is insane and it's obvious that some of you responding didn't even bother read OP's post.
This discussion's not about increasing overland difficulty. It's right in the title, "MAIN STORY QUEST BOSSES" These are all solo instances and having an option to make them tougher would in no way cause any of the hypothetical problems that are being contrived by the naysayers here.
Actually, the title is "Zones main story quest bosses" and the OP talked about the DC Main Quests. Specifically Alik'r. Not the Main Quest.
Those are not instanced.
And as someone whose chosen 'way to play' is "I want to take screenshots of my characters as they go through and then write their story," I know all too well that I need to play at off times to get a chance of taking any of those bosses alone. So yes, changing the difficulty of those is changing the difficulty of the zone, not a single solo instance.
I am fully on board with the zone quests also being instanced, just like the MQ and the MG/FG quests are. I also have no problem with a toggleable difficulty in the soloed areas. After all, a lot of people are coming from solo TES games and want to be able to play that way as well.
But yes, that's trying to take the MM out of the MMO.
And on the topic of rewards, this is a common refrain for adding a reduced-difficulty mode for soloing dungeons: if a solo dungeon mode gave the same rewards, why would anyone PUG? I know I would take the solos any day of the week just to be able to experience the story no matter what the rewards were, but I know if they gave me the same gear in the normals, I'd never do another group dungeon.Would you still play veteran dungeons - especially the hardest DLC ones - instead of the normals, if the reward for doing so was exactly the same as for clearing them on Normal?
More to the point - would you also expect most other players to also do so, if that were the case?
So now it's not just adding an optional 'overland hard mode,' it's also not incentivizing people to use it by providing better rewards. You're now admitting that there's a large portion of the people who won't choose that option unless there's loot at the end of it, so it begs the question of whether there are enough people to play a hard mode for fun to make it worth the effort of making a new set of zones specifically for that - since Zone quest bosses are not instanced.
You dont need to make whole set of zones just the mini boss zones which is usually some small room.1 -
tomofhyrule✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
I am all for those rooms being solo instances. If you want to talk about what makes sense in story...martygod12 wrote: »You dont need to make whole set of zones just the mini boss zones which is usually some small room.
GUARD: "I've got the key and the location you seek, as promised....You can find the entrance to the west. Old door, looks out of place against the rocks. Door's locked to keep people out of the ruins."
<You walk to the ruins and start to fight the few Maulborn outside>
<A massively OP Orc in a bright pink dress runs in ahead of you and one-shots everything before you have a chance to react>
<He opens the door to the ruins even though you were told you have the only key>
<You enter to find him just finishing off Giron Sadri, so you didn't even get a chance to fight him>
<You sigh and go back to the entrance and wait for everything to respawn>
So yes, I'm all for solo instances of the boss rooms. And sure, why not have a difficulty toggle on solo parts? But overworld needs to stay squishy.
The only thing is that it would be too difficult to go back and add new mechanics for each of the bosses, so 'difficulty' would pretty well have to come from players taking more damage and dealing less or just buffing the HP and DMG of the boss. I don't think we'll see them remake the entire boss fights for Zone bosses, especially since so many people have done them over the years and then wouldn't be able to experience them again on their character.1 -
martygod12✭✭✭✭tomofhyrule wrote: »
I am all for those rooms being solo instances. If you want to talk about what makes sense in story...martygod12 wrote: »You dont need to make whole set of zones just the mini boss zones which is usually some small room.
GUARD: "I've got the key and the location you seek, as promised....You can find the entrance to the west. Old door, looks out of place against the rocks. Door's locked to keep people out of the ruins."
<You walk to the ruins and start to fight the few Maulborn outside>
<A massively OP Orc in a bright pink dress runs in ahead of you and one-shots everything before you have a chance to react>
<He opens the door to the ruins even though you were told you have the only key>
<You enter to find him just finishing off Giron Sadri, so you didn't even get a chance to fight him>
<You sigh and go back to the entrance and wait for everything to respawn>
So yes, I'm all for solo instances of the boss rooms. And sure, why not have a difficulty toggle on solo parts? But overworld needs to stay squishy.
The only thing is that it would be too difficult to go back and add new mechanics for each of the bosses, so 'difficulty' would pretty well have to come from players taking more damage and dealing less or just buffing the HP and DMG of the boss. I don't think we'll see them remake the entire boss fights for Zone bosses, especially since so many people have done them over the years and then wouldn't be able to experience them again on their character.
Yes just make them have more HP and deal more and take less damage thats all.0 -
Wandering_Immigrant✭✭✭✭
DLC dungeons are, by their nature, considerably harder content than the basegame (non-DLC) dungeons. To the degree that many basegame veteran dungeons are still considerably easier than the hardest normal DLC ones.
Nope. Veteran difficulty in dungeons doesgive better rewards - in that case, monster helm drops, and increased quality of all gear drops.But, no additional rewards, no bonus items, no bonus gold. You're doing this harder mode because it's a way to make overworld enjoyable, that's your prize.
So it only stands to reason that vet overland should also have better rewards, in agreement with how the vet mode toggle works in existing vet content.
so if we go down that reasoning trail. then we NEED 2 different queues for DLC vs regular dungeons since the difficulty difference is so stark and yet completion rewards are identical.
In part this is a result of the overall power creep, since the basegame dungeons were originally designed for much lower CP levels than the 810CP cap we have today.
Another part of the reason is that many powerful sets have been introduced since then, furthering the power creep issue.
But ultimately, what matters is that ZOS has decided that you are only entitled to the better rewards if you play the harder (veteran) version of the content.
With that in mind, I feel that this is a fair decision -, because the newer (and harder) DLC dungeons generally tend to have better rewards than the old basegame dungeons.
except. when you queue up for a random dungeon? guess what it doesn't matter whether you get a DLC or regular. you get. the same. rewards. which was the point that apparently i was too subtle in making.
if we are going to talk about rewards being better based on difficulty? then dungeon queue needs to be adjusted as well. the usual refrain is "don't do a random then" well.. my refrain for the whole "make it harder with better rewards is" take off your gear and remove CP then.
and the thing is - I don't mind if higher difficulties give better rewards. but it needs to be implemented across the board then. because there are vet hardmode dungeon pledges that give 2 keys and come with pretty darn good monster/BIS sets for certain specs - that are SIGNIFICANTLY easier then many of the DLC dungeons ... on normal. NOT an exaggeration.
I don't know if you ever claimed that random dungeon is random dungeon and no changes are needed. but a LOT of people do. and a LOT of those people also tend to be the ones asking for harder overland... with better rewards. and it annoys me, this hypocrisy.
I think random vet should offer more bonus exp regardless of everything else in this conversation. Queuing for a specific dungeon on normal isn't usually too bad of a wait because there's always people doing randoms to get paired with. Trying to get a specific vet done though can take forever, especially as DPS but even as a tank it can be a long wait if it's not one of the dungeons that drops commonly popular gear because there's just far fewer people willing to do random vet when they get the same reward for doing normal.0 -
Linaleah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
When you queue for a random dungeon, it means you don't care about the dungeon-specific rewards (gear drops or monster helms) to begin with, only the bonus loot and EXP for completing a random dungeon - and optionally, any sense of accomplishment that may come from completing an unpredictable challenge.
DLC dungeons are, by their nature, considerably harder content than the basegame (non-DLC) dungeons. To the degree that many basegame veteran dungeons are still considerably easier than the hardest normal DLC ones.
Nope. Veteran difficulty in dungeons doesgive better rewards - in that case, monster helm drops, and increased quality of all gear drops.But, no additional rewards, no bonus items, no bonus gold. You're doing this harder mode because it's a way to make overworld enjoyable, that's your prize.
So it only stands to reason that vet overland should also have better rewards, in agreement with how the vet mode toggle works in existing vet content.
so if we go down that reasoning trail. then we NEED 2 different queues for DLC vs regular dungeons since the difficulty difference is so stark and yet completion rewards are identical.
In part this is a result of the overall power creep, since the basegame dungeons were originally designed for much lower CP levels than the 810CP cap we have today.
Another part of the reason is that many powerful sets have been introduced since then, furthering the power creep issue.
But ultimately, what matters is that ZOS has decided that you are only entitled to the better rewards if you play the harder (veteran) version of the content.
With that in mind, I feel that this is a fair decision -, because the newer (and harder) DLC dungeons generally tend to have better rewards than the old basegame dungeons.
except. when you queue up for a random dungeon? guess what it doesn't matter whether you get a DLC or regular. you get. the same. rewards. which was the point that apparently i was too subtle in making.
Which does absolutely nothing to address the root of the problem, and only serves to waste your time.well.. my refrain for the whole "make it harder with better rewards is" take off your gear and remove CP then.
Would you still play veteran dungeons - especially the hardest DLC ones - instead of the normals, if the reward for doing so was exactly the same as for clearing them on Normal?
More to the point - would you also expect most other players to also do so, if that were the case?
I do agree that the random queue should be split into separate DLC and non-DLC tiers, with different rewards for each.and the thing is - I don't mind if higher difficulties give better rewards. but it needs to be implemented across the board then. because there are vet hardmode dungeon pledges that give 2 keys and come with pretty darn good monster/BIS sets for certain specs - that are SIGNIFICANTLY easier then many of the DLC dungeons ... on normal. NOT an exaggeration.
But that's a subject for a whole another discussion, not really relevant to what the OP is proposing.
EDIT:
Lol, are you serious?TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »You want a challenge? fight without armor, weapons or CP, it is your fault you spent them and made yourself overpowered.
I already tried. I did most of southern Elsweyr main story naked and punched everything to death. It really wasn’t difficult.
There is no Hand to Hand in the game, so how did you punch anything?
Video or it did not happen.
Just unequip your weapon... it's that simple.
Yes, unarmed combat does exist in ESO, it's just that noone uses it because it sucks. You lose out on over 1k WD/SD by going unarmed.
I'm talking about the difference in difficulty between dungeons even within the same.... difficulty. lets go with pledges again. a non DLC hm pledge will reward the same exact 2 keys and what was it.. purple? transmute geode as DLC HM pledge. but the amount of effort required to do those is vastly different from dungeon to dungeon, even within non DLC dungeons. and yet... rewards are the same.
but the sets, you say. as I said... some of the best sets/monster sets come from regular dungeons. yes, there are some good DLC dungeon sets, but there are still non DLC alternatives. so... why do we have the same rewards again? if that is ok to have the same rewards, then WHY should vet difficulty zone quests have better rewards again? either improve rewards for increase of difficulty. or don't. across the board.
and if its for the challenge? (and I've heard some people say they enjoy DLC dungeons on vet specifically for the challenge) then... rewards shouldn't matter, right?dirty worthless casual.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***0
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