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Heavy Attack Crits Do The Same Damage As Crystal Frag Proc Crits
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ZeroXFF✭✭✭✭✭
✭HAs have to be stronger than [LA+skill damage] * [HA windup duration in s], otherwise they become non-viable in PvE. Especially if they don't restore resources. If, as many here want, LAs get buffed back up, HAs would have to be buffed too to remain viable.
The only way to actually address this problem is a rather unpopular one...0 -
John_Falstaff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭HAs have to be stronger than [LA+skill damage] * [HA windup duration in s], otherwise they become non-viable in PvE. Especially if they don't restore resources. If, as many here want, LAs get buffed back up, HAs would have to be buffed too to remain viable.
The only way to actually address this problem is a rather unpopular one...
On the contrary, the only way is the actually most popular one. Revert everything, make HAs restore resources again, LAs deal damage. Problem solved.0 -
LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Only 30k?
Seriously though, I totally agree that heavy attack damage is way too high. That looks like you are at least running a legit build there hahaha. With some min/maxing things get pretty wacky.
A highly convoluted setup on a trial dummy using a dedicated heavy-attack DK. Note that even in a normal situation I can easily hit 50k-70k on a 6million dummy throughout a fight.
Here was another result from my nightblade using a ganking setup.
As I stated in another thread, I like that heavies deal more damage. But on the PTS they are literally the strongest attacks in the game.
They should be, they take twice as long to cast. I think the balance should be struck where a light attack and spamable hits half as hard as a heavy, so when you do two LA/spam combos in 2 seconds its roughly the same damage as 1 heavy in 2 seconds. Give or take actual variance in heavy cast times for different weapons. If a heavy only takes 1.5 seconds then it should only be 150% of the damage that the light attack/spamable 1 second combo of that weapon type does.
I'd like a skill that takes 10 seconds to cast but crits for 1 million damage please.3 -
katorga✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Iti s the ranged heavy attacks that come out of nowhere in pvp while you are engaged and distracted that are going to get you. Face to face melee heavies are easy to counter. Just seach and replace "snipe" with "heavy attack" in the forum nerf threads.
I expect you will see 40K staff heavy attacks in pvp.
Vamp + DK + sunder flame or other heavy attack buffing set...boom.1 -
ZeroXFF✭✭✭✭✭
✭John_Falstaff wrote: »HAs have to be stronger than [LA+skill damage] * [HA windup duration in s], otherwise they become non-viable in PvE. Especially if they don't restore resources. If, as many here want, LAs get buffed back up, HAs would have to be buffed too to remain viable.
The only way to actually address this problem is a rather unpopular one...
On the contrary, the only way is the actually most popular one. Revert everything, make HAs restore resources again, LAs deal damage. Problem solved.
Well, clearly ZOS thinks that under this paradigm HAs are not viable, why else would they make this change?2 -
Kolzki✭✭✭✭✭LiquidPony wrote: »Only 30k?
Seriously though, I totally agree that heavy attack damage is way too high. That looks like you are at least running a legit build there hahaha. With some min/maxing things get pretty wacky.
A highly convoluted setup on a trial dummy using a dedicated heavy-attack DK. Note that even in a normal situation I can easily hit 50k-70k on a 6million dummy throughout a fight.
Here was another result from my nightblade using a ganking setup.
As I stated in another thread, I like that heavies deal more damage. But on the PTS they are literally the strongest attacks in the game.
They should be, they take twice as long to cast. I think the balance should be struck where a light attack and spamable hits half as hard as a heavy, so when you do two LA/spam combos in 2 seconds its roughly the same damage as 1 heavy in 2 seconds. Give or take actual variance in heavy cast times for different weapons. If a heavy only takes 1.5 seconds then it should only be 150% of the damage that the light attack/spamable 1 second combo of that weapon type does.
I'd like a skill that takes 10 seconds to cast but crits for 1 million damage please.
A little strong. Let's take that down to 950k to match current end game dps and the job is done. The floor has become the ceiling, up has become down, khajiit have become dogs and we have perfect skilless balance.2 -
olsborg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Only 30k?
Seriously though, I totally agree that heavy attack damage is way too high. That looks like you are at least running a legit build there hahaha. With some min/maxing things get pretty wacky.
A highly convoluted setup on a trial dummy using a dedicated heavy-attack DK. Note that even in a normal situation I can easily hit 50k-70k on a 6million dummy throughout a fight.
Here was another result from my nightblade using a ganking setup.
As I stated in another thread, I like that heavies deal more damage. But on the PTS they are literally the strongest attacks in the game.
They should be, they take twice as long to cast. I think the balance should be struck where a light attack and spamable hits half as hard as a heavy, so when you do two LA/spam combos in 2 seconds its roughly the same damage as 1 heavy in 2 seconds. Give or take actual variance in heavy cast times for different weapons. If a heavy only takes 1.5 seconds then it should only be 150% of the damage that the light attack/spamable 1 second combo of that weapon type does.
Ans what about the thousands resources and 4 touch you pressed for having the same result that just clicking 1 button so?
There there, ZOS just wants to lower the skill ceiling. Its all good in the hood. /sarcasm
PC EU
PvP only2 -
LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭LiquidPony wrote: »Only 30k?
Seriously though, I totally agree that heavy attack damage is way too high. That looks like you are at least running a legit build there hahaha. With some min/maxing things get pretty wacky.
A highly convoluted setup on a trial dummy using a dedicated heavy-attack DK. Note that even in a normal situation I can easily hit 50k-70k on a 6million dummy throughout a fight.
Here was another result from my nightblade using a ganking setup.
As I stated in another thread, I like that heavies deal more damage. But on the PTS they are literally the strongest attacks in the game.
They should be, they take twice as long to cast. I think the balance should be struck where a light attack and spamable hits half as hard as a heavy, so when you do two LA/spam combos in 2 seconds its roughly the same damage as 1 heavy in 2 seconds. Give or take actual variance in heavy cast times for different weapons. If a heavy only takes 1.5 seconds then it should only be 150% of the damage that the light attack/spamable 1 second combo of that weapon type does.
I'd like a skill that takes 10 seconds to cast but crits for 1 million damage please.
A little strong. Let's take that down to 950k to match current end game dps and the job is done. The floor has become the ceiling, up has become down, khajiit have become dogs and we have perfect skilless balance.
True. I was trying to account for times you might have to cancel it to block or dodge or whatnot.
Let's say ... a skill with a 10-second cast time that does 95k DPS and also grants you Major Protection, Minor Protection, Major Aegis, Minor Aegis, Major Evasion, Minor Evasion, Major Ward, Minor Ward, Major Resolve, Minor Resolve, Major Vitality, Minor Vitality, Major Fortitude, Minor Fortitude, Major Expedition, and Minor Expedition while casting it?Edited by LiquidPony on April 8, 2020 4:31PM1 -
Kolzki✭✭✭✭✭LiquidPony wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »Only 30k?
Seriously though, I totally agree that heavy attack damage is way too high. That looks like you are at least running a legit build there hahaha. With some min/maxing things get pretty wacky.
A highly convoluted setup on a trial dummy using a dedicated heavy-attack DK. Note that even in a normal situation I can easily hit 50k-70k on a 6million dummy throughout a fight.
Here was another result from my nightblade using a ganking setup.
As I stated in another thread, I like that heavies deal more damage. But on the PTS they are literally the strongest attacks in the game.
They should be, they take twice as long to cast. I think the balance should be struck where a light attack and spamable hits half as hard as a heavy, so when you do two LA/spam combos in 2 seconds its roughly the same damage as 1 heavy in 2 seconds. Give or take actual variance in heavy cast times for different weapons. If a heavy only takes 1.5 seconds then it should only be 150% of the damage that the light attack/spamable 1 second combo of that weapon type does.
I'd like a skill that takes 10 seconds to cast but crits for 1 million damage please.
A little strong. Let's take that down to 950k to match current end game dps and the job is done. The floor has become the ceiling, up has become down, khajiit have become dogs and we have perfect skilless balance.
True. I was trying to account for times you might have to cancel it to block or dodge or whatnot.
Let's say ... a skill with a 10-second cast time that does 95k DPS and also grants you Major Protection, Minor Protection, Major Aegis, Minor Aegis, Major Evasion, Minor Evasion, Major Ward, Minor Ward, Major Resolve, Minor Resolve, Major Vitality, Minor Vitality, Major Fortitude, Minor Fortitude, Major Expedition, and Minor Expedition while casting it?
Sounds good. Let's make necro heavy attacks apply major vulnerability too though yeah?3 -
LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭LiquidPony wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »Only 30k?
Seriously though, I totally agree that heavy attack damage is way too high. That looks like you are at least running a legit build there hahaha. With some min/maxing things get pretty wacky.
A highly convoluted setup on a trial dummy using a dedicated heavy-attack DK. Note that even in a normal situation I can easily hit 50k-70k on a 6million dummy throughout a fight.
Here was another result from my nightblade using a ganking setup.
As I stated in another thread, I like that heavies deal more damage. But on the PTS they are literally the strongest attacks in the game.
They should be, they take twice as long to cast. I think the balance should be struck where a light attack and spamable hits half as hard as a heavy, so when you do two LA/spam combos in 2 seconds its roughly the same damage as 1 heavy in 2 seconds. Give or take actual variance in heavy cast times for different weapons. If a heavy only takes 1.5 seconds then it should only be 150% of the damage that the light attack/spamable 1 second combo of that weapon type does.
I'd like a skill that takes 10 seconds to cast but crits for 1 million damage please.
A little strong. Let's take that down to 950k to match current end game dps and the job is done. The floor has become the ceiling, up has become down, khajiit have become dogs and we have perfect skilless balance.
True. I was trying to account for times you might have to cancel it to block or dodge or whatnot.
Let's say ... a skill with a 10-second cast time that does 95k DPS and also grants you Major Protection, Minor Protection, Major Aegis, Minor Aegis, Major Evasion, Minor Evasion, Major Ward, Minor Ward, Major Resolve, Minor Resolve, Major Vitality, Minor Vitality, Major Fortitude, Minor Fortitude, Major Expedition, and Minor Expedition while casting it?
Sounds good. Let's make necro heavy attacks apply major vulnerability too though yeah?
Now we're cooking with gas!
+1 insightful for you!1 -
Vevvev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭LiquidPony wrote: »
True. I was trying to account for times you might have to cancel it to block or dodge or whatnot.
Let's say ... a skill with a 10-second cast time that does 95k DPS and also grants you Major Protection, Minor Protection, Major Aegis, Minor Aegis, Major Evasion, Minor Evasion, Major Ward, Minor Ward, Major Resolve, Minor Resolve, Major Vitality, Minor Vitality, Major Fortitude, Minor Fortitude, Major Expedition, and Minor Expedition while casting it?
Also forgot Major/Minor Brutality, Major/Minor Force, and Major/Minor Sorcery! Or are you trying to balance it so it doesn't give you more offensive power?PC NA - Ceyanna Ashton - Breton Vampire MagDK0 -
LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭LiquidPony wrote: »
True. I was trying to account for times you might have to cancel it to block or dodge or whatnot.
Let's say ... a skill with a 10-second cast time that does 95k DPS and also grants you Major Protection, Minor Protection, Major Aegis, Minor Aegis, Major Evasion, Minor Evasion, Major Ward, Minor Ward, Major Resolve, Minor Resolve, Major Vitality, Minor Vitality, Major Fortitude, Minor Fortitude, Major Expedition, and Minor Expedition while casting it?
Also forgot Major/Minor Brutality, Major/Minor Force, and Major/Minor Sorcery! Or are you trying to balance it so it doesn't give you more offensive power?
I'm just trying to make sure that it is basically impossible to die while you're casting it. So that you can just stand in front of a boss and press 1 button every 10 seconds maybe moving a bit if necessary.
I think 6 APM seems like a reasonable floor as long as we're trying to make sure that pangolins and hamsters are able to clear the hardest content in the game.3 -
Ranger209✭✭✭✭✭LiquidPony wrote: »Only 30k?
Seriously though, I totally agree that heavy attack damage is way too high. That looks like you are at least running a legit build there hahaha. With some min/maxing things get pretty wacky.
A highly convoluted setup on a trial dummy using a dedicated heavy-attack DK. Note that even in a normal situation I can easily hit 50k-70k on a 6million dummy throughout a fight.
Here was another result from my nightblade using a ganking setup.
As I stated in another thread, I like that heavies deal more damage. But on the PTS they are literally the strongest attacks in the game.
They should be, they take twice as long to cast. I think the balance should be struck where a light attack and spamable hits half as hard as a heavy, so when you do two LA/spam combos in 2 seconds its roughly the same damage as 1 heavy in 2 seconds. Give or take actual variance in heavy cast times for different weapons. If a heavy only takes 1.5 seconds then it should only be 150% of the damage that the light attack/spamable 1 second combo of that weapon type does.
I'd like a skill that takes 10 seconds to cast but crits for 1 million damage please.
You would be dead before you got it off, don't be ridiculous.0 -
universal_wrath✭✭✭✭✭1:10 is spot on, that weird animation lock+resource drain glitch makes me scared of using heavy attacks and it's already on the live server.
ZOS should fix the core of their game that is falling apart before even thinking about balancing.
Hapoens to me quite often on my stamsorc. I think it is related to sprinting as I experince same bug ,were I stuck trying to do LA animation but can't use anything, mostly after I sprint.Another addition to ESO without proper testing, it's like the DOT meta allllll over again. You'll see in 3 months that Heavy attacks will be nerfed, light attack buffed. [snip]
Another indirect nerf to classes that use light attack weaves in there rotation, mostly Nightblades. What a rip.
[edited for bashing]
Stamsorc PvE as well. NB merciless is in a better spot than bound armamaent as merciless still count HA as 2 charges for the biw proc were bound armament is on giving 1charge per HA same as LA. At the end of the day, I think LA/HA related skills like molten armament skill should be adjusted accordingly to HA/LA changes, this include siphoning skill as it seems like it over sustain and lost its purpose when LA started to retun resources, even more resources than siphoning1 -
universal_wrath✭✭✭✭✭
Very hard to see these heavies and very easy to land in group fights due to AOE visuals.0 -
LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭LiquidPony wrote: »Only 30k?
Seriously though, I totally agree that heavy attack damage is way too high. That looks like you are at least running a legit build there hahaha. With some min/maxing things get pretty wacky.
A highly convoluted setup on a trial dummy using a dedicated heavy-attack DK. Note that even in a normal situation I can easily hit 50k-70k on a 6million dummy throughout a fight.
Here was another result from my nightblade using a ganking setup.
As I stated in another thread, I like that heavies deal more damage. But on the PTS they are literally the strongest attacks in the game.
They should be, they take twice as long to cast. I think the balance should be struck where a light attack and spamable hits half as hard as a heavy, so when you do two LA/spam combos in 2 seconds its roughly the same damage as 1 heavy in 2 seconds. Give or take actual variance in heavy cast times for different weapons. If a heavy only takes 1.5 seconds then it should only be 150% of the damage that the light attack/spamable 1 second combo of that weapon type does.
I'd like a skill that takes 10 seconds to cast but crits for 1 million damage please.
You would be dead before you got it off, don't be ridiculous.
Hmm that's a fair point.
Well then if Major Protection, Minor Protection, Major Aegis, Minor Aegis, Major Evasion, Minor Evasion, Major Ward, Minor Ward, Major Resolve, Minor Resolve, Major Vitality, Minor Vitality, Major Fortitude, Minor Fortitude, Major Expedition, and Minor Expedition aren't enough to keep me alive when casting it ...
How about a skill with a 10-second cast time that does 95k DPS that grants Major Protection, Minor Protection, Major Aegis, Minor Aegis, Major Evasion, Minor Evasion, Major Ward, Minor Ward, Major Resolve, Minor Resolve, Major Vitality, Minor Vitality, Major Fortitude, Minor Fortitude, Major Expedition, and Minor Expedition and also a damage shield that absorbs up to 950,000 damage and lasts for 10 seconds?
I think we're on to something here.Edited by LiquidPony on April 8, 2020 5:26PM1 -
Sanguinor2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭LiquidPony wrote: »
Hmm that's a fair point.
Well then if Major Protection, Minor Protection, Major Aegis, Minor Aegis, Major Evasion, Minor Evasion, Major Ward, Minor Ward, Major Resolve, Minor Resolve, Major Vitality, Minor Vitality, Major Fortitude, Minor Fortitude, Major Expedition, and Minor Expedition aren't enough to keep me alive when casting it ...
How about a skill with a 10-second cast time that does 95k DPS that grants Major Protection, Minor Protection, Major Aegis, Minor Aegis, Major Evasion, Minor Evasion, Major Ward, Minor Ward, Major Resolve, Minor Resolve, Major Vitality, Minor Vitality, Major Fortitude, Minor Fortitude, Major Expedition, and Minor Expedition and also a damage shield that absorbs up to 950,000 damage and lasts for 10 seconds?
I think we're on to something here.
You forgot cc immunity, spell cant be interruptable.Politeness is respecting others.
Courage is doing what is fair.
Modesty is speaking of oneself without vanity.
Self control is keeping calm even when anger rises.
Sincerity is expressing oneself without concealing ones thoughts.
Honor is keeping ones word.2 -
Dr_Ganknstein✭✭✭✭✭
✭I don't know what their obsession is with light and heavy attacks. I don't mind light attack weaving for combos because to me it makes it more fun but to rely on heavy attacks for damage is the most boring game play I've seen in a game in a long time. Its like having a bowl of lucky charms cereal without the marshmallows.1 -
Dracane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Staff heavy attacks are still quite slow and telegraphed. Also reflectable and easily dodgeable. But there was just no reason to buff 2handed heavy attacks by such a number. It as well should not have been more than 12%.
And as for pve... well you can see that here.Auri-El is my lord,
Trinimac my ward,
and Magnus my mind.0 -
katorga✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Staff heavy attacks are still quite slow and telegraphed. Also reflectable and easily dodgeable. But there was just no reason to buff 2handed heavy attacks by such a number. It as well should not have been more than 12%.
And as for pve... well you can see that here.
If you see them, but they are easy to miss when you are in a wild melee and someone off on the edges of combat is lobbing them in. It will hit a lot harder than snipe, and people endlessly complain about snipe on the forums.
I predict this will all end with heavy attacks nerfed and light attacks still doing 78% less damage.
Updated after the comment that the changes are not going in...color me amazed. I figured since they did the work to implement for PTS and built sets around it, it was going live no matter what.Edited by katorga on April 9, 2020 12:26AM0 -
Sluggy✭✭✭✭✭
✭Windup time doesn't matter so much when you're invisible. Better stock up on detection pots. I'd probably try something like Molten Armorments -> Invis Pot -> Heavy -> D-swing -> Whatever... maybe another heavy and D-swing, maybe a leap and execute.
Granted, maybe it will totally suck. Heavies are notoriously difficult to land right now, even against target dummies.0 -
ecru✭✭✭✭✭
✭HAs have to be stronger than [LA+skill damage] * [HA windup duration in s], otherwise they become non-viable in PvE. Especially if they don't restore resources. If, as many here want, LAs get buffed back up, HAs would have to be buffed too to remain viable.
The only way to actually address this problem is a rather unpopular one...
There's nothing wong with them being more powerful than LA+skill, but right now they're clearly doing too much damage compared to the effort involved and more importantly the cost, which is zero.Gryphon Heart
Godslayer
Dawnbringer0 -
ZeroXFF✭✭✭✭✭
✭HAs have to be stronger than [LA+skill damage] * [HA windup duration in s], otherwise they become non-viable in PvE. Especially if they don't restore resources. If, as many here want, LAs get buffed back up, HAs would have to be buffed too to remain viable.
The only way to actually address this problem is a rather unpopular one...
There's nothing wong with them being more powerful than LA+skill, but right now they're clearly doing too much damage compared to the effort involved and more importantly the cost, which is zero.
The thing that is wrong with that is, they turn into 1-shots in PvP.0 -
Ranger209✭✭✭✭✭HAs have to be stronger than [LA+skill damage] * [HA windup duration in s], otherwise they become non-viable in PvE. Especially if they don't restore resources. If, as many here want, LAs get buffed back up, HAs would have to be buffed too to remain viable.
The only way to actually address this problem is a rather unpopular one...
There's nothing wong with them being more powerful than LA+skill, but right now they're clearly doing too much damage compared to the effort involved and more importantly the cost, which is zero.
The thing that is wrong with that is, they turn into 1-shots in PvP.
If they want to go that route, and I hope they do, they need to look at shortening the HA channel time to 1 second or 1.2 seconds and reducing the damage to 50% or 60% of what it was. That way they have the same dps, but they are nowhere near as bursty.0 -
Galarthor✭✭✭✭✭
✭universal_wrath wrote: »*Disclaimer these results are without using queens elegance*
Any opinions I say in the video, are just that, my opinions and not intended as bashing, maybe just a bit of frustration because I really enjoy this game and think this may be a bad road to follow.
That being said, yes crystal frag procs and heavy attacks can have the same amount of damage.
Think of the implications in pvp about that, getting hit with a 8k to 12k frag then an 8k to 12k heavy attack at ONCE.
Here is some gameplay, take from it what you will.
(If you don't want to watch the video heavy attacks and frags crit on a 3mill dummy for 30.8k and 31.3k respectively. On a trial dummy, both crit around 50k.)
My sets
Slimecraw monster- both divines
New Moon body- all impen
Destructive Mage- nirnhoned with flame enchant, jewelry all infused spell damage(This does not count as heavy attack damage, it shows up separate.)
Mundas-Apprentice
60 points in staff expert
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKnYdrHcb1A
Ihit 35-40k heavy attack on my magplar and magsorc in dungeon setting without any famcy buffs like major force or major vunerability, inly major armor debuff and maybe minor vunrability. It will be like 80k next patch lol, I wonder how much will I do in pvp next patch.
Not enough, unless you are at the point where you are only spamming heavy attacks. At that point ZOS will be (almost) happy b/c the gameplay is slow af and everybody is doing the same thing. And with everybody only spamming slow heavy attacks there is literally no skill gap anymore. Problem solved ... almost, people still have to aim. But that is an issue for another time.
We all used to joke that they would homogenize skills so that all skills of the same type do the same damage.
We all used to joke that the classes would eventually play almost the same but with different colors.
We all used to joke that group PvE content would start having performance/combat issues like PvP does.
We all used to joke that Heavy attack spam would become high damage so even players holding down one button could compete in everything.
All things we used to joke about. The first 3 things actually happened and it looks like the 4th is currently in the works on PTS
I guess we better start joking about seeing actual real performance improvements if we want to able to play this game in the future.2 -
OmniDo✭✭✭✭✭Regarding the "Ceiling", I'm just going to leave this quote from the original first-person sneaker.
With regard to skill versus entitlement, I'll leave this quote from Underworld 2:"Reliance upon others is strength for the weak, but weakness for the strong." -- Keeper Annals"Do not come groveling to me simply because you are weaker than your adversary." -Alexander CorvinusEdited by OmniDo on April 13, 2020 4:23PM0 -
Blynjubitr✭✭✭There are two things that can be happening, either ZoS doesn't want to fix current bugs and issues because they think it is not a big deal or the game is beyond broken even they have no idea how to fix it and don't want to invest time and money into it.
So yeah let's buff heavy attacks and nerf light attacks that would destroy our barely working combat system completely why not.
I mean i am not trying to attack ZoS here but i just want them to stop creating content for a broken game and take whatever time they need to fix criticle issues we are having. That would make me a happy man. Because tbh if my skills won't work in next patch i don't really care about new zone or new raid.0 -
merevie✭✭✭✭✭Developers need to ask themselves what people will do to counter this.
What will it be like when people spot a DK 2H build in the distance?
What will they do?
Obviously remove it before it is in range and spam streak when it is.
Then an entire new counter meta is formed that involves a style of game play that will make shield stacking look like a minor problem.Edited by merevie on April 15, 2020 7:33AM0 -
sproattt✭✭✭On a real note. Xbox EU is beyond unplayable now, don't know how bad it is on NA or other platforms but skill delay, hit delay, cc break delay... Any delay you name it it's there on Xbox EU. We can't justify any changes to skills, clssses when performance in PvP is abbysmal. I rarely pve besides doing your maelstrom arena once a week. Even then, the delay is noticeable. The games in its worst place it's been.Stamblade Main.0