The Gold Road Chapter – which includes the Scribing system – and Update 42 is now available to test on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/656454/
Werewolf underperforming?
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Jimmy_The_Fixer✭✭✭✭✭No, they are fine25% more damage in exchange for 25% higher cost is a fair trade off, the form is more limited on options but you can do the same amount of X in less time. Wanting even higher damage is just advocating for an unbalanced game.
Only problem is that the only self-heal costs mana and scales off health, makes defensive sustain too focused on stats that you don’t want. If I were King Balance I would decree that one of the morphs would cost stam and scale off wepdam/ (Scaled like Breath of Life but with +25% cost and +25%power), and then make the fear cost mana so you have something to spend magicka on.0 -
Chrlynsch✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Yes, they need a buffJimmy_The_Fixer wrote: »25% more damage in exchange for 25% higher cost is a fair trade off, the form is more limited on options but you can do the same amount of X in less time. Wanting even higher damage is just advocating for an unbalanced game.
Only problem is that the only self-heal costs mana and scales off health, makes defensive sustain too focused on stats that you don’t want. If I were King Balance I would decree that one of the morphs would cost stam and scale off wepdam/ (Scaled like Breath of Life but with +25% cost and +25%power), and then make the fear cost mana so you have something to spend magicka on.
Wait... you said they are fine, but yet you say they have a problem and need fixed...
Mr. Fixer, you have me confused.Caius
Pack Leader of Scourge Alliance- First Fang of Hircine, The Beast of Bruma
PC NA0 -
Qbiken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Yes, they need a buffJimmy_The_Fixer wrote: »25% more damage in exchange for 25% higher cost is a fair trade off, the form is more limited on options but you can do the same amount of X in less time. Wanting even higher damage is just advocating for an unbalanced game.
Only problem is that the only self-heal costs mana and scales off health, makes defensive sustain too focused on stats that you don’t want. If I were King Balance I would decree that one of the morphs would cost stam and scale off wepdam/ (Scaled like Breath of Life but with +25% cost and +25%power), and then make the fear cost mana so you have something to spend magicka on.
The first problem is that ww doesn't come with 25% more powerful and 25% higher cost. I can't remember the exact numbers from @Chrlynsch , but ww was significantly weaker than the 25% ZOS aims for, and significantly more expensive than the 25% they aim for as well.
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Maxdevil✭✭✭Yes, they need a buffI am curious to know what zos have to say about the result of the topicEdited by Maxdevil on March 6, 2020 4:43PM"Maxdevil knows much, and tells some. Maxdevil knows many things others do not."
Pc-Na0 -
Maxdevil✭✭✭Yes, they need a buffJust check that and click on show previous quotes I found it on another threadEdited by Maxdevil on March 7, 2020 4:27PM"Maxdevil knows much, and tells some. Maxdevil knows many things others do not."
Pc-Na0 -
Maxdevil✭✭✭Yes, they need a buffThis is not a nerf other sources of healing post.
I want to compare the werewolf heal to other DD's healing capabilities. I am using Molag Kena, New Moon Acolyte, and Clever Alchemist. This will give us close to top tooltip numbers for our DD heals, while also focusing Effective damage.
Remember werewolf ability are now balanced on a 25% more powerful 25% more costly factor.
Here we are in werewolf form with the sets procced with close to 28k Health.
In pvp we are looking at a little over a 7k burst self heal.
1.1640574564 health restored/ resource spent.
Now let's look at what the human form can pull with its vigor.
12.5k health restored over 4 seconds
3.5736891095 health restored/ resource spent.
2.69 health restored/ resource spent.
7.8k health restored over 5 seconds
The next two I swap over to a magic spected toon. Using the same gear.
4.27 health restored/ resource spent.
Almost 12.5k health
7,481 health restored
1.50 health restored/ resource spent
3.77 if we use it on a target that is below 75% health
Here one of the most expensive heals in the game outpaces Hircine's fortitude in terms of healing effectiveness.
Summary:
In order for werewolf to remain competitive in pvp, the healing properties of Hircine's Heal needs to be adjusted. It is a tank heal, that does not fit into Werewolf's damage dealing archetype that ZOS has stated that werewolf is.
As other DD gain damage they also gain survival through the strength of their heal. In order for werewolf to gain survival they must sacrifice their damage by investing into Health, Magicka, and Magicka regen. This goes against their 25% more powerful abilities for 25% more cost.
@ZOS_BrianWheeler
On top of that, classes and weapons have access to many healing passives that can help boost those heals either through major and minor Mending buffs as well as unique %based heals.
Many of the linked abilities can also heal allies as well which also means that someone can use them on you as well, werewolf is completely selfish and adds no group survival. This probably would be ok if they boasted the best single target damage and self heal in the game but as we see that just isn't possible.
Other dd classes also have their primary heal cost their primary resource... werewolf does not."Maxdevil knows much, and tells some. Maxdevil knows many things others do not."
Pc-Na0 -
Maxdevil✭✭✭Yes, they need a buffWerewolf primary heal is weaker than many heals in the game and it’s almost the only heal ww can have. Without purge and by having only 1 weak healing source werewolf are really weak so to be able to survive you need 35k-40k+ resistance and high hp recovery. You need to sacrifice a lot of damage into hp to have better heal, into Magicka because of your heal ,into stamina for your recovery, into mitigation and all that make you lose pressure and damageEdited by Maxdevil on March 7, 2020 10:10PM"Maxdevil knows much, and tells some. Maxdevil knows many things others do not."
Pc-Na0 -
Maxdevil✭✭✭Yes, they need a buffI checked a bit on forums and one of the cause that they are lacking damage is their bleed,it has been hugely nerfed by 36% and damage by claws been nerfed by 40% and bleed are now affected by resistance and they don’t have any “special” effect since pretty much all other type of damage have a special effect. For example disease damage have a chance to apply minor defile, lightning damage can apply minor vulnerability.Edited by Maxdevil on March 10, 2020 4:29PM"Maxdevil knows much, and tells some. Maxdevil knows many things others do not."
Pc-Na0 -
Commancho✭✭✭✭✭At this point, they should remove counter, change some passives/sets and consuming corpses should restore health/stamina/magicka instead of extending counter (which would be removed). Running in werewolf form should be also a criminal act. Pernament form on demand would be pretty neat, because we could enjoy playstyle without wasting 50% of our time on searching&consuming a bodies.Edited by Commancho on March 18, 2020 11:32PM1
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Maxdevil✭✭✭Yes, they need a buffI think zos should simply rework the werewolf as the vampire will be"Maxdevil knows much, and tells some. Maxdevil knows many things others do not."
Pc-Na1 -
Tommy_The_Gun✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Yes, they need a buff
Agree, but WW rly does not need a "huge" rework. WW mechanics, transformation, feeding is working fine and this is the only part of WW ZOS has done right. It is "balanced".I think zos should simply rework the werewolf as the vampire will be
WW just needs some strong buffs. It lacks in its utility & toolkit. Even the pack leader morph (that ZOS claimed will be utility focused) is lacking utility lol.
Also, WW relied heavily on bleed dmg to have pressure dmg. The moment ZOS changed how bleed dmg works, WWs felt it the most as all of the sudden their pressure dmg & dmg overall was gone. All of the sudden WW needed to build for penetration on top of what they had to build previously (stamina & magicka sustain, weapon dmg, weapon crit) and this is simply too much. It is impossible to build for so many things.
Meanwhile non-ww builds can simply use Onslaught (even on magicka builds) and simply ignore building for high penetration.Edited by Tommy_The_Gun on March 21, 2020 1:26PM2 -
Maxdevil✭✭✭"Maxdevil knows much, and tells some. Maxdevil knows many things others do not."
Pc-Na0 -
Tommy_The_Gun✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Yes, they need a buff
Yep, I am still kinda shocked and in disbeliefWe finally got it guys
https://youtu.be/FKztVInEYQs
Anyway, it is pre-pts so a lot can change. So I would not count chickens before they hatch.
But... fingers crossed !
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precambria✭✭✭✭✭Please make Dogform more viable, the leaked changes look OK but nothing compared to what vampires are gaining, basically there needs to be an out of form spell or a way to conserve in ult when leaving transformed early to allow for proper shifting1 -
DreadDaedroth✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yes, they need a buffA little improvement. It depends on how they'll work light and heavy attacks and sets used by werewolves like blood moon and Molag Kena that's going to be worse than Iceheart.0 -
NeoXanthus✭✭✭✭I have five PvP characters that are all werewolves. All but one I have tuned quite well in 1vX game play because of sets that are complimentary to the WW style of play. I really don’t want ZoS to buff them as it means they will nerf them hard next cycle and from my experience over the years DoT are a classic example of this.
If your base WW is performing at 5 on a scale from 1 to 10. ZoS will buff it to an 8 then when PvP-er engineer the forums because they get killed too much by WW ZoS will nerf them to a 1. Then when people complain ZoS will rebuff them to a 3. But what you don’t realize it is a net loss of 2 from the original 5. Please just leave them be if you know what you are doing, they are formidable in PvP.
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Chrlynsch✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Yes, they need a buffNeoXanthus wrote: »I have five PvP characters that are all werewolves. All but one I have tuned quite well in 1vX game play because of sets that are complimentary to the WW style of play. I really don’t want ZoS to buff them as it means they will nerf them hard next cycle and from my experience over the years DoT are a classic example of this.
If your base WW is performing at 5 on a scale from 1 to 10. ZoS will buff it to an 8 then when PvP-er engineer the forums because they get killed too much by WW ZoS will nerf them to a 1. Then when people complain ZoS will rebuff them to a 3. But what you don’t realize it is a net loss of 2 from the original 5. Please just leave them be if you know what you are doing, they are formidable in PvP.
This just makes me sad to see. Don't settle for mediocrity.Caius
Pack Leader of Scourge Alliance- First Fang of Hircine, The Beast of Bruma
PC NA1 -
NeoXanthus✭✭✭✭NeoXanthus wrote: »I have five PvP characters that are all werewolves. All but one I have tuned quite well in 1vX game play because of sets that are complimentary to the WW style of play. I really don’t want ZoS to buff them as it means they will nerf them hard next cycle and from my experience over the years DoT are a classic example of this.
If your base WW is performing at 5 on a scale from 1 to 10. ZoS will buff it to an 8 then when PvP-er engineer the forums because they get killed too much by WW ZoS will nerf them to a 1. Then when people complain ZoS will rebuff them to a 3. But what you don’t realize it is a net loss of 2 from the original 5. Please just leave them be if you know what you are doing, they are formidable in PvP.
This just makes me sad to see. Don't settle for mediocrity.
I absolutely love my WW PvP builds. I am not settling I have great performing PvP WW and I see this WW buff as a mistake. What I am saying based on past experience when ZoS starts to mess with balance like this in most cases it does not end well. The issue is an overcorrection. Look at past Speed builds, DoT builds, and NB in general. The cycle is predictable. I really hope I am wrong.2 -
Gilvoth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭NeoXanthus wrote: »NeoXanthus wrote: »I have five PvP characters that are all werewolves. All but one I have tuned quite well in 1vX game play because of sets that are complimentary to the WW style of play. I really don’t want ZoS to buff them as it means they will nerf them hard next cycle and from my experience over the years DoT are a classic example of this.
If your base WW is performing at 5 on a scale from 1 to 10. ZoS will buff it to an 8 then when PvP-er engineer the forums because they get killed too much by WW ZoS will nerf them to a 1. Then when people complain ZoS will rebuff them to a 3. But what you don’t realize it is a net loss of 2 from the original 5. Please just leave them be if you know what you are doing, they are formidable in PvP.
This just makes me sad to see. Don't settle for mediocrity.
I absolutely love my WW PvP builds. I am not settling I have great performing PvP WW and I see this WW buff as a mistake. What I am saying based on past experience when ZoS starts to mess with balance like this in most cases it does not end well. The issue is an overcorrection. Look at past Speed builds, DoT builds, and NB in general. The cycle is predictable. I really hope I am wrong.
exactly, and well said.1 -
Chrlynsch✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Yes, they need a buffNeoXanthus wrote: »NeoXanthus wrote: »I have five PvP characters that are all werewolves. All but one I have tuned quite well in 1vX game play because of sets that are complimentary to the WW style of play. I really don’t want ZoS to buff them as it means they will nerf them hard next cycle and from my experience over the years DoT are a classic example of this.
If your base WW is performing at 5 on a scale from 1 to 10. ZoS will buff it to an 8 then when PvP-er engineer the forums because they get killed too much by WW ZoS will nerf them to a 1. Then when people complain ZoS will rebuff them to a 3. But what you don’t realize it is a net loss of 2 from the original 5. Please just leave them be if you know what you are doing, they are formidable in PvP.
This just makes me sad to see. Don't settle for mediocrity.
I absolutely love my WW PvP builds. I am not settling I have great performing PvP WW and I see this WW buff as a mistake. What I am saying based on past experience when ZoS starts to mess with balance like this in most cases it does not end well. The issue is an overcorrection. Look at past Speed builds, DoT builds, and NB in general. The cycle is predictable. I really hope I am wrong.
I'm not doubting that you can make werewolf work and that you are having fun, heck I do the same and I have probably squeezed just about all the potential that a werewolf build has to offer. Even if I can take out 87% of the games' population in 1v1s as a wolf does not mean that werewolf is over performing. It just means that I am a good player that can perform well with undergeared spec, and most likely I would perform even better with a meta spec.
The problem I see is that werewolf abilities straight up are not balanced according to ZOS's vision 25% more powerful, for 25% more cost, I've done the math. I don't think werewolf is too far off from being where it needs to be.
But if the changes go through with LA's or even if they get nerfed for the 4th time since Wolfhunter, your going to wish that werewolf abilities got brought up to par. Because we will no longer be "carried" by that sustain free damage.
There seams to be a lot of moving parts with this patch, and we have yet to see what our passives, morphs, and ability scaling become, but I for one am glad they are taking time to tweek and possibly build on the potental of the werewolf.Caius
Pack Leader of Scourge Alliance- First Fang of Hircine, The Beast of Bruma
PC NA0 -
Tommy_The_Gun✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Yes, they need a buff
Well, WW was fine. I don't think there was a reason to change it at all. And yet ZOS went for heavy handed nerfs last year, making WW useless and not even viable. Idk who do you fight against, but even half a decent player knows how to fight vs WW. I am also pretty sure that you are referring to No-CP PvP, probably in the IC group vs solo new players. It is the only situation WW may be used.NeoXanthus wrote: »NeoXanthus wrote: »I have five PvP characters that are all werewolves. All but one I have tuned quite well in 1vX game play because of sets that are complimentary to the WW style of play. I really don’t want ZoS to buff them as it means they will nerf them hard next cycle and from my experience over the years DoT are a classic example of this.
If your base WW is performing at 5 on a scale from 1 to 10. ZoS will buff it to an 8 then when PvP-er engineer the forums because they get killed too much by WW ZoS will nerf them to a 1. Then when people complain ZoS will rebuff them to a 3. But what you don’t realize it is a net loss of 2 from the original 5. Please just leave them be if you know what you are doing, they are formidable in PvP.
This just makes me sad to see. Don't settle for mediocrity.
I absolutely love my WW PvP builds. I am not settling I have great performing PvP WW and I see this WW buff as a mistake. What I am saying based on past experience when ZoS starts to mess with balance like this in most cases it does not end well. The issue is an overcorrection. Look at past Speed builds, DoT builds, and NB in general. The cycle is predictable. I really hope I am wrong.
But anyway, I would not be worried. WW can't get worse than it is now (utter useless ?). If WW are getting buffed it is only because they are underperforming by A LOT. In other words: It is a well deserved buff. Since ZOS is doing vampire overhaul next update, they probably do not want 90% to be vampires so they are buffing WW too, to be on "comparable" level. I guess they won't be OP if you are afraid of that. They will be more like "viable" - which is only thing I want.
We will see how things will develop. I Highly doubt we will see huge increase in WW population in PvP. Battlefield group mode is gone from the game anyway (the biggest source of complains about WWs - because in pre-made group everything is OP).1 -
NeoXanthus✭✭✭✭NeoXanthus wrote: »NeoXanthus wrote: »I have five PvP characters that are all werewolves. All but one I have tuned quite well in 1vX game play because of sets that are complimentary to the WW style of play. I really don’t want ZoS to buff them as it means they will nerf them hard next cycle and from my experience over the years DoT are a classic example of this.
If your base WW is performing at 5 on a scale from 1 to 10. ZoS will buff it to an 8 then when PvP-er engineer the forums because they get killed too much by WW ZoS will nerf them to a 1. Then when people complain ZoS will rebuff them to a 3. But what you don’t realize it is a net loss of 2 from the original 5. Please just leave them be if you know what you are doing, they are formidable in PvP.
This just makes me sad to see. Don't settle for mediocrity.
I absolutely love my WW PvP builds. I am not settling I have great performing PvP WW and I see this WW buff as a mistake. What I am saying based on past experience when ZoS starts to mess with balance like this in most cases it does not end well. The issue is an overcorrection. Look at past Speed builds, DoT builds, and NB in general. The cycle is predictable. I really hope I am wrong.
I'm not doubting that you can make werewolf work and that you are having fun, heck I do the same and I have probably squeezed just about all the potential that a werewolf build has to offer. Even if I can take out 87% of the games' population in 1v1s as a wolf does not mean that werewolf is over performing. It just means that I am a good player that can perform well with undergeared spec, and most likely I would perform even better with a meta spec.
The problem I see is that werewolf abilities straight up are not balanced according to ZOS's vision 25% more powerful, for 25% more cost, I've done the math. I don't think werewolf is too far off from being where it needs to be.
But if the changes go through with LA's or even if they get nerfed for the 4th time since Wolfhunter, your going to wish that werewolf abilities got brought up to par. Because we will no longer be "carried" by that sustain free damage.
There seams to be a lot of moving parts with this patch, and we have yet to see what our passives, morphs, and ability scaling become, but I for one am glad they are taking time to tweek and possibly build on the potental of the werewolf.
Currently I only play 30-day CP. For the first time in almost 7 years I am one with my PvP 1vX wolf I took the time to understand my play style and the WW strengths & weaknesses and then augment or compensate for them. After the last round of WW nerfs, I took a strong look at what I believed the strengths and weakness were then I broke out the pivot tables and started theory testing with different sets. Then after real testing some sets which looked great on paper even sets that were specifically designed for the WW ended up being less than great and others which seemed not ideal, were surprisingly effective. I am also glad we are talking about the WW, but ZoS has a very long-proven track record of overcorrecting and heck they have already done that to the WW in the past with Wolfhunter.NeoXanthus wrote: »NeoXanthus wrote: »I have five PvP characters that are all werewolves. All but one I have tuned quite well in 1vX game play because of sets that are complimentary to the WW style of play. I really don’t want ZoS to buff them as it means they will nerf them hard next cycle and from my experience over the years DoT are a classic example of this.
If your base WW is performing at 5 on a scale from 1 to 10. ZoS will buff it to an 8 then when PvP-er engineer the forums because they get killed too much by WW ZoS will nerf them to a 1. Then when people complain ZoS will rebuff them to a 3. But what you don’t realize it is a net loss of 2 from the original 5. Please just leave them be if you know what you are doing, they are formidable in PvP.
This just makes me sad to see. Don't settle for mediocrity.
I absolutely love my WW PvP builds. I am not settling I have great performing PvP WW and I see this WW buff as a mistake. What I am saying based on past experience when ZoS starts to mess with balance like this in most cases it does not end well. The issue is an overcorrection. Look at past Speed builds, DoT builds, and NB in general. The cycle is predictable. I really hope I am wrong.
I'm not doubting that you can make werewolf work and that you are having fun, heck I do the same and I have probably squeezed just about all the potential that a werewolf build has to offer. Even if I can take out 87% of the games' population in 1v1s as a wolf does not mean that werewolf is over performing. It just means that I am a good player that can perform well with undergeared spec, and most likely I would perform even better with a meta spec.
The problem I see is that werewolf abilities straight up are not balanced according to ZOS's vision 25% more powerful, for 25% more cost, I've done the math. I don't think werewolf is too far off from being where it needs to be.
But if the changes go through with LA's or even if they get nerfed for the 4th time since Wolfhunter, your going to wish that werewolf abilities got brought up to par. Because we will no longer be "carried" by that sustain free damage.
There seams to be a lot of moving parts with this patch, and we have yet to see what our passives, morphs, and ability scaling become, but I for one am glad they are taking time to tweek and possibly build on the potental of the werewolf.
Currently I only play 30-day CP. For the first time in almost 7 years I am one with my PvP 1vX wolf I took the time to understand my play style and the WW strengths & weaknesses and then augment or compensate for them. After the last round of WW nerfs, I took a strong look at what I believed the strengths and weakness were then I broke out the pivot tables and started theory testing with different sets. Then after real testing some sets which looked great on paper even sets that were specifically designed for the WW ended up being less than great and others which seemed not ideal, were surprisingly effective. I am also glad we are talking about the WW, but ZoS has a very long-proven track record of overcorrecting and heck they have already done that to the WW in the past with Wolfhunter.1