Werewolf underperforming?

Maxdevil

Hello everyone ,I started a werewolf build (a lot of hp rec with alessian,molag kena and shacklebreaker) and i feel that it is really underperforming vs other non werewolf build. I saw a topic that was talking about if werewolf should be buff or no about a year ago and about half of the people was for a buff and the other half said they were fine like that. I would like to see the point of view of eso pvp community now

MartiniDaniels

Yes, they need a buff

They are not underperforming.... they are not performing at all.
ZOS put WW to "standard" but forgot that WW has only one bar and that many passives don't work in WW form...

Qbiken

Yes, they need a buff

Seeing how ZOS has ignored more or less all feedback given in this thread:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/416461/class-rep-werewolf-feedback-thread#latest

Don´t get your hopes up...............

Edit: Will be interesting to see those who think WW´s are fine according to this poll. And to be fair, if you die to a ww in a 1v1 in PvP after Scalebreaker, you need to L2P

Maxdevil

Yes, they need a buff

Qbiken wrote: »

Seeing how ZOS has ignored more or less all feedback given in this thread:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/416461/class-rep-werewolf-feedback-thread#latest

Don´t get your hopes up...............

Edit: Will be interesting to see those who think WW´s are fine according to this poll. And to be fair, if you die to a ww in a 1v1 in PvP after Scalebreaker, you need to L2P

Qbiken wrote: »

Seeing how ZOS has ignored more or less all feedback given in this thread:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/416461/class-rep-werewolf-feedback-thread#latest

Don´t get your hopes up...............

The best to be heard is to talk

Nord_Raseri

Yes, they need a buff

Ww is now smoldering embers of a dumpster fire at a fish market

Maxdevil

Yes, they need a buff

Oops the quote didn’t work as I planned lol but I was saying that the best way to be heard is to talk

Maxdevil

Yes, they need a buff

Sometimes zos can listen when people are all sharing the same idea

Maxdevil

Yes, they need a buff

Maxdevil wrote: »

Sometimes zos can listen when people are all sharing the same idea

or not after seeing the topic you linked lol

Rahar

Yes, they need a buff

WW shouldn't be so powerful that it's a one-stop shop for anyone looking to succeed in PvP (and by extension there should be little to no builds made around it alone), but it should at least have use besides ending my run when I fatfinger it.

Carespanker

Yes, they need a buff

In pve WW's are kicked out of every group upon transformation and in pvp they are laughed at till they die of mange. The unanimous vote to buff them is lovely to see though lol.

Iskiab

Yes, they need a buff

Definitely, I liked it a lot better when werewolves were mixed in with other classes, it made pvp more interesting.

WWs were OP in lowby BGs because they have decent cc and lowbies usually haven’t unlocked the counters, and ZoS went way overboard in their nerfs.

Qbiken

Yes, they need a buff

Rahar wrote: »

WW shouldn't be so powerful that it's a one-stop shop for anyone looking to succeed in PvP (and by extension there should be little to no builds made around it alone), but it should at least have use besides ending my run when I fatfinger it.

If someone build around being powerful in ww form alone (and by that sacrificing their effectiveness in human form), they should definitely be powerful enough as they were back in Elsweyr, which was the last patch they were viable in from a PvP perspective.

Luede

Qbiken wrote: »

Rahar wrote: »

WW shouldn't be so powerful that it's a one-stop shop for anyone looking to succeed in PvP (and by extension there should be little to no builds made around it alone), but it should at least have use besides ending my run when I fatfinger it.

If someone build around being powerful in ww form alone (and by that sacrificing their effectiveness in human form), they should definitely be powerful enough as they were back in Elsweyr, which was the last patch they were viable in from a PvP perspective.

Nobrainer 1 bar builds should never be on the same level as 2 bar builds.

Tommy_The_Gun

Yes, they need a buff

Qbiken wrote: »

Rahar wrote: »

WW shouldn't be so powerful that it's a one-stop shop for anyone looking to succeed in PvP (and by extension there should be little to no builds made around it alone), but it should at least have use besides ending my run when I fatfinger it.

Elsweyr, which was the last patch they were viable in from a PvP perspective.

tbh. even in Elsweyr they were underperforming. WW relayed mostly on bleed dmg - and it took heavy nerf as a mechanic in general, because bleed was (paradoxally) over performing in other, non - WW builds.

Qbiken

Yes, they need a buff

Luede wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Rahar wrote: »

WW shouldn't be so powerful that it's a one-stop shop for anyone looking to succeed in PvP (and by extension there should be little to no builds made around it alone), but it should at least have use besides ending my run when I fatfinger it.

If someone build around being powerful in ww form alone (and by that sacrificing their effectiveness in human form), they should definitely be powerful enough as they were back in Elsweyr, which was the last patch they were viable in from a PvP perspective.

Nobrainer 1 bar builds should never be on the same level as 2 bar builds.

If you think ww is a no brainer build (pvp) you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

And don't act like 2 bar builds on the stamina side are more skillfull. Lowkey equip fury + bloodspawn +nma and off you go on literally evey stamina spec in the game (exception would be stamblade perhaps)

I can assure you that you'll spend more time theorycrafting a successful ww build than a non ww build (assuming you want to fight competent players).

Maxdevil

Yes, they need a buff

Qbiken wrote: »

Luede wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Rahar wrote: »

WW shouldn't be so powerful that it's a one-stop shop for anyone looking to succeed in PvP (and by extension there should be little to no builds made around it alone), but it should at least have use besides ending my run when I fatfinger it.

If someone build around being powerful in ww form alone (and by that sacrificing their effectiveness in human form), they should definitely be powerful enough as they were back in Elsweyr, which was the last patch they were viable in from a PvP perspective.

Nobrainer 1 bar builds should never be on the same level as 2 bar builds.

If you think ww is a no brainer build (pvp) you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

And don't act like 2 bar builds on the stamina side are more skillfull. Lowkey equip fury + bloodspawn +nma and off you go on literally evey stamina spec in the game (exception would be stamblade perhaps)

I can assure you that you'll spend more time theorycrafting a successful ww build than a non ww build (assuming you want to fight competent players).

Well said I think

Rahar

Yes, they need a buff

Qbiken wrote: »

Rahar wrote: »

WW shouldn't be so powerful that it's a one-stop shop for anyone looking to succeed in PvP (and by extension there should be little to no builds made around it alone), but it should at least have use besides ending my run when I fatfinger it.

If someone build around being powerful in ww form alone (and by that sacrificing their effectiveness in human form), they should definitely be powerful enough as they were back in Elsweyr, which was the last patch they were viable in from a PvP perspective.

I don't agree. Not because it's a 'no-brainer' build or some variation of words thereof, but because building for one skill as an end-all-be-all isn't a healthy gameplay style to promote, both due to the balancing issues it implies and because decent gameplay kind of needs certain skills to fulfill certain means so they can be outplayed, countered, and used wisely. If WW is just the answer to everything, then where's the depth?

Personally, I'd like to see it turned into a short duration super saiyan power kind of form, where it's very strong for decently short periods of time, a bit like overload on a magsorc if it worked right... not something you build for and camp in your entire dungeon/BG run.

I hope that makes sense.

Qbiken

Yes, they need a buff

Rahar wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Rahar wrote: »

WW shouldn't be so powerful that it's a one-stop shop for anyone looking to succeed in PvP (and by extension there should be little to no builds made around it alone), but it should at least have use besides ending my run when I fatfinger it.

If someone build around being powerful in ww form alone (and by that sacrificing their effectiveness in human form), they should definitely be powerful enough as they were back in Elsweyr, which was the last patch they were viable in from a PvP perspective.

I don't agree. Not because it's a 'no-brainer' build or some variation of words thereof, but because building for one skill as an end-all-be-all isn't a healthy gameplay style to promote, both due to the balancing issues it implies and because decent gameplay kind of needs certain skills to fulfill certain means so they can be outplayed, countered, and used wisely. If WW is just the answer to everything, then where's the depth?

Personally, I'd like to see it turned into a short duration super saiyan power kind of form, where it's very strong for decently short periods of time, a bit like overload on a magsorc if it worked right... not something you build for and camp in your entire dungeon/BG run.

I hope that makes sense.

I just disagree, a skilled player should be able to achieve permawolf. If werewolf is just becoming another burst ultimate it will just kill the ultimate completely.

Tommy_The_Gun

Yes, they need a buff

Luede wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Rahar wrote: »

WW shouldn't be so powerful that it's a one-stop shop for anyone looking to succeed in PvP (and by extension there should be little to no builds made around it alone), but it should at least have use besides ending my run when I fatfinger it.

If someone build around being powerful in ww form alone (and by that sacrificing their effectiveness in human form), they should definitely be powerful enough as they were back in Elsweyr, which was the last patch they were viable in from a PvP perspective.

Nobrainer 1 bar builds should never be on the same level as 2 bar builds.

But the thing is... it never was...
Even before a huge nerf it took last year, WW when min-maxed had 30 - 40% lower DPS than non-ww DPS build.
Was it BiS ? No.
Was it close to BiS ? No.
Was it "good enough" ? Yes.
And this is exactly what people wanted. To be at least decent and viable. PvE WW was basically trading lower maximum DPS for simpler one-bar play-style (btw. if WW would get 2nd bar & more complicated rotation - that would be awesom tbh).
Anyway - If you were going for hard mode trials or for the scoreboards - chances are, you were not even thinking of using WW.

Currently, there is no benefit / trade-off, as in PvE, WW DPS, even if min-maxed - is simple not even viable.

As for the other aspects (most noticeable when one will try to PvP), WW has VERY limited and handicapped toolkit (which I think is another part of the trade-off for one-bar play-style).
WW can only use WW skills with no ult. It also does not benefit from weapon passives. 2 things that are the biggest pain-point, is lack of negative effects removal & snare removal / immunity tool.

Keep in mind that devs wanted WW to be "fast paced"...

How on earth is WW supposed to be fast with no CC removal tool in its toolkit ? ? ?

Fawn4287

No, they are fine

Make it not be able to be replenished before even considering in any way buffing it, in the sewers you can have infinite up time on it and it hits very hard considering most people just spam light attacks with it.

Maxdevil

Yes, they need a buff

I was trying my build today and it is not performing at all lol

Kilcosu

Yes, they need a buff

it feels like the combat team is outright holding a grudge against the werewolf playstyle for some unknown crime committed.

like that feeling you get when you know your manager at work or teacher at school just "doesn't like you" no matter what you

when confronted about it they outright deny it and you can't do anything about it due to their stature.

you either press on or you give in. in this case it's unslotting werewolf and just playing the meta that has gone untouched

Qbiken

Yes, they need a buff

Fawn4287 wrote: »

Make it not be able to be replenished before even considering in any way buffing it, in the sewers you can have infinite up time on it and it hits very hard considering most people just spam light attacks with it.

WW hitting hard? What daedric realm do you live in ? Even a ww investing fully into damage will hit for less than a non ww.......

WW is wet noodle factory after all the damage nerfs they've gotten (due to ZOS "standardisation")

Hotdog_23

Iskiab wrote: »

Definitely, I liked it a lot better when werewolves were mixed in with other classes, it made pvp more interesting.

WWs were OP in lowby BGs because they have decent cc and lowbies usually haven’t unlocked the counters, and ZoS went way overboard in their nerfs.

Bolded my thoughts exactly on why the state of WW is where it is today.

Luede

Qbiken wrote: »

Luede wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Rahar wrote: »

WW shouldn't be so powerful that it's a one-stop shop for anyone looking to succeed in PvP (and by extension there should be little to no builds made around it alone), but it should at least have use besides ending my run when I fatfinger it.

If someone build around being powerful in ww form alone (and by that sacrificing their effectiveness in human form), they should definitely be powerful enough as they were back in Elsweyr, which was the last patch they were viable in from a PvP perspective.

Nobrainer 1 bar builds should never be on the same level as 2 bar builds.

If you think ww is a no brainer build (pvp) you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

And don't act like 2 bar builds on the stamina side are more skillfull. Lowkey equip fury + bloodspawn +nma and off you go on literally evey stamina spec in the game (exception would be stamblade perhaps)

I can assure you that you'll spend more time theorycrafting a successful ww build than a non ww build (assuming you want to fight competent players).

yeah sure, because everybody is a big theorycrafter or inventing their own builds and setups. in contrast to most of the others i use my own build, which i have never seen in pvp, but i can promise , its not complicate to use google...


I am not saying that the skill tree does not need any revision. But it should play a role in effectiveness, whether you have to press 6 buttons or 12

juhislihis19

Yes, they need a buff

Werewolf is underperforming - understatement of the year to be honest.. WW's are irrelevant, that's how bad they are

Rahar

Yes, they need a buff

Qbiken wrote: »

Rahar wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Rahar wrote: »

WW shouldn't be so powerful that it's a one-stop shop for anyone looking to succeed in PvP (and by extension there should be little to no builds made around it alone), but it should at least have use besides ending my run when I fatfinger it.

If someone build around being powerful in ww form alone (and by that sacrificing their effectiveness in human form), they should definitely be powerful enough as they were back in Elsweyr, which was the last patch they were viable in from a PvP perspective.

I don't agree. Not because it's a 'no-brainer' build or some variation of words thereof, but because building for one skill as an end-all-be-all isn't a healthy gameplay style to promote, both due to the balancing issues it implies and because decent gameplay kind of needs certain skills to fulfill certain means so they can be outplayed, countered, and used wisely. If WW is just the answer to everything, then where's the depth?

Personally, I'd like to see it turned into a short duration super saiyan power kind of form, where it's very strong for decently short periods of time, a bit like overload on a magsorc if it worked right... not something you build for and camp in your entire dungeon/BG run.

I hope that makes sense.

I just disagree, a skilled player should be able to achieve permawolf. If werewolf is just becoming another burst ultimate it will just kill the ultimate completely.

I could see it working either way. Back in WoW, druids had different forms you could access any time by pressing a skill and using a GCD, and you'd get access to other skills that had a defined purpose depending on the form. It was seriously defining, satisfying, and amazing for class identity. I saw WW being useful/defining in that way, with a low ult cost on the skill and WW morphs/skills being useful for whatever purpose fits the most, like CC, pressure, dots, utility, whatever. As it is now, the high ult cost and low use for the skills means the ult is quite often delegated to a backbar skill for the 15% regen that's a death sentence if used (or fatfingered).

In that way, I didn't mean that it would become a burst damage skill, but I would like to see it become very tied to your playstyle/identity when you decide to run it, whatever that purpose might be, instead of being the only identity when you run it. You're not just a werewolf -- you're a skilled sorcerer/dk/templar/whatever who transforms into a werewolf as the fight needs it.

DocFrost72

Werewolves are a bad choice for

PvE dps
PvE tanking
PvE healing
PvE soloing

PvP open world solo
PvP battlegrounds (especially since you can't group queue now)


You could make a case for PvP group play, but there are still better options.

The link Qbiken provided shows the summary of months of testing and feedback. ZOS then stated werewolves were "in a good place" after that.

Sadly I don't think our situation will change. I'm still trying to make a solo pve werewolf build that is as effective as just running lord warden and vigor on my dps.

zDan

Yes, they need a buff

Definitely super bad in an open world scenario. No snare removal, a single burst heal that costs mag... I've been wanting to hop on one lately but the quest is still bugged so I guess I'll come back to it next year lmao

Qbiken

Yes, they need a buff

Rahar wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Rahar wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Rahar wrote: »

WW shouldn't be so powerful that it's a one-stop shop for anyone looking to succeed in PvP (and by extension there should be little to no builds made around it alone), but it should at least have use besides ending my run when I fatfinger it.

If someone build around being powerful in ww form alone (and by that sacrificing their effectiveness in human form), they should definitely be powerful enough as they were back in Elsweyr, which was the last patch they were viable in from a PvP perspective.

I don't agree. Not because it's a 'no-brainer' build or some variation of words thereof, but because building for one skill as an end-all-be-all isn't a healthy gameplay style to promote, both due to the balancing issues it implies and because decent gameplay kind of needs certain skills to fulfill certain means so they can be outplayed, countered, and used wisely. If WW is just the answer to everything, then where's the depth?

Personally, I'd like to see it turned into a short duration super saiyan power kind of form, where it's very strong for decently short periods of time, a bit like overload on a magsorc if it worked right... not something you build for and camp in your entire dungeon/BG run.

I hope that makes sense.

I just disagree, a skilled player should be able to achieve permawolf. If werewolf is just becoming another burst ultimate it will just kill the ultimate completely.

I could see it working either way. Back in WoW, druids had different forms you could access any time by pressing a skill and using a GCD, and you'd get access to other skills that had a defined purpose depending on the form. It was seriously defining, satisfying, and amazing for class identity. I saw WW being useful/defining in that way, with a low ult cost on the skill and WW morphs/skills being useful for whatever purpose fits the most, like CC, pressure, dots, utility, whatever. As it is now, the high ult cost and low use for the skills means the ult is quite often delegated to a backbar skill for the 15% regen that's a death sentence if used (or fatfingered).

In that way, I didn't mean that it would become a burst damage skill, but I would like to see it become very tied to your playstyle/identity when you decide to run it, whatever that purpose might be, instead of being the only identity when you run it. You're not just a werewolf -- you're a skilled sorcerer/dk/templar/whatever who transforms into a werewolf as the fight needs it.

I've never really played WoW so can't really speak for the druid identity and how it compares to werewolf. But as far as I can remember, and for almost 2,5 year maining werewolf (stopped playing it with scalebreaker) and spending lots of time with more experienced ww players than myself, most if us agree that the the identity in ESO (from a PvP perspective) evolves around the tradeoff that you build around the ultimate itself, sacrificing your potential in human form to gain a nische advantage once you transform (and that nische advantage used to be an oppressive sustained single target pressure, which ww severely lacks atm). See werewolf as a "sub-class" rather than a skilline, and you're on the same page as myself

Werewolf used to have a purpose and being feared in PvP, but now it's free AP. If ZOS gave ww back it's previous damage capabilities by trading some of it's defensive sides (ngl, ww doesn't have good survivability atm either so nothing to really trade for now that I think about it), that would go along way.

But making ww temporary, a toggle or something completely "reworking", will most likely not turn out well. It didn't do so with wolfhunter at least....

Chrlynsch

Yes, they need a buff

Do better.