Irrational, angry resistance to changes to normal atks from all those who used to say "l2p, adapt.."

Runefang · March 2020

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

forztr2 wrote: »

if you're complaining about the loss of damage from light attacks than you're not as good as you think you are.

weaving will now give sustain

so you need less sustain in your build

so you can stack more damage

yes it'll still be a dps loss but not as big as you think

game will still require the same amount of skill to perform at the highest level

power creep had made dps too high as it was. This change clips the top end damage and boosts the low parses a little.

If you think it's so bad and plan too rage quit, can I have your stuff please, pretty please, pretty please with a cherry on top.

In PvE you really can't stack more damage than you already, so its a net 15-20% dps reduction. For stamina its probably not so bad because if light attacks provide sustain you can bash more. That means the APM went up, not down.

Well they will clearly have to adjust bash if they want to keep their stated goals.

There is nothing 'clearly' about it though. There are so many side effects to this change which they've not thought about. Like LA weaving becoming essential for healers and tanks to maintain resources therefore increasing their APM. Like optimal dps rotations now including even less damage skills than ever. Like more bashing for stamina dps now.

HEBREWHAMMERRR · March 2020

It’s funny, your very first paragraph you say weaving adds zero skill to combat. ZOS literally cites the reasoning behind the change as balancing the skill gap between players.

[Snip]

[Edited for bashing]

Toc de Malsvi · March 2020

Runefang wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

forztr2 wrote: »

if you're complaining about the loss of damage from light attacks than you're not as good as you think you are.

weaving will now give sustain

so you need less sustain in your build

so you can stack more damage

yes it'll still be a dps loss but not as big as you think

game will still require the same amount of skill to perform at the highest level

power creep had made dps too high as it was. This change clips the top end damage and boosts the low parses a little.

If you think it's so bad and plan too rage quit, can I have your stuff please, pretty please, pretty please with a cherry on top.

In PvE you really can't stack more damage than you already, so its a net 15-20% dps reduction. For stamina its probably not so bad because if light attacks provide sustain you can bash more. That means the APM went up, not down.

Well they will clearly have to adjust bash if they want to keep their stated goals.

There is nothing 'clearly' about it though. There are so many side effects to this change which they've not thought about. Like LA weaving becoming essential for healers and tanks to maintain resources therefore increasing their APM. Like optimal dps rotations now including even less damage skills than ever. Like more bashing for stamina dps now.

If they want to reduce the difference in APM outputs, then bash weaving increasing dps for higher APM is a clear violation of that attempt. Which means that it would definitely have to be adjusted.

That doesn’t mean the adjustment is clear. That means it’s obvious they cannot leave bash as it is now.

ZOS_Volpe · March 2020

Greetings all,

After removing a few posts that were inappropriate, we would like everyone to keep posts on the subject at hand, civil, and constructive.

Thank you for your understanding.

Joy_Division · March 2020

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

1) Light atk weaving, bash weaving, animation cancelling with dodge, bar swap, block TAKES ONLY HALF AN HOUR PRACTISE and even people from australia or other places with high ping can perform, if you have played video games for at least ONE YEAR in your life (not even......).
It adds ZERO skill to ESO combat

2) All the dps loss from the proposed changes:
a) affect all the players so EVERYBODY WILL LOSE and you won't be left behind unfairly
b) does not make content impossible to clear
c) IF the content became impossible, testing would show it and the Devs could reduce the HP of bosses and mobs

3) In every other major mmorpg (please dont mention ffxiv as an mmorpg..... it's the same as eso, a single player story questline) normal atks have functions. ESO is the only game in which "veteran" players find the simple task of left clicking before every GlobalCoolDown to add a bit of extra dps an AWESOME COMBAT FEATURE. What a joke. What a lazy way of showing your skill.
Fav example 1*, fav example 2**

4) The only thing you should be doing instead of saying "if you dont keep the same boring dps combat as it is I am leaving" you should figure out which abilities are impacted from this change and list them so that the devs should make changes to them, example Molten Armaments.

5) And finally your only real worry should be that as with any changes Zos does, you should be afraid that the performance will worsen, but that isn't a logical argument when discussing combatt- solely combat- in which the performance factor should be considered as functional. My question for one is: aren't those resource recovery calculations and the requirement of 3 Light atks (which I love as a concept) going to tax the server?

*Tera Online, normal atks would refill MP plus interrupt certain jumping, dashing, charged atks, leading to your opponent getting stunned or thrown to the ground. And yet "eso veterans" claim that light atk weaving adds SKILLs to eso combat. What a joke of a claim.......... I keep telling you there isnt skill in eso combat as it is. Only meta builds for small scale and AoE zerg fest of people with a certain build for the purposes of one button: spamming heal, spamming damage, spamming CC and buffs/debuffs around Crown

** Line][Age. A real mmorpg of open world pvp, map domination, and real worth of gear which helped your clear content and be competitive, not fight for you passively (proc sets)
normal atks there were part of your combat, your abilities with cooldowns needed to be used accordingly to the right enemy (does he hold a shield? does he wear robe but deal massive dmg? is he a rogue and with run away in a split of a second, or interrupt my ability by some trick?) No I will lure him into a different dance with a couple of normal atks since I can lightsteal or deal double crit dmg and then use my abilities smartly.

Let devs go a head for once with a truly meaningful change. All those veterans that claim that their skills will be lowered should l2p and adapt as they have said.
Your skill was nothing but meta build, which was a handful, totally against the play as you want spirit (I dont mean mage with bow, I mean truly developing combat style based on class and weapon selection).

Your skill was building a char (which EVERYONE COULD COPY AND USE EFFECTIVELLY WITHIN MINUTES) that TURTLES and changes to BURST as easily as possible.
Same defensive rotation whether you fight a brawler, rogue, nuker mage, tank, same atking rotation. Same rotation whether it was 1 enemy, same rotation whether it was 5 with a bit of LS running around....

I welcome the changes provided that they wont affect server performance (little hope zos... honestly...)
The next nice change would be to remove dmg from Max Magika and Max Stamina, remove spell/weapon crit and make it a CRITICAL CHANCE stat. Same with penetration. Let us build around real ability selection and not around trying to max out our DMG power.
And then I hope that you will revert those changes to class defining abilities. StamDK lost wings, without any discussion. StamDK could not spam wings due to limited magika availability, yet there were many players using them instead of playing the same old SnB/2h BS 7th Fury, the most OP stamDK build which... didn;t use wings.
Only magDK could shut down ranged players that werent smart enough to move away from a target that stands it's ground, or wear down the wings. Simple solution.... add fatigue cost. But no.. you just removed them completelly.

Hopefully real testers will give logical answers from within the PTS game. I cant wait for them to go ahead

Just because I disagree with how ZOS is handling this, does not make it angry or irrational.

To your points:

I also don;t think animation canceling is indicative of player skill. You're right, it isn;t hard to do at all. (Since it's not hard to do, I think there is way too much fuss about it).
I don;t have a problem with lower DPS. If anything, I think DPS is too high. But I think it would be better to go to the root of this issue, and that is the large amount of power creep.
I never played another MMO so I don't care about them nor do I think they have any relevance with what is going on in ESO. I play ESO and that's the game I care about.
The issue here is that there isn't enough attention being paid to our abilities, which are supposed to define our characters. Over the past year, what has ZOS concerned itself with? Dots buffed, Dots nerfed, off balance, standardized damage formulas, increasing all costs to AoE Dots, and now basic attacks. This is all basic stuff that quite frankly should have been sorted out in Beta and provide us with a solid foundation to build upon.
I don;t follow what you are saying about #5.

You say, "Let devs go a head for once with a truly meaningful change." OK, we've done that. Many times. Even when we didn't "let" them (Morrowind for example), they did it anyway. They have made many many many meaningful changes and yet here we are 6 years after launch and they are still trying to figure out what a basic attack should do. I think they have made too many meaningful changes, which creates instability and fails to establish a foundation to build upon.

If the idea ZOS had was to make ESO more intuitive, I fail to see how light attacks restoring resources and a succession of light attacks restoring more accomplished this. If ZOS wanted to reduce the skill gap, lowering light attack damage while keeping bash damage the same was most assuredly not the way to do that. I can light attack weave with no problem, but also bash canceling requires too much motor precision for me to get used to. Since light attacks, which are easier, are losing 78% damage, but bash, which is much harder, is keeping the same, the highly skilled people are going to do even more DPS than folks like me. None of this is really getting at why the best players in ESO do so much more damage than everyone else: with every increase in the power creep came a proportional increase in how much stronger the better players were than let's say the "middle class" or the ESO community, to say nothing of newer players.

So my disagreement has nothing to do with my DPS, or my belief that I am a skilled player or what other MMOs are doing. Rather I do not think it's the best way to address the issues ZOS is trying to address.

luen79rwb17_ESO · March 2020

Yes totally, bash needs to be fixed, it's a defensive mechanic that is currently being used to boost DPS. This is like saying I'm gonna boost my dps spamming shields wtf logics?

MilwaukeeScott · March 2020

Op. Best post of the week!

StaticWave · March 2020

Imagine being unable to literally click your left mouse every second... I don't understand this lmfao. Like just count 1, 2, 3 and left click whenever you count and you would have done a perfect LA weave rotation. As for the change to LA, i couldn't honestly care less about it. DPS is irrelevant in a PvP setting where burst damage and game knowledge are more important. This change would have done absolutely nothing for less experienced players. In fact it would probably hurt them even more because most players you see in cyrodiil do A LOT of light attacking. The buff to heavy attack actually makes burst potential in PvP a whole lot better for stamina players as well. Can't say much about magicka though looks like they got the short end of the stick

. The only issue I have with the change is the removal of heavy attack sustain. ZOS should have just kept it as it is on live and add the new LA mechanic.

Skjaldbjorn · March 2020

What I find most ironic is people thrilled for a nerf to LA weaving, yet those same people fail to understand this will just create a three-hit GCD rotation with LA/Skill/Bash cancel. Bashing does more than LAs now. It will be even more toxic and less inclusive because it's significantly harder than standard LA weaving.

Ignorance is a fine drug.