Irrational, angry resistance to changes to normal atks from all those who used to say "l2p, adapt.."

GeorgeBlack

1) Light atk weaving, bash weaving, animation cancelling with dodge, bar swap, block TAKES ONLY HALF AN HOUR PRACTISE and even people from australia or other places with high ping can perform, if you have played video games for at least ONE YEAR in your life (not even......).
It adds ZERO skill to ESO combat

2) All the dps loss from the proposed changes:
a) affect all the players so EVERYBODY WILL LOSE and you won't be left behind unfairly
b) does not make content impossible to clear
c) IF the content became impossible, testing would show it and the Devs could reduce the HP of bosses and mobs

3) In every other major mmorpg (please dont mention ffxiv as an mmorpg..... it's the same as eso, a single player story questline) normal atks have functions. ESO is the only game in which "veteran" players find the simple task of left clicking before every GlobalCoolDown to add a bit of extra dps an AWESOME COMBAT FEATURE. What a joke. What a lazy way of showing your skill.
Fav example 1*, fav example 2**

4) The only thing you should be doing instead of saying "if you dont keep the same boring dps combat as it is I am leaving" you should figure out which abilities are impacted from this change and list them so that the devs should make changes to them, example Molten Armaments.

5) And finally your only real worry should be that as with any changes Zos does, you should be afraid that the performance will worsen, but that isn't a logical argument when discussing combatt- solely combat- in which the performance factor should be considered as functional. My question for one is: aren't those resource recovery calculations and the requirement of 3 Light atks (which I love as a concept) going to tax the server?

*Tera Online, normal atks would refill MP plus interrupt certain jumping, dashing, charged atks, leading to your opponent getting stunned or thrown to the ground. And yet "eso veterans" claim that light atk weaving adds SKILLs to eso combat. What a joke of a claim.......... I keep telling you there isnt skill in eso combat as it is. Only meta builds for small scale and AoE zerg fest of people with a certain build for the purposes of one button: spamming heal, spamming damage, spamming CC and buffs/debuffs around Crown

** Line][Age. A real mmorpg of open world pvp, map domination, and real worth of gear which helped your clear content and be competitive, not fight for you passively (proc sets)
normal atks there were part of your combat, your abilities with cooldowns needed to be used accordingly to the right enemy (does he hold a shield? does he wear robe but deal massive dmg? is he a rogue and with run away in a split of a second, or interrupt my ability by some trick?) No I will lure him into a different dance with a couple of normal atks since I can lightsteal or deal double crit dmg and then use my abilities smartly.



Let devs go a head for once with a truly meaningful change. All those veterans that claim that their skills will be lowered should l2p and adapt as they have said.
Your skill was nothing but meta build, which was a handful, totally against the play as you want spirit (I dont mean mage with bow, I mean truly developing combat style based on class and weapon selection).

Your skill was building a char (which EVERYONE COULD COPY AND USE EFFECTIVELLY WITHIN MINUTES) that TURTLES and changes to BURST as easily as possible.
Same defensive rotation whether you fight a brawler, rogue, nuker mage, tank, same atking rotation. Same rotation whether it was 1 enemy, same rotation whether it was 5 with a bit of LS running around....


I welcome the changes provided that they wont affect server performance (little hope zos... honestly...)
The next nice change would be to remove dmg from Max Magika and Max Stamina, remove spell/weapon crit and make it a CRITICAL CHANCE stat. Same with penetration. Let us build around real ability selection and not around trying to max out our DMG power.
And then I hope that you will revert those changes to class defining abilities. StamDK lost wings, without any discussion. StamDK could not spam wings due to limited magika availability, yet there were many players using them instead of playing the same old SnB/2h BS 7th Fury, the most OP stamDK build which... didn;t use wings.
Only magDK could shut down ranged players that werent smart enough to move away from a target that stands it's ground, or wear down the wings. Simple solution.... add fatigue cost. But no.. you just removed them completelly.

Hopefully real testers will give logical answers from within the PTS game. I cant wait for them to go ahead

Alchimiste1

except you're wrong. Yes the meta build will help but fighting solo and outnumbered has a much higher learning curve, dueling also has a learning curve

Siohwenoeht

You're wrong about performance though. There won't be anyone left playing so servers should perform beautifully...

TheFM

Yeeeeeeah, everyone that weaves plays meta, ok buddy. 🦖

Kadoin

The thing is, if they were looking to reduce damage, ZOS missed the target yet again...

luen79rwb17_ESO

People that are angry are mostly those who have spent hours in front of a dummy, alienating themselves to a robotic state where you uncounciosly press certain mix of keyboard buttons and clicks and call it "rotation" and say that is "skill" on a... RPG!!! Yes, ESO is an RPG and guess what? There's nothing coming from character progression in all of this.

Oh and btw i've done it too, I have spent myself hours in front of dummies and once you get the hang of it and achieve your 75k, 80k+ DPS.. It actually feels unrewarding, at least to me.

MyPrist

luen79rwb17_ESO wrote: »

People that are angry are mostly those who have spent hours in front of a dummy, alienating themselves to a robotic state where you uncounciosly press certain mix of keyboard buttons and clicks and call it "rotation" and say that is "skill" on a... RPG!!! Yes, ESO is an RPG and guess what? There's nothing coming from character progression in all of this.

Oh and btw i've done it too, I have spent myself hours in front of dummies and once you get the hang of it and achieve your 75k, 80k+ DPS.. It actually feels unrewarding, at least to me.

In mmo you gather sets as example. If you need just delete it 3+ times a year what kind of mmo is it? Make perfect gold gear, rings and etc, change traits, spend all money ? Just do it again, becouse of rebalance.

Sharee

Kadoin wrote: »

The thing is, if they were looking to reduce damage, ZOS missed the target yet again...

They weren't looking to reduce damage, they were looking to reduce the actions-per-minute required to achieve the same damage.

ESO_Nightingale

Sharee wrote: »

Kadoin wrote: »

The thing is, if they were looking to reduce damage, ZOS missed the target yet again...

They weren't looking to reduce damage, they were looking to reduce the actions-per-minute required to achieve the same damage.

if they weren't looking to reduce damage, why did they nerf light attacks by 78%? people are still going to weave. don't get me wrong. reducing the damage is totally fine. but the only things that really needed to happen here were small nerfs to light attack damage and small buffs to heavy attack damage, along with the removal of the heavy attack slow and some of the excruciatingly long cast time on destro heavies. the way the resource system worked before was fine and it definitely worked well. now to sustain you have to weave light attacks which screws tanks something chronic and the thing that sucks is that people who needed to do heavies now have to waste so much time light attacking just to gain their resources back. it just does not work at all. the APM we had before was fine. People don't like channels or cast times and making heavy attacks a better form of light attacks means that the game gets less fast paced which is why a lot of people even play it in the first place.

TheFM

luen79rwb17_ESO wrote: »

People that are angry are mostly those who have spent hours in front of a dummy, alienating themselves to a robotic state where you uncounciosly press certain mix of keyboard buttons and clicks and call it "rotation" and say that is "skill" on a... RPG!!! Yes, ESO is an RPG and guess what? There's nothing coming from character progression in all of this.

Oh and btw i've done it too, I have spent myself hours in front of dummies and once you get the hang of it and achieve your 75k, 80k+ DPS.. It actually feels unrewarding, at least to me.

Or we practiced on live targets on cyrodiil because we realize that people who practice should always be better than those that do not. Like everything in life.

TheFM

Sharee wrote: »

Kadoin wrote: »

The thing is, if they were looking to reduce damage, ZOS missed the target yet again...

They weren't looking to reduce damage, they were looking to reduce the actions-per-minute required to achieve the same damage.

So they are punishing people for actually playing the game? Lol. Just lol.

darthgummibear_ESO

Light attack weaving isn't actually going away as that will be a large part of people's sustain now. The problem is that the single biggest contributor to people's overall damage is being slashed by 3/4, which will be a significant dps loss across the board and actually affect those at the lower end more. This change does nothing to bridge the gap...if anything the gap will get worse.

But please, continue with your disingenuous finger-pointing.

liningtonsweldingb16_ESO

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

1) Light atk weaving, bash weaving, animation cancelling with dodge, bar swap, block TAKES ONLY HALF AN HOUR PRACTISE and even people from australia or other places with high ping can perform, if you have played video games for at least ONE YEAR in your life (not even......).
It adds ZERO skill to ESO combat

2) All the dps loss from the proposed changes:
a) affect all the players so EVERYBODY WILL LOSE and you won't be left behind unfairly
b) does not make content impossible to clear
c) IF the content became impossible, testing would show it and the Devs could reduce the HP of bosses and mobs

3) In every other major mmorpg (please dont mention ffxiv as an mmorpg..... it's the same as eso, a single player story questline) normal atks have functions. ESO is the only game in which "veteran" players find the simple task of left clicking before every GlobalCoolDown to add a bit of extra dps an AWESOME COMBAT FEATURE. What a joke. What a lazy way of showing your skill.
Fav example 1*, fav example 2**

4) The only thing you should be doing instead of saying "if you dont keep the same boring dps combat as it is I am leaving" you should figure out which abilities are impacted from this change and list them so that the devs should make changes to them, example Molten Armaments.

5) And finally your only real worry should be that as with any changes Zos does, you should be afraid that the performance will worsen, but that isn't a logical argument when discussing combatt- solely combat- in which the performance factor should be considered as functional. My question for one is: aren't those resource recovery calculations and the requirement of 3 Light atks (which I love as a concept) going to tax the server?

*Tera Online, normal atks would refill MP plus interrupt certain jumping, dashing, charged atks, leading to your opponent getting stunned or thrown to the ground. And yet "eso veterans" claim that light atk weaving adds SKILLs to eso combat. What a joke of a claim.......... I keep telling you there isnt skill in eso combat as it is. Only meta builds for small scale and AoE zerg fest of people with a certain build for the purposes of one button: spamming heal, spamming damage, spamming CC and buffs/debuffs around Crown

** Line][Age. A real mmorpg of open world pvp, map domination, and real worth of gear which helped your clear content and be competitive, not fight for you passively (proc sets)
normal atks there were part of your combat, your abilities with cooldowns needed to be used accordingly to the right enemy (does he hold a shield? does he wear robe but deal massive dmg? is he a rogue and with run away in a split of a second, or interrupt my ability by some trick?) No I will lure him into a different dance with a couple of normal atks since I can lightsteal or deal double crit dmg and then use my abilities smartly.



Let devs go a head for once with a truly meaningful change. All those veterans that claim that their skills will be lowered should l2p and adapt as they have said.
Your skill was nothing but meta build, which was a handful, totally against the play as you want spirit (I dont mean mage with bow, I mean truly developing combat style based on class and weapon selection).

Your skill was building a char (which EVERYONE COULD COPY AND USE EFFECTIVELLY WITHIN MINUTES) that TURTLES and changes to BURST as easily as possible.
Same defensive rotation whether you fight a brawler, rogue, nuker mage, tank, same atking rotation. Same rotation whether it was 1 enemy, same rotation whether it was 5 with a bit of LS running around....


I welcome the changes provided that they wont affect server performance (little hope zos... honestly...)
The next nice change would be to remove dmg from Max Magika and Max Stamina, remove spell/weapon crit and make it a CRITICAL CHANCE stat. Same with penetration. Let us build around real ability selection and not around trying to max out our DMG power.
And then I hope that you will revert those changes to class defining abilities. StamDK lost wings, without any discussion. StamDK could not spam wings due to limited magika availability, yet there were many players using them instead of playing the same old SnB/2h BS 7th Fury, the most OP stamDK build which... didn;t use wings.
Only magDK could shut down ranged players that werent smart enough to move away from a target that stands it's ground, or wear down the wings. Simple solution.... add fatigue cost. But no.. you just removed them completelly.

Hopefully real testers will give logical answers from within the PTS game. I cant wait for them to go ahead

People like you have completely ruined this game for people like me..

ketsparrowhawk

Rejoice about the death of AC if you want.. but it isn't going anywhere.

If this change goes live, LA weaving will be just as essential as ever. If you want the sustain required to do big boy DPS, you will have to LA weave.

luen79rwb17_ESO

TheFM wrote: »

luen79rwb17_ESO wrote: »

People that are angry are mostly those who have spent hours in front of a dummy, alienating themselves to a robotic state where you uncounciosly press certain mix of keyboard buttons and clicks and call it "rotation" and say that is "skill" on a... RPG!!! Yes, ESO is an RPG and guess what? There's nothing coming from character progression in all of this.

Oh and btw i've done it too, I have spent myself hours in front of dummies and once you get the hang of it and achieve your 75k, 80k+ DPS.. It actually feels unrewarding, at least to me.

Or we practiced on live targets on cyrodiil because we realize that people who practice should always be better than those that do not. Like everything in life.

And I'm not against that. As I said I have spent hours in front of dummies aswell. My issue and concern is about "what" we are practicing.

katorga

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

Rejoice about the death of AC if you want.. but it isn't going anywhere.

If this change goes live, LA weaving will be just as essential as ever. If you want the sustain required to do big boy DPS, you will have to LA weave.

That in a nutshell. It is going to be even harder. I am a poor canceller and weaver, now my sustain will be dependent on it?

PVP, heavy attacks are going to be monstrous. The complaining will be epic.

Hanokihs

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

Rejoice about the death of AC if you want.. but it isn't going anywhere.

If this change goes live, LA weaving will be just as essential as ever. If you want the sustain required to do big boy DPS, you will have to LA weave.

Emphasis mine, because YES, someone gets it. Like... It's a swap, not a deletion. And I'm pretty sure anyone who was around for Orsinium/Wrothgar (or even later) remembers when Light Attacks didn't carry all the damage. It seemed like nobody cared one way or another about the change in the first place, so I really don't get the pushback on them reverting to what's basically a previous iteration of this system.

LadyNalcarya

You want an honest answer? A lot of people who are trying to advocate for unpopular changes seem to be doing so mostly out of spite without trying to analyze how it's gonna affect the game in a long run.

Heresyall

Another ball group buff since pugs won't be able to kill with light attacks anymore ( you can los heavy attacks since this patch )
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXX0G6N424k&t=110s

Siohwenoeht

Hanokihs wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

Rejoice about the death of AC if you want.. but it isn't going anywhere.

If this change goes live, LA weaving will be just as essential as ever. If you want the sustain required to do big boy DPS, you will have to LA weave.

Emphasis mine, because YES, someone gets it. Like... It's a swap, not a deletion. And I'm pretty sure anyone who was around for Orsinium/Wrothgar (or even later) remembers when Light Attacks didn't carry all the damage. It seemed like nobody cared one way or another about the change in the first place, so I really don't get the pushback on them reverting to what's basically a previous iteration of this system.

Mechanically it may be a throw back, but when taken with all the changes since Morrowind it's too radical and gameplay will be totally different from Orsinium era.

The biggest problem I have is the continued, forced changes that require complete character and combat style reworks happening multiple times per year. There are many people becoming fatigued for what amounts to lip service balance.

Yes, those that are the top end will still be the top end if this goes through, if they stay, because we CAN adjust and "l2p". Many will just move along to other titles and those that struggle now or simply don't want to learn the combat mechanics will still complain.

Fur_like_snow

Imagine making 250 changes a patch and still wonder why the game has so many unresolved bug issues. Simply put they do to much every patch and things don’t work(to be expected) but before that is solved it’s onto the next chapter dlc w/e. I’m not adverse to change but trying to reinvent combat every cycle with 200 other changes being released on the same day might be more workload than the current team can weather. It’s part of the reason PTS is outsourced to the community.

TheFM

luen79rwb17_ESO wrote: »

TheFM wrote: »

luen79rwb17_ESO wrote: »

People that are angry are mostly those who have spent hours in front of a dummy, alienating themselves to a robotic state where you uncounciosly press certain mix of keyboard buttons and clicks and call it "rotation" and say that is "skill" on a... RPG!!! Yes, ESO is an RPG and guess what? There's nothing coming from character progression in all of this.

Oh and btw i've done it too, I have spent myself hours in front of dummies and once you get the hang of it and achieve your 75k, 80k+ DPS.. It actually feels unrewarding, at least to me.

Or we practiced on live targets on cyrodiil because we realize that people who practice should always be better than those that do not. Like everything in life.

And I'm not against that. As I said I have spent hours in front of dummies aswell. My issue and concern is about "what" we are practicing.

If the slightly buffed heavies, and made it so LA restored resources, no one would be up in arms about the change. What we are pissed about is the EIGHTY PERCENT nerf to light attacks, which is just absurd. They did the same thing with dots, and then they realised it was a stupid decision, back peddled, and still were incapable of reverting to pre nerf state, completely neutering dots across the board. This will obliterate our fast paced playstyle and force people to play heavy attack playstyles, which are BORING AF.

TheFM

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

You want an honest answer? A lot of people who are trying to advocate for unpopular changes seem to be doing so mostly out of spite without trying to analyze how it's gonna affect the game in a long run.

Exactly this. They are mad that they cant keep up since they refuse to put in the time and effort to develop muscle memory for la weaving. For sithis sake it eve nsays in loading screens quite often HOW to weave.

Coppes

TheFM wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

You want an honest answer? A lot of people who are trying to advocate for unpopular changes seem to be doing so mostly out of spite without trying to analyze how it's gonna affect the game in a long run.

Exactly this. They are mad that they cant keep up since they refuse to put in the time and effort to develop muscle memory for la weaving. For sithis sake it eve nsays in loading screens quite often HOW to weave.

Eh that reason is kinda folly. I play frequently and long, and I’ve only ever seen the tip like 3-4 times.

A ‘major gameplay’ mechanic that’s tied to literally everything endgame shouldn’t be noticed by a tip on a loading screen.

TheFM

Coppes wrote: »

TheFM wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

You want an honest answer? A lot of people who are trying to advocate for unpopular changes seem to be doing so mostly out of spite without trying to analyze how it's gonna affect the game in a long run.

Exactly this. They are mad that they cant keep up since they refuse to put in the time and effort to develop muscle memory for la weaving. For sithis sake it eve nsays in loading screens quite often HOW to weave.

Eh that reason is kinda folly. I play frequently and long, and I’ve only ever seen the tip like 3-4 times.

A ‘major gameplay’ mechanic that’s tied to literally everything endgame shouldn’t be noticed by a tip on a loading screen.

Sure, they could do a MUCH better job making the in game tutorial and instruction manual visible and accessible. That I can agree with. NOT TO MENTION they need to start updating the ability advisor because half of the suggestions dont make sense anymore since their nerf buff rollercoaster yoyoness

Gundug

Do people actually get light attack kills in Cyrodiil? I have never even seen a light attack on any of my recaps, but stacks of skills from various players, indicating to me that they don’t even attempt to light weave.

forztr2

if you're complaining about the loss of damage from light attacks than you're not as good as you think you are.

weaving will now give sustain

so you need less sustain in your build

so you can stack more damage

yes it'll still be a dps loss but not as big as you think

game will still require the same amount of skill to perform at the highest level

power creep had made dps too high as it was. This change clips the top end damage and boosts the low parses a little.

If you think it's so bad and plan too rage quit, can I have your stuff please, pretty please, pretty please with a cherry on top.

Toc de Malsvi

darthgummibear_ESO wrote: »

Light attack weaving isn't actually going away as that will be a large part of people's sustain now. The problem is that the single biggest contributor to people's overall damage is being slashed by 3/4, which will be a significant dps loss across the board and actually affect those at the lower end more. This change does nothing to bridge the gap...if anything the gap will get worse.

But please, continue with your disingenuous finger-pointing.

No, that would actually be quite the opposite.

If you light attack weaved perfectly before and got say 20% of your dps from light attacks, then you lose 15% of your dps.

If you missed 50% of your light attacks before and only got 10% of your dps from light attacks. You lose 7.5% of your dps.

This change would hurt the top end the most. However, the top end will adjust to it the easiest as always.

Sanguinor2

forztr2 wrote: »

if you're complaining about the loss of damage from light attacks than you're not as good as you think you are.

weaving will now give sustain

so you need less sustain in your build

so you can stack more damage

yes it'll still be a dps loss but not as big as you think

game will still require the same amount of skill to perform at the highest level

power creep had made dps too high as it was. This change clips the top end damage and boosts the low parses a little.

If you think it's so bad and plan too rage quit, can I have your stuff please, pretty please, pretty please with a cherry on top.

If you build for Sustain as a dd in endgame PvE then you are not as good as you think you are.

Runefang

forztr2 wrote: »

if you're complaining about the loss of damage from light attacks than you're not as good as you think you are.

weaving will now give sustain

so you need less sustain in your build

so you can stack more damage

yes it'll still be a dps loss but not as big as you think

game will still require the same amount of skill to perform at the highest level

power creep had made dps too high as it was. This change clips the top end damage and boosts the low parses a little.

If you think it's so bad and plan too rage quit, can I have your stuff please, pretty please, pretty please with a cherry on top.

In PvE you really can't stack more damage than you already, so its a net 15-20% dps reduction. For stamina its probably not so bad because if light attacks provide sustain you can bash more. That means the APM went up, not down.

Toc de Malsvi

Runefang wrote: »

forztr2 wrote: »

if you're complaining about the loss of damage from light attacks than you're not as good as you think you are.

weaving will now give sustain

so you need less sustain in your build

so you can stack more damage

yes it'll still be a dps loss but not as big as you think

game will still require the same amount of skill to perform at the highest level

power creep had made dps too high as it was. This change clips the top end damage and boosts the low parses a little.

If you think it's so bad and plan too rage quit, can I have your stuff please, pretty please, pretty please with a cherry on top.

In PvE you really can't stack more damage than you already, so its a net 15-20% dps reduction. For stamina its probably not so bad because if light attacks provide sustain you can bash more. That means the APM went up, not down.

Well they will clearly have to adjust bash if they want to keep their stated goals.