Revert block changes, they have added nothing to ESO
-
Thevampirenight✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Thevampirenight wrote: »TheRealCherokeee3 wrote: »Even IF lag gets reduced to near nonexistence, and DC's become a rarity, and stable game play (connection wise) are all achieved that STILL wont retain alot of endgame players. Why? again, as many have said over and over, block cancel was the lynch pin in most arguments over combat both in an endgame PvP and PvE setting. Having our combat slowed to such an extent that we are mashing buttons between each skill, is a deal breaker for most. This was again, an intended change via animations and block cancel changes...not lag based. We've all endured the lag issues and mostly overcame them via block cancel. We also mostly overcame zergs and other growing metas via doing chain skill combos and reactive game play.
There's always these two arguments in these threads: server/connection performance-and user input performance via ani cancel. And 9 times out of 10 when I have to choose, I'll choose ani cancel over server performance. Why? because I have no control over server issues. I do however, have control over my character with ani cancel. So I agree with OP in reverting changes. Keep the changes to optimization, server performance, packet loss, and reducing file size on our systems be they console or PC thats all great. Dont revert those. Simply revert block changes. Give us our reactive game play back. Those who dislike ani cancel can continue not utilizing it and running in ball groups ect, and those who do like it can choose to enjoy mastering a skill in an otherwise static atmosphere (static in that theres only so far one can go via sets and champion points until you hit a ceiling).
Still there would be a flux of new players over time that would not know the old block and would be just fine with the new one. So Its not really a deal breaker. I just think people don't like adjusting to change and I don't blame them. However sometimes change is good even if we don't think it is. Better with the block changes plus a fully playable game that has very little issues then a game with out the block changes and unplayable.
The game is unplayable with the block changes and it alienates the current playerbase. Can you point out where the benefits are in these changes?
All it does is basically prioritize server communication before the animation appears from what I understand. Basically the other way around had issues where block didn't work at all because it failed to communicate with the server. Gilliam explains this. So even if you block canceled you were not actually blocking in some cases and you could die in different situations. he also explained this could cause other issues. That is why they made the changes. So it was impacting server performance to the point they had to rewrite it. I mean with a necro you can still animation cancel rather easily with block. However its just you are blocking before you are animating or showing the block. You still get the block even if it does not appear that you are blocking that is how it was explained.
So even if block animation fails to appear or is delayed your still blocking as that gets prioritized. So they made it so there is better communication between actions from the client and response from the server. From what I understand. So it streamlines block, so server is more performative and also makes it so you are actually blocking when you actually need block even if you don't appear to be blocking from the client side. It fixes health desyncs that can cause issues like the death incap while alive bug and you appearing moving around as a corpse running around on the ground bug. Both caused by the old block system and how it worked.
Edited by Thevampirenight on March 18, 2020 4:22AMPC NA
Please add Fangs to Vampires.1 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Thevampirenight wrote: »Thevampirenight wrote: »TheRealCherokeee3 wrote: »Even IF lag gets reduced to near nonexistence, and DC's become a rarity, and stable game play (connection wise) are all achieved that STILL wont retain alot of endgame players. Why? again, as many have said over and over, block cancel was the lynch pin in most arguments over combat both in an endgame PvP and PvE setting. Having our combat slowed to such an extent that we are mashing buttons between each skill, is a deal breaker for most. This was again, an intended change via animations and block cancel changes...not lag based. We've all endured the lag issues and mostly overcame them via block cancel. We also mostly overcame zergs and other growing metas via doing chain skill combos and reactive game play.
There's always these two arguments in these threads: server/connection performance-and user input performance via ani cancel. And 9 times out of 10 when I have to choose, I'll choose ani cancel over server performance. Why? because I have no control over server issues. I do however, have control over my character with ani cancel. So I agree with OP in reverting changes. Keep the changes to optimization, server performance, packet loss, and reducing file size on our systems be they console or PC thats all great. Dont revert those. Simply revert block changes. Give us our reactive game play back. Those who dislike ani cancel can continue not utilizing it and running in ball groups ect, and those who do like it can choose to enjoy mastering a skill in an otherwise static atmosphere (static in that theres only so far one can go via sets and champion points until you hit a ceiling).
Still there would be a flux of new players over time that would not know the old block and would be just fine with the new one. So Its not really a deal breaker. I just think people don't like adjusting to change and I don't blame them. However sometimes change is good even if we don't think it is. Better with the block changes plus a fully playable game that has very little issues then a game with out the block changes and unplayable.
The game is unplayable with the block changes and it alienates the current playerbase. Can you point out where the benefits are in these changes?
All it does is basically prioritize server communication before the animation appears from what I understand. Basically the other way around had issues where block didn't work at all because it failed to communicate with the server. Gilliam explains this. So even if you block canceled you were not actually blocking in some cases and you could die in different situations. he also explained this could cause other issues. That is why they made the changes. So it was impacting server performance to the point they had to rewrite it. I mean with a necro you can still animation cancel rather easily with block. However its just you are blocking before you are animating or showing the block. You still get the block even if it does not appear that you are blocking that is how it was explained.
So even if block animation fails to appear or is delayed your still blocking as that gets prioritized. So they made it so there is better communication between actions from the client and response from the server. From what I understand. So it streamlines block, so server is more performative and also makes it so you are actually blocking when you actually need block even if you don't appear to be blocking from the client side. It fixes health desyncs that can cause issues like the death incap while alive bug and you appearing moving around as a corpse running around on the ground bug. Both caused by the old block system and how it worked.
There is one small problem about all this... just a year ago, in February 2019 game was running fine, both PVE and PVP, with exception of some problems in peak hours Cyro. And all of that was with old block, without cast times, without weird changes to all abilities. IF this block changes have made game performance good, but with limited block cancel - it would be worth discussing if they are good or bad (for majority of players). But performance didn't become better for that majority...5 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Thogard provided perfect explanation in video. Despite what ZOS said that "nothing changed", it changed. Block cancelling execute was way to make it actual execute which hits instantly. I have no idea how it worked, but it worked. I.e if you block cancel executioner or two, people die. If you simply spam it... they manage to dodge/break distance whatever and survive on 10% HP.2 -
relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »Thevampirenight wrote: »Thevampirenight wrote: »TheRealCherokeee3 wrote: »Even IF lag gets reduced to near nonexistence, and DC's become a rarity, and stable game play (connection wise) are all achieved that STILL wont retain alot of endgame players. Why? again, as many have said over and over, block cancel was the lynch pin in most arguments over combat both in an endgame PvP and PvE setting. Having our combat slowed to such an extent that we are mashing buttons between each skill, is a deal breaker for most. This was again, an intended change via animations and block cancel changes...not lag based. We've all endured the lag issues and mostly overcame them via block cancel. We also mostly overcame zergs and other growing metas via doing chain skill combos and reactive game play.
There's always these two arguments in these threads: server/connection performance-and user input performance via ani cancel. And 9 times out of 10 when I have to choose, I'll choose ani cancel over server performance. Why? because I have no control over server issues. I do however, have control over my character with ani cancel. So I agree with OP in reverting changes. Keep the changes to optimization, server performance, packet loss, and reducing file size on our systems be they console or PC thats all great. Dont revert those. Simply revert block changes. Give us our reactive game play back. Those who dislike ani cancel can continue not utilizing it and running in ball groups ect, and those who do like it can choose to enjoy mastering a skill in an otherwise static atmosphere (static in that theres only so far one can go via sets and champion points until you hit a ceiling).
Still there would be a flux of new players over time that would not know the old block and would be just fine with the new one. So Its not really a deal breaker. I just think people don't like adjusting to change and I don't blame them. However sometimes change is good even if we don't think it is. Better with the block changes plus a fully playable game that has very little issues then a game with out the block changes and unplayable.
The game is unplayable with the block changes and it alienates the current playerbase. Can you point out where the benefits are in these changes?
All it does is basically prioritize server communication before the animation appears from what I understand. Basically the other way around had issues where block didn't work at all because it failed to communicate with the server. Gilliam explains this. So even if you block canceled you were not actually blocking in some cases and you could die in different situations. he also explained this could cause other issues. That is why they made the changes. So it was impacting server performance to the point they had to rewrite it. I mean with a necro you can still animation cancel rather easily with block. However its just you are blocking before you are animating or showing the block. You still get the block even if it does not appear that you are blocking that is how it was explained.
So even if block animation fails to appear or is delayed your still blocking as that gets prioritized. So they made it so there is better communication between actions from the client and response from the server. From what I understand. So it streamlines block, so server is more performative and also makes it so you are actually blocking when you actually need block even if you don't appear to be blocking from the client side. It fixes health desyncs that can cause issues like the death incap while alive bug and you appearing moving around as a corpse running around on the ground bug. Both caused by the old block system and how it worked.
There is one small problem about all this... just a year ago, in February 2019 game was running fine, both PVE and PVP, with exception of some problems in peak hours Cyro. And all of that was with old block, without cast times, without weird changes to all abilities. IF this block changes have made game performance good, but with limited block cancel - it would be worth discussing if they are good or bad (for majority of players). But performance didn't become better for that majority...
^^^ this ^^^ It is the point I was making with this thread and echoed by this guy.
If the block changes had improved the game in any aspect we could debate whether it was worth it.
Given that it has only hindered combat and player responsiveness it is futile to argue its merit.
The performance improvements we have seen(which i personally haven't) are more likely from the reduced client size than the block changes.2 -
relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »Thogard provided perfect explanation in video. Despite what ZOS said that "nothing changed", it changed. Block cancelling execute was way to make it actual execute which hits instantly. I have no idea how it worked, but it worked. I.e if you block cancel executioner or two, people die. If you simply spam it... they manage to dodge/break distance whatever and survive on 10% HP.
Yeah I've seen that video popping up all over the place.
It is really well put together and explains a lot... Developers should watch it!
@ZOS_GinaBruno
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIzNq2exFHs 3 -
Kiyakotari✭✭✭✭✭They have added something: for your tank to glitch in PvE and you die and/or get group wiped because you couldn't use a skill and/or block for more than two seconds thanks to an artificial barrier added in the most recent two patches. Then your crush gets angry at you and you at them, only for hours later the both of you cool down and realize the game was just being crappy and you should apologize to each other awkwardly.
Is that not an added fun element? It is, right? You know it is, come on!
Oh, and I thought it was just me, BEING ME!0 -
mague✭✭✭✭✭Centralizing is a lot more then just lowering ceiling or performance.
To invest man hours into centralization might allow you to
- bring the game to low TDP consoles like Switch
- bring the game to people with a lower power supply. Thats a passive energy transfer to distant regions. The servers may be located near clean energy like water plants or in a region with plenty of energy- Certain regions have to much energy durng the day from solar already.
- might save a lot of energy. Only 250000 players on an average gaming PC burn 87.5 MWatts an hour. There is
reason to belief that server side calculations are way more efficient.
- With new stategies like VNC like video drivers the centralized MMOs will be able to beat attempts like Stadia because they also save energy.
I think the future will be more like low TDP client build into TV sets or low TDP consoles like Switch then 500+W gamning PC.1 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Centralizing is a lot more then just lowering ceiling or performance.
To invest man hours into centralization might allow you to
- bring the game to low TDP consoles like Switch
- bring the game to people with a lower power supply. Thats a passive energy transfer to distant regions. The servers may be located near clean energy like water plants or in a region with plenty of energy- Certain regions have to much energy durng the day from solar already.
- might save a lot of energy. Only 250000 players on an average gaming PC burn 87.5 MWatts an hour. There is
reason to belief that server side calculations are way more efficient.
- With new stategies like VNC like video drivers the centralized MMOs will be able to beat attempts like Stadia because they also save energy.
I think the future will be more like low TDP client build into TV sets or low TDP consoles like Switch then 500+W gamning PC.
No matter if you are joking or not, ZOS should hire you
perfect explanation, worth adding to patch notes.
But it has one flaw - if game is unplayable and nobody will play it, then people will play other, non-efficient games which load all your PC cores and GPU to the max and thus all efforts in reducing power consumption will be in vain.3 -
relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Thought I'd add this here:
The average players have dropped by nearly 1000 on steam charts.
This only illustrates a small portion of the player base, but is a pretty good indicator of how the player base feels at the moment.
https://steamcharts.com/app/306130
Edit: If you look at the last 2 years you'll see this isn't a normal trend and we have seen growth usually this time of year.
I would just be happy if someone would actually release a statement acknowledging this officially.
Instead they just leave @ZOS_GinaBruno to put out the fires.
It isn't fair On Gina and her team and we all deserve an official action plan.Edited by relentless_turnip on March 18, 2020 9:39AM3 -
Moonsorrow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭They have added something: for your tank to glitch in PvE and you die and/or get group wiped because you couldn't use a skill and/or block for more than two seconds thanks to an artificial barrier added in the most recent two patches. Then your crush gets angry at you and you at them, only for hours later the both of you cool down and realize the game was just being crappy and you should apologize to each other awkwardly.
Is that not an added fun element? It is, right? You know it is, come on!
I laughed way too hard for this. So true and so sad at the same time.. about the possible crush, getting mad at Cyrodiil, and after a bit realizing it was just due to the game being a bad/poor game since Update 25 when watching yourself being tbagged by enemy zerg after 15 minutes of swarming & chasing you in middle of nowhere.
And while this mondays "fix" did fix some things.. i still daily wish the game would be technically (code, combat, mechanisms) to Summerset launch atleast. Well, ditch the first iteration of Sloads obviously. But yeah, game and pvp was PLAYABLE then and pvp community was way more healthy and i feel same about PVE community. When the AUDIT madness and endless nerfs started, also the game went more and more technically bad all the time what comes to performance. I miss the times of 2-3 years ago. While it was not perfect, it was SO much more better working game in all aspects.
Edited by Moonsorrow on March 18, 2020 9:46AM4 -
Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Thevampirenight wrote: »Thevampirenight wrote: »TheRealCherokeee3 wrote: »Even IF lag gets reduced to near nonexistence, and DC's become a rarity, and stable game play (connection wise) are all achieved that STILL wont retain alot of endgame players. Why? again, as many have said over and over, block cancel was the lynch pin in most arguments over combat both in an endgame PvP and PvE setting. Having our combat slowed to such an extent that we are mashing buttons between each skill, is a deal breaker for most. This was again, an intended change via animations and block cancel changes...not lag based. We've all endured the lag issues and mostly overcame them via block cancel. We also mostly overcame zergs and other growing metas via doing chain skill combos and reactive game play.
There's always these two arguments in these threads: server/connection performance-and user input performance via ani cancel. And 9 times out of 10 when I have to choose, I'll choose ani cancel over server performance. Why? because I have no control over server issues. I do however, have control over my character with ani cancel. So I agree with OP in reverting changes. Keep the changes to optimization, server performance, packet loss, and reducing file size on our systems be they console or PC thats all great. Dont revert those. Simply revert block changes. Give us our reactive game play back. Those who dislike ani cancel can continue not utilizing it and running in ball groups ect, and those who do like it can choose to enjoy mastering a skill in an otherwise static atmosphere (static in that theres only so far one can go via sets and champion points until you hit a ceiling).
Still there would be a flux of new players over time that would not know the old block and would be just fine with the new one. So Its not really a deal breaker. I just think people don't like adjusting to change and I don't blame them. However sometimes change is good even if we don't think it is. Better with the block changes plus a fully playable game that has very little issues then a game with out the block changes and unplayable.
The game is unplayable with the block changes and it alienates the current playerbase. Can you point out where the benefits are in these changes?
All it does is basically prioritize server communication before the animation appears from what I understand. Basically the other way around had issues where block didn't work at all because it failed to communicate with the server. Gilliam explains this. So even if you block canceled you were not actually blocking in some cases and you could die in different situations. he also explained this could cause other issues. That is why they made the changes. So it was impacting server performance to the point they had to rewrite it. I mean with a necro you can still animation cancel rather easily with block. However its just you are blocking before you are animating or showing the block. You still get the block even if it does not appear that you are blocking that is how it was explained.
So even if block animation fails to appear or is delayed your still blocking as that gets prioritized. So they made it so there is better communication between actions from the client and response from the server. From what I understand. So it streamlines block, so server is more performative and also makes it so you are actually blocking when you actually need block even if you don't appear to be blocking from the client side. It fixes health desyncs that can cause issues like the death incap while alive bug and you appearing moving around as a corpse running around on the ground bug. Both caused by the old block system and how it worked.
That's a great explanation...if You have stable and decent ping and You're fignting NPC that is standing stil. If You're not then it's not that great explanation anymore.Edited by Juhasow on March 18, 2020 9:54AM3 -
relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Thevampirenight wrote: »Thevampirenight wrote: »TheRealCherokeee3 wrote: »Even IF lag gets reduced to near nonexistence, and DC's become a rarity, and stable game play (connection wise) are all achieved that STILL wont retain alot of endgame players. Why? again, as many have said over and over, block cancel was the lynch pin in most arguments over combat both in an endgame PvP and PvE setting. Having our combat slowed to such an extent that we are mashing buttons between each skill, is a deal breaker for most. This was again, an intended change via animations and block cancel changes...not lag based. We've all endured the lag issues and mostly overcame them via block cancel. We also mostly overcame zergs and other growing metas via doing chain skill combos and reactive game play.
There's always these two arguments in these threads: server/connection performance-and user input performance via ani cancel. And 9 times out of 10 when I have to choose, I'll choose ani cancel over server performance. Why? because I have no control over server issues. I do however, have control over my character with ani cancel. So I agree with OP in reverting changes. Keep the changes to optimization, server performance, packet loss, and reducing file size on our systems be they console or PC thats all great. Dont revert those. Simply revert block changes. Give us our reactive game play back. Those who dislike ani cancel can continue not utilizing it and running in ball groups ect, and those who do like it can choose to enjoy mastering a skill in an otherwise static atmosphere (static in that theres only so far one can go via sets and champion points until you hit a ceiling).
Still there would be a flux of new players over time that would not know the old block and would be just fine with the new one. So Its not really a deal breaker. I just think people don't like adjusting to change and I don't blame them. However sometimes change is good even if we don't think it is. Better with the block changes plus a fully playable game that has very little issues then a game with out the block changes and unplayable.
The game is unplayable with the block changes and it alienates the current playerbase. Can you point out where the benefits are in these changes?
All it does is basically prioritize server communication before the animation appears from what I understand. Basically the other way around had issues where block didn't work at all because it failed to communicate with the server. Gilliam explains this. So even if you block canceled you were not actually blocking in some cases and you could die in different situations. he also explained this could cause other issues. That is why they made the changes. So it was impacting server performance to the point they had to rewrite it. I mean with a necro you can still animation cancel rather easily with block. However its just you are blocking before you are animating or showing the block. You still get the block even if it does not appear that you are blocking that is how it was explained.
So even if block animation fails to appear or is delayed your still blocking as that gets prioritized. So they made it so there is better communication between actions from the client and response from the server. From what I understand. So it streamlines block, so server is more performative and also makes it so you are actually blocking when you actually need block even if you don't appear to be blocking from the client side. It fixes health desyncs that can cause issues like the death incap while alive bug and you appearing moving around as a corpse running around on the ground bug. Both caused by the old block system and how it worked.
That's a great explanation...if You have stable and decent ping and You're fignting NPC that is standing stil. If You're not then it's not that great explanation anymore.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIzNq2exFHs
This is a good video for the current state of things!4 -
Jaraal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭relentless_turnip wrote: »I would just be happy if someone would actually release a statement acknowledging this officially.
Instead they just leave @ZOS_GinaBruno to put out the fires.
It isn't fair On Gina and her team and we all deserve an official action plan.
They've already released an action plan. Problem is, the action completed so far has only worsened performance overall.
Edited by Jaraal on March 18, 2020 11:43AM0 -
relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭relentless_turnip wrote: »I would just be happy if someone would actually release a statement acknowledging this officially.
Instead they just leave @ZOS_GinaBruno to put out the fires.
It isn't fair On Gina and her team and we all deserve an official action plan.
They've already released an action plan. Problem is, the action completed so far has only worsened performance overall.
I meant an action plan for the problems they have created
Inevitably this will lead to an action plan to fix the previous action plan created for the original action plan!5 -
LuxLunae✭✭✭✭✭They have added something: for your tank to glitch in PvE and you die and/or get group wiped because you couldn't use a skill and/or block for more than two seconds thanks to an artificial barrier added in the most recent two patches. Then your crush gets angry at you and you at them, only for hours later the both of you cool down and realize the game was just being crappy and you should apologize to each other awkwardly.
Is that not an added fun element? It is, right? You know it is, come on!
You the one who wanted to be a knight in shining armor... when u couldn't even tank toilet paper...2 -
WreckfulAbandon✭✭✭✭✭
✭The "audits" and "standardization passes" have mostly killed my enthusiasm for the game.
"Killing it" amiritePC NA
All my comments are regarding PvP3 -
Thevampirenight wrote: »TheRealCherokeee3 wrote: »Even IF lag gets reduced to near nonexistence, and DC's become a rarity, and stable game play (connection wise) are all achieved that STILL wont retain alot of endgame players. Why? again, as many have said over and over, block cancel was the lynch pin in most arguments over combat both in an endgame PvP and PvE setting. Having our combat slowed to such an extent that we are mashing buttons between each skill, is a deal breaker for most. This was again, an intended change via animations and block cancel changes...not lag based. We've all endured the lag issues and mostly overcame them via block cancel. We also mostly overcame zergs and other growing metas via doing chain skill combos and reactive game play.
There's always these two arguments in these threads: server/connection performance-and user input performance via ani cancel. And 9 times out of 10 when I have to choose, I'll choose ani cancel over server performance. Why? because I have no control over server issues. I do however, have control over my character with ani cancel. So I agree with OP in reverting changes. Keep the changes to optimization, server performance, packet loss, and reducing file size on our systems be they console or PC thats all great. Dont revert those. Simply revert block changes. Give us our reactive game play back. Those who dislike ani cancel can continue not utilizing it and running in ball groups ect, and those who do like it can choose to enjoy mastering a skill in an otherwise static atmosphere (static in that theres only so far one can go via sets and champion points until you hit a ceiling).
Still there would be a flux of new players over time that would not know the old block and would be just fine with the new one. So Its not really a deal breaker. I just think people don't like adjusting to change and I don't blame them. However sometimes change is good even if we don't think it is. Better with the block changes plus a fully playable game that has very little issues then a game with out the block changes and unplayable.
Well I'll say this: if this is to be the case...then it would also behoove them to adjust 2 particular hardmode trials to compensate for this. Tanks especially would appreciate an adjustment. The thing is...ramping content has been continually made in parallel to ani canceling. If they adjust content to better match the now non skill reactive combat then it is what it is. As far as a deal breaker, that is of coarse in reference to people who preferred the old combat style. And yes change can often be good! but...it can also as easily be bad. It especially can be bad in situations where you tend to further break an already fragile entity. "Better with the block changes plus a fully playable game that has very little issues then a game with out the block changes and unplayable". In sentiment I of coarse agree with you. but thats an overstatement I think isn't it? The irony was it was more playable post update and now it is nearly literally unplayable at times or peak hours PLUS no block cancel ability to at least somewhat adjust for the issues. Theres what ZOS says, promises, and illustrates with programming language...and then theres what actually occurs and what gamers experience. And so far? neither line up even close to pre update. Anyway...I guess at this point there's no point in beating a dead horse we've turned to mush now 1 -
MartiniDaniels wrote: »Thevampirenight wrote: »Thevampirenight wrote: »TheRealCherokeee3 wrote: »Even IF lag gets reduced to near nonexistence, and DC's become a rarity, and stable game play (connection wise) are all achieved that STILL wont retain alot of endgame players. Why? again, as many have said over and over, block cancel was the lynch pin in most arguments over combat both in an endgame PvP and PvE setting. Having our combat slowed to such an extent that we are mashing buttons between each skill, is a deal breaker for most. This was again, an intended change via animations and block cancel changes...not lag based. We've all endured the lag issues and mostly overcame them via block cancel. We also mostly overcame zergs and other growing metas via doing chain skill combos and reactive game play.
There's always these two arguments in these threads: server/connection performance-and user input performance via ani cancel. And 9 times out of 10 when I have to choose, I'll choose ani cancel over server performance. Why? because I have no control over server issues. I do however, have control over my character with ani cancel. So I agree with OP in reverting changes. Keep the changes to optimization, server performance, packet loss, and reducing file size on our systems be they console or PC thats all great. Dont revert those. Simply revert block changes. Give us our reactive game play back. Those who dislike ani cancel can continue not utilizing it and running in ball groups ect, and those who do like it can choose to enjoy mastering a skill in an otherwise static atmosphere (static in that theres only so far one can go via sets and champion points until you hit a ceiling).
Still there would be a flux of new players over time that would not know the old block and would be just fine with the new one. So Its not really a deal breaker. I just think people don't like adjusting to change and I don't blame them. However sometimes change is good even if we don't think it is. Better with the block changes plus a fully playable game that has very little issues then a game with out the block changes and unplayable.
The game is unplayable with the block changes and it alienates the current playerbase. Can you point out where the benefits are in these changes?
All it does is basically prioritize server communication before the animation appears from what I understand. Basically the other way around had issues where block didn't work at all because it failed to communicate with the server. Gilliam explains this. So even if you block canceled you were not actually blocking in some cases and you could die in different situations. he also explained this could cause other issues. That is why they made the changes. So it was impacting server performance to the point they had to rewrite it. I mean with a necro you can still animation cancel rather easily with block. However its just you are blocking before you are animating or showing the block. You still get the block even if it does not appear that you are blocking that is how it was explained.
So even if block animation fails to appear or is delayed your still blocking as that gets prioritized. So they made it so there is better communication between actions from the client and response from the server. From what I understand. So it streamlines block, so server is more performative and also makes it so you are actually blocking when you actually need block even if you don't appear to be blocking from the client side. It fixes health desyncs that can cause issues like the death incap while alive bug and you appearing moving around as a corpse running around on the ground bug. Both caused by the old block system and how it worked.
There is one small problem about all this... just a year ago, in February 2019 game was running fine, both PVE and PVP, with exception of some problems in peak hours Cyro. And all of that was with old block, without cast times, without weird changes to all abilities. IF this block changes have made game performance good, but with limited block cancel - it would be worth discussing if they are good or bad (for majority of players). But performance didn't become better for that majority...
Yep! like i've also said often, covering up a substantial change (they knew we didn't want for years and acknowledged) via verbose programming language doesnt change the result. And what's worse is having Gilliam post it: (hey he used to play so they community will accept his explanation). Had they outright said in the update notes "we've decided inspite of years long adverse communal opinion, to finally address animation cancel and "fix" this along with a general overall slow down in combat to better handle an ever growing population base and better appeal to newer and fresh players". I could then respect that and accept it. I wouldn't like it, but I'd better accept that outright honest direct approach rather than their usual vague half smile talk out of the side of their mouth ways.0 -
Asardes✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Got rekt by Ra Kotu 3 times in a row holding block. 50k+ hit, never lifted my finger off the RMB.Beta tester since February 2014, played ESO-TU October 2015 - August 2022, currently on an extended break
vMA (The Flawless Conqueror) | vVH (Spirit Slayer & of the Undying Song) | vDSA | vAA HM | vHRC HM | vSO HM | vMoL | vAS+1 | Emperor
PC-EU CP 3000+
41,000+ Achievement Points before High IsleMember of:
Pact Veteran Trade: Exemplary
Traders of the Covenant: God of Sales
Tamriels Emporium: God of Sales
Valinor Overflow: Trader
The Traveling Merchant: Silver
Characters:
Asardes | 50 Nord Dragonknight | EP AR 50 | Master Crafter: all traits & recipes, all styles released before High Isle
Alxaril Nelcarion | 50 High Elf Sorcerer | AD AR 20 |
Dro'Bear Three-paws | 50 Khajiit Nightblade | AD AR 20 |
Veronique Nicole | 50 Breton Templar | DC AR 20 |
Sabina Flavia Cosades | 50 Imperial Warden | EP AR 20 |
Ervesa Neloren | 50 Dark Elf Dragonknight | EP AR 20 |
Fendar Khodwin | 50 Redguard Sorcerer | DC AR 20 |
Surilanwe of Lillandril | 50 High Elf Nightblade | AD AR 20 |
Joleen the Swift | 50 Redguard Templar | DC AR 20 |
Draynor Telvanni | 50 Dark Elf Warden | EP AR 20 |
Claudius Tharn | 50 Necromancer | DC AR 20 |
Nazura-la the Bonedancer | 50 Necromancer | AD AR 20 |
Tharkul gro-Shug | 50 Orc Dragonknight | DC AR 4 |
Ushruka gra-Lhurgash | 50 Orc Sorcerer | AD AR 4 |
Cienwen ferch Llywelyn | 50 Breton Nightblade | DC AR 4 |
Plays-with-Sunray | 50 Argonian Templar | EP AR 4 |
Milariel | 50 Wood Elf Warden | AD AR 4 |
Scheei-Jul | 50 Necromancer | EP AR 4 |
PC-NA CP 1800+
30,000+ Achievement Points before High IsleMember of:
Savage Blade: Majestic Machette
Characters:
Asardes the Exile | 50 Nord Dragonknight | EP AR 30 |2 -
Moonsorrow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Got rekt by Ra Kotu 3 times in a row holding block. 50k+ hit, never lifted my finger off the RMB.
You have my sympathy, i`ve had same, sort of.. but at PVP. Died on situations inside 1 second, due to Block not working realiably still so was "zerged" to death while i usually can combine movement, LoS, tap Blocking and Dodges to escape the zerg and lure only few enemies with me far enough so then can deal with them (kill them).
So: "All i have are negative thoughts." - Joker
ZOS, your fix at monday did fix some things, and i am happy about it, some delay on skill input got better, not much crashing anymore at all. But, PC EU primetime is not good, both at PVE and PVP. Slideshow battles at Emp ring keeps, delays comes back (like mounting on your awesome Crown Store Radiant Apex mount takes 3 seconds to appear under you and ready for adventures), ping spikes between 200 - (the dreaded) 999 happen even at Alliance base gate in no combat while just "afking".
Trials, bar swaps are not working fast enough, and then they "double swap" back to where you started when it happens. Boss mechanics come delayed and/or invisible until too late. Tanks are nerve wrecks because of Block not being reliable, dps are angry because cannot do what normally can. Healers, well.. i guess they just get blamed for it all (joking) when everyone dies.
So, i hope you get things REALLY fixed. ZOS, we love this game - but patience after the last year of many painful changes (nerfs) and performance going down all the time instead of up.. patience, it is not at a good level right now. Friends are disappearing and giving up on the game. Just sad feelings. This is not bashing anyone, just hoping you get things sorted - and if it all feels just making things worse, consider a "rollback" to a game engine (Update) version that still worked on "okay" level by the majorities standards.
Oh, i guess i will have to put the "I HAVE SPOKEN" in the end. So you know i mean business. And to bring some dark humor on all of this.
And despite the criticism, i wish a good wednesday and rest of the week to all the players and to the ZOS Devs too, please help us players to have fun again - we will support you even if it takes some hard actions to bring the game back to really working status. You have my love and support - please show us your love back to the player base who been here for you for years.
Edited by Moonsorrow on March 18, 2020 4:35PM5 -
Jaraal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭WreckfulAbandon wrote: »The "audits" and "standardization passes" have mostly killed my enthusiasm for the game.
"Killing it" amirite
Fixing what ain't broke is a common recipe for disaster.
Go back two years and find me ONE quote from anyone who's ever played this game saying, 'Somebody needs to take stealth away from Bosmer! It's so overpowered and against the TES lore! Khajiit are the only true stealth race!'1 -
Moonsorrow wrote: »Got rekt by Ra Kotu 3 times in a row holding block. 50k+ hit, never lifted my finger off the RMB.
You have my sympathy, i`ve had same, sort of.. but at PVP. Died on situations inside 1 second, due to Block not working realiably still so was "zerged" to death while i usually can combine movement, LoS, tap Blocking and Dodges to escape the zerg and lure only few enemies with me far enough so then can deal with them (kill them).
So: "All i have are negative thoughts." - Joker
ZOS, your fix at monday did fix some things, and i am happy about it, some delay on skill input got better, not much crashing anymore at all. But, PC EU primetime is not good, both at PVE and PVP. Slideshow battles at Emp ring keeps, delays comes back (like mounting on your awesome Crown Store Radiant Apex mount takes 3 seconds to appear under you and ready for adventures), ping spikes between 200 - (the dreaded) 999 happen even at Alliance base gate in no combat while just "afking".
Trials, bar swaps are not working fast enough, and then they "double swap" back to where you started when it happens. Boss mechanics come delayed and/or invisible until too late. Tanks are nerve wrecks because of Block not being reliable, dps are angry because cannot do what normally can. Healers, well.. i guess they just get blamed for it all (joking) when everyone dies.
So, i hope you get things REALLY fixed. ZOS, we love this game - but patience after the last year of many painful changes (nerfs) and performance going down all the time instead of up.. patience, it is not at a good level right now. Friends are disappearing and giving up on the game. Just sad feelings. This is not bashing anyone, just hoping you get things sorted - and if it all feels just making things worse, consider a "rollback" to a game engine (Update) version that still worked on "okay" level by the majorities standards.
Oh, i guess i will have to put the "I HAVE SPOKEN" in the end. So you know i mean business. And to bring some dark humor on all of this.
And despite the criticism, i wish a good wednesday and rest of the week to all the players and to the ZOS Devs too, please help us players to have fun again - we will support you even if it takes some hard actions to bring the game back to really working status. You have my love and support - please show us your love back to the player base who been here for you for years.
Lovely. Thumbs up and my sentiments exactly.2 -
JumpmanLane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I agree with the Op. Further, I love playing ESO. I try playing other games. REALLY want to be playing ESO; so I log in. Play 10 minutes. Log out.
I really don’t get a sense of urgency from ZOS about the broken state of the game. Maybe they SHOULD’T feel like things are urgent. I unno; but I unsubbed. I’m seeking a refund for Greymoor. And truly, I wonder if there’s any reason to login just to log right back out. I mean my house was bugged one day and I had to exit it just to delete the daily reward lol.
I’m basically a disappointed customer. What is there to look forward to? The game is unplayable now. Who KNOWS what new mess Update 26 will bring. Then, there’s “fixing cp” lol.3 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Thevampirenight wrote: »Thevampirenight wrote: »TheRealCherokeee3 wrote: »Even IF lag gets reduced to near nonexistence, and DC's become a rarity, and stable game play (connection wise) are all achieved that STILL wont retain alot of endgame players. Why? again, as many have said over and over, block cancel was the lynch pin in most arguments over combat both in an endgame PvP and PvE setting. Having our combat slowed to such an extent that we are mashing buttons between each skill, is a deal breaker for most. This was again, an intended change via animations and block cancel changes...not lag based. We've all endured the lag issues and mostly overcame them via block cancel. We also mostly overcame zergs and other growing metas via doing chain skill combos and reactive game play.
There's always these two arguments in these threads: server/connection performance-and user input performance via ani cancel. And 9 times out of 10 when I have to choose, I'll choose ani cancel over server performance. Why? because I have no control over server issues. I do however, have control over my character with ani cancel. So I agree with OP in reverting changes. Keep the changes to optimization, server performance, packet loss, and reducing file size on our systems be they console or PC thats all great. Dont revert those. Simply revert block changes. Give us our reactive game play back. Those who dislike ani cancel can continue not utilizing it and running in ball groups ect, and those who do like it can choose to enjoy mastering a skill in an otherwise static atmosphere (static in that theres only so far one can go via sets and champion points until you hit a ceiling).
Still there would be a flux of new players over time that would not know the old block and would be just fine with the new one. So Its not really a deal breaker. I just think people don't like adjusting to change and I don't blame them. However sometimes change is good even if we don't think it is. Better with the block changes plus a fully playable game that has very little issues then a game with out the block changes and unplayable.
The game is unplayable with the block changes and it alienates the current playerbase. Can you point out where the benefits are in these changes?
All it does is basically prioritize server communication before the animation appears from what I understand. Basically the other way around had issues where block didn't work at all because it failed to communicate with the server. Gilliam explains this. So even if you block canceled you were not actually blocking in some cases and you could die in different situations. he also explained this could cause other issues. That is why they made the changes. So it was impacting server performance to the point they had to rewrite it. I mean with a necro you can still animation cancel rather easily with block. However its just you are blocking before you are animating or showing the block. You still get the block even if it does not appear that you are blocking that is how it was explained.
So even if block animation fails to appear or is delayed your still blocking as that gets prioritized. So they made it so there is better communication between actions from the client and response from the server. From what I understand. So it streamlines block, so server is more performative and also makes it so you are actually blocking when you actually need block even if you don't appear to be blocking from the client side. It fixes health desyncs that can cause issues like the death incap while alive bug and you appearing moving around as a corpse running around on the ground bug. Both caused by the old block system and how it worked.
That's a great explanation...if You have stable and decent ping and You're fignting NPC that is standing stil. If You're not then it's not that great explanation anymore.
Exactly - for those with high latency this is just bad and especially for 1h and shield a disaster with a high ping.0 -
Tan9oSuccka✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
A lot. Mostly a lot of bugs and lag, and some crashes toorelentless_turnip wrote: »I can't see what these changes has added to the game?
Never trust the client. Any developer who does, is a complete fool.relentless_turnip wrote: »We should have more load on the client not on the server
Agreed. This is the worst suggestion I’ve read in a long time.
This guy wants MORE on the client? There’s people playing this game with 500 ms or more ping.
No thanks.1 -
relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Tan9oSuccka wrote: »
A lot. Mostly a lot of bugs and lag, and some crashes toorelentless_turnip wrote: »I can't see what these changes has added to the game?
Never trust the client. Any developer who does, is a complete fool.relentless_turnip wrote: »We should have more load on the client not on the server
Agreed. This is the worst suggestion I’ve read in a long time.
This guy wants MORE on the client? There’s people playing this game with 500 ms or more ping.
No thanks.
Which would alleviate this?! i.e. more calculations on your computer rather than the server....
i.e less information to send/receive...0 -
Tan9oSuccka✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭relentless_turnip wrote: »Tan9oSuccka wrote: »
A lot. Mostly a lot of bugs and lag, and some crashes toorelentless_turnip wrote: »I can't see what these changes has added to the game?
Never trust the client. Any developer who does, is a complete fool.relentless_turnip wrote: »We should have more load on the client not on the server
Agreed. This is the worst suggestion I’ve read in a long time.
This guy wants MORE on the client? There’s people playing this game with 500 ms or more ping.
No thanks.
Which would alleviate this?! i.e. more calculations on your computer rather than the server....
i.e less information to send/receive...
If I had my way, region lock with more local servers.
I don’t want the server to have to figure out where to place a 500ms Brazilian player.
And I surely wouldn’t rely on anything client side.
0