Revert block changes, they have added nothing to ESO

relentless_turnip

I doubt it will happen as ZOS hasn't ever reverted anything.

I am suggesting we would see some dramatic improvements in performance if this is reverted.
I get ZOS wanted to reduce the client load for console players and it seems to a degree this has been done.
Surely this is worse? combat has been effected/ruined in different degrees depending what content you play.

I can't see what these changes has added to the game? It only seems to have done more harm than good.
We should have more load on the client not on the server, the server was already dying.

Every stream, conversation and thread are mentioning games like new world etc...
Retain your player base by ensuring this game is playable for everyone.

ZOS needs to revert this or at the very least release a statement.
I think the lack of communication is frustrating everyone!

I get this is mainly effecting endgame players and your business model is aimed at new/casual players.
Imagine retaining your loyal endgame players and attracting new players...

Thevampirenight

No its part of something they had to do to help with the performance. The update has in fact improved some players fps and performance while maybe making things worse so its a mixed result. Its one small step towards better game performance. Reverting it into a state that hurts the game performance then help it wouldn't be wise.

There is many things they need to do to improve performance and we will just have to get use to the changes. I'm sure or hope their work will actually help and in ways it has helped.Players shouldn't have their expectations to have it all magically fixed because it just doesn't get magically fixed. It takes a bit of time to fix and well there is many things they got to do to fix things.

Naftal

Thevampirenight wrote: »

No its part of something they had to do to help with the performance. The update has in fact improved some players fps and performance while maybe making things worse so its a mixed result. Its one small step towards better game performance. Reverting it into a state that hurts the game performance then help it wouldn't be wise.

There is many things they need to do to improve performance and we will just got to get use to the changes. I'm sure or hope their work will actually help and in ways it has helped.Players shouldn't have their expectations to have it all magically fixed because it just doesn't get magically fixed. It takes a bit of time to fix and well there is many things they got to do to fix things.

Oh you sweet summer child.

Elsonso

No, you are right in that this is not going to happen. The changes are for server side performance, and my guess is that those are working as intended. They won't go back, if that is the case. Now, they just need to fix whatever they broke.

Thevampirenight

Elsonso wrote: »

No, you are right in that this is not going to happen. The changes are for server side performance, and my guess is that those are working as intended. They won't go back, if that is the case. Now, they just need to fix whatever they broke.

Well fixing stuff straining the server is still vital for performance. Not sure on this personally but I think it would help with other issues that we see like latency spikes and latency getting worse. Fixing things on the server is still vital for helping the game. Even if players might not see much of an impact when it comes to better performance. I'm sure there is still an impact that helps with performance in other ways. Maybe just not the one players are hoping for but well if it helps then the block changes should stay and they shouldn't be reverted.

TheRealCherokeee3

Even IF lag gets reduced to near nonexistence, and DC's become a rarity, and stable game play (connection wise) are all achieved that STILL wont retain alot of endgame players. Why? again, as many have said over and over, block cancel was the lynch pin in most arguments over combat both in an endgame PvP and PvE setting. Having our combat slowed to such an extent that we are mashing buttons between each skill, is a deal breaker for most. This was again, an intended change via animations and block cancel changes...not lag based. We've all endured the lag issues and mostly overcame them via block cancel. We also mostly overcame zergs and other growing metas via doing chain skill combos and reactive game play.
There's always these two arguments in these threads: server/connection performance-and user input performance via ani cancel. And 9 times out of 10 when I have to choose, I'll choose ani cancel over server performance. Why? because I have no control over server issues. I do however, have control over my character with ani cancel. So I agree with OP in reverting changes. Keep the changes to optimization, server performance, packet loss, and reducing file size on our systems be they console or PC thats all great. Dont revert those. Simply revert block changes. Give us our reactive game play back. Those who dislike ani cancel can continue not utilizing it and running in ball groups ect, and those who do like it can choose to enjoy mastering a skill in an otherwise static atmosphere (static in that theres only so far one can go via sets and champion points until you hit a ceiling).

le_spy

i do so like people making examples of things that were literally placebo effects for years already and did not make actual skill combos do damage any faster (all the skills that actually benefitted massively from block cancel in regards to effect realisation speed e.g dawnbreaker, incap already got cast times thus this point is completely gone), but you just had sense of rythm which you do not just 'feel' right now, the actual skill firing time is actually still the same, but keep believing in placebo effects

TheRealCherokeee3

le_spy wrote: »

i do so like people making examples of things that were literally placebo effects for years already and did not make actual skill combos do damage any faster (all the skills that actually benefitted massively from block cancel in regards to effect realisation speed e.g dawnbreaker, incap already got cast times thus this point is completely gone), but you just had sense of rythm which you do not just 'feel' right now, the actual skill firing time is actually still the same, but keep believing in placebo effects

https://youtube.com/watch?v=Uyc5-wvCy08

I figured eventually I'd earn some typical forum snark. I wasn't trying to get into a nerd argument with you personally? And many seasoned long term players havent left over placebo.

Fur_like_snow

It actually made the server issues worse by adding additional layers of server side checks.

https://youtu.be/CIzNq2exFHs

Kadoin

They have added something: for your tank to glitch in PvE and you die and/or get group wiped because you couldn't use a skill and/or block for more than two seconds thanks to an artificial barrier added in the most recent two patches. Then your crush gets angry at you and you at them, only for hours later the both of you cool down and realize the game was just being crappy and you should apologize to each other awkwardly.

Is that not an added fun element? It is, right? You know it is, come on!

Major_Lag

relentless_turnip wrote: »

I can't see what these changes has added to the game?

A lot. Mostly a lot of bugs and lag, and some crashes too

relentless_turnip wrote: »

We should have more load on the client not on the server

Never trust the client. Any developer who does, is a complete fool.

BloodMagicLord

Meh. I main a tank in trials and I got used to the change pretty quickly. On the DD side, block casting/cancelling never really gave you any advantage damage-wise anyway. Perhaps it looks or feels faster but it was never able to break the global cooldown.

relentless_turnip

Fur_like_snow wrote: »

It actually made the server issues worse by adding additional layers of server side checks.

https://youtu.be/CIzNq2exFHs

I saw this last night... a very well made video!

Sanguinor2

Major_Lag wrote: »

Never trust the client. Any developer who does, is a complete fool.

And guess which game had a big amount of Client side calculations at launch, im still convinced that that is the main reason for cyro Performance dying.

relentless_turnip

Major_Lag wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

I can't see what these changes has added to the game?

A lot. Mostly a lot of bugs and lag, and some crashes too

relentless_turnip wrote: »

We should have more load on the client not on the server

Never trust the client. Any developer who does, is a complete fool.

The combat is unarguably worse with block being moved server side.
I am not understanding your argument for that reason.

relentless_turnip

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Major_Lag wrote: »

Never trust the client. Any developer who does, is a complete fool.

And guess which game had a big amount of Client side calculations at launch, im still convinced that that is the main reason for cyro Performance dying.

I wasn't playing back then, but I hear it was a lighting patch or to stop botting? and they moved a lot to the server and performance fell off a cliff!

ZarkingFrued

When people actually believe the block changes were for any reason other than to appease casuals and groups who get mad that they lost to a few good players

Major_Lag

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Major_Lag wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

I can't see what these changes has added to the game?

A lot. Mostly a lot of bugs and lag, and some crashes too

relentless_turnip wrote: »

We should have more load on the client not on the server

Never trust the client. Any developer who does, is a complete fool.

The combat is unarguably worse with block being moved server side.
I am not understanding your argument for that reason.

The reason is simple - the instant you (as a developer) start to trust the client about anything else than the absolute bare bones minimum (player inputs), you have already lost the entire war against cheaters.

Because any calculation which the client is trusted to perform can be interfered with by various means, and with the right methods it can be manipulated in arbitrary ways.

If you have something which you really, REALLY need to trust the client with (in your example, blocking calculations), this should be done by implementing strict sanity checking on the server side and automatically banning players who repeatedly fail the sanity checks on the data their clients are supplying.
But, banning paying customers is kinda a poor business practice... you can probably see where I'm going with this.

relentless_turnip

Major_Lag wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Major_Lag wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

I can't see what these changes has added to the game?

A lot. Mostly a lot of bugs and lag, and some crashes too

relentless_turnip wrote: »

We should have more load on the client not on the server

Never trust the client. Any developer who does, is a complete fool.

The combat is unarguably worse with block being moved server side.
I am not understanding your argument for that reason.

The reason is simple - the instant you (as a developer) start to trust the client about anything else than the absolute bare bones minimum (player inputs), you have already lost the entire war against cheaters.

Because any calculation which the client is trusted to perform can be interfered with by various means, and with the right methods it can be manipulated in arbitrary ways.

If you have something which you really, REALLY need to trust the client with (in your example, blocking calculations), this should be done by implementing strict sanity checking on the server side and automatically banning players who repeatedly fail the sanity checks on the data their clients are supplying.
But, banning paying customers is kinda a poor business practice... you can probably see where I'm going with this.

I would rather play with cheaters and be able to cast skills when i need to

Thanks for explaining though... I do appreciate not everyone would feel the same.

Fur_like_snow

Major_Lag wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Major_Lag wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

I can't see what these changes has added to the game?

A lot. Mostly a lot of bugs and lag, and some crashes too

relentless_turnip wrote: »

We should have more load on the client not on the server

Never trust the client. Any developer who does, is a complete fool.

The combat is unarguably worse with block being moved server side.
I am not understanding your argument for that reason.

The reason is simple - the instant you (as a developer) start to trust the client about anything else than the absolute bare bones minimum (player inputs), you have already lost the entire war against cheaters.

Because any calculation which the client is trusted to perform can be interfered with by various means, and with the right methods it can be manipulated in arbitrary ways.

If you have something which you really, REALLY need to trust the client with (in your example, blocking calculations), this should be done by implementing strict sanity checking on the server side and automatically banning players who repeatedly fail the sanity checks on the data their clients are supplying.
But, banning paying customers is kinda a poor business practice... you can probably see where I'm going with this.

I’d rather have cheaters than the way the game works currently.

Sanguinor2

relentless_turnip wrote: »

I would rather play with cheaters and be able to cast skills when i need to

Thanks for explaining though... I do appreciate not everyone would feel the same.

You might Change your mind once they start flying over Keep walls and drop 20 Meteors on you all while being unkillable^^

relentless_turnip

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

I would rather play with cheaters and be able to cast skills when i need to

Thanks for explaining though... I do appreciate not everyone would feel the same.

You might Change your mind once they start flying over Keep walls and drop 20 Meteors on you all while being unkillable^^

sounds hilarious and a fast way to a ban

TheRealCherokeee3

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

I would rather play with cheaters and be able to cast skills when i need to

Thanks for explaining though... I do appreciate not everyone would feel the same.

You might Change your mind once they start flying over Keep walls and drop 20 Meteors on you all while being unkillable^^

Not cool...but...damn that would be pretty awesome to watch

BooPerScOOper

it was

Major_Lag

BooPerScOOper wrote: »

it was

And that's why we can't have nice things.
Also, this is the reason why the client should never ever be trusted.

luen79rwb17_ESO

My ping is horrible lately and it jumps to worse levels when I go into BGs... Normally it was the opposite, if I was parked in say, Rimmen or Craglorn I could have a lil higher ping but it would go down once I jumped into the BG instance. Now it's the opposite!! It's kindda funny actually.

Thevampirenight

Naftal wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

No its part of something they had to do to help with the performance. The update has in fact improved some players fps and performance while maybe making things worse so its a mixed result. Its one small step towards better game performance. Reverting it into a state that hurts the game performance then help it wouldn't be wise.

There is many things they need to do to improve performance and we will just got to get use to the changes. I'm sure or hope their work will actually help and in ways it has helped.Players shouldn't have their expectations to have it all magically fixed because it just doesn't get magically fixed. It takes a bit of time to fix and well there is many things they got to do to fix things.

Oh you sweet summer child.

I wonder how you knew I was born in the summer months?

Jaraal

Thevampirenight wrote: »

No its part of something they had to do to help with the performance. The update has in fact improved some players fps and performance while maybe making things worse so its a mixed result. Its one small step towards better game performance. Reverting it into a state that hurts the game performance then help it wouldn't be wise.

Game played much better for me before Update 25. FPS doesn't mean squat if your skills don't work and you are constantly stuck in combat.

relentless_turnip

Jaraal wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

No its part of something they had to do to help with the performance. The update has in fact improved some players fps and performance while maybe making things worse so its a mixed result. Its one small step towards better game performance. Reverting it into a state that hurts the game performance then help it wouldn't be wise.

Game played much better for me before Update 25. FPS doesn't mean squat if your skills don't work and you are constantly stuck in combat.

Totally agree mate!

Thevampirenight

TheRealCherokeee3 wrote: »

Even IF lag gets reduced to near nonexistence, and DC's become a rarity, and stable game play (connection wise) are all achieved that STILL wont retain alot of endgame players. Why? again, as many have said over and over, block cancel was the lynch pin in most arguments over combat both in an endgame PvP and PvE setting. Having our combat slowed to such an extent that we are mashing buttons between each skill, is a deal breaker for most. This was again, an intended change via animations and block cancel changes...not lag based. We've all endured the lag issues and mostly overcame them via block cancel. We also mostly overcame zergs and other growing metas via doing chain skill combos and reactive game play.
There's always these two arguments in these threads: server/connection performance-and user input performance via ani cancel. And 9 times out of 10 when I have to choose, I'll choose ani cancel over server performance. Why? because I have no control over server issues. I do however, have control over my character with ani cancel. So I agree with OP in reverting changes. Keep the changes to optimization, server performance, packet loss, and reducing file size on our systems be they console or PC thats all great. Dont revert those. Simply revert block changes. Give us our reactive game play back. Those who dislike ani cancel can continue not utilizing it and running in ball groups ect, and those who do like it can choose to enjoy mastering a skill in an otherwise static atmosphere (static in that theres only so far one can go via sets and champion points until you hit a ceiling).

Still there would be a flux of new players over time that would not know the old block and would be just fine with the new one. So Its not really a deal breaker. I just think people don't like adjusting to change and I don't blame them. However sometimes change is good even if we don't think it is. Better with the block changes plus a fully playable game that has very little issues then a game with out the block changes and unplayable.

Rikumaru

Thevampirenight wrote: »

TheRealCherokeee3 wrote: »

Even IF lag gets reduced to near nonexistence, and DC's become a rarity, and stable game play (connection wise) are all achieved that STILL wont retain alot of endgame players. Why? again, as many have said over and over, block cancel was the lynch pin in most arguments over combat both in an endgame PvP and PvE setting. Having our combat slowed to such an extent that we are mashing buttons between each skill, is a deal breaker for most. This was again, an intended change via animations and block cancel changes...not lag based. We've all endured the lag issues and mostly overcame them via block cancel. We also mostly overcame zergs and other growing metas via doing chain skill combos and reactive game play.
There's always these two arguments in these threads: server/connection performance-and user input performance via ani cancel. And 9 times out of 10 when I have to choose, I'll choose ani cancel over server performance. Why? because I have no control over server issues. I do however, have control over my character with ani cancel. So I agree with OP in reverting changes. Keep the changes to optimization, server performance, packet loss, and reducing file size on our systems be they console or PC thats all great. Dont revert those. Simply revert block changes. Give us our reactive game play back. Those who dislike ani cancel can continue not utilizing it and running in ball groups ect, and those who do like it can choose to enjoy mastering a skill in an otherwise static atmosphere (static in that theres only so far one can go via sets and champion points until you hit a ceiling).

Still there would be a flux of new players over time that would not know the old block and would be just fine with the new one. So Its not really a deal breaker. I just think people don't like adjusting to change and I don't blame them. However sometimes change is good even if we don't think it is. Better with the block changes plus a fully playable game that has very little issues then a game with out the block changes and unplayable.

The game is unplayable with the block changes and it alienates the current playerbase. Can you point out where the benefits are in these changes?