Should Zos do something about ballgroups in cyrodiil ?

pieratsos · March 2020

VaranisArano wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

What is ZOS gonna do? Nerf teamwork? Eliminate all voice comms?

A. ZOS can't give out some sort of magic skill or set that will let players kill the ball groups. They've tried. Everything they do promptly gets used to even better effect by the organized ball groups against everyone else.

B. ZOS can't do anything to fix players stacking up in large battles when that's exactly what Cyrodiil is designed to create: large battles over important keeps and objectives. And if those ball groups spread out and take less important objectives, then players complain that they are PvDooring or farming players. So even if you dropped the max group size to 8 to 12, you'd still see large battles and coordinated groups running together.

I chuckle every time I read this argument. Since when are ball groups and large scale fights the same thing. Are you seriously telling people that Cyrodiil was designed for groups of 20 people stacking into one square inch and moving in a straight line spamming AOEs? And since when is teamwork and ball groups the same thing?

Cyrodiil was indeed originally designed for groups of 8 to 24 players. It was right there on the Alliance groupfinder (later changed to groups of 2 to 24, then removed because ZOS figured out that the vast majority of groups use voice comms or zone chat to group up). ZOS probably didn't have those particular tactics in mind at launch, but that's hardly the only example of things they didn't anticipate *cough* animation canceling *cough*.

Cyrodiil is also designed to get large fights going over important objectives like home keeps, Emperorship and scrolls, which can involve anything from ball groups to PUG raids to faction-stacked zergs. Given that the server can't handle large fights very well, even removing ball groups entirely wouldn't actually solve Cyrodiil's performance issues.

As for teamwork? I'm not sure how using ball groups using voice comms, coordinating their sets and group composition, and moving as a disciplined unit on the battlefield doesn't qualify as teamwork. Its certainly a heck of a lot better teamwork than I see out of the average LFG raid in zone chat where half the people don't bring siege or peel off from the fight as soon as they see a squirrel. But maybe you have a different definition of teamwork you'd like to share?

Apples and oranges. Read again. The question wasn't whether Cyrodiil was designed for large scale fights. The question was since when large scale fights and ball groups are the same thing.

I never said ball group isn't teamwork. I said since when ball group is the only forum of teamwork.

Iskiab · March 2020

Crash427 wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

I think if performance was ever fixed ball groups wouldn’t be an issue. Poor performance hits cast time abilities hardest for some reason, if inevitable det actually worked most wouldn’t last long.

Most of why they work is eye of the storm, prox det, etc... all the things to blow up melee if they get close work, while at the same time the abilities people need to counter them from range don’t work.

Lag favors the zerg, not the ball group.

It does and it doesn’t. Lag is bad enough for everyone ball group counters don’t work like inevitable det. If that ability alone worked as intended ball groups wouldn’t be a thing.

With how much cleansing is happening you should be able to spam it and have it explode every GCD, but you can only get one off every 5 secs or so, if it even works.

VaranisArano · March 2020

pieratsos wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

What is ZOS gonna do? Nerf teamwork? Eliminate all voice comms?

A. ZOS can't give out some sort of magic skill or set that will let players kill the ball groups. They've tried. Everything they do promptly gets used to even better effect by the organized ball groups against everyone else.

B. ZOS can't do anything to fix players stacking up in large battles when that's exactly what Cyrodiil is designed to create: large battles over important keeps and objectives. And if those ball groups spread out and take less important objectives, then players complain that they are PvDooring or farming players. So even if you dropped the max group size to 8 to 12, you'd still see large battles and coordinated groups running together.

I chuckle every time I read this argument. Since when are ball groups and large scale fights the same thing. Are you seriously telling people that Cyrodiil was designed for groups of 20 people stacking into one square inch and moving in a straight line spamming AOEs? And since when is teamwork and ball groups the same thing?

Cyrodiil was indeed originally designed for groups of 8 to 24 players. It was right there on the Alliance groupfinder (later changed to groups of 2 to 24, then removed because ZOS figured out that the vast majority of groups use voice comms or zone chat to group up). ZOS probably didn't have those particular tactics in mind at launch, but that's hardly the only example of things they didn't anticipate *cough* animation canceling *cough*.

Cyrodiil is also designed to get large fights going over important objectives like home keeps, Emperorship and scrolls, which can involve anything from ball groups to PUG raids to faction-stacked zergs. Given that the server can't handle large fights very well, even removing ball groups entirely wouldn't actually solve Cyrodiil's performance issues.

As for teamwork? I'm not sure how using ball groups using voice comms, coordinating their sets and group composition, and moving as a disciplined unit on the battlefield doesn't qualify as teamwork. Its certainly a heck of a lot better teamwork than I see out of the average LFG raid in zone chat where half the people don't bring siege or peel off from the fight as soon as they see a squirrel. But maybe you have a different definition of teamwork you'd like to share?

Apples and oranges. Read again. The question wasn't whether Cyrodiil was designed for large scale fights. The question was since when large scale fights and ball groups are the same thing.

I never said ball group isn't teamwork. I said since when ball group is the only forum of teamwork.

Thank you for clarifying what you were trying to say.

Unfortunately, you misunderstood me from the beginning, as I was pointing out that the large fights Cyrodiil is intended to create cause performance issues regardless of whether or not ball groups are involved in them or not. So eliminating ball groups is not a cure-all for performance issues, as some have argued. If you weren't arguing that, cool, and I wasn't addressing you.

Nor did I imply that ball groups have a monopoly on teamwork. I mean, surely that much is obvious? Coordinated small scale groups exist, I just didn't mention them because they aren't exactly the topic of this thread, you know? Even PUG raids manage to sort of work as a team, in a very loose sense. However, it is the organized tactics, team building, and coordination that have allowed ball groups to dominate the campaigns despite every change ZOS has thrown their way. Its that teamwork that makes them effective. In fact, you see the same thing with good small scale groups who fight within their weight limit - ZOS can't effectively nerf them because they also adapt to gameplay changes as a team. Or for that matter, look at battlegrounds or how top PVE trials teams adapt very quickly to the changing PVE meta. In any group-oriented content, teamwork is OP. Cyrodiil was designed from launch for group play - it should be no surprise that any sized group that fights as a team is going to be far more effective than a greater number of disorganized players.

So when the OP asks what ZOS can do about ball groups...unless you nerf teamwork, ball groups will keep right on adapting their tactics and team composition to any new nerfs. That's exactly what's happened every other time ZOS changed PVP gameplay.

apri · March 2020

The increased favor towards heavy and tanky builds plays its fair share in the whole zergball problem. And that's caused by combat and balance decisions. So while there is some effort to fix symptoms aka nerfing AOE skills, visuals and whatnot, one key problem stays. If it takes 10 people to kill one, there will be and stay a favor towards larger groups to get stuff done in a timely manner. And this in the consequence leads to a lot of players in action around tiny spots.

Also while Volendrung contributes to chaos, randomness and some great fun, it also is a strong magnet to bring a lot of players to a very narrow battlefield within the large zone of Cyrodiil. So there's a lot of design choices towards zerging. I mean if it is wanted, why not, go for it. The issue is that the servers cannot cope with it and therefore said design choices put pressure on an already weak infrastructure (be it servers, clients, bandwith issues or whatnot). A wise thought would be to re-focus those priorities. Away from zergs if those are identified as troublemakers for the experience.

We the players do or deal with what the game gives us. If that's not what helps the game on a grander scheme of things, it's upon the team to make the appropriate changes. Instead of working around symptoms.

pieratsos · March 2020

VaranisArano wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

What is ZOS gonna do? Nerf teamwork? Eliminate all voice comms?

A. ZOS can't give out some sort of magic skill or set that will let players kill the ball groups. They've tried. Everything they do promptly gets used to even better effect by the organized ball groups against everyone else.

B. ZOS can't do anything to fix players stacking up in large battles when that's exactly what Cyrodiil is designed to create: large battles over important keeps and objectives. And if those ball groups spread out and take less important objectives, then players complain that they are PvDooring or farming players. So even if you dropped the max group size to 8 to 12, you'd still see large battles and coordinated groups running together.

I chuckle every time I read this argument. Since when are ball groups and large scale fights the same thing. Are you seriously telling people that Cyrodiil was designed for groups of 20 people stacking into one square inch and moving in a straight line spamming AOEs? And since when is teamwork and ball groups the same thing?

Cyrodiil was indeed originally designed for groups of 8 to 24 players. It was right there on the Alliance groupfinder (later changed to groups of 2 to 24, then removed because ZOS figured out that the vast majority of groups use voice comms or zone chat to group up). ZOS probably didn't have those particular tactics in mind at launch, but that's hardly the only example of things they didn't anticipate *cough* animation canceling *cough*.

Cyrodiil is also designed to get large fights going over important objectives like home keeps, Emperorship and scrolls, which can involve anything from ball groups to PUG raids to faction-stacked zergs. Given that the server can't handle large fights very well, even removing ball groups entirely wouldn't actually solve Cyrodiil's performance issues.

As for teamwork? I'm not sure how using ball groups using voice comms, coordinating their sets and group composition, and moving as a disciplined unit on the battlefield doesn't qualify as teamwork. Its certainly a heck of a lot better teamwork than I see out of the average LFG raid in zone chat where half the people don't bring siege or peel off from the fight as soon as they see a squirrel. But maybe you have a different definition of teamwork you'd like to share?

Apples and oranges. Read again. The question wasn't whether Cyrodiil was designed for large scale fights. The question was since when large scale fights and ball groups are the same thing.

I never said ball group isn't teamwork. I said since when ball group is the only forum of teamwork.

Thank you for clarifying what you were trying to say.

Unfortunately, you misunderstood me from the beginning, as I was pointing out that the large fights Cyrodiil is intended to create cause performance issues regardless of whether or not ball groups are involved in them or not. So eliminating ball groups is not a cure-all for performance issues, as some have argued. If you weren't arguing that, cool, and I wasn't addressing you.

Nor did I imply that ball groups have a monopoly on teamwork. I mean, surely that much is obvious? Coordinated small scale groups exist, I just didn't mention them because they aren't exactly the topic of this thread, you know? Even PUG raids manage to sort of work as a team, in a very loose sense. However, it is the organized tactics, team building, and coordination that have allowed ball groups to dominate the campaigns despite every change ZOS has thrown their way. Its that teamwork that makes them effective. In fact, you see the same thing with good small scale groups who fight within their weight limit - ZOS can't effectively nerf them because they also adapt to gameplay changes as a team. Or for that matter, look at battlegrounds or how top PVE trials teams adapt very quickly to the changing PVE meta. In any group-oriented content, teamwork is OP. Cyrodiil was designed from launch for group play - it should be no surprise that any sized group that fights as a team is going to be far more effective than a greater number of disorganized players.

So when the OP asks what ZOS can do about ball groups...unless you nerf teamwork, ball groups will keep right on adapting their tactics and team composition to any new nerfs. That's exactly what's happened every other time ZOS changed PVP gameplay.

And you see, this is where we disagree about teamwork. Its not that it doesnt need teamwork. But when you are saying its team composition, teamwork, organised tactics and stuff that make them that effective then you are overexaggerating to say the least. Im sorry but taking advantage of poorly implemented mechanics is not organised tactics or adapting to changes.

And yes teamwork should be OP. But OP in a good way. Players being in voice comms and one asking the other for resources through shards for example or asking for a heal or a DK leaping in a group piling up on his buddy to stun them and give his buddy time to recover is good teamwork. Thats healthy for the game. A giant ball running around doing tens of thousands of dmg with synergies and having infinite healing because the mechanics of the game are stupid is not good teamwork. Its dumb teamwork.

The only similarity ball groups have with PVE trial groups is the stack and burn everything tactics. Ironically ZOS is trying to stir away from that and make trials more mechanic heavy forcing people to actually pay attention to what they are doing, follow mechanics and create new tactics to complete content. Ironically thats also what should happen with PVP. See above for the difference between good teamwork and bad teamwork. You are not nerfing teamwork, you are promoting it.

We can sit here talking about teamwork or lag or whatever but at the end of the day its the playstyle itself and how it looks. Some like it some dont like it and with this state of PVP and i dont blame anyone for balling up. But the playstyle itself and how it looks is dumb, im sorry but it is. When you see a ball running and the only thing you have to do is just step out of their way its stupid. Every time i see a ball group the only thing that comes in my mind is the crowd control song and the group leader singing "everybody go to the left left left everybody go the right right right, everybody go up up up everybody go down down down". Like what the flying f*** is going on. Thats group play and large scale fights?

VaranisArano · March 2020

pieratsos wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

What is ZOS gonna do? Nerf teamwork? Eliminate all voice comms?

A. ZOS can't give out some sort of magic skill or set that will let players kill the ball groups. They've tried. Everything they do promptly gets used to even better effect by the organized ball groups against everyone else.

B. ZOS can't do anything to fix players stacking up in large battles when that's exactly what Cyrodiil is designed to create: large battles over important keeps and objectives. And if those ball groups spread out and take less important objectives, then players complain that they are PvDooring or farming players. So even if you dropped the max group size to 8 to 12, you'd still see large battles and coordinated groups running together.

I chuckle every time I read this argument. Since when are ball groups and large scale fights the same thing. Are you seriously telling people that Cyrodiil was designed for groups of 20 people stacking into one square inch and moving in a straight line spamming AOEs? And since when is teamwork and ball groups the same thing?

Cyrodiil was indeed originally designed for groups of 8 to 24 players. It was right there on the Alliance groupfinder (later changed to groups of 2 to 24, then removed because ZOS figured out that the vast majority of groups use voice comms or zone chat to group up). ZOS probably didn't have those particular tactics in mind at launch, but that's hardly the only example of things they didn't anticipate *cough* animation canceling *cough*.

Cyrodiil is also designed to get large fights going over important objectives like home keeps, Emperorship and scrolls, which can involve anything from ball groups to PUG raids to faction-stacked zergs. Given that the server can't handle large fights very well, even removing ball groups entirely wouldn't actually solve Cyrodiil's performance issues.

As for teamwork? I'm not sure how using ball groups using voice comms, coordinating their sets and group composition, and moving as a disciplined unit on the battlefield doesn't qualify as teamwork. Its certainly a heck of a lot better teamwork than I see out of the average LFG raid in zone chat where half the people don't bring siege or peel off from the fight as soon as they see a squirrel. But maybe you have a different definition of teamwork you'd like to share?

Apples and oranges. Read again. The question wasn't whether Cyrodiil was designed for large scale fights. The question was since when large scale fights and ball groups are the same thing.

I never said ball group isn't teamwork. I said since when ball group is the only forum of teamwork.

Thank you for clarifying what you were trying to say.

Unfortunately, you misunderstood me from the beginning, as I was pointing out that the large fights Cyrodiil is intended to create cause performance issues regardless of whether or not ball groups are involved in them or not. So eliminating ball groups is not a cure-all for performance issues, as some have argued. If you weren't arguing that, cool, and I wasn't addressing you.

Nor did I imply that ball groups have a monopoly on teamwork. I mean, surely that much is obvious? Coordinated small scale groups exist, I just didn't mention them because they aren't exactly the topic of this thread, you know? Even PUG raids manage to sort of work as a team, in a very loose sense. However, it is the organized tactics, team building, and coordination that have allowed ball groups to dominate the campaigns despite every change ZOS has thrown their way. Its that teamwork that makes them effective. In fact, you see the same thing with good small scale groups who fight within their weight limit - ZOS can't effectively nerf them because they also adapt to gameplay changes as a team. Or for that matter, look at battlegrounds or how top PVE trials teams adapt very quickly to the changing PVE meta. In any group-oriented content, teamwork is OP. Cyrodiil was designed from launch for group play - it should be no surprise that any sized group that fights as a team is going to be far more effective than a greater number of disorganized players.

So when the OP asks what ZOS can do about ball groups...unless you nerf teamwork, ball groups will keep right on adapting their tactics and team composition to any new nerfs. That's exactly what's happened every other time ZOS changed PVP gameplay.

And you see, this is where we disagree about teamwork. Its not that it doesnt need teamwork. But when you are saying its team composition, teamwork, organised tactics and stuff that make them that effective then you are overexaggerating to say the least. Im sorry but taking advantage of poorly implemented mechanics is not organised tactics or adapting to changes.

And yes teamwork should be OP. But OP in a good way. Players being in voice comms and one asking the other for resources through shards for example or asking for a heal or a DK leaping in a group piling up on his buddy to stun them and give his buddy time to recover is good teamwork. Thats healthy for the game. A giant ball running around doing tens of thousands of dmg with synergies and having infinite healing because the mechanics of the game are stupid is not good teamwork. Its dumb teamwork.

The only similarity ball groups have with PVE trial groups is the stack and burn everything tactics. Ironically ZOS is trying to stir away from that and make trials more mechanic heavy forcing people to actually pay attention to what they are doing, follow mechanics and create new tactics to complete content. Ironically thats also what should happen with PVP. See above for the difference between good teamwork and bad teamwork. You are not nerfing teamwork, you are promoting it.

We can sit here talking about teamwork or lag or whatever but at the end of the day its the playstyle itself and how it looks. Some like it some dont like it and with this state of PVP and i dont blame anyone for balling up. But the playstyle itself and how it looks is dumb, im sorry but it is. When you see a ball running and the only thing you have to do is just step out of their way its stupid. Every time i see a ball group the only thing that comes in my mind is the crowd control song and the group leader singing "everybody go to the left left left everybody go the right right right, everybody go up up up everybody go down down down". Like what the flying f*** is going on. Thats group play and large scale fights?

Sure, you can have your opinion that ball group team-play is dumb, looks dumb, and is just taking advantage of ZOS' gameplay mechanics in ways you don't like. That's a fair opinion. I'll be honest, I don't care to derail into debating your opinion.

To get back to the original point I made - what, five pages ago - I've yet to see anyone suggest something that can counter my original point of "ZOS can't give out some sort of magic skill or set that will let players kill the ball groups. They've tried. Everything they do promptly gets used to even better effect by the organized ball groups against everyone else."

Because that's what ball groups do. They figure out what the most effective gameplay mechanics for their playstyle are and use them as a large group. And when ZOS changes something, they move on to the next most effective tactic and use it as a team. That's no accident, just like how PVE trials groups don't accidentally all switch over to the new meta when ZOS changes sets, classes, and skills.

Say it looks dumb if you want, but that's why ZOS hasn't been able to effectively nerf ball groups despite every single other thing they've tried.

I think you know that, given your example of synergies. Synergies might be part of the reason ball groups are powerful right now, but ball groups dominated long before Summerset made syngeries OP and if synergies were removed tomorrow ball groups would just move onto the next thing and continue dominating with something else.

pieratsos · March 2020

VaranisArano wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

What is ZOS gonna do? Nerf teamwork? Eliminate all voice comms?

A. ZOS can't give out some sort of magic skill or set that will let players kill the ball groups. They've tried. Everything they do promptly gets used to even better effect by the organized ball groups against everyone else.

B. ZOS can't do anything to fix players stacking up in large battles when that's exactly what Cyrodiil is designed to create: large battles over important keeps and objectives. And if those ball groups spread out and take less important objectives, then players complain that they are PvDooring or farming players. So even if you dropped the max group size to 8 to 12, you'd still see large battles and coordinated groups running together.

I chuckle every time I read this argument. Since when are ball groups and large scale fights the same thing. Are you seriously telling people that Cyrodiil was designed for groups of 20 people stacking into one square inch and moving in a straight line spamming AOEs? And since when is teamwork and ball groups the same thing?

Cyrodiil was indeed originally designed for groups of 8 to 24 players. It was right there on the Alliance groupfinder (later changed to groups of 2 to 24, then removed because ZOS figured out that the vast majority of groups use voice comms or zone chat to group up). ZOS probably didn't have those particular tactics in mind at launch, but that's hardly the only example of things they didn't anticipate *cough* animation canceling *cough*.

Cyrodiil is also designed to get large fights going over important objectives like home keeps, Emperorship and scrolls, which can involve anything from ball groups to PUG raids to faction-stacked zergs. Given that the server can't handle large fights very well, even removing ball groups entirely wouldn't actually solve Cyrodiil's performance issues.

As for teamwork? I'm not sure how using ball groups using voice comms, coordinating their sets and group composition, and moving as a disciplined unit on the battlefield doesn't qualify as teamwork. Its certainly a heck of a lot better teamwork than I see out of the average LFG raid in zone chat where half the people don't bring siege or peel off from the fight as soon as they see a squirrel. But maybe you have a different definition of teamwork you'd like to share?

Apples and oranges. Read again. The question wasn't whether Cyrodiil was designed for large scale fights. The question was since when large scale fights and ball groups are the same thing.

I never said ball group isn't teamwork. I said since when ball group is the only forum of teamwork.

Thank you for clarifying what you were trying to say.

Unfortunately, you misunderstood me from the beginning, as I was pointing out that the large fights Cyrodiil is intended to create cause performance issues regardless of whether or not ball groups are involved in them or not. So eliminating ball groups is not a cure-all for performance issues, as some have argued. If you weren't arguing that, cool, and I wasn't addressing you.

Nor did I imply that ball groups have a monopoly on teamwork. I mean, surely that much is obvious? Coordinated small scale groups exist, I just didn't mention them because they aren't exactly the topic of this thread, you know? Even PUG raids manage to sort of work as a team, in a very loose sense. However, it is the organized tactics, team building, and coordination that have allowed ball groups to dominate the campaigns despite every change ZOS has thrown their way. Its that teamwork that makes them effective. In fact, you see the same thing with good small scale groups who fight within their weight limit - ZOS can't effectively nerf them because they also adapt to gameplay changes as a team. Or for that matter, look at battlegrounds or how top PVE trials teams adapt very quickly to the changing PVE meta. In any group-oriented content, teamwork is OP. Cyrodiil was designed from launch for group play - it should be no surprise that any sized group that fights as a team is going to be far more effective than a greater number of disorganized players.

So when the OP asks what ZOS can do about ball groups...unless you nerf teamwork, ball groups will keep right on adapting their tactics and team composition to any new nerfs. That's exactly what's happened every other time ZOS changed PVP gameplay.

And you see, this is where we disagree about teamwork. Its not that it doesnt need teamwork. But when you are saying its team composition, teamwork, organised tactics and stuff that make them that effective then you are overexaggerating to say the least. Im sorry but taking advantage of poorly implemented mechanics is not organised tactics or adapting to changes.

And yes teamwork should be OP. But OP in a good way. Players being in voice comms and one asking the other for resources through shards for example or asking for a heal or a DK leaping in a group piling up on his buddy to stun them and give his buddy time to recover is good teamwork. Thats healthy for the game. A giant ball running around doing tens of thousands of dmg with synergies and having infinite healing because the mechanics of the game are stupid is not good teamwork. Its dumb teamwork.

The only similarity ball groups have with PVE trial groups is the stack and burn everything tactics. Ironically ZOS is trying to stir away from that and make trials more mechanic heavy forcing people to actually pay attention to what they are doing, follow mechanics and create new tactics to complete content. Ironically thats also what should happen with PVP. See above for the difference between good teamwork and bad teamwork. You are not nerfing teamwork, you are promoting it.

We can sit here talking about teamwork or lag or whatever but at the end of the day its the playstyle itself and how it looks. Some like it some dont like it and with this state of PVP and i dont blame anyone for balling up. But the playstyle itself and how it looks is dumb, im sorry but it is. When you see a ball running and the only thing you have to do is just step out of their way its stupid. Every time i see a ball group the only thing that comes in my mind is the crowd control song and the group leader singing "everybody go to the left left left everybody go the right right right, everybody go up up up everybody go down down down". Like what the flying f*** is going on. Thats group play and large scale fights?

Sure, you can have your opinion that ball group team-play is dumb, looks dumb, and is just taking advantage of ZOS' gameplay mechanics in ways you don't like. That's a fair opinion. I'll be honest, I don't care to derail into debating your opinion.

To get back to the original point I made - what, five pages ago - I've yet to see anyone suggest something that can counter my original point of "ZOS can't give out some sort of magic skill or set that will let players kill the ball groups. They've tried. Everything they do promptly gets used to even better effect by the organized ball groups against everyone else."

Because that's what ball groups do. They figure out what the most effective gameplay mechanics for their playstyle are and use them as a large group. And when ZOS changes something, they move on to the next most effective tactic and use it as a team. That's no accident, just like how PVE trials groups don't accidentally all switch over to the new meta when ZOS changes sets, classes, and skills.

Say it looks dumb if you want, but that's why ZOS hasn't been able to effectively nerf ball groups despite every single other thing they've tried.

I think you know that, given your example of synergies. Synergies might be part of the reason ball groups are powerful right now, but ball groups dominated long before Summerset made syngeries OP and if synergies were removed tomorrow ball groups would just move onto the next thing and continue dominating with something else.

To get back to the original point, the problem isnt that there isnt something to counter ball groups. We dont need something to counter ball groups. The problem is addressed at its root. Meaning address ball groups themselves and dont allow them in the first place.

Yes i know ball groups existed before harmony. Dumbed down and poorly implemented mechanics isnt something new.

Sephyr · March 2020

Mr_Walker wrote: »

Sephyr wrote: »

Make siege OP again. Problem solved. They can't play in a ballgroup if they're dead like the last time it was OP. They were too busy here complaining on the forum about how a giant rock isn't supposed to kill them.

Genius, apart from the lack of forethought involved. Good luck taking anything with any sort of defense.

Best of luck with your PvDoor goals in 2020.

Best of luck reading threads in 2021!

mayasunrising · March 2020

Yes. They should. Ballgroups kill performance.

purple-magicb16_ESO · March 2020

oXI_Viper_IXo wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

The defence for ball groups is rife here.

People actually enjoy playing like that?

Sheesh..

Well, yes...

There is something satisfying about playing in a tight, coordinated group and wiping groups with much larger numbers.

Not everyone enjoys playing the game in the same way.

Lol! I don't care for tight, coordinated groups so much as I do for winning. Lol! I guess you can better describe it as if ya can't beat em' , join em'.I admit it's not the most intelligent way to play the game but it helps when I'm feeling defeated and useless, so I don't do this all the time.

WilliamESO · March 2020

Just kill the group stop complain get better

dazee · March 2020

No, players can address ball groups with something called Bomblades and other such aoe burst.

WilliamESO · March 2020

Why can i carry every randoms vs Ball groups since 5 years and you not?

Earthewen · March 2020

Not sure they should do something about groups. How do you define a "ball group"? The game states that it is for groups up to 24. Raid vs Raid. At the games inception, it was advertised as being a game that could handle 100's of people all on one screen. The problem has persisted for years, so I don't think they will be able to do much about it. The original developers were all let or left for better jobs and we now have what's left. There are so many things broken now that I'm not sure they know where to start.

Let's even look at the cc's which were used as a way of slowing down and stopping people in ball groups in order to break them up and kill them.... We all know how the cc's are now overused by ball groups and immunity against them even when you're supposed to be immune doesn't exist.

Put a global cooldown on ALL cc's for at least 5 seconds to where you are actually immune to all cc's and then see what happens. Boom! Ball zerg dead or at least some of their members.

Naftal · March 2020

I can't believe the amount of anti-nerf trolls on this forum who start spouting BS right off the bat. Using ad hominems instead of arguing the topic.

Anti-nerf criers are the worst.

dsalter · March 2020

if only Zeni would buff the RANGED BALL BUSTER skill, you know, INEVITABLE DETONATION to be just as bloody good as proximity detonation.

why should bomb-blades be the only ones to be able to explode a whole blob group? if you could spam cast inevitable from a range less people would be inclined to stack up on crown.

but no its damage is capped because reasons?

PrimusNephilim · March 2020

No

MipMip · March 2020

AgaTheGreat wrote: »

Why should they do anything with it? It's another form of "Nerf X because it killed me"

Excellent reply and it has a well deserved 35 'agree'!

StormeReigns · March 2020

dsalter wrote: »

if only Zeni would buff the RANGED BALL BUSTER skill, you know, INEVITABLE DETONATION to be just as bloody good as proximity detonation.

why should bomb-blades be the only ones to be able to explode a whole blob group? if you could spam cast inevitable from a range less people would be inclined to stack up on crown.

but no its damage is capped because reasons?

IIRC, could be wrong though, Inevitable Detonation has a max cap at 15 (or 20?) per cast allowing it to casted at different individuals within the group to maximize and stretch out each explosion separately. Since Prox. Det is one and done, Inevitable Detonation can be spammed into a group on to as many players as long as one has the magicka.

RDMyers65b14_ESO · March 2020

Abyssmol wrote: »

RedGirl41 wrote: »

They created massive Alliance zergs by giving 6k free Ap for taking even empty keeps. If that wasn’t a thing they wouldnt faction stack as bad (obviously there will still be massive groups)

Agree. ZOS should reduce the number of AP given by the total number of players in a group - let's say after 4 players in a group start reducing AP earned by X percentage.

This has been my thinking for years. Then a certain guild that BRAGS about running a group of 70+ in the CP 30 day campaign would actually be running into negative AP. It would solve the problem.

TequilaFire · March 2020

RDMyers65b14_ESO wrote: »

Abyssmol wrote: »

RedGirl41 wrote: »

They created massive Alliance zergs by giving 6k free Ap for taking even empty keeps. If that wasn’t a thing they wouldnt faction stack as bad (obviously there will still be massive groups)

Agree. ZOS should reduce the number of AP given by the total number of players in a group - let's say after 4 players in a group start reducing AP earned by X percentage.

This has been my thinking for years. Then a certain guild that BRAGS about running a group of 70+ in the CP 30 day campaign would actually be running into negative AP. It would solve the problem.

Group cap is 24, so they are running 3 groups if they are 70+ coordinated by guild chat/discord.
So AP reduction would be maxed at 24.

xWarbrain · March 2020

pieratsos wrote: »

Meaning address ball groups themselves and dont allow them in the first place.

Yes, don't allow the use of an efficient combination abilities, sets, and communication against large groups that throw themselves into the oncoming traffic.

dsalter wrote: »

if only Zeni would buff the RANGED BALL BUSTER skill, you know, INEVITABLE DETONATION to be just as bloody good as proximity detonation.

why should bomb-blades be the only ones to be able to explode a whole blob group? if you could spam cast inevitable from a range less people would be inclined to stack up on crown.

but no its damage is capped because reasons?

And what's to stop ball groups from using it against even larger groups? Any skill that you add or buff to combat ball groups is just as likely to be used by the ball groups (i.e. Proxy Det in the first place). Why would it kill them and not a whole zerg of players?

Skills to stop a ball group are already in the game. Players just need to L2P.

trackdemon5512 · March 2020

Implement Cyrodiil “Social Distancing”.

Reyleigh · March 2020

Another day in cyro, another day dealing with annoying ballzergs
I wish they would give us skills or siege weapons that would allow us to lay traps in the form of anti personnel mines, since ballgroups just mindlessly advance in a straight line it'd be really fun watching them step on a mine field and get rekt all by their lonesome