Should Zos do something about ballgroups in cyrodiil ?

gatekeeper13 · March 2020

Ballgroups require almost zero skill. Just spamming same AOE abilities again and again and benefiting from group buffs and healing. If some people find that enjoyable, be my guest and play like that. For me its a silly way of playing pvp to hide your weaknesses as a player and make you feel strong.

But you cant ban it. People have the right to form ballgroups if they want. Its our problem to find a way to counter them, with negates etc etc.

Spearpoint · March 2020

What do you think should be "done"? Implement some sort of "chasoball" effect, where they take progressivily more damage over time while there's many players near each other?

As much as I find the ballgroups annyoying, I don't think it's easy to maintain a good ball. So just keep it as it is, for those who prefer running in such a way. They buffed Vicious Death (not the set itself, I think, just the way the set works), didn't they?

That's one way to try to "fix" the ballgroup yourself

Carespanker · March 2020

Spearpoint wrote: »

What do you think should be "done"? Implement some sort of "chasoball" effect, where they take progressivily more damage over time while there's many players near each other?

I mentioned adding a chaosball effect to make scroll trolling harder ages ago in my last suggestions for cyrodiil thread. It wouldn't stop ball groups but it'd fix a lot of the scroll shinanigans which good ball groups usually do regularly.

ZonasArch · March 2020

All I've seen here so far is OP trying to tell the enemies how to fight the war, so enemies lose their advantages and OP wins

Now, imagine that... In a WAR, where you need to win using all the strategies and weapons at your disposal, but you decide to listen to your enemy instead. "Sure, I won't have a barricade on the road." "Oh, what's that? Ok, no protection on the gates. Done." And "ok, I'll have just a small platoon attacking you while the rest of the battalion goes out on 2 days leave to drink and relax. Makes sense!"

OP, you know the story of the Spartans that fought Xerxes, yes? They (relatively) suceeded by adapting their strategies to the enemy and the situation, not by asking Xerxes to attack with smaller groups... If you're being squeezed by ball groups, get a bigger better group and fight them back.

"I want to be able to solo or small scale". Well... This is war. "Want" is not a factor. "Winning" is the only factor. And you can't fight wars with single individuals running around like mindless brawlers. You can't have an army built with drunk pub troublemakers...

Karm1cOne · March 2020

A lot of people here seem to have terminology that doesn't match. My understanding is thus:

A ball group is a 15-24 man group, usually with set composition of healers, support and dps.

A zerg is usually 15+ people grouped without set composition.

A faction stack is 40+ players of multiple groups and solo who run to objectives together.

As I see it, only the last group caused massive disconnects and skills not firing. Although additional laggyness occurs weekends/primetime with all groupings.

Sandman929 · March 2020

If there weren't zergs, ballgroups would be less appealing. Ballgroups are intentionally made strong because due to sheer numbers, zergs are accidentally very strong. Many people have suggested changes that ZOS and a lot of the player base seems to be uninterested in trying:
1. Limit healing/buffing to group members only
2. Reduce maximum group size to 12-16
These 2 changes would be the best first steps to reducing server calculations and make the gameplay better around organized groups and disorganized zergs. I don't think there's a reason to attempt nerfing organization, but I do agree that Cyrodiil is designed for large scale, and something has to be done to help large scale perform better.

KappaKid83 · March 2020

Fengrush has really been vocal about this for a while but a great idea, and his idea, is to limit group sizes to 12, makes skills only work within the group and it should really help server load. This does put a damper on being able to just run solo and spam mutagen or just heal for AP grinding but it helps the server a lot and would do a lot for the performance.

Edit: I did not see that Fengrush had commented on this thread already, but yeah, his ideas are really good.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · March 2020

Karm1cOne wrote: »

A lot of people here seem to have terminology that doesn't match. My understanding is thus:

A ball group is a 15-24 man group, usually with set composition of healers, support and dps.

A zerg is usually 15+ people grouped without set composition.

A faction stack is 40+ players of multiple groups and solo who run to objectives together.

As I see it, only the last group caused massive disconnects and skills not firing. Although additional laggyness occurs weekends/primetime with all groupings.

The term ball group/bomb group is actually quite outdated with the current meta but it refers to a playstyle rather than a group size.
Originally the design was to take out the maximum number of players with the minimum number of people in a self contained way (without external support from their faction).
For example this is currently around 8-10 (comfortably) but ranging from between 6-12 as a rough guide.

Anything that simply seeks to overwhelm enemy forces with numbers is a zerg.
For example a 'ball group' can zerg their opponents - for example when groups fight a small amount of pugs or even equal numbers of unorganised players.

With how the game is these days most groups of 15+ will generally be "zerging" due to their available opposition numbers. This is especially true for those who primarily fight on the "front lines" alongside their own faction.

Grouping and ball grouping has had a number of challenges in the past but the last few updates have been making it easier and easier to do so. Basically since the start of Elsweyr.

That being said the main reason why groups are so strong these days is that there are fewer and fewer groups to actually counter them. It used to be that all factions had 2-3 groups running in prime time which were capable of countering each other (provided one side or the other had faction support in some circumstances) and at least 1 or 2 "zerg groups" who could also counter a ball group and provide the main "target" for them to focus. Now the server populations and faction locking have adjusted the dynamics (at least on PC NA and EU CP) to where the majority of fights occur at 2 locations on the map and their aren't really any groups which can counter others. Ball groups end up fighting pugs for 90% of their evening, which puts them at a huge advantage as they were designed for vs at least semi coordinated large amounts of players.

Danksta · March 2020

Bombers are a thing...

ZonasArch · March 2020

KappaKid83 wrote: »

Fengrush has really been vocal about this for a while but a great idea, and his idea, is to limit group sizes to 12, makes skills only work within the group and it should really help server load. This does put a damper on being able to just run solo and spam mutagen or just heal for AP grinding but it helps the server a lot and would do a lot for the performance.

Edit: I did not see that Fengrush had commented on this thread already, but yeah, his ideas are really good.

Funny how he's the one running around with his cult, trying to reduce the chances of people fighting back... Makes sense, I guess. 😂

technohic · March 2020

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Karm1cOne wrote: »

A lot of people here seem to have terminology that doesn't match. My understanding is thus:

A ball group is a 15-24 man group, usually with set composition of healers, support and dps.

A zerg is usually 15+ people grouped without set composition.

A faction stack is 40+ players of multiple groups and solo who run to objectives together.

As I see it, only the last group caused massive disconnects and skills not firing. Although additional laggyness occurs weekends/primetime with all groupings.

The term ball group/bomb group is actually quite outdated with the current meta but it refers to a playstyle rather than a group size.
Originally the design was to take out the maximum number of players with the minimum number of people in a self contained way (without external support from their faction).
For example this is currently around 8-10 (comfortably) but ranging from between 6-12 as a rough guide.

Anything that simply seeks to overwhelm enemy forces with numbers is a zerg.
For example a 'ball group' can zerg their opponents - for example when groups fight a small amount of pugs or even equal numbers of unorganised players.

With how the game is these days most groups of 15+ will generally be "zerging" due to their available opposition numbers. This is especially true for those who primarily fight on the "front lines" alongside their own faction.

Grouping and ball grouping has had a number of challenges in the past but the last few updates have been making it easier and easier to do so. Basically since the start of Elsweyr.

That being said the main reason why groups are so strong these days is that there are fewer and fewer groups to actually counter them. It used to be that all factions had 2-3 groups running in prime time which were capable of countering each other (provided one side or the other had faction support in some circumstances) and at least 1 or 2 "zerg groups" who could also counter a ball group and provide the main "target" for them to focus. Now the server populations and faction locking have adjusted the dynamics (at least on PC NA and EU CP) to where the majority of fights occur at 2 locations on the map and their aren't really any groups which can counter others. Ball groups end up fighting pugs for 90% of their evening, which puts them at a huge advantage as they were designed for vs at least semi coordinated large amounts of players.

I have guessed from my point of view, some of them went EP on PCNA to avoid Drac because they really just want to farm PUGs.

FierceSam · March 2020

KappaKid83 wrote: »

Fengrush has really been vocal about this for a while but a great idea, and his idea, is to limit group sizes to 12, makes skills only work within the group and it should really help server load. This does put a damper on being able to just run solo and spam mutagen or just heal for AP grinding but it helps the server a lot and would do a lot for the performance.

Edit: I did not see that Fengrush had commented on this thread already, but yeah, his ideas are really good.

Which would appear to massively boost organised 12 player groups to the extreme disadvantage of less experienced players simply zerging together. The organised groups should already have the benefit of greater coordination and (one assumes) integrated skills which should allow them to defeat more chaotic larger zergs.

Additionally it would provide no benefit for groups above 12, which then makes it harder to take down other 12 player groups and you’re essentially back where you started only with smaller groups.

I’m not sure what is inherently bad about a player getting AP for healing others. It’s one of the key ways in which healer characters can actually impact a fight and seems every bit as valid as a dd spamming an attack skill.

Sandman929 · March 2020

FierceSam wrote: »

KappaKid83 wrote: »

Fengrush has really been vocal about this for a while but a great idea, and his idea, is to limit group sizes to 12, makes skills only work within the group and it should really help server load. This does put a damper on being able to just run solo and spam mutagen or just heal for AP grinding but it helps the server a lot and would do a lot for the performance.

Edit: I did not see that Fengrush had commented on this thread already, but yeah, his ideas are really good.

Which would appear to massively boost organised 12 player groups to the extreme disadvantage of less experienced players simply zerging together. The organised groups should already have the benefit of greater coordination and (one assumes) integrated skills which should allow them to defeat more chaotic larger zergs.

Additionally it would provide no benefit for groups above 12, which then makes it harder to take down other 12 player groups and you’re essentially back where you started only with smaller groups.

I’m not sure what is inherently bad about a player getting AP for healing others. It’s one of the key ways in which healer characters can actually impact a fight and seems every bit as valid as a dd spamming an attack skill.

I don't think there's anything bad about zerg surfing/healing, aside from the effect on performance when dozens are doing that. AoE healing has to be calculated on every player in the zerg. It won't completely solve server issues, but it's a better start than the completely ineffective performance improvements thus far. So, IMO, I'd rather give up the freedom of ungrouped zerg healing for better performance.

BXR_Lonestar · March 2020

No.

Cyrodil is an area intended for big-group battles. Ball groups and large-scale engagements SHOULD be expected. If it is causing issues with Zos' servers, then they need to upgrade their servers/engine to handle the load caused by the large scale battles.

Without changing any core gameplay in Cyro, they could easily eliminate things to help improve server performance, such as farming nodes, random animals that nobody fights, getting rid non-combat related quests/npcs, all of which have to be loaded in and which almost nobody actually interacts with. From there, they can look at trying to upgrade their servers and engine to improve performance.

But doing something about ball-groups in the big-battles game mode just does not make sense. If you want small scale battles, play BG's or duels.

KappaKid83 · March 2020

ZonasArch wrote: »

KappaKid83 wrote: »

Fengrush has really been vocal about this for a while but a great idea, and his idea, is to limit group sizes to 12, makes skills only work within the group and it should really help server load. This does put a damper on being able to just run solo and spam mutagen or just heal for AP grinding but it helps the server a lot and would do a lot for the performance.

Edit: I did not see that Fengrush had commented on this thread already, but yeah, his ideas are really good.

Funny how he's the one running around with his cult, trying to reduce the chances of people fighting back... Makes sense, I guess. 😂

If you watch the stream he has anywhere from 8-15 in his group at any given time, generally that 8-12 range, but since he is the only largeish group running on DC during non peak hours so of course people follow them. Also, he's Fengrush, people will always just follow him and/or his group because of who he is.

KappaKid83 · March 2020

FierceSam wrote: »

KappaKid83 wrote: »

Fengrush has really been vocal about this for a while but a great idea, and his idea, is to limit group sizes to 12, makes skills only work within the group and it should really help server load. This does put a damper on being able to just run solo and spam mutagen or just heal for AP grinding but it helps the server a lot and would do a lot for the performance.

Edit: I did not see that Fengrush had commented on this thread already, but yeah, his ideas are really good.

Which would appear to massively boost organised 12 player groups to the extreme disadvantage of less experienced players simply zerging together. The organised groups should already have the benefit of greater coordination and (one assumes) integrated skills which should allow them to defeat more chaotic larger zergs.

Additionally it would provide no benefit for groups above 12, which then makes it harder to take down other 12 player groups and you’re essentially back where you started only with smaller groups.

I’m not sure what is inherently bad about a player getting AP for healing others. It’s one of the key ways in which healer characters can actually impact a fight and seems every bit as valid as a dd spamming an attack skill.

Hey Sam, I actually don't disagree it would be at a disadvantage to solo players healing for others and the way to balance all of this out is a whole can of worms that is not going to be easy to do, if at all. Those were just thoughts on how to help out lag/performance. Realistically there is nothing they can do with the game in its' current state on the current engine without a complete rewrite.

wolfie1.0. · March 2020

Wait, I'm confused there is PVP in this game?

LonePirate · March 2020

Hmmm... should ZOS do more than give people skills like Time Stop, Negate, Prox Det and the various AOE Stuns in addition to siege weapons to stop these groups? What other tools do you need in your arsenal?

TheRealCherokeee3 · March 2020

First, I hate ball group 1-2 hour running around a resource tower battles too lol. But like most others said, ball groups are a part of PvP and have been for ages. I don't mind the play style. In fact I don't mind most any play style. What I've minded for a long while now is the power creep that causes these play styles to be exploited and all too much the norm. At this point, it's always an eyeroll in our group followed by a "wait don't tell me, they're gonna run into that tower and prepare the ball" when we approach an enemy group at a resource. And sure enough they do it. Sometimes we just flip flag and leave. You can literally see the group in there all dressed up and buffed saying...buh..buh..your supposed to come in so we can ball group you down! lol. Out of most other issues in terms of gameplay, I'd much rather see ZOS finally address the power creep. If they give heavy armor pimp dps plus mitigation, then why wouldn't we have a server running around in all heavy? AKA the heavy meta we've faced for a while now. I've said it in another post elsewhere, but a loooong while back I remember being a sorc and hitting hard on a tank that hit like a noodle but mitigated my damage well. It felt...balanced dare I say? But....I get it, its pvp everyone wants to kill. So having classes/setups that are more so relegated to utility arent as sexy. You cant spam 1v1 me bro to your nemesis as easily in such a setup. I could again be simplifying the situation and missing the boat on things but in my own experience over the years and seeing the changes, this seems most likely where the cancerous situations complained about in PvP were born from.

Side note: pretty cool though in PvE!

People are hammering skeletons like mad and doing hardmodes pretty swiftly!

Karm1cOne · March 2020

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Karm1cOne wrote: »

A lot of people here seem to have terminology that doesn't match. My understanding is thus:

A ball group is a 15-24 man group, usually with set composition of healers, support and dps.

A zerg is usually 15+ people grouped without set composition.

A faction stack is 40+ players of multiple groups and solo who run to objectives together.

As I see it, only the last group caused massive disconnects and skills not firing. Although additional laggyness occurs weekends/primetime with all groupings.

The term ball group/bomb group is actually quite outdated with the current meta but it refers to a playstyle rather than a group size.
Originally the design was to take out the maximum number of players with the minimum number of people in a self contained way (without external support from their faction).
For example this is currently around 8-10 (comfortably) but ranging from between 6-12 as a rough guide.

Anything that simply seeks to overwhelm enemy forces with numbers is a zerg.
For example a 'ball group' can zerg their opponents - for example when groups fight a small amount of pugs or even equal numbers of unorganised players.

With how the game is these days most groups of 15+ will generally be "zerging" due to their available opposition numbers. This is especially true for those who primarily fight on the "front lines" alongside their own faction.

Grouping and ball grouping has had a number of challenges in the past but the last few updates have been making it easier and easier to do so. Basically since the start of Elsweyr.

That being said the main reason why groups are so strong these days is that there are fewer and fewer groups to actually counter them. It used to be that all factions had 2-3 groups running in prime time which were capable of countering each other (provided one side or the other had faction support in some circumstances) and at least 1 or 2 "zerg groups" who could also counter a ball group and provide the main "target" for them to focus. Now the server populations and faction locking have adjusted the dynamics (at least on PC NA and EU CP) to where the majority of fights occur at 2 locations on the map and their aren't really any groups which can counter others. Ball groups end up fighting pugs for 90% of their evening, which puts them at a huge advantage as they were designed for vs at least semi coordinated large amounts of players.

I dont think the definitions you or I supplied are that different. There are others here complainingthat ball groups are causing massive lag in and of themselves. I personally feel that the occurance of 50+ players at any objective is the major cause of lag, not groups in the sub 20 player range, irregardless of if they are a "zerg" or "ballgroup".

WilliamESO · March 2020

Ball groups can't do nothing if you use the immobilize morph of scatter shot then fear then ulti then roll with shuffle cutanim as an example then immobilize again then attack then fear then execute then scatter immobilize morph...
All balls groups run or die when they see me and then i got lots of hates whispers or mails like you are the most aids in the World.wtb mass report with my guild,i will cut your throat... People are crazy # i see low IQs everywhere

Qbiken · March 2020

FierceSam wrote: »

KappaKid83 wrote: »

Fengrush has really been vocal about this for a while but a great idea, and his idea, is to limit group sizes to 12, makes skills only work within the group and it should really help server load. This does put a damper on being able to just run solo and spam mutagen or just heal for AP grinding but it helps the server a lot and would do a lot for the performance.

Edit: I did not see that Fengrush had commented on this thread already, but yeah, his ideas are really good.

Which would appear to massively boost organised 12 player groups to the extreme disadvantage of less experienced players simply zerging together. The organised groups should already have the benefit of greater coordination and (one assumes) integrated skills which should allow them to defeat more chaotic larger zergs.

Additionally it would provide no benefit for groups above 12, which then makes it harder to take down other 12 player groups and you’re essentially back where you started only with smaller groups.

I’m not sure what is inherently bad about a player getting AP for healing others. It’s one of the key ways in which healer characters can actually impact a fight and seems every bit as valid as a dd spamming an attack skill.

Such a change would promote people to group up and play more organized rather than just writing + in zone chat and zerg surf. For me that's a win-win

WilliamESO · March 2020

They can have 500 Mil views on their YT Channel the party is over when I am in the place and they get mad because they thought they were good doing 30k views per videos don't mean nothing you wil die or run like everyone when I am here

Kadoin · March 2020

technohic wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Karm1cOne wrote: »

A lot of people here seem to have terminology that doesn't match. My understanding is thus:

A ball group is a 15-24 man group, usually with set composition of healers, support and dps.

A zerg is usually 15+ people grouped without set composition.

A faction stack is 40+ players of multiple groups and solo who run to objectives together.

As I see it, only the last group caused massive disconnects and skills not firing. Although additional laggyness occurs weekends/primetime with all groupings.

The term ball group/bomb group is actually quite outdated with the current meta but it refers to a playstyle rather than a group size.
Originally the design was to take out the maximum number of players with the minimum number of people in a self contained way (without external support from their faction).
For example this is currently around 8-10 (comfortably) but ranging from between 6-12 as a rough guide.

Anything that simply seeks to overwhelm enemy forces with numbers is a zerg.
For example a 'ball group' can zerg their opponents - for example when groups fight a small amount of pugs or even equal numbers of unorganised players.

With how the game is these days most groups of 15+ will generally be "zerging" due to their available opposition numbers. This is especially true for those who primarily fight on the "front lines" alongside their own faction.

Grouping and ball grouping has had a number of challenges in the past but the last few updates have been making it easier and easier to do so. Basically since the start of Elsweyr.

That being said the main reason why groups are so strong these days is that there are fewer and fewer groups to actually counter them. It used to be that all factions had 2-3 groups running in prime time which were capable of countering each other (provided one side or the other had faction support in some circumstances) and at least 1 or 2 "zerg groups" who could also counter a ball group and provide the main "target" for them to focus. Now the server populations and faction locking have adjusted the dynamics (at least on PC NA and EU CP) to where the majority of fights occur at 2 locations on the map and their aren't really any groups which can counter others. Ball groups end up fighting pugs for 90% of their evening, which puts them at a huge advantage as they were designed for vs at least semi coordinated large amounts of players.

I have guessed from my point of view, some of them went EP on PCNA to avoid Drac because they really just want to farm PUGs.

Well it kind of gets boring playing the same alliance and same characters. The players that swap around were the ones that were multi-faction and swapped around before anyway. Ultimately all the lock has accomplished is ensure those player stay in one place, and where they nest is who will win the campaign that cycle...

Iskiab · March 2020

KappaKid83 wrote: »

Fengrush has really been vocal about this for a while but a great idea, and his idea, is to limit group sizes to 12, makes skills only work within the group and it should really help server load. This does put a damper on being able to just run solo and spam mutagen or just heal for AP grinding but it helps the server a lot and would do a lot for the performance.

Edit: I did not see that Fengrush had commented on this thread already, but yeah, his ideas are really good.

Yea, that’s not a bad idea. It would reduce the effect of magicka support sets and make stamina more desirable.

Sandman929 · March 2020

WilliamESO wrote: »

Ball groups can't do nothing if you use the immobilize morph of scatter shot then fear then ulti then roll with shuffle cutanim as an example then immobilize again then attack then fear then execute then scatter immobilize morph...
All balls groups run or die when they see me and then i got lots of hates whispers or mails like you are the most aids in the World.wtb mass report with my guild,i will cut your throat... People are crazy # i see low IQs everywhere

This guy is a god amongst men...stay away Dracarys.

Beardimus · March 2020

Reyleigh wrote: »

A certain faction in no cp has 3 ballzergs, making the game an absolute unplayable garbage when facing them, but it seems they're not affected by it or at least not as much as their opponents
Should this be adressed ?
I know there's a boatload of things that should be adressed right now, but still wth ?

Yep, they don't help lag.

Just buff Detonation and that will soon sort them out.

Xandreia_ · March 2020

Beardimus wrote: »

Yep, they don't help lag.

Just buff Detonation and that will soon sort them out. [/quote]

What about the faction stacked zergs that chase ball groups? They're fine?

Sandman929 · March 2020

Xandreia_ wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

Yep, they don't help lag.

Just buff Detonation and that will soon sort them out.

What about the faction stacked zergs that chase ball groups? They're fine?
[/quote]

That's the part I've never understood when people complain about ball groups. It's another way of stating that people in a zerg don't want to lose to coordination.

Mayrael · March 2020

Ummm hell no, although I don't like them I respect their right to play like this. It's AvAvA zone, it's meant to be played by such groups. What we should demand is freaking fix, that would finally resolve this serious issue.