Heavy armor needs to have a speed debuff and a regen debuff.

Shadowasrial · March 2020

Heavy armor by nature is HEAVY it is a physically demanding action to wear. It makes no sense that heavy armor wearers should be running around as fast as medium and light users. But thanks to some passives and active skills they can still move around at full speed. Also heavy armor should slow your attacks. Adding a half second cast time to all skills.

Stamina recovery shouldn’t even be a thing in heavy armor. As well as magic recovery. Applying these changes would greatly balance the use of heavy armor

Thokri · March 2020

In that logic people wearing light and most medium armors should also be crushed and sliced by almost all attacks.

It is purely for gameplay reasons why there is no logic, no one wants tank in dungeon that you have to wait hour.

[Edit to remove flame]

Arunei · March 2020

Okay but if Heavy Armor means no mag or stam recovery then how is a person using it supposed to do anything once their resources run out? They literally become useless and a hindrance to the group, especially because Heavy Armor is usually a tank thing, and tanks block a lot...which takes stamina. Using pots isn't a viable answer because there's a cooldown that lasts far longer than the time it takes to burn through the amount of mag/stam you get back, and someone in the group spamming Shards and/or Orbs isn't a viable answer because then they literally have their main job hampered by constantly having to keep another party member with a useable amount of resources.

Shadowasrial · March 2020

Thokri wrote: »

In that logic people wearing light and most medium armors should also be crushed and sliced by almost all attacks.

It is purely for gameplay reasons why there is no logic, no one wants tank in dungeon that you have to wait hour.

medium and light armors DO take a crap ton more damage by all attacks it’s why heavy armor gives such defensive bonus. And I hate to break it to you but the speed debuff would only be in effect in combat or sprinting and it makes sense.
You won’t be waiting an hour for the tank your just being overly dramatic. The truth of the matter is there is no downsides to running heavy over the other options yet compared to heavy there are no upsides to running light or medium

[Edit to remove flame]

TheFM · March 2020

It already has a debuff to speed and regen. As in, the other armors have buffs to speed and cost reduction to sprinting. And they have regen bonuses, which heavy does not.

Shadowasrial · March 2020

Arunei wrote: »

Okay but if Heavy Armor means no mag or stam recovery then how is a person using it supposed to do anything once their resources run out? They literally become useless and a hindrance to the group, especially because Heavy Armor is usually a tank thing, and tanks block a lot...which takes stamina. Using pots isn't a viable answer because there's a cooldown that lasts far longer than the time it takes to burn through the amount of mag/stam you get back, and someone in the group spamming Shards and/or Orbs isn't a viable answer because then they literally have their main job hampered by constantly having to keep another party member with a useable amount of resources.

But you are forgetting one of the key components of being a tank and that’s sword and board and block in general. Tanks have such block cost mitigation that many are even able to create permablock builds. When you run out of resources that’s exactly what’s supposed to happen to you. Your supposed to be exposed and useless until you get your resources back up. Remember I’m not saying that tanks should have negative recovery I’m saying there should be a debuff to their stat so that their recovery is much lower than that of light or medium. They will still have recovery but it will take them much longer to get back to full stam. In pvp I see tanks every day able to block the damage of 5-10 players indefinitely and in some cases even kill a couple of those players with overpowered class ultimates like permafrost or Goliath or dragon leap. If you are a tank then you should be a tank and not a damage dealer. And since they can’t debuff attacks without hurting everyone it makes sense to add debuffs to armor to compensate

Shadowasrial · March 2020

TheFM wrote: »

It already has a debuff to speed and regen. As in, the other armors have buffs to speed and cost reduction to sprinting. And they have regen bonuses, which heavy does not.

Again you are wrong. They don’t have debuffs at all. The lack of a speed buff is not a debuff. These heavy armor wearers use other skills like race against time, rapids ,etc to compensate for not being as fast as the other classes and and yet when medium or light uses these same skills it doesn’t make them any faster. They have reduced the speed buff cap so low that it’s very easy to get to it with 1-2 buffs

DreadDaedroth · March 2020

Thanks for thinking about PvE tanks.

TheFM · March 2020

Shadowasrial wrote: »

TheFM wrote: »

It already has a debuff to speed and regen. As in, the other armors have buffs to speed and cost reduction to sprinting. And they have regen bonuses, which heavy does not.

Again you are wrong. They don’t have debuffs at all. The lack of a speed buff is not a debuff. These heavy armor wearers use other skills like race against time, rapids ,etc to compensate for not being as fast as the other classes and and yet when medium or light uses these same skills it doesn’t make them any faster. They have reduced the speed buff cap so low that it’s very easy to get to it with 1-2 buffs

Race against time has nothing to do with the heavy passives. Thats something completely different. And even with that, light and medium have cost reduction on sprinting, light has snare reduction, and medium has roll cost reduction.

Arunei · March 2020

Shadowasrial wrote: »

But you are forgetting one of the key components of being a tank and that’s sword and board and block in general. Tanks have such block cost mitigation that many are even able to create permablock builds. When you run out of resources that’s exactly what’s supposed to happen to you. Your supposed to be exposed and useless until you get your resources back up. Remember I’m not saying that tanks should have negative recovery I’m saying there should be a debuff to their stat so that their recovery is much lower than that of light or medium. They will still have recovery but it will take them much longer to get back to full stam. In pvp I see tanks every day able to block the damage of 5-10 players indefinitely and in some cases even kill a couple of those players with overpowered class ultimates like permafrost or Goliath or dragon leap. If you are a tank then you should be a tank and not a damage dealer. And since they can’t debuff attacks without hurting everyone it makes sense to add debuffs to armor to compensate

This only takes into account blocking for PvP, and you're forgetting that you can't regen stam while blocking anymore. And no permablock build is viable in PvE when controlling the mobs and buffing your allies/debuffing the enemies take both Mag and Stam in most cases.

You also only said "regen shouldn't even be a thing in heavy" which is *very* different than "their recovery should be super low".

Also I wouldn't say that you're supposed to be entirely useless and incapable of doing something once you run out of resources. If that was the case I don't think regen would exist to begin with. And how are you supposed to get resources back with little to no regen ability, when other methods of getting resources back won't be enough for you to actually keep doing things? Like I mentioned pots are unreliable, even with the passives that make them last longer and even with enchants to decrease the timer on them (does anyone even use those?). I think the most you can decrease the timer to is...20-some seconds? And most potions will only give you back like 7-8k resources, there's no way to actually make that last for that long when you're actually moving around doing things. Relying on Shards and Orbs from others is unreliable because you're going to be competing with other people rushing them in both PvP and PvE, and that's assuming someone around you or in your party even has them. And relying on Synergies that restore resources are unreliable because they rarely restore a sizable amount.

There are other ways you could balance HA without literally making it so borked that people stop using it entirely. Reducing movement speed could work, or maybe reworking the Light and Medium passives to make them more appealing. But there's also the fact that regardless of what ZOS does for balance, people will enjoy running the kind of builds they enjoy running, even if they're super annoying ones, and they'll generally find a way to run said builds one way or the other.

Fur_like_snow · March 2020

In game this is represented by LA and MA having passives that directly tie into movement speed and cost reduction. On my MA Orc stamsorc I can outpace 90% of Cyrodiil. But that doesn’t mean that someone in HA couldn’t invest into speed and keep up. IMO that is one of the strong points of ESO character building is that you’re generally not hard limited by things like armor weight.

Urzigurumash · March 2020

Why don't you just try wearing Heavy Armor on your StamNB?

I die to snipers all the time. Maybe stealth just doesn't fit you anymore?

KaraBela94 · March 2020

Seems like someone didnt played the REAL HEAVY ARMOR Meta...back in the Days with build in Fury 5. Piece Bonus and black rose...dude really...heavy armor is garbage compared to those days.

If you really think its still a thing and cry for nerfs...well...nothing to say.

EXCEPT

Its more a L2P issue

Urzigurumash · March 2020

Look OP, we all know the reality. It's StamDK's time in the sun, and StamNB's years of 1v1 dominance are seeing their punishment. So the class best known for heavy armor offense is doing great, the class best known for medium armor offense is not. Somehow I don't think deleting heavy armor will make everything ok for everybody. We will just be back to nerf StamNB threads.

Snipe spamming is effective, in any setting. I would occupy yourself with that for the time being.

Ratzkifal · March 2020

Okay, @Shadowasrial since you seem to be arguing from a perspective of realism, heavy armor should indeed give a penalty on stamina costs all around (we don't know how it affects magicka as there is no sufficient internal explanation around).

However, since we are already arguing from a perspective of realism, Heavy armor should also make you immune to most physical damage dealt to you by other players. Only grappling and crits (aka aiming for the gaps) should work. Plate armor makes you almost invincible in a real medival combat scenario. The only thing that goes through that is warhammers, battle-axes and greatswords if you strike with the guard. The only thing cloth actually protects you against is cutting attacks but since everyone on the battlefield will have warhammers, battle-axes and spears, you would not dare to go into battle in light or medium armor unless you are an archer and even then you should still wear chainmail so you at least have something against cutting and piercing attacks.

So in essence if we introduce more realism, Heavy armor will not become weaker but instead dominate even more because it was just that powerful historically.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzTwBQniLSc

MusCanus · March 2020

Whatever problems you have OP, it's not because of heavy armor itself. I bet often when you're thinking someone is wearing heavy, given how tanky they seem, they're actually not. It's just healing is over the top for a lot of classes. Except NBs, lol.

Urzigurumash · March 2020

And if we're going with logic, shouldn't Executioner and Onslaught hit harder in Heavy than in Medium? If Momentum = Mass x Velocity, all of the Velocity in those attacks are coming after the weapon is lifted to its apex, right? So the heavier the armor on the arm swinging the weapon, the greater the momentum, right?

Conversely, Dizzying Swing should probably hit harder in Medium than in Heavy, but it does currently.

Urzigurumash · March 2020

MusCanus wrote: »

Whatever problems you have OP, it's not because of heavy armor itself. I bet often when you're thinking someone is wearing heavy, given how tanky they seem, they're actually not. It's just healing is over the top for a lot of classes. Except NBs, lol.

Why is it in the calls to nerf heavy armor nobody mentions Undeath? "most people are in favor of brevity, as long as it's someone else's"

Abyssmol · March 2020

Shadowasrial wrote: »

Heavy armor by nature is HEAVY it is a physically demanding action to wear. It makes no sense that heavy armor wearers should be running around as fast as medium and light users. But thanks to some passives and active skills they can still move around at full speed. Also heavy armor should slow your attacks. Adding a half second cast time to all skills.

Stamina recovery shouldn’t even be a thing in heavy armor. As well as magic recovery. Applying these changes would greatly balance the use of heavy armor

By your logic - light armor should let your character move faster than medium. Also since light armor is for magicka, all heals should be stronger than medium... right!?

Urzigurumash · March 2020

Abyssmol wrote: »

light armor should led your character move faster than medium.

Light armor should have a percentile chance of making you trip over your robes while sprinting, resulting in a self-stun and immobilization. Each attempt at breaking free should confer an additional chance of extending this immobilization as you get twisted and mixed up in your flowing robes

MusCanus · March 2020

Urzigurumash wrote: »

MusCanus wrote: »

Whatever problems you have OP, it's not because of heavy armor itself. I bet often when you're thinking someone is wearing heavy, given how tanky they seem, they're actually not. It's just healing is over the top for a lot of classes. Except NBs, lol.

Why is it in the calls to nerf heavy armor nobody mentions Undeath? "most people are in favor of brevity, as long as it's someone else's"

And how Undeath contradicts what I've written?

Urzigurumash · March 2020

MusCanus wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

MusCanus wrote: »

Whatever problems you have OP, it's not because of heavy armor itself. I bet often when you're thinking someone is wearing heavy, given how tanky they seem, they're actually not. It's just healing is over the top for a lot of classes. Except NBs, lol.

Why is it in the calls to nerf heavy armor nobody mentions Undeath? "most people are in favor of brevity, as long as it's someone else's"

And how Undeath contradicts what I've written?

I wasn't contradicting, adding to your argument, that there are additional measures of defense beyond heavy armor that probably account for a good number of events when your target just wouldn't die

I also assume Heavy Armor players are proportionally less likely to be a Vampire, as those passives have a more desirable effect in Medium and Light, and the HP Regen debuff is undesirable in Heavy

MusCanus · March 2020

Urzigurumash wrote: »

MusCanus wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

MusCanus wrote: »

Whatever problems you have OP, it's not because of heavy armor itself. I bet often when you're thinking someone is wearing heavy, given how tanky they seem, they're actually not. It's just healing is over the top for a lot of classes. Except NBs, lol.

Why is it in the calls to nerf heavy armor nobody mentions Undeath? "most people are in favor of brevity, as long as it's someone else's"

And how Undeath contradicts what I've written?

I wasn't contradicting, adding to your argument, that there are additional measures of defense beyond heavy armor that probably account for a good number of events when your target just wouldn't die

Oh, ok, didn't quite get it

Urzigurumash wrote: »

I also assume Heavy Armor players are proportionally less likely to be a Vampire, as those passives have a more desirable effect in Medium and Light, and the HP Regen debuff is undesirable in Heavy

Yes, actually all sorts of % mitigation (protection, potentates set, etc) have greater effect in medium and light.

StormeReigns · March 2020

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Abyssmol wrote: »

light armor should led your character move faster than medium.

Light armor should have a percentile chance of making you trip over your robes while sprinting, resulting in a self-stun and immobilization. Each attempt at breaking free should confer an additional chance of extending this immobilization as you get twisted and mixed up in your flowing robes

Not all light armor are robes and not all robes are light armor though.

Also, wearing heavy / medium armor in hot / humid regions should burn stamina at 35% every 0.08 seconds to keep your character from suffering from heat exhaustion - and in full heavy, heat stroke when you run out of stamina or drop lower than 75%, 86% health is drained every 0.003 seconds until death.

Light and Heavy in cold region should burn 25% stamina every 0.005 seconds to allow character to not suffer from flash freezes and hypothermia - when you run out of stamina or drop lower than 75%, 86% health is drained every 0.003 seconds until death.

Royaji · March 2020

Sure thing. As soon as there is an appropriate "drawback" to both light and medium too.

Carespanker · March 2020

Im all for being a slow thicc bastion of metal but taking away a man's recovery in a game full of magical performance-enhancing drugs/enchants is not cool bro.

MusCanus · March 2020

StormeReigns wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Abyssmol wrote: »

light armor should led your character move faster than medium.

Light armor should have a percentile chance of making you trip over your robes while sprinting, resulting in a self-stun and immobilization. Each attempt at breaking free should confer an additional chance of extending this immobilization as you get twisted and mixed up in your flowing robes

Not all light armor are robes and not all robes are light armor though.

Also, wearing heavy / medium armor in hot / humid regions should burn stamina at 35% every 0.08 seconds to keep your character from suffering from heat exhaustion - and in full heavy, heat stroke when you run out of stamina or drop lower than 75%, 86% health is drained every 0.003 seconds until death.

Light and Heavy in cold region should burn 25% stamina every 0.005 seconds to allow character to not suffer from flash freezes and hypothermia - when you run out of stamina or drop lower than 75%, 86% health is drained every 0.003 seconds until death.

Well, if we're into crazy ideas now, what about lightning/shock damage? Should be higher on someone in heavy, metal is a good conductor of electricity.

Urzigurumash · March 2020

StormeReigns wrote: »

Light and Heavy in cold region should burn 25% stamina every 0.005 seconds to allow character to not suffer from flash freezes and hypothermia - when you run out of stamina or drop lower than 75%, 86% health is drained every 0.003 seconds until death.

I disagree quite strongly. Light armor will trap more warm air against the body than heavy or medium, if anything there should be a buff to stam regen when wearing light armor in cold environments

StormeReigns · March 2020

MusCanus wrote: »

StormeReigns wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Abyssmol wrote: »

light armor should led your character move faster than medium.

Light armor should have a percentile chance of making you trip over your robes while sprinting, resulting in a self-stun and immobilization. Each attempt at breaking free should confer an additional chance of extending this immobilization as you get twisted and mixed up in your flowing robes

Not all light armor are robes and not all robes are light armor though.

Also, wearing heavy / medium armor in hot / humid regions should burn stamina at 35% every 0.08 seconds to keep your character from suffering from heat exhaustion - and in full heavy, heat stroke when you run out of stamina or drop lower than 75%, 86% health is drained every 0.003 seconds until death.

Light and Heavy in cold region should burn 25% stamina every 0.005 seconds to allow character to not suffer from flash freezes and hypothermia - when you run out of stamina or drop lower than 75%, 86% health is drained every 0.003 seconds until death.

Well, if we're into crazy ideas now, what about lightning/shock damage? Should be higher on someone in heavy, metal is a good conductor of electricity.

Oooh! More so on the metal type for the armor, like iron and steel giving like a 15%
As well Light and Medium when hit with fire, melting / fusing with the body causing a Dot and slows movement.

Urzigurumash wrote: »

StormeReigns wrote: »

Light and Heavy in cold region should burn 25% stamina every 0.005 seconds to allow character to not suffer from flash freezes and hypothermia - when you run out of stamina or drop lower than 75%, 86% health is drained every 0.003 seconds until death.

I disagree quite strongly. Light armor will trap more warm air against the body than heavy or medium, if anything there should be a buff to stam regen when wearing light armor in cold environments

Sure, go wear some light slacks and standard polo top outside no coat in a Minnesota winter with an average -20 to -40 wind chill. see how much of that benefical heat you retain.

idk · March 2020

OP seems to miss that Heavy armor does more slower than medium when sprinting and a higher cost to roll dodge than medium armor. Heavy armor also moves slower than light armor when snares are applied and has a higher cost to sprint.

Lets now forget that both Medium and heavy armor has increased regen as well as cost reduction on the use of their respective skill types.

So the game has dealt with the differences between heavy armor and the other armors in its own way. OP conveniently ignores all this in their OP as it is inconvenient. This is a fantasy game. As such it should ignore some physics of the real world and each fantasy game determines how to deal with the differences of armor their own way. In other words, Zos would do well passing up this thread as they should not attempt the impossible feat of making everyone happy.

Agenericname · March 2020

MusCanus wrote: »

StormeReigns wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Abyssmol wrote: »

light armor should led your character move faster than medium.

Light armor should have a percentile chance of making you trip over your robes while sprinting, resulting in a self-stun and immobilization. Each attempt at breaking free should confer an additional chance of extending this immobilization as you get twisted and mixed up in your flowing robes

Not all light armor are robes and not all robes are light armor though.

Also, wearing heavy / medium armor in hot / humid regions should burn stamina at 35% every 0.08 seconds to keep your character from suffering from heat exhaustion - and in full heavy, heat stroke when you run out of stamina or drop lower than 75%, 86% health is drained every 0.003 seconds until death.

Light and Heavy in cold region should burn 25% stamina every 0.005 seconds to allow character to not suffer from flash freezes and hypothermia - when you run out of stamina or drop lower than 75%, 86% health is drained every 0.003 seconds until death.

Well, if we're into crazy ideas now, what about lightning/shock damage? Should be higher on someone in heavy, metal is a good conductor of electricity.

Assuming the entire set was metal, it would make a faraday cage.

But if we're going realism, wearing heavy armor IRL doesnt effect my magicka regen