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Combat changes are pretty good.
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Siohwenoeht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The devs need to come out and officially state that animation cancelling is not going anywhere.
The other threads have gone over why, multiple times, so I won't dive back into it.
The block changes did nothing to eliminate block cancelling by design, they tinkered with the animations and how the server and client interact with block. By all accounts it's now clunky as all get out. Can you imagine if offensive combat got the same treatment?
Tired of seeing these threads and the lack of understanding.
@ZOS_GinaBruno"It is a lovely language, but it takes a very long time saying anything in it, because we do not say anything in it, unless it is worth taking a long time to say, and to listen to." - Treebeard6 -
exeeter702✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭rager82b14_ESO wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »rager82b14_ESO wrote: »rager82b14_ESO wrote: »rager82b14_ESO wrote: »Now if you can do something about animation cancel, it will go a long ways.
The new block is already a start. I agree. Bet anim cancel is a huge part of the whole performance problem too.
no its not, a huge problem are the cyrodiil ball groups which spam a lot of AOEs/second the whole day,
which causes thousands of different calculations in only one group fight/second.
cyrodiil performance is directly related to the number of ball groups that are on the move at the same time.
who said anything about cyrodiil?
Do you have performance problems in pve?
Some areas in the world FPS would drop, but animation cancels looks bad, and is tedious. I just want it gone.
This game would be absolutely crap if you full removed it. Probably slower combat than GW2 which has cooldowns, or slower than WoW at that point. Waiting x seconds for a fancy useless animation to go off... lol.
I mean all that stuff could be balance out, but the combat is already crap in this game.Animation cancels is a glitch that improves it for some players, but that does not fix the problem. It needs to go, and make the combat a little bit faster/reaction base.
The fact that a glitch improves your combat, and they have not fixed it. That looks bad on the developers and the design of the game.
Animation canceling is not a glitch.
I mean you can say that, does not mean it is true. Wtf is the point of a animation if it can be cancel. That is some dumb logic, and from a game design point of view. It is crazy to think that people would design a game where you can bypass the animation.
You are confused it's that simple. What you just said here exemplifies it. What I have learned over the years desperately trying to help those not informed, understand what is happening in this games combat system and why animation canceling as a "thing" is purely a byproduct of other mechancism at play, is that they either have zero interest in the truth or they legitimately are failing to grasp critical elements that define and explain the systems at work. Instead they latch on to hyperbole and misguided rants and the issue on this subject continues to perpetuate itself when new players come in and are conditioned to believe the same.
I grow so tired of constantly posting fundamental explanations with as much clarity as I know how to deliver as to why animation canceling exists and how it is not an exploit nor a bug nor an accident. I break this down for people and it largely goes unheard or I get the occasional nods before the thread and comment gets buried, I try to post a new thread to help those who dont understand and it as well devolves by page 3 and it becomes a pissing contest all the same. Your kind dont want to understand, you believe you know what is happening and believe that the game would be better off.
It is not a bug
It is not a glitch
It is not an oversight
Eric wrobel words have been misconstrued and twisted and you all have ran with it ever since.Edited by exeeter702 on February 26, 2020 8:55PM15 -
L_Nici✭✭✭✭✭
✭I am so happy to see a pro post to the combat changes. All people do is complain and complain. And most of the complains are just straight up garbage, animation cancel still works like usual, you just need to adjust your timing a bit with certain abillities.
It looks so much smoother and feels so much better, especially with the end of random lag spikes, since the patch I didn't crash once, hadn't had any laggy fights its just all around a huge improvement.PC|EU9 -
JumpmanLane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I am so happy to see a pro post to the combat changes. All people do is complain and complain. And most of the complains are just straight up garbage, animation cancel still works like usual, you just need to adjust your timing a bit with certain abillities.
It looks so much smoother and feels so much better, especially with the end of random lag spikes, since the patch I didn't crash once, hadn't had any laggy fights its just all around a huge improvement.
You keep saying this stuff but I don’t believe it. EVERYONE but YOU is crashing in Cyro? Lol. I am. Folks in zone are. Streamers in their streams are.
Block sometimes doesn’t immediately go off in lagless PVE. Combat in PvE seems clunky, movement seems floaty. Leap is SLOW in lagless PvE. In PvP it seems like AGES before it goes off. NO the combat changes are NOT wonderful.
If you truly are not suffering any issues, GREAT. Your posts aren’t helping the issue for those that are experiencing issues. These changes are NOT great.Edited by JumpmanLane on February 26, 2020 11:10PM17 -
rager82b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭exeeter702 wrote: »rager82b14_ESO wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »rager82b14_ESO wrote: »rager82b14_ESO wrote: »rager82b14_ESO wrote: »Now if you can do something about animation cancel, it will go a long ways.
The new block is already a start. I agree. Bet anim cancel is a huge part of the whole performance problem too.
no its not, a huge problem are the cyrodiil ball groups which spam a lot of AOEs/second the whole day,
which causes thousands of different calculations in only one group fight/second.
cyrodiil performance is directly related to the number of ball groups that are on the move at the same time.
who said anything about cyrodiil?
Do you have performance problems in pve?
Some areas in the world FPS would drop, but animation cancels looks bad, and is tedious. I just want it gone.
This game would be absolutely crap if you full removed it. Probably slower combat than GW2 which has cooldowns, or slower than WoW at that point. Waiting x seconds for a fancy useless animation to go off... lol.
I mean all that stuff could be balance out, but the combat is already crap in this game.Animation cancels is a glitch that improves it for some players, but that does not fix the problem. It needs to go, and make the combat a little bit faster/reaction base.
The fact that a glitch improves your combat, and they have not fixed it. That looks bad on the developers and the design of the game.
Animation canceling is not a glitch.
I mean you can say that, does not mean it is true. Wtf is the point of a animation if it can be cancel. That is some dumb logic, and from a game design point of view. It is crazy to think that people would design a game where you can bypass the animation.
You are confused it's that simple. What you just said here exemplifies it. What I have learned over the years desperately trying to help those not informed, understand what is happening in this games combat system and why animation canceling as a "thing" is purely a byproduct of other mechancism at play, is that they either have zero interest in the truth or they legitimately are failing to grasp critical elements that define and explain the systems at work. Instead they latch on to hyperbole and misguided rants and the issue on this subject continues to perpetuate itself when new players come in and are conditioned to believe the same.
I grow so tired of constantly posting fundamental explanations with as much clarity as I know how to deliver as to why animation canceling exists and how it is not an exploit nor a bug nor an accident. I break this down for people and it largely goes unheard or I get the occasional nods before the thread and comment gets buried, I try to post a new thread to help those who dont understand and it as well devolves by page 3 and it becomes a pissing contest all the same. Your kind dont want to understand, you believe you know what is happening and believe that the game would be better off.
It is not a bug
It is not a glitch
It is not an oversight
Eric wrobel words have been misconstrued and twisted and you all have ran with it ever since.
I am the one confused? You just typed a whole bunch of nothing, that did not answer my question at all.
I never saw someone type so much nothing before.
From a pure gameplay point of view what type of developers would want a game design that the full swing does not go off. The fact they kept it in so long shows two things. I mean light attack cancel dodge roll cancel it just looks stupid, and is a dumb explot.
1) They are not skilled enough to fix said exploit.
2) The combat they design is so poorly done, that they need to glitch out animations just to make it reasonable.
Both answers looks poorly on them.
Light attacking weaving looks bad. It is poorly done and takes away the elder scrolls feel. It will get fixed one day, they just slow at doing it.
This is the first step to fixing a problem that needs to be done.Edited by rager82b14_ESO on February 26, 2020 10:09PM8 -
DukeDiewalker✭✭✭✭If block and block cancelling stays as it is right now, then ESO has no future. This is going in a direction far far away from the game we once loved.
Animation cancelling is and should forever be a major part of ESO and its highend PvP and PvE!
If you disagree with that, then you either chose the wrong game for yourself or you should simply not bother with competitive PvP or PvE and stick to things like questing or whatever you want to do and play your full animations like you want them to look. But don't try to drag the rest of the community into it!
Bring back proper block cancelling!14 -
Stebarnz✭✭✭✭✭
✭Anyone still asking for removal of A/C after 6 years needs to just stop and go play Final Fantasy or something, latest patch made combat clunky and slower with a crash every 10 mins, useless!15 -
YandereGirlfriend✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I like animation cancelling and think that it does increase the skill ceiling of the game.
That said, if it is indeed hard on the servers (e.g. desynchs, performance hits) then I would understand if it had to go.
However, you absolutely would need to replace it with something, else if ESO combat became "Press 5, 4, 2, 1, 1, 1" (where those are skills from your bar) every 1 second GCD, then combat truly would feel simplified, slow, and dumbed-down.
Perhaps if they cut the GCD period to 1/2 second and sped up all of the animations to match it then you could fit in roughly the same number of total actions and make combat feel more responsive to player inputs?
Then you could buff Light Attacks and/or alter their mechanics (e.g. LA gains Empower if used after an ability) to incentivize weaving rather than using LA simply for the cancelling.3 -
exeeter702✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭rager82b14_ESO wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »rager82b14_ESO wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »rager82b14_ESO wrote: »rager82b14_ESO wrote: »rager82b14_ESO wrote: »Now if you can do something about animation cancel, it will go a long ways.
The new block is already a start. I agree. Bet anim cancel is a huge part of the whole performance problem too.
no its not, a huge problem are the cyrodiil ball groups which spam a lot of AOEs/second the whole day,
which causes thousands of different calculations in only one group fight/second.
cyrodiil performance is directly related to the number of ball groups that are on the move at the same time.
who said anything about cyrodiil?
Do you have performance problems in pve?
Some areas in the world FPS would drop, but animation cancels looks bad, and is tedious. I just want it gone.
This game would be absolutely crap if you full removed it. Probably slower combat than GW2 which has cooldowns, or slower than WoW at that point. Waiting x seconds for a fancy useless animation to go off... lol.
I mean all that stuff could be balance out, but the combat is already crap in this game.Animation cancels is a glitch that improves it for some players, but that does not fix the problem. It needs to go, and make the combat a little bit faster/reaction base.
The fact that a glitch improves your combat, and they have not fixed it. That looks bad on the developers and the design of the game.
Animation canceling is not a glitch.
I mean you can say that, does not mean it is true. Wtf is the point of a animation if it can be cancel. That is some dumb logic, and from a game design point of view. It is crazy to think that people would design a game where you can bypass the animation.
You are confused it's that simple. What you just said here exemplifies it. What I have learned over the years desperately trying to help those not informed, understand what is happening in this games combat system and why animation canceling as a "thing" is purely a byproduct of other mechancism at play, is that they either have zero interest in the truth or they legitimately are failing to grasp critical elements that define and explain the systems at work. Instead they latch on to hyperbole and misguided rants and the issue on this subject continues to perpetuate itself when new players come in and are conditioned to believe the same.
I grow so tired of constantly posting fundamental explanations with as much clarity as I know how to deliver as to why animation canceling exists and how it is not an exploit nor a bug nor an accident. I break this down for people and it largely goes unheard or I get the occasional nods before the thread and comment gets buried, I try to post a new thread to help those who dont understand and it as well devolves by page 3 and it becomes a pissing contest all the same. Your kind dont want to understand, you believe you know what is happening and believe that the game would be better off.
It is not a bug
It is not a glitch
It is not an oversight
Eric wrobel words have been misconstrued and twisted and you all have ran with it ever since.
I am the one confused? You just typed a whole bunch of nothing, that did not answer my question at all.
I never saw someone type so much nothing before.
From a pure gameplay point of view what type of developers would want a game design that the full swing does not go off. The fact they kept it in so long shows two things. I mean light attack cancel dodge roll cancel it just looks stupid, and is a dumb explot.
1) They are not skilled enough to fix said exploit.
2) The combat they design is so poorly done, that they need to glitch out animations just to make it reasonable.
Both answers looks poorly on them.
Light attacking weaving looks bad. It is poorly done and takes away the elder scrolls feel. It will get fixed one day, they just slow at doing it.
This is the first step to fixing a problem that needs to be done.
A whole lot of nothing? I didnt even try to explain to begin with. But if you insist.... do me the solid and at the very damn least read this.
Adhere to the following.....Block when you need to block, roll when you need to roll, make sure to use every GCD when possible, squeeze in your light attacks between every skill, and make sure you are on the right bar by the time your GCD is up. This is ESOs combat at it's most fundamental. If you do this you will at many points "animation cancel" throughout your time playing this game. It is not a mystery to solve or some secret tech to master.
That is the biggest misconception. This is what wrobel was talking about. Animation canceling is simply a matter of existence once all of ESOs other combat components fall into place. Its unintended in that its simply a byproduct of the systems that govern combat being executed. It's not a bug or an exploit and does not enable any potency beyond the rules set in place by the developers
And another
Block when you need to block
Dodge when you need to dodge
Make full use of the GCD when possible
Make sure you are on the right bar when the GCD is up
Make sure to incorporate a light attack before every skill
Congratulations, you are likely animation canceling.
Outside of that, there is absolutely no benefit to canceling the recovery animations of skills that occur during the GCD refresh. It does not expedite a rotation, it does not increase damage, it does not allow you to circumvent the GCD. Zos is not "removing" animation canceling because animation canceling is not something that can be removed by pure virtue of the combat system working as intended. Wrobel said it was not intentional, not because it was a bug that couldnt be fix therefore embraced, he said it was not intentional because when all the moving intended parts of ESOs combat system that govern the combat rules ZOS made sure were in place, superfluous animations were inevitably going to clip as a matter of fact, plain and simple.
Light attacks are this games equivalent of the mmo auto attack, only it isnt auto in eso, meaning you have to manually let it out between skills, this is not a single player TES game so stop trying to allocate principles in games such as that in this. While ZOS would love to bill this as skyrim online, the harsh reality is at it's very core it is in fact an mmo with a unique relationship between client side player input and server side client resolutions. "The elder scrolls feel" ? I dont even know wtf that means.
Each and every skill in this game is fully animated as a base rule. Then it is injected into the combat system and the rules simply take their course. When such a course is taken ie player freedom to take defensive actions etc etc , certain animations are going to clip, trying to animate everything around that so no clipping occurs and the GCD is obeyed is asinine.
Let me paint you a picture. You hit an instant cast ability on a target, the GCD begins and during this time that you are prohibited from using another ability, your characters continues to animate the recovery animation of the instant cast skill. Let's say its suprise attack, so your character is reeling back from the slash which gain this follow through superfluous animation is playing out during a time frame where the game dictates you are not allowed to use another skill. In this window of time you see a snipe flying at your face from another target, or perhaps you see an slow aoe generating beneath your feet. Because this game intentionally makes sure players are never arbitrarily bound, they are free to take defensive actions, in this case a block or a dodge roll, both of which are going to cut off the animation that is playing out during the GCD. Congratulations, you just animation canceled simply by interacting with the combat rules as they are intentionally designed.
Basic attack weaving is widely considered not "animation canceling" despite it technically clipping animations. Here's the thing, light attacks do not trigger the GCD, thisnis done because zos wanted their to be an interactive way to use basic attacks and designed them to be apart of the core combat system, this is why light attacking before every skill works the way it does, as I said that is this mmos version of the "white" or "auto" attack. The reason it clips animations is because of another latency redundancy system which is the .5 second buffer time. .5 into the GCD, the game allows commands to be input that will then occur .5 seconds later when the GCD is complete, this applies to skills and basic attacks, and in the case of basic light attacks and the fact that some skills animate all the way through to the very end of the GCD, if you weave light attacks properly, you are nearly making sure the light attack comes out at the soonest alowed time which clips the animation and bingo.... you are weaving and "animation canceling".
Why have recovery animations? If every skill was designed to animate ENTIRELY in less than a second, combat would look far more like garbage than anything you currently see in game today.
You cannot tie resolve points on skills to the tail end of their animation because then you are essentially giving everything in this game a cast time and or forcing the damage points to the tail end of skills ie imagine if uppercut calculated its damage at the point that the 2h swing reaches the end if its weighted back sway motion.
This is why you absolutely can not say nonsense such as "if you cancel the animation you shouldnt get the damage or effects of the skill" since 1) this is already the case with hard cast and channeled abilities and 2) instant cast abilities are resolved instantly server side, so any action taken immediately after hitting an instant cast skill has 100 percent zero bearing on said skills outcome. This is why the "block cancel" changes made with this patch only truly have a negative effect on those who were delusional and confused enough to believe that "block canceling" instant cast skills for the sole purpose of cutting off the animation was doing anything for them beyond potentially hurting their stamina regen.
Gilliam explained and demonstrated live on stream last week what I have been trying to explain to people for years. Much of the information you see on screen and that you manipulate via forcing animations to cut off are entirely client side and have no bearing on the recipients end. This is why I constantly challenged people who claimed block canceling dawnbreaker or ranged skills like impale caused those skills to deliver their damage sooner because the combat text appeard on screen sooner. They didnt want to hear otherwise despite my best efforts to explain to them why they were wrong on a technical level, and this was a while ago.
The global cool down in online mmos was put in place as a means to both balance and control player potency with skill use, and as a means to control / limit player queries to the server in order to maintain stability since unlike non mmo like rpgs or online MP games, this genre tends to have more players in a given instance at a time. This is an absolute truth that lays the foundation for how a development studio proceeds in how they animate skills among MANY other aspects of server based player to player interactions.
Player A doesnt want animation canceling because it makes the game look dumb and ruins their immersion
Player b wants animation canceling because they have convinced themsleves it is an advanced technique that increases their combat potency beyond what the developers envisioned
Geuss what, both players are clowns.
I dont expect you to read all this frankly, so if you decide to [Snip].
God speed and God bless.
[Edited for baiting]]Edited by ZOS_Volpe on February 27, 2020 12:57PM23 -
StaticWave✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I can't run as fast as the other guy so I'll ask the judges to force him to run as slow as I do.. But seriously, I am actually disgusted at the amount of people wishing for AC nerf. Why don't you just let the animation run its duration, while people like me will continue animation canceling?12 -
DustyWarehouse✭✭✭rager82b14_ESO wrote: »Get over yourself. We are saying it makes the combat bad. The combat itself needs to be fixed, and canceling is just a bandaid that makes it even more tedious.
Wanting improved combat can't happen as long as canceling is a thing, and it needs to be removed. Pretending like ESO requires a level of skill that you could be proud of is laughable. Stop just stop.
You have an opinion, that's great. But the way you're putting it out here is incredibly selfish. For me, animation cancelling is exactly what makes combat in ESO so fluid and great.
And there you go, I have a different opinion; which one of us should ZOS listen to?
Take a look at your skills menu. Notice many of them have a cast time of "instant". Yet they have animations that play for, in some cases, more than one or two seconds. What if I want to chain two "instant" skills back to back as close to the GCD as possible? I'll cancel the animation, thus allowing me to activate the second skill quicker than if I let the animation play out. This greatly increases DPS and makes combat more fluid.
Also, it is not the cause of lag. It is by design that combat events can occur on the GCD, and all animation cancelling does is allow us to achieve that.
There is nothing at all stopping you from letting animations play out in full. Just please don't ask for that to be forced upon everyone else.13 -
Casterial✭✭✭✭✭
✭StaticWave wrote: »I can't run as fast as the other guy so I'll ask the judges to force him to run as slow as I do.. But seriously, I am actually disgusted at the amount of people wishing for AC nerf. Why don't you just let the animation run its duration, while people like me will continue animation canceling?
It comes down to, they don't want to learn to play or improve their skills. It'll be hilarious to see how bad DPS numbers turn with animation cancelling gone and how SLOW PVP will be.Daggerfall Covenant:Casterial Stamplar || Casterial DK || Availed NB || Castyrial Sorc || Spooky Casterial Necro
Member since: August 2013
Kill Counter Developer
For the Daggerfall Covenant
The Last Chillrend Empress
Animation Cancelling8 -
StaticWave✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭rager82b14_ESO wrote: »rager82b14_ESO wrote: »Now if you can do something about animation cancel, it will go a long ways.
The new block is already a start. I agree. Bet anim cancel is a huge part of the whole performance problem too.
no its not, a huge problem are the cyrodiil ball groups which spam a lot of AOEs/second the whole day,
which causes thousands of different calculations in only one group fight/second.
cyrodiil performance is directly related to the number of ball groups that are on the move at the same time.
who said anything about cyrodiil?
Do you have performance problems in pve?
Some areas in the world FPS would drop, but animation cancels looks bad, and is tedious. I just want it gone.
exactly!
well said.
i dont have a problem with light attack canceling but your right animation canceling in general ruined pvp and it does Heavily add calculations and stress and problems to lagg the servers, especially in pvp.
What calculation is it adding to the server exactly? There's a 1 second global cool down that you can't by pass so I don't understand why you think it would lag the servers. Say if 60 people don't animation cancel and the game still lags, are you gonna blame something else?10 -
StaticWave✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭rager82b14_ESO wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »rager82b14_ESO wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »rager82b14_ESO wrote: »rager82b14_ESO wrote: »rager82b14_ESO wrote: »Now if you can do something about animation cancel, it will go a long ways.
The new block is already a start. I agree. Bet anim cancel is a huge part of the whole performance problem too.
no its not, a huge problem are the cyrodiil ball groups which spam a lot of AOEs/second the whole day,
which causes thousands of different calculations in only one group fight/second.
cyrodiil performance is directly related to the number of ball groups that are on the move at the same time.
who said anything about cyrodiil?
Do you have performance problems in pve?
Some areas in the world FPS would drop, but animation cancels looks bad, and is tedious. I just want it gone.
This game would be absolutely crap if you full removed it. Probably slower combat than GW2 which has cooldowns, or slower than WoW at that point. Waiting x seconds for a fancy useless animation to go off... lol.
I mean all that stuff could be balance out, but the combat is already crap in this game.Animation cancels is a glitch that improves it for some players, but that does not fix the problem. It needs to go, and make the combat a little bit faster/reaction base.
The fact that a glitch improves your combat, and they have not fixed it. That looks bad on the developers and the design of the game.
Animation canceling is not a glitch.
I mean you can say that, does not mean it is true. Wtf is the point of a animation if it can be cancel. That is some dumb logic, and from a game design point of view. It is crazy to think that people would design a game where you can bypass the animation.
You are confused it's that simple. What you just said here exemplifies it. What I have learned over the years desperately trying to help those not informed, understand what is happening in this games combat system and why animation canceling as a "thing" is purely a byproduct of other mechancism at play, is that they either have zero interest in the truth or they legitimately are failing to grasp critical elements that define and explain the systems at work. Instead they latch on to hyperbole and misguided rants and the issue on this subject continues to perpetuate itself when new players come in and are conditioned to believe the same.
I grow so tired of constantly posting fundamental explanations with as much clarity as I know how to deliver as to why animation canceling exists and how it is not an exploit nor a bug nor an accident. I break this down for people and it largely goes unheard or I get the occasional nods before the thread and comment gets buried, I try to post a new thread to help those who dont understand and it as well devolves by page 3 and it becomes a pissing contest all the same. Your kind dont want to understand, you believe you know what is happening and believe that the game would be better off.
It is not a bug
It is not a glitch
It is not an oversight
Eric wrobel words have been misconstrued and twisted and you all have ran with it ever since.
I am the one confused? You just typed a whole bunch of nothing, that did not answer my question at all.
I never saw someone type so much nothing before.
From a pure gameplay point of view what type of developers would want a game design that the full swing does not go off. The fact they kept it in so long shows two things. I mean light attack cancel dodge roll cancel it just looks stupid, and is a dumb explot.
1) They are not skilled enough to fix said exploit.
2) The combat they design is so poorly done, that they need to glitch out animations just to make it reasonable.
Both answers looks poorly on them.
Light attacking weaving looks bad. It is poorly done and takes away the elder scrolls feel. It will get fixed one day, they just slow at doing it.
This is the first step to fixing a problem that needs to be done.
Nobody cares about how skills look bruh. You're literally free AP in cyrodiil with that mindset anyways xD8 -
Casterial✭✭✭✭✭
✭StaticWave wrote: »rager82b14_ESO wrote: »rager82b14_ESO wrote: »Now if you can do something about animation cancel, it will go a long ways.
The new block is already a start. I agree. Bet anim cancel is a huge part of the whole performance problem too.
no its not, a huge problem are the cyrodiil ball groups which spam a lot of AOEs/second the whole day,
which causes thousands of different calculations in only one group fight/second.
cyrodiil performance is directly related to the number of ball groups that are on the move at the same time.
who said anything about cyrodiil?
Do you have performance problems in pve?
Some areas in the world FPS would drop, but animation cancels looks bad, and is tedious. I just want it gone.
exactly!
well said.
i dont have a problem with light attack canceling but your right animation canceling in general ruined pvp and it does Heavily add calculations and stress and problems to lagg the servers, especially in pvp.
What calculation is it adding to the server exactly? There's a 1 second global cool down that you can't by pass so I don't understand why you think it would lag the servers. Say if 60 people don't animation cancel and the game still lags, are you gonna blame something else?
The server desync does not include server lag. Its basically the client failed to send new information to the server in time once you cancelled. I'd say the edge case of this is probably ~5% and ZOS is using it as an excuse, wanna see what really causes lag: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/514007
Daggerfall Covenant:Casterial Stamplar || Casterial DK || Availed NB || Castyrial Sorc || Spooky Casterial Necro
Member since: August 2013
Kill Counter Developer
For the Daggerfall Covenant
The Last Chillrend Empress
Animation Cancelling0 -
StaticWave✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭StaticWave wrote: »rager82b14_ESO wrote: »rager82b14_ESO wrote: »Now if you can do something about animation cancel, it will go a long ways.
The new block is already a start. I agree. Bet anim cancel is a huge part of the whole performance problem too.
no its not, a huge problem are the cyrodiil ball groups which spam a lot of AOEs/second the whole day,
which causes thousands of different calculations in only one group fight/second.
cyrodiil performance is directly related to the number of ball groups that are on the move at the same time.
who said anything about cyrodiil?
Do you have performance problems in pve?
Some areas in the world FPS would drop, but animation cancels looks bad, and is tedious. I just want it gone.
exactly!
well said.
i dont have a problem with light attack canceling but your right animation canceling in general ruined pvp and it does Heavily add calculations and stress and problems to lagg the servers, especially in pvp.
What calculation is it adding to the server exactly? There's a 1 second global cool down that you can't by pass so I don't understand why you think it would lag the servers. Say if 60 people don't animation cancel and the game still lags, are you gonna blame something else?
The server desync does not include server lag. Its basically the client failed to send new information to the server in time once you cancelled. I'd say the edge case of this is probably ~5% and ZOS is using it as an excuse, wanna see what really causes lag: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/514007
What really causes lag is the amount of people stacking in one place, and how many people are currently in that campaign. I've played in low 1-2 bar campaigns and had 15+ people per faction all gather at one place, but experience no server lag. I've also stood in the base and get 200 ping because the entire server is full. Animation canceling has nothing to do with lag, period. You're not adding any extra calculations to the server because you're limited by the global cooldown.7 -
Casterial✭✭✭✭✭
✭StaticWave wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »rager82b14_ESO wrote: »rager82b14_ESO wrote: »Now if you can do something about animation cancel, it will go a long ways.
The new block is already a start. I agree. Bet anim cancel is a huge part of the whole performance problem too.
no its not, a huge problem are the cyrodiil ball groups which spam a lot of AOEs/second the whole day,
which causes thousands of different calculations in only one group fight/second.
cyrodiil performance is directly related to the number of ball groups that are on the move at the same time.
who said anything about cyrodiil?
Do you have performance problems in pve?
Some areas in the world FPS would drop, but animation cancels looks bad, and is tedious. I just want it gone.
exactly!
well said.
i dont have a problem with light attack canceling but your right animation canceling in general ruined pvp and it does Heavily add calculations and stress and problems to lagg the servers, especially in pvp.
What calculation is it adding to the server exactly? There's a 1 second global cool down that you can't by pass so I don't understand why you think it would lag the servers. Say if 60 people don't animation cancel and the game still lags, are you gonna blame something else?
The server desync does not include server lag. Its basically the client failed to send new information to the server in time once you cancelled. I'd say the edge case of this is probably ~5% and ZOS is using it as an excuse, wanna see what really causes lag: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/514007
What really causes lag is the amount of people stacking in one place, and how many people are currently in that campaign. I've played in low 1-2 bar campaigns and had 15+ people per faction all gather at one place, but experience no server lag. I've also stood in the base and get 200 ping because the entire server is full. Animation canceling has nothing to do with lag, period. You're not adding any extra calculations to the server because you're limited by the global cooldown.
You still lag with the 15+ people in a small campaign, it will spike randomly. The server calculating client things is what caused this downhill spiral and ZOS is now making the server lag as an excuse to nerf combat to be stale. '
Believe me, i'm with you. This is just an excuse on their end.Daggerfall Covenant:Casterial Stamplar || Casterial DK || Availed NB || Castyrial Sorc || Spooky Casterial Necro
Member since: August 2013
Kill Counter Developer
For the Daggerfall Covenant
The Last Chillrend Empress
Animation Cancelling0 -
theadriel✭✭exeeter702 wrote: »rager82b14_ESO wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »rager82b14_ESO wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »rager82b14_ESO wrote: »rager82b14_ESO wrote: »rager82b14_ESO wrote: »Now if you can do something about animation cancel, it will go a long ways.
The new block is already a start. I agree. Bet anim cancel is a huge part of the whole performance problem too.
no its not, a huge problem are the cyrodiil ball groups which spam a lot of AOEs/second the whole day,
which causes thousands of different calculations in only one group fight/second.
cyrodiil performance is directly related to the number of ball groups that are on the move at the same time.
who said anything about cyrodiil?
Do you have performance problems in pve?
Some areas in the world FPS would drop, but animation cancels looks bad, and is tedious. I just want it gone.
This game would be absolutely crap if you full removed it. Probably slower combat than GW2 which has cooldowns, or slower than WoW at that point. Waiting x seconds for a fancy useless animation to go off... lol.
I mean all that stuff could be balance out, but the combat is already crap in this game.Animation cancels is a glitch that improves it for some players, but that does not fix the problem. It needs to go, and make the combat a little bit faster/reaction base.
The fact that a glitch improves your combat, and they have not fixed it. That looks bad on the developers and the design of the game.
Animation canceling is not a glitch.
I mean you can say that, does not mean it is true. Wtf is the point of a animation if it can be cancel. That is some dumb logic, and from a game design point of view. It is crazy to think that people would design a game where you can bypass the animation.
You are confused it's that simple. What you just said here exemplifies it. What I have learned over the years desperately trying to help those not informed, understand what is happening in this games combat system and why animation canceling as a "thing" is purely a byproduct of other mechancism at play, is that they either have zero interest in the truth or they legitimately are failing to grasp critical elements that define and explain the systems at work. Instead they latch on to hyperbole and misguided rants and the issue on this subject continues to perpetuate itself when new players come in and are conditioned to believe the same.
I grow so tired of constantly posting fundamental explanations with as much clarity as I know how to deliver as to why animation canceling exists and how it is not an exploit nor a bug nor an accident. I break this down for people and it largely goes unheard or I get the occasional nods before the thread and comment gets buried, I try to post a new thread to help those who dont understand and it as well devolves by page 3 and it becomes a pissing contest all the same. Your kind dont want to understand, you believe you know what is happening and believe that the game would be better off.
It is not a bug
It is not a glitch
It is not an oversight
Eric wrobel words have been misconstrued and twisted and you all have ran with it ever since.
I am the one confused? You just typed a whole bunch of nothing, that did not answer my question at all.
I never saw someone type so much nothing before.
From a pure gameplay point of view what type of developers would want a game design that the full swing does not go off. The fact they kept it in so long shows two things. I mean light attack cancel dodge roll cancel it just looks stupid, and is a dumb explot.
1) They are not skilled enough to fix said exploit.
2) The combat they design is so poorly done, that they need to glitch out animations just to make it reasonable.
Both answers looks poorly on them.
Light attacking weaving looks bad. It is poorly done and takes away the elder scrolls feel. It will get fixed one day, they just slow at doing it.
This is the first step to fixing a problem that needs to be done.
A whole lot of nothing? I didnt even try to explain to begin with. But if you insist.... do me the solid and at the very damn least read this.
Adhere to the following.....Block when you need to block, roll when you need to roll, make sure to use every GCD when possible, squeeze in your light attacks between every skill, and make sure you are on the right bar by the time your GCD is up. This is ESOs combat at it's most fundamental. If you do this you will at many points "animation cancel" throughout your time playing this game. It is not a mystery to solve or some secret tech to master.
That is the biggest misconception. This is what wrobel was talking about. Animation canceling is simply a matter of existence once all of ESOs other combat components fall into place. Its unintended in that its simply a byproduct of the systems that govern combat being executed. It's not a bug or an exploit and does not enable any potency beyond the rules set in place by the developers
And another
Block when you need to block
Dodge when you need to dodge
Make full use of the GCD when possible
Make sure you are on the right bar when the GCD is up
Make sure to incorporate a light attack before every skill
Congratulations, you are likely animation canceling.
Outside of that, there is absolutely no benefit to canceling the recovery animations of skills that occur during the GCD refresh. It does not expedite a rotation, it does not increase damage, it does not allow you to circumvent the GCD. Zos is not "removing" animation canceling because animation canceling is not something that can be removed by pure virtue of the combat system working as intended. Wrobel said it was not intentional, not because it was a bug that couldnt be fix therefore embraced, he said it was not intentional because when all the moving intended parts of ESOs combat system that govern the combat rules ZOS made sure were in place, superfluous animations were inevitably going to clip as a matter of fact, plain and simple.
Light attacks are this games equivalent of the mmo auto attack, only it isnt auto in eso, meaning you have to manually let it out between skills, this is not a single player TES game so stop trying to allocate principles in games such as that in this. While ZOS would love to bill this as skyrim online, the harsh reality is at it's very core it is in fact an mmo with a unique relationship between client side player input and server side client resolutions. "The elder scrolls feel" ? I dont even know wtf that means.
Each and every skill in this game is fully animated as a base rule. Then it is injected into the combat system and the rules simply take their course. When such a course is taken ie player freedom to take defensive actions etc etc , certain animations are going to clip, trying to animate everything around that so no clipping occurs and the GCD is obeyed is asinine.
Let me paint you a picture. You hit an instant cast ability on a target, the GCD begins and during this time that you are prohibited from using another ability, your characters continues to animate the recovery animation of the instant cast skill. Let's say its suprise attack, so your character is reeling back from the slash which gain this follow through superfluous animation is playing out during a time frame where the game dictates you are not allowed to use another skill. In this window of time you see a snipe flying at your face from another target, or perhaps you see an slow aoe generating beneath your feet. Because this game intentionally makes sure players are never arbitrarily bound, they are free to take defensive actions, in this case a block or a dodge roll, both of which are going to cut off the animation that is playing out during the GCD. Congratulations, you just animation canceled simply by interacting with the combat rules as they are intentionally designed.
Basic attack weaving is widely considered not "animation canceling" despite it technically clipping animations. Here's the thing, light attacks do not trigger the GCD, thisnis done because zos wanted their to be an interactive way to use basic attacks and designed them to be apart of the core combat system, this is why light attacking before every skill works the way it does, as I said that is this mmos version of the "white" or "auto" attack. The reason it clips animations is because of another latency redundancy system which is the .5 second buffer time. .5 into the GCD, the game allows commands to be input that will then occur .5 seconds later when the GCD is complete, this applies to skills and basic attacks, and in the case of basic light attacks and the fact that some skills animate all the way through to the very end of the GCD, if you weave light attacks properly, you are nearly making sure the light attack comes out at the soonest alowed time which clips the animation and bingo.... you are weaving and "animation canceling".
Why have recovery animations? If every skill was designed to animate ENTIRELY in less than a second, combat would look far more like garbage than anything you currently see in game today.
You cannot tie resolve points on skills to the tail end of their animation because then you are essentially giving everything in this game a cast time and or forcing the damage points to the tail end of skills ie imagine if uppercut calculated its damage at the point that the 2h swing reaches the end if its weighted back sway motion.
This is why you absolutely can not say nonsense such as "if you cancel the animation you shouldnt get the damage or effects of the skill" since 1) this is already the case with hard cast and channeled abilities and 2) instant cast abilities are resolved instantly server side, so any action taken immediately after hitting an instant cast skill has 100 percent zero bearing on said skills outcome. This is why the "block cancel" changes made with this patch only truly have a negative effect on those who were delusional and confused enough to believe that "block canceling" instant cast skills for the sole purpose of cutting off the animation was doing anything for them beyond potentially hurting their stamina regen.
Gilliam explained and demonstrated live on stream last week what I have been trying to explain to people for years. Much of the information you see on screen and that you manipulate via forcing animations to cut off are entirely client side and have no bearing on the recipients end. This is why I constantly challenged people who claimed block canceling dawnbreaker or ranged skills like impale caused those skills to deliver their damage sooner because the combat text appeard on screen sooner. They didnt want to hear otherwise despite my best efforts to explain to them why they were wrong on a technical level, and this was a while ago.
The global cool down in online mmos was put in place as a means to both balance and control player potency with skill use, and as a means to control / limit player queries to the server in order to maintain stability since unlike non mmo like rpgs or online MP games, this genre tends to have more players in a given instance at a time. This is an absolute truth that lays the foundation for how a development studio proceeds in how they animate skills among MANY other aspects of server based player to player interactions.
Player A doesnt want animation canceling because it makes the game look dumb and ruins their immersion
Player b wants animation canceling because they have convinced themsleves it is an advanced technique that increases their combat potency beyond what the developers envisioned
Geuss what, both players are clowns.
I dont expect you to read all this frankly, so if you decide to [Snip]
God speed and God bless.
[Edited for baiting]
well said. Thank you for explaining and I absolutely agree with you. Although I suck at pvp (still very much enjoy it) the combat is the main reason I play eso. Combat is fast paced and fun. I see a crystal blast coming at me? I want to block it or dodge it at my own will. Without "A/C" combat will be extremely boring and simplified. And that's how I felt with ffxiv. Slow paced and dull with no skill level. I feel you and the others that have spoken out.
ESO please. All your Lore and content are great. But your combat system is what really sets you apart from all other mmos. Its addictive and fun. Dont change it.Edited by ZOS_Volpe on February 27, 2020 12:59PM7 -
Mr_Walker✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭rager82b14_ESO wrote: »rager82b14_ESO wrote: »rager82b14_ESO wrote: »rager82b14_ESO wrote: »Now if you can do something about animation cancel, it will go a long ways.
The new block is already a start. I agree. Bet anim cancel is a huge part of the whole performance problem too.
no its not, a huge problem are the cyrodiil ball groups which spam a lot of AOEs/second the whole day,
which causes thousands of different calculations in only one group fight/second.
cyrodiil performance is directly related to the number of ball groups that are on the move at the same time.
who said anything about cyrodiil?
Do you have performance problems in pve?
Some areas in the world FPS would drop, but animation cancels looks bad, and is tedious. I just want it gone.
This game would be absolutely crap if you full removed it. Probably slower combat than GW2 which has cooldowns, or slower than WoW at that point. Waiting x seconds for a fancy useless animation to go off... lol.
I mean all that stuff could be balance out, but the combat is already crap in this game.Animation cancels is a glitch that improves it for some players, but that does not fix the problem. It needs to go, and make the combat a little bit faster/reaction base.
The fact that a glitch improves your combat, and they have not fixed it. That looks bad on the developers and the design of the game.
I think ~70-80% of all mmos I play have a form of animation canceling in it?
Many of them fixed it, because the developers had pride in the combat, and felt that a glitch undermines them. To leave this glitch in the game speaks volumes.
*ahem*
It's a "feature"....0 -
Mr_Walker✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭exeeter702 wrote: »rager82b14_ESO wrote: »rager82b14_ESO wrote: »rager82b14_ESO wrote: »Now if you can do something about animation cancel, it will go a long ways.
The new block is already a start. I agree. Bet anim cancel is a huge part of the whole performance problem too.
no its not, a huge problem are the cyrodiil ball groups which spam a lot of AOEs/second the whole day,
which causes thousands of different calculations in only one group fight/second.
cyrodiil performance is directly related to the number of ball groups that are on the move at the same time.
who said anything about cyrodiil?
Do you have performance problems in pve?
Some areas in the world FPS would drop, but animation cancels looks bad, and is tedious. I just want it gone.
This game would be absolutely crap if you full removed it. Probably slower combat than GW2 which has cooldowns, or slower than WoW at that point. Waiting x seconds for a fancy useless animation to go off... lol.
I mean all that stuff could be balance out, but the combat is already crap in this game.Animation cancels is a glitch that improves it for some players, but that does not fix the problem. It needs to go, and make the combat a little bit faster/reaction base.
The fact that a glitch improves your combat, and they have not fixed it. That looks bad on the developers and the design of the game.
Animation canceling is not a glitch.
Except devs have stated what happens is actually a desynch, no?3 -
Edziu✭✭✭✭✭
✭Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »ESO players talking about Patch Notes, Nerfs, Combat changes in nutshell:
So far I think the block changes are bad, as it feels less responsive & more clunky. When i watched Gilliamtherogue video (that he made on behalf of ZOS) I understood it simply as you still will be able to block animation-cancel, but the animation will actually finish and "a shield indicator" will appear during the animation. But it simply does not look to be the case. Some skills that have longer animation (but are instant) seems to be clunky & slow AF....
Will see how it go. Most likely will have to re-learn how to tank content & animation cancel. Would not be surprised if people will start picking up less powerful skills, that have shorter animation.
and the saddest part of some skills with so long animation....their unskippable animation by block now is longer than actual cast, channeling skills...if we cant skip animation which is so long and it cant be shortened....them just switch it to cast isntead instand and so balance it around cast skills - so making from instant to cast we need to get it buffed as anyway we cant skip so long animation placing us in unadvantage.....so why keeping these "insta" skills in this weak way?0 -
mayasunrising✭✭✭✭✭rager82b14_ESO wrote: »Now if you can do something about animation cancel, it will go a long ways.
The new block is already a start. I agree. Bet anim cancel is a huge part of the whole performance problem too.
no its not, a huge problem are the cyrodiil ball groups which spam a lot of AOEs/second the whole day,
which causes thousands of different calculations in only one group fight/second.
cyrodiil performance is directly related to the number of ball groups that are on the move at the same time.
I absolutely agree. Most of the times I have come into an established keep battle and d-conned it's been when one or more ball groups have been involved. If I'm not d-conned my FPS move into the single digits. I don't have these problems during standard large combats - even 3-ways."And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom." ♥ Anaïs Nin
“There’s a difference between wanting to be looked at and wanting to be seen." ♥ Amanda Palmer
“A game is an opportunity to focus our energy, with relentless optimism, at something we’re good at (or getting better at) and enjoy. In other words, gameplay is the direct emotional opposite of depression.” ♥ Jane McGonigal
“They'll tell you you're too loud, that you need to wait your turn and ask the right people for permission. Do it anyway." ♥ Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez5 -
JumpmanLane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭exeeter702 wrote: »rager82b14_ESO wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »rager82b14_ESO wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »rager82b14_ESO wrote: »rager82b14_ESO wrote: »rager82b14_ESO wrote: »Now if you can do something about animation cancel, it will go a long ways.
The new block is already a start. I agree. Bet anim cancel is a huge part of the whole performance problem too.
no its not, a huge problem are the cyrodiil ball groups which spam a lot of AOEs/second the whole day,
which causes thousands of different calculations in only one group fight/second.
cyrodiil performance is directly related to the number of ball groups that are on the move at the same time.
who said anything about cyrodiil?
Do you have performance problems in pve?
Some areas in the world FPS would drop, but animation cancels looks bad, and is tedious. I just want it gone.
This game would be absolutely crap if you full removed it. Probably slower combat than GW2 which has cooldowns, or slower than WoW at that point. Waiting x seconds for a fancy useless animation to go off... lol.
I mean all that stuff could be balance out, but the combat is already crap in this game.Animation cancels is a glitch that improves it for some players, but that does not fix the problem. It needs to go, and make the combat a little bit faster/reaction base.
The fact that a glitch improves your combat, and they have not fixed it. That looks bad on the developers and the design of the game.
Animation canceling is not a glitch.
I mean you can say that, does not mean it is true. Wtf is the point of a animation if it can be cancel. That is some dumb logic, and from a game design point of view. It is crazy to think that people would design a game where you can bypass the animation.
You are confused it's that simple. What you just said here exemplifies it. What I have learned over the years desperately trying to help those not informed, understand what is happening in this games combat system and why animation canceling as a "thing" is purely a byproduct of other mechancism at play, is that they either have zero interest in the truth or they legitimately are failing to grasp critical elements that define and explain the systems at work. Instead they latch on to hyperbole and misguided rants and the issue on this subject continues to perpetuate itself when new players come in and are conditioned to believe the same.
I grow so tired of constantly posting fundamental explanations with as much clarity as I know how to deliver as to why animation canceling exists and how it is not an exploit nor a bug nor an accident. I break this down for people and it largely goes unheard or I get the occasional nods before the thread and comment gets buried, I try to post a new thread to help those who dont understand and it as well devolves by page 3 and it becomes a pissing contest all the same. Your kind dont want to understand, you believe you know what is happening and believe that the game would be better off.
It is not a bug
It is not a glitch
It is not an oversight
Eric wrobel words have been misconstrued and twisted and you all have ran with it ever since.
I am the one confused? You just typed a whole bunch of nothing, that did not answer my question at all.
I never saw someone type so much nothing before.
From a pure gameplay point of view what type of developers would want a game design that the full swing does not go off. The fact they kept it in so long shows two things. I mean light attack cancel dodge roll cancel it just looks stupid, and is a dumb explot.
1) They are not skilled enough to fix said exploit.
2) The combat they design is so poorly done, that they need to glitch out animations just to make it reasonable.
Both answers looks poorly on them.
Light attacking weaving looks bad. It is poorly done and takes away the elder scrolls feel. It will get fixed one day, they just slow at doing it.
This is the first step to fixing a problem that needs to be done.
A whole lot of nothing? I didnt even try to explain to begin with. But if you insist.... do me the solid and at the very damn least read this.
Adhere to the following.....Block when you need to block, roll when you need to roll, make sure to use every GCD when possible, squeeze in your light attacks between every skill, and make sure you are on the right bar by the time your GCD is up. This is ESOs combat at it's most fundamental. If you do this you will at many points "animation cancel" throughout your time playing this game. It is not a mystery to solve or some secret tech to master.
That is the biggest misconception. This is what wrobel was talking about. Animation canceling is simply a matter of existence once all of ESOs other combat components fall into place. Its unintended in that its simply a byproduct of the systems that govern combat being executed. It's not a bug or an exploit and does not enable any potency beyond the rules set in place by the developers
And another
Block when you need to block
Dodge when you need to dodge
Make full use of the GCD when possible
Make sure you are on the right bar when the GCD is up
Make sure to incorporate a light attack before every skill
Congratulations, you are likely animation canceling.
Outside of that, there is absolutely no benefit to canceling the recovery animations of skills that occur during the GCD refresh. It does not expedite a rotation, it does not increase damage, it does not allow you to circumvent the GCD. Zos is not "removing" animation canceling because animation canceling is not something that can be removed by pure virtue of the combat system working as intended. Wrobel said it was not intentional, not because it was a bug that couldnt be fix therefore embraced, he said it was not intentional because when all the moving intended parts of ESOs combat system that govern the combat rules ZOS made sure were in place, superfluous animations were inevitably going to clip as a matter of fact, plain and simple.
Light attacks are this games equivalent of the mmo auto attack, only it isnt auto in eso, meaning you have to manually let it out between skills, this is not a single player TES game so stop trying to allocate principles in games such as that in this. While ZOS would love to bill this as skyrim online, the harsh reality is at it's very core it is in fact an mmo with a unique relationship between client side player input and server side client resolutions. "The elder scrolls feel" ? I dont even know wtf that means.
Each and every skill in this game is fully animated as a base rule. Then it is injected into the combat system and the rules simply take their course. When such a course is taken ie player freedom to take defensive actions etc etc , certain animations are going to clip, trying to animate everything around that so no clipping occurs and the GCD is obeyed is asinine.
Let me paint you a picture. You hit an instant cast ability on a target, the GCD begins and during this time that you are prohibited from using another ability, your characters continues to animate the recovery animation of the instant cast skill. Let's say its suprise attack, so your character is reeling back from the slash which gain this follow through superfluous animation is playing out during a time frame where the game dictates you are not allowed to use another skill. In this window of time you see a snipe flying at your face from another target, or perhaps you see an slow aoe generating beneath your feet. Because this game intentionally makes sure players are never arbitrarily bound, they are free to take defensive actions, in this case a block or a dodge roll, both of which are going to cut off the animation that is playing out during the GCD. Congratulations, you just animation canceled simply by interacting with the combat rules as they are intentionally designed.
Basic attack weaving is widely considered not "animation canceling" despite it technically clipping animations. Here's the thing, light attacks do not trigger the GCD, thisnis done because zos wanted their to be an interactive way to use basic attacks and designed them to be apart of the core combat system, this is why light attacking before every skill works the way it does, as I said that is this mmos version of the "white" or "auto" attack. The reason it clips animations is because of another latency redundancy system which is the .5 second buffer time. .5 into the GCD, the game allows commands to be input that will then occur .5 seconds later when the GCD is complete, this applies to skills and basic attacks, and in the case of basic light attacks and the fact that some skills animate all the way through to the very end of the GCD, if you weave light attacks properly, you are nearly making sure the light attack comes out at the soonest alowed time which clips the animation and bingo.... you are weaving and "animation canceling".
Why have recovery animations? If every skill was designed to animate ENTIRELY in less than a second, combat would look far more like garbage than anything you currently see in game today.
You cannot tie resolve points on skills to the tail end of their animation because then you are essentially giving everything in this game a cast time and or forcing the damage points to the tail end of skills ie imagine if uppercut calculated its damage at the point that the 2h swing reaches the end if its weighted back sway motion.
This is why you absolutely can not say nonsense such as "if you cancel the animation you shouldnt get the damage or effects of the skill" since 1) this is already the case with hard cast and channeled abilities and 2) instant cast abilities are resolved instantly server side, so any action taken immediately after hitting an instant cast skill has 100 percent zero bearing on said skills outcome. This is why the "block cancel" changes made with this patch only truly have a negative effect on those who were delusional and confused enough to believe that "block canceling" instant cast skills for the sole purpose of cutting off the animation was doing anything for them beyond potentially hurting their stamina regen.
Gilliam explained and demonstrated live on stream last week what I have been trying to explain to people for years. Much of the information you see on screen and that you manipulate via forcing animations to cut off are entirely client side and have no bearing on the recipients end. This is why I constantly challenged people who claimed block canceling dawnbreaker or ranged skills like impale caused those skills to deliver their damage sooner because the combat text appeard on screen sooner. They didnt want to hear otherwise despite my best efforts to explain to them why they were wrong on a technical level, and this was a while ago.
The global cool down in online mmos was put in place as a means to both balance and control player potency with skill use, and as a means to control / limit player queries to the server in order to maintain stability since unlike non mmo like rpgs or online MP games, this genre tends to have more players in a given instance at a time. This is an absolute truth that lays the foundation for how a development studio proceeds in how they animate skills among MANY other aspects of server based player to player interactions.
Player A doesnt want animation canceling because it makes the game look dumb and ruins their immersion
Player b wants animation canceling because they have convinced themsleves it is an advanced technique that increases their combat potency beyond what the developers envisioned
Geuss what, both players are clowns.
I dont expect you to read all this frankly, so if you decide to [Snip]
God speed and God bless.
[Edited for baiting]
I read it all! Great post!Edited by ZOS_Volpe on February 27, 2020 1:00PM11 -
exeeter702✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭exeeter702 wrote: »rager82b14_ESO wrote: »rager82b14_ESO wrote: »rager82b14_ESO wrote: »Now if you can do something about animation cancel, it will go a long ways.
The new block is already a start. I agree. Bet anim cancel is a huge part of the whole performance problem too.
no its not, a huge problem are the cyrodiil ball groups which spam a lot of AOEs/second the whole day,
which causes thousands of different calculations in only one group fight/second.
cyrodiil performance is directly related to the number of ball groups that are on the move at the same time.
who said anything about cyrodiil?
Do you have performance problems in pve?
Some areas in the world FPS would drop, but animation cancels looks bad, and is tedious. I just want it gone.
This game would be absolutely crap if you full removed it. Probably slower combat than GW2 which has cooldowns, or slower than WoW at that point. Waiting x seconds for a fancy useless animation to go off... lol.
I mean all that stuff could be balance out, but the combat is already crap in this game.Animation cancels is a glitch that improves it for some players, but that does not fix the problem. It needs to go, and make the combat a little bit faster/reaction base.
The fact that a glitch improves your combat, and they have not fixed it. That looks bad on the developers and the design of the game.
Animation canceling is not a glitch.
Except devs have stated what happens is actually a desynch, no?
The distinction is important here. Cutting off the recovery animations of skills with actions such as block can cause client side misinformation and desync.
The act of cutting off animations with actions such as block is not itself a bug or an exploit.3 -
ExistingRug61✭✭✭✭exeeter702 wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »rager82b14_ESO wrote: »rager82b14_ESO wrote: »rager82b14_ESO wrote: »Now if you can do something about animation cancel, it will go a long ways.
The new block is already a start. I agree. Bet anim cancel is a huge part of the whole performance problem too.
no its not, a huge problem are the cyrodiil ball groups which spam a lot of AOEs/second the whole day,
which causes thousands of different calculations in only one group fight/second.
cyrodiil performance is directly related to the number of ball groups that are on the move at the same time.
who said anything about cyrodiil?
Do you have performance problems in pve?
Some areas in the world FPS would drop, but animation cancels looks bad, and is tedious. I just want it gone.
This game would be absolutely crap if you full removed it. Probably slower combat than GW2 which has cooldowns, or slower than WoW at that point. Waiting x seconds for a fancy useless animation to go off... lol.
I mean all that stuff could be balance out, but the combat is already crap in this game.Animation cancels is a glitch that improves it for some players, but that does not fix the problem. It needs to go, and make the combat a little bit faster/reaction base.
The fact that a glitch improves your combat, and they have not fixed it. That looks bad on the developers and the design of the game.
Animation canceling is not a glitch.
Except devs have stated what happens is actually a desynch, no?
The distinction is important here. Cutting off the recovery animations of skills with actions such as block can cause client side misinformation and desync.
The act of cutting off animations with actions such as block is not itself a bug or an exploit.
Firstly, thanks @exeeter702 for the longer previous post detailing some of the mechanics, it sort of confirms how I felt it likely worked.
Hoping you could clarify to check I get what you mean by this using an example:
Say I have something like 250ms latency to the server, and I press a button to use an instant skill with a 1000ms animation, and then follow it 500ms later with block, simplified timing wise is it something like the following:
Before this patch:
0ms: I press the button for the skill, animation for skill starts (does the animation start client side without server confirmation?)
250ms: button press registers at server, server treats skill as having happened (effects applied etc) at this point (regardless of when the effect/damage actually appears on my client)
500ms: I press block, block would begin to animate, cutting off the animation of the previous skill (so the last 500ms is cancelled)?
750ms: block press actually registers at the server. Server now considers me blocking.
ie: block cancelling does nothing to actually change when the skill occurs. Blocking when I did to cut off the animation here is/was intended as it lets me defend if I have to.
And the desync is not that the animation has been cancelled, but rather because client side it looked like I am actually blocking before the server considers me to be (between the 500 and 750ms points), and this could be bigger or smaller depending on lag. ie: during this period if I was hit by something it would look like I blocked on my client but really I haven't.
And now it has been changed so that block needs server confirmation to animate, ie:
0ms: I press the button for the skill, animation for skill starts (does the animation start client side without server confirmation?)
250ms: button press registers at server, server treats skill as having happened (effects applied etc) at this point
500ms: I press block, previous animation considers to play
750ms: block press actually registers at the server. Server now considers me blocking.**
1000ms: My client now gets confirmation from the server that I am blocking, so block animates.
(**with potentially some other delay before it considers me blocking, as it sounds like block takes varying amounts of time to activate depending on the skill used)
Is that approximately right? Happy to be corrected.
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rager82b14_ESO wrote: »Now if you can do something about animation cancel, it will go a long ways.
i would straight up quit if it was removed11 -
dazee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭What combat changes? seriously theres no noticeable difference.Playing your character the way your character should play is all that matters. Play as well as you can but never betray the character. Doing so would make playing an mmoRPG pointless.2 -
rager82b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Since some of you posting don't seem to understand what it is, why it is consider a dps increase, and why it should be gone.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMhrzCvFOUg
This should teach you the basics of the game, and you don't need a long winded typing to explain what it is. We understand what it is, you are just wrong when saying it does not increase damage output.
GCD combat animations both are design to slow down players. A spell that can hit hard, the animations factor should play a factor into it. The animations should play a factor into combat and you should not be able to bypass it through light attacks or dodging. If you doing a powerful move that takes longer to get off than the GCD. That should very well be a factor. Not all skills or spells should be the same darn speed. That makes combat stale, and makes choices not matter when what skills you do. Just spam all of them hardest hitting ones.
7
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYZ9B7N6vHMThis discussion has been closed.