Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ATreeGnome wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Living vines is used. Trellis is a pvp magdens main burst heal and leeching is used by tanks.

As someone who does a fair bit of Warden tanking, honestly, they could probably lose it. It's a solid skill but it really wouldn't be some disastrous loss. Warden sustain is already hella good.

Perhaps. But what if corrupting pollen became a poison or disease ground DoT? Keeping it's current effects but gaining a strongish poison or disease DoT damage to those inside. And perhaps increasing the duration of the ability

As long as the healing portion is removed, I would be strongly in favor of that change. Giving Stamden a usable AoE DOT with a synergy could be a huge boost for group utility without buffing warden healers (which are pretty OP right now anyway).

As long as it continues to cost Mag. We can't afford another AoE DoT that's Stam costed. It's way too damn expensive with their redesign of costs, even with the reduction from this patch. It would either have to be ludicrously cheap or cost mag for it to work in the current climate. Our sustain is still kinda rough.

If it costs magicka and still burst heals at the end while keeping the synergy, it can be used by both pve stamden and pvp healers. Just as long as the damage and duration is respectable

ATreeGnome wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ATreeGnome wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Living vines is used. Trellis is a pvp magdens main burst heal and leeching is used by tanks.

As someone who does a fair bit of Warden tanking, honestly, they could probably lose it. It's a solid skill but it really wouldn't be some disastrous loss. Warden sustain is already hella good.

Perhaps. But what if corrupting pollen became a poison or disease ground DoT? Keeping it's current effects but gaining a strongish poison or disease DoT damage to those inside. And perhaps increasing the duration of the ability

As long as the healing portion is removed, I would be strongly in favor of that change. Giving Stamden a usable AoE DOT with a synergy could be a huge boost for group utility without buffing warden healers (which are pretty OP right now anyway).

As long as it continues to cost Mag. We can't afford another AoE DoT that's Stam costed. It's way too damn expensive with their redesign of costs, even with the reduction from this patch. It would either have to be ludicrously cheap or cost mag for it to work in the current climate. Our sustain is still kinda rough.

Magicka cost and damage but scales with max stats would seem like a fair compromise. Thematically the poison damage feels better though.

Actually this might be preferable. I don't think magdens will use it. But healers and stamdens Probably would. I'd prefer poison stays stam scaling though

So - back to Glacial Presence - do we know how long the new buff lasts for after an enemy is chilled?

thadjarvis wrote: »

@Arjuna1696
Since this thread starting, testing has been done. The following link should answer most questions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3wionuilO0


Asylum staff also provides chilled. It's parse meta, and will usually find it's best home on DKs in trials, but it's super useful in dungeon/arena.

Nice - thank you!

What I wish he covered is - what about using a frost enchant on the front bar (keep it inferno though) and keep weapon/spell damage glyph on back bar?

^Interesting and must feel weird. Why wouldn't magden's want that? More chilling for us

In a mixed mag/stam trial group Stamden's could benefit as MagDK's are often present and will be using Asylum. I haven't tested yet the MagDK uptime on chilled but interested to see it.

Magden will benefit for sure from MagDK's in trial group too. I noticed enough of a damage increase to alter mechanics for me in vMA yesterday with Asylum on Magden. Will continue to be a good option in Dung/Arena too unless maybe a MagDK is there spamming Force Pulse faster.

thadjarvis wrote: »

^Interesting and must feel weird. Why wouldn't magden's want that? More chilling for us

In a mixed mag/stam trial group Stamden's could benefit as MagDK's are often present and will be using Asylum. I haven't tested yet the MagDK uptime on chilled but interested to see it.

Magden will benefit for sure from MagDK's in trial group too. I noticed enough of a damage increase to alter mechanics for me in vMA yesterday with Asylum on Magden. Will continue to be a good option in Dung/Arena too unless maybe a MagDK is there spamming Force Pulse faster.

Well, when I brought up having WR or Arctic Blast function as a co-spec DoT that scaled off highest offensive stat, people were *strongly* opposed. It still does 2k DPS ST on a dummy. It's a solid option and actually works pretty well.

As far as DKs with Asylum staves, from ESO logs, seems average Chilled uptime with multiple people running either Asylum or ele weapon was ~25-30%. Winter's Revenge from a Stamden accomplishes that by itself, not even considering a frost glyph.

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Arjuna1696 wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

I've actually been experimenting with running Winter's Revenge on back bar as Stam. Gives about ~25% chilled uptime on a dummy. Probably going to be a solid DPS increase. Ironic that Magdens don't really want Stam using WR. but it's probably going to be a huge DPS increase for us. Just slot it on back bar with hail.

I don't know why Magdens would have an opinion on what you put on your bar, outside of the fact that WR on a stam bar doesn't make a lot of sense for you and therefore the group's total dps. 25% chill uptime means you'll only benefit from the 10% increased crit damage 25% of the time. If your crit % is around 60% ... 0.25 x 0.60 = 15% of your crits will land on recently chilled enemies. 15% earning 10% more damage results in ~1.5% more dps (if I did my maths right), so another cast of a spammable probably pays off more than a cast of WR.

I mean, not sure what to tell you, slotting WR was a DPS gain for me so far in testing. Mine is rank 1 and still does nearly 2k DPS. It's actually pretty passable damage, and it's going to be super good on trash in trials. Not to mention it helps with sustain, being a mag cast.

Well if it works it works - it'd be nice for stam wardens to have better access to frost abilities, no doubt about that. I'd love for it to scale off highest offensive stat, personally. It'd replace caltrops, which I still miss...

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Arjuna1696 wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

I've actually been experimenting with running Winter's Revenge on back bar as Stam. Gives about ~25% chilled uptime on a dummy. Probably going to be a solid DPS increase. Ironic that Magdens don't really want Stam using WR. but it's probably going to be a huge DPS increase for us. Just slot it on back bar with hail.

I don't know why Magdens would have an opinion on what you put on your bar, outside of the fact that WR on a stam bar doesn't make a lot of sense for you and therefore the group's total dps. 25% chill uptime means you'll only benefit from the 10% increased crit damage 25% of the time. If your crit % is around 60% ... 0.25 x 0.60 = 15% of your crits will land on recently chilled enemies. 15% earning 10% more damage results in ~1.5% more dps (if I did my maths right), so another cast of a spammable probably pays off more than a cast of WR.

I mean, not sure what to tell you, slotting WR was a DPS gain for me so far in testing. Mine is rank 1 and still does nearly 2k DPS. It's actually pretty passable damage, and it's going to be super good on trash in trials. Not to mention it helps with sustain, being a mag cast.

that's awesome to see! have you tried Gripping? scales off health and melee ranged? I dunno, just looking for the "better" option.

Arjuna1696 wrote: »

the fact that WR on a stam bar doesn't make a lot of sense

Recall that Stam classes tend to slot a skill or two that dumps mag to increase stam sustain by utilizing the free mag recovery instead. Definitely makes sense that Winters on a stamden could be viable and Skja has tested that at least for him it does. It may not stam scale but the effective damage buff and sustain benefits has value.

It's worthwhile for all stam classes to test Soul Trap vs Class Mag cost DoT vs no mag skill every patch or two. It will interact with players' race, food and vampire choice too (beyond just class). Eg my Imperial DK Vampire friend's build (a lot of mag recovery) utilizes two mag skills. A redguard non-vamp DK might only use one. Ie, the ideal for you may not be identical to content creator parse builds and they may not go through every class in detail this patch anyway as not much has changed for most classes. Moreover, can't know until you test it.

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

As far as DKs with Asylum staves, from ESO logs, seems average Chilled uptime with multiple people running either Asylum or ele weapon was ~25-30%. Winter's Revenge from a Stamden accomplishes that by itself, not even considering a frost glyph.

I have not found a way to directly measure chilled easily as as far as I can tell CMX and ESOlogs does not measure it directly. I've been using Minor Maim as a proxy, but that becomes close to useless when looking at a non-solo content log due to tanks and other things applying Maim not from Chill. If you know a better method please share. The image is a short example I have on my magden finishing off Voriak Solkyan (final vMA boss). Second line is Minor Maim.

Seems to me that just one MagDK with an elf bane rotation should have a very high maim uptime in theory, but when I look at my log I can't make heads or tails of why maim isn't always re-applied every 2nd force pulse cast....?! You can see that some proc's are from Winters (was not using any other frost like a glyph or IH). For others note stam WR procs will be lower due to not having destruction status effect passive (stam does have WE passive at least).

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Well, when I brought up having WR or Arctic Blast function as a co-spec DoT that scaled off highest offensive stat, people were *strongly* opposed. It still does 2k DPS ST on a dummy. It's a solid option and actually works pretty well.

Don't know why anyone *should* care but underwear can get bunchy. If I had taken part at all indirectly, it was an effort to get the others to focus on your poison ideas instead of all the other damage types. But yes like Stamplar, StamNB and others Winters would make sense to stam scale particularly with this new passive.

@Skjaldbjorn Ah I know what you mean. Kinda like separate instances for say minor berserk coming from BoP vs Combat prayer? I’ll take a closer look and thanks for sharing the poison+winters testing (will share with friends that have Stamdens).

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

thadjarvis wrote: »

Arjuna1696 wrote: »

the fact that WR on a stam bar doesn't make a lot of sense

Recall that Stam classes tend to slot a skill or two that dumps mag to increase stam sustain by utilizing the free mag recovery instead. Definitely makes sense that Winters on a stamden could be viable and Skja has tested that at least for him it does. It may not stam scale but the effective damage buff and sustain benefits has value.

It's worthwhile for all stam classes to test Soul Trap vs Class Mag cost DoT vs no mag skill every patch or two. It will interact with players' race, food and vampire choice too (beyond just class). Eg my Imperial DK Vampire friend's build (a lot of mag recovery) utilizes two mag skills. A redguard non-vamp DK might only use one. Ie, the ideal for you may not be identical to content creator parse builds and they may not go through every class in detail this patch anyway as not much has changed for most classes. Moreover, can't know until you test it.

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

As far as DKs with Asylum staves, from ESO logs, seems average Chilled uptime with multiple people running either Asylum or ele weapon was ~25-30%. Winter's Revenge from a Stamden accomplishes that by itself, not even considering a frost glyph.

I have not found a way to directly measure chilled easily as as far as I can tell CMX and ESOlogs does not measure it directly. I've been using Minor Maim as a proxy, but that becomes close to useless when looking at a non-solo content log due to tanks and other things applying Maim not from Chill. If you know a better method please share. The image is a short example I have on my magden finishing off Voriak Solkyan (final vMA boss). Second line is Minor Maim.

Seems to me that just one MagDK with an elf bane rotation should have a very high maim uptime in theory, but when I look at my log I can't make heads or tails of why maim isn't always re-applied every 2nd force pulse cast....?! You can see that some proc's are from Winters (was not using any other frost like a glyph or IH). For others note stam WR procs will be lower due to not having destruction status effect passive (stam does have WE passive at least).

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Well, when I brought up having WR or Arctic Blast function as a co-spec DoT that scaled off highest offensive stat, people were *strongly* opposed. It still does 2k DPS ST on a dummy. It's a solid option and actually works pretty well.

Don't know why anyone *should* care but underwear can get bunchy. If I had taken part at all indirectly, it was an effort to get the others to focus on your poison ideas instead of all the other damage types. But yes like Stamplar, StamNB and others Winters would make sense to stam scale particularly with this new passive.

i'll tell you why I care about it, overall magicka classes have more class skills because stamina classes have more weapons. arctic blast should be a unique magicka warden skill because it makes thematic sense and because magicka warden has the least amount of damage skills of any magicka class, in my opinion giving magicka warden and stamina warden all the same skills defeats the purpose of having stamina and magicka in the first place, because stamina classes would have all of the same options that magicka has. but more because of different weapons. you might think it's dumb, but why do we play specific classes (ie, stamina and magicka) in the first place? it's what makes them unique or different. that is what appeals to so many people and it's far more important for casual players who make up a large majority of the game. I'm not saying stamina warden shouldn't have a unique damage skill. but it shouldn't be a winter's embrace skill. I don't think this is the final change they're going to make to the class or even frost magic in general. as soon as more frost damage starts being used more, you gain benefit from this passive in groups. even asylum staves help it now that magdks are using it. again, not saying stamina warden shouldn't get anything unique, i really think they need it. they should have a unique group damage buff and a functional spammable. but don't take magicka warden's frost identity away.

I get what you are saying about weapons...mag gets one choice sadly and that's something ZOS should look at but why not share a damage skill across specs? Nb and templars both do it and it gives people a choice. Should a 10% buff go to Magdens only??? How is that balanced or fair? A buff to the class should be just that, to the Class.

@ESO_Nightingale I get where you come from on protecting magden. I accept that, but it’s appears to be protecting a magden concept (frost) that is not what magden is (magic).

When looking at PvE Magden objectively I do not currently or past patches see a Frost damage class. We are a Magic damage class first and foremost with Frost AND Fire as secondary. We don't have many weapon skills but I do consider non-class magic skills as part of my magden kit that I would not include as readily on many other classes. In a sense they an extension of our class skills.

PvE Damage Skill example:

• My Core skills that never leave the bar are: Fissure (magic), Winters (frost), Wall (fire)
• My flex skills: Fetcher* (magic), Cliff Racer (magic), Force Pulse (all), Entropy (magic), Rune (fire), Orb (magic), Prox Detonate (magic)
• Bear ulit (Magic) is most common. Flex: Comet (Frost/Fire), Storm (Frost), Destro (Fire)

So we have ONE total frost skill outside of flex ultimates and the Fire option seems to be the first choice for most after bear.

If not using Rune, Frost and Fire DPS from abilities on a magden are about equal. Magic DPS is over twice those two combined. This doesn't include LA's which would put Frost damage as Magden's 3rd DPS damage type.

LA: mostly Fire, <5% if the time Lightning, never Frost

Enchants: most Fire and general damage, special situations Shock or Prismatic (Magic), can now use Frost for pure ST but it’s minimal and too restrictive for the gain

In PvP we are Frostier, but PvE Magden simply is not a Frost mage. We are nature mages in PvE. Our damage skills were designed as such to be Nature primary with a little frost flavor; Frost was the tank's primary from the get-go. There is nothing wrong with that concept. Eg Magsorc's are Dark Magic / Pet mages, and many like the capable RP lightning mage option.

ZoS has stated many times that frost is not a damage focused element in ESO. Yes they added to our flavor of frost, but we still are a Magic Damage Mage focusing on Nature first.

thadjarvis wrote: »

@ESO_Nightingale I get where you come from on protecting magden. I accept that, but it’s appears to be protecting a magden concept (frost) that is not what magden is (magic).

When looking at PvE Magden objectively I do not currently or past patches see a Frost damage class. We are a Magic damage class first and foremost with Frost AND Fire as secondary. We don't have many weapon skills but I do consider non-class magic skills as part of my magden kit that I would not include as readily on many other classes. In a sense they an extension of our class skills.

PvE Damage Skill example:

• My Core skills that never leave the bar are: Fissure (magic), Winters (frost), Wall (fire)
• My flex skills: Fetcher* (magic), Cliff Racer (magic), Force Pulse (all), Entropy (magic), Rune (fire), Orb (magic), Prox Detonate (magic)
• Bear ulit (Magic) is most common. Flex: Comet (Frost/Fire), Storm (Frost), Destro (Fire)

So we have ONE total frost skill outside of flex ultimates and the Fire option seems to be the first choice for most after bear.

If not using Rune, Frost and Fire DPS from abilities on a magden are about equal. Magic DPS is over twice those two combined. This doesn't include LA's which would put Frost damage as Magden's 3rd DPS damage type.

In PvP we are Frostier, but PvE Magden simply is not a Frost mage. We are nature mages in PvE. Our damage skills were designed as such to be Nature primary with a little frost flavor; Frost was the tank's primary from the get-go. There is nothing wrong with that concept. Eg Magsorc's are Dark Magic / Pet mages, and many like the capable RP lightning mage option.

ZoS has stated many times that frost is not a damage focused element in ESO. Yes they added to our flavor of frost, but we still are a Mage Damage Mage focusing on Nature first. I'm not hard set on Nature or Frost personally, but I think it's important to accept what we are.

We are not as frosty as we could be its true. However, adding more frost related changes to magicka warden is something we have beeing rallying for, and something we need for the sake of identity. It makes sense that we would have frost damage as our main element. We are the only class that has passives that specialise in it. A ton of other magic classes specialise in magic. Even sorc does. But sorc has it's fair share of shock dased damage.

They may have stated that it was a tanking element in the past. But i don't believe that outdated view anymore because of a lot of recent changes that have included frost dps in their vision. New sets, set changes(ice furnace. Not iceheart) and changes to magicka warden specifically.

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Honestly if Warden's going to become the "bleed" class you might as well have Shalks do bleed damage as well and have the damage apply over 3 seconds. I abso-fing-lutely HATE the bleed idea though, just as much as you hate Stamden getting frost, @ESO_Nightingale.

Sorry you hate bleeds. Not sure why, but it's unique to stamden, thematically fits and doesn't step on any toes.

thadjarvis wrote: »

@ESO_Nightingale had to say my peace on frost. I don't see the hatred many have of nature mage but if warden flips the 1/3, 2/3 Frost/Nature magic focus I'll still play it. That said it seems some undervalued the nature aspect: in another post someone claimed that the green balance tree is loaded with useless skills?!

Anyway, do you have a link to your skill document?

I don't have a hatred towards the animals. The only thing i really don't like is that the animals they chose are specific to vvardenfell. It limits character building. But how i see it as magicka warden is a mag class about spirit animals. Since they're spirit animals, shalks which normally deal fire damage, deal magicka damage instead, i think it would help further separate the identities if the spirit animals dealt frost damage instead since winter's embrace is a prominent theme in the class. It's more viable. But additionally, we should have a new frost damage skill that helps to complete magicka warden as it's always had less damage skills than other classes.

I don't think the green balance skills are useless. But do need some QoL fixes. For example mag shrooms is really expensive, lotus is a bit random with it's targeting, nature's grasp has a ton of issues with rubber banding, trees refuse to place half of the time. Stuff like that.


Doing this on mobile, so i think this is the list.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fWoOX0S4yrR_KFZcjBAvHvR2K6T__6LrIGiaERV8NQA/edit?usp=sharing

Just last night i finished my design document for arctic blast 4.0 so i think this is the link.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1n68B7D2Zna4NNcDCiPp1zYmJP4KDh3n-PsRAI80RLnM/edit?usp=drivesdk

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fWoOX0S4yrR_KFZcjBAvHvR2K6T__6LrIGiaERV8NQA/edit?usp=sharing

Just last night i finished my design document for arctic blast 4.0 so i think this is the link.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1n68B7D2Zna4NNcDCiPp1zYmJP4KDh3n-PsRAI80RLnM/edit?usp=drivesdk

Looking through your design doc, I have to be honest, I get you love frost, but that's absurd. Giving every single ability Frost damage is excessive and unnecessary. I can 100% get behind the Wraith and Fissure moving to frost, but there's no reason at all for the bugs or bear to. It makes zero sense thematically or logically. I also think only the mag bugs becoming an execute is completely unnecessary, honestly. Especially if Stam are losing a class execute for their piddly "cleave" mechanic that you don't even use bugs for. It's garbage with a capital G.

Like, if these changes were proposed, i'd fight about half of this tooth and nail forum warrior style. There's a lot of really good ideas, and some that simply don't make sense at all, or could possibly be balance-breaking.