Clarification on Warden Glacial Presence passive

Skjaldbjorn · January 2020

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Dude. Chill I'm trying to help you.

I know you are. But I feel like you lack a lot of perspective, and some of the things you've said really make that apparent. I don't mean that offensively, but if you don't main a Stamden, and you aren't involved in a lot of end-game trial scenarios where things are boiled down to minute details and specific comps, you really can't understand where i'm coming from.

ESO_Nightingale · January 2020

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Okay i think what i suggested before will help. Changing dive to be a better spammable and bear to be a better skill. I don't think shalks needs a buff. And perhaps stamden could see a passive buff on piercing cold that benefits them seeing as it only buffs magicka warden at the moment. Just throwing these out here, but with dive, increase projectile speed on base and reverse the off balance proc range. With cutting dive, remove the off balance proc for the bleed, reduce the stacks to 3 but increase the bleed damage by a reasonable amount. Wild Guardian could see a change that would increase it's light attack speed and/or apply a bleed DoT for a few seconds when it does that falling heavy attack. Piercing Cold could be a stamden buff that increases damage in some way for stamden. I don't think physical penetration is a good idea, but perhaps... your bleeds can now apply chilled. That way it procs glacial presence. Bird of prey is tricky. I'm not sure what it could do instead of minor berserk.

How long of a CD would you put on the 3 stacks? What's your up/down? That's vitally important. How much per tick? Currently, the bleed is around 107/sec per stack.

The other thing you really need to remember with adding all these dots is they're the lowest form of damage right now. We're running 40 or less in Thaum. Thaum is an awful stat. Hail is only there to proc Berserk anymore. We barely even use Growing Swarm for a lot of rotations. Stacking more and more DoTs on us really isn't an efficient way to help, especially when they can be wildly inconsistent to trigger, such as the bear.

The idea for Dive is to make the first DoT do medium damage for 3 maybe 4 seconds, second stack has high damage and maybe 4-5s duration and final stack has pretty high damage and lasts for 5-6s. It's a very short duration but powerful dot that promotes it's use. Bear bleed buff might last for 6 seconds or something. More flavourful but still another bleed to add to stamden to help that chilled chance. With a better bear attack speed that means a good buff to DPS, these changes should really help stamden out in pve.

Skjaldbjorn · January 2020

Currently with a pot and food, my bird bleed is 10,100 per stack give or take, and you can consistently hit 6-7 stacks. Reducing that to three would mean you have to put an additional 13.5k roughly on each bleed. That means each bleed is doing about 3300 DPS. So the up/down is vitally important If this ticks for 7 seconds and then is down for 20, that's really not helping us. However, anything much shorter could be absolutely broken in PVP.

Skjaldbjorn · January 2020

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

The idea for Dive is to make the first DoT do medium damage for 3 maybe 4 seconds, second stack has high damage and maybe 4-5s duration and final stack has pretty high damage and lasts for 5-6s. It's a very short duration but powerful dot that promotes it's use. Bear bleed buff might last for 6 seconds or something. More flavourful but still another bleed to add to stamden to help that chilled chance. With a better bear attack speed that means a good buff to DPS, these changes should really help stamden out in pve.

I don't really understand your dive idea at all. The first dot? Would it be cancelled by the second cast, or do they stack up as individual effects?

ESO_Nightingale · January 2020

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

The idea for Dive is to make the first DoT do medium damage for 3 maybe 4 seconds, second stack has high damage and maybe 4-5s duration and final stack has pretty high damage and lasts for 5-6s. It's a very short duration but powerful dot that promotes it's use. Bear bleed buff might last for 6 seconds or something. More flavourful but still another bleed to add to stamden to help that chilled chance. With a better bear attack speed that means a good buff to DPS, these changes should really help stamden out in pve.

I don't really understand your dive idea at all. The first dot? Would it be cancelled by the second cast, or do they stack up as individual effects?

What i meant is what one stack would do. Stacks refresh damage and duration making them better.

Skjaldbjorn · January 2020

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

The idea for Dive is to make the first DoT do medium damage for 3 maybe 4 seconds, second stack has high damage and maybe 4-5s duration and final stack has pretty high damage and lasts for 5-6s. It's a very short duration but powerful dot that promotes it's use. Bear bleed buff might last for 6 seconds or something. More flavourful but still another bleed to add to stamden to help that chilled chance. With a better bear attack speed that means a good buff to DPS, these changes should really help stamden out in pve.

I don't really understand your dive idea at all. The first dot? Would it be cancelled by the second cast, or do they stack up as individual effects?

What i meant is what one stack would do. Stacks refresh damage and duration making them better.

Okay, so I could still stack the DoTs without losing damage. That's reasonable. What's the CD?

ESO_Nightingale · January 2020

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

The idea for Dive is to make the first DoT do medium damage for 3 maybe 4 seconds, second stack has high damage and maybe 4-5s duration and final stack has pretty high damage and lasts for 5-6s. It's a very short duration but powerful dot that promotes it's use. Bear bleed buff might last for 6 seconds or something. More flavourful but still another bleed to add to stamden to help that chilled chance. With a better bear attack speed that means a good buff to DPS, these changes should really help stamden out in pve.

I don't really understand your dive idea at all. The first dot? Would it be cancelled by the second cast, or do they stack up as individual effects?

What i meant is what one stack would do. Stacks refresh damage and duration making them better.

Okay, so I could still stack the DoTs without losing damage. That's reasonable. What's the CD?

Would stop stacking after 3 stacks. After the 3rd Stack runs out, stacks can be immediately re-applied.

Skjaldbjorn · January 2020

I dunno, reading that suggests that I somehow need to stop using birds for extended periods on front bar, which is actually worse in effect in many ways. Shalks is already a delayed spammable. Turning birds into that as well would just be a disaster. Like, maximizing DPS under your build would require you to wait 4-5 seconds to cast birds again. That might be alright in PVP, but in PVE that's just...awful. We simply don't have much else to weave in those gaps.

Skjaldbjorn · January 2020

I think what may be better is normalizing the damage and duration of each bleed. So like, 5 second duration, bleed damage is per stack and is the same, but each stack increases the bleed damage by 10-15% or something to that effect. That way, there's a point in using birds as an actual spammable. Then you could either have the bleeds drop off, or work a bit like Stonefist where it perma-refreshes if you keep hitting with birds.

In fact, if the 3-stack was sustainable and impacted all your bleeds, that would buff the bear bleed as well as the bugs bleed, which would encourage you to keep them rolling full-time. That's an interesting dynamic.

ESO_Nightingale · January 2020

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

I dunno, reading that suggests that I somehow need to stop using birds for extended periods on front bar, which is actually worse in effect in many ways. Shalks is already a delayed spammable. Turning birds into that as well would just be a disaster. Like, maximizing DPS under your build would require you to wait 4-5 seconds to cast birds again. That might be alright in PVP, but in PVE that's just...awful. We simply don't have much else to weave in those gaps.

The reason for the gap is to allow the DoT to keep ticking when you're on your backbar refreshing stuff. If you can suggest a better duration+ stack amount for this suggestion that would be helpful.

ESO_Nightingale · January 2020

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

I think what may be better is normalizing the damage and duration of each bleed. So like, 5 second duration, bleed damage is per stack and is the same, but each stack increases the bleed damage by 10-15% or something to that effect. That way, there's a point in using birds as an actual spammable. Then you could either have the bleeds drop off, or work a bit like Stonefist where it perma-refreshes if you keep hitting with birds.

In fact, if the 3-stack was sustainable and impacted all your bleeds, that would buff the bear bleed as well as the bugs bleed, which would encourage you to keep them rolling full-time. That's an interesting dynamic.

That idea works for me. Sounds good.

Skjaldbjorn · January 2020

The only other issue then is the reliance on the Thaum CP under that concept. So instead of Stamden benefiting from the crit damage passive, it would probably be better to give Stamden a conditional 10% damage buff to over-time effects. If we're investing in thaum our rotation will have to shift heavily toward DoTs which means shalks gets progressively weaker.

ESO_Nightingale · January 2020

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

The only other issue then is the reliance on the Thaum CP under that concept. So instead of Stamden benefiting from the crit damage passive, it would probably be better to give Stamden a conditional 10% damage buff to over-time effects. If we're investing in thaum our rotation will have to shift heavily toward DoTs which means shalks gets progressively weaker.

Shalks could recieve that conditional DoT buff without effecting PvP too hard.

Skjaldbjorn · January 2020

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

The only other issue then is the reliance on the Thaum CP under that concept. So instead of Stamden benefiting from the crit damage passive, it would probably be better to give Stamden a conditional 10% damage buff to over-time effects. If we're investing in thaum our rotation will have to shift heavily toward DoTs which means shalks gets progressively weaker.

Shalks could recieve that conditional DoT buff without effecting PvP too hard.

So in essence;

Casting Shalks gives 10% buff to DoT Damage
Bird bleed caps at 3 stacks, 4-5s duration, stack drop-off up for debate, normalized damage, increases bleeds per stack
Bear randomly applies bleed on Swipe

That seem correct?

ESO_Nightingale · January 2020

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

The only other issue then is the reliance on the Thaum CP under that concept. So instead of Stamden benefiting from the crit damage passive, it would probably be better to give Stamden a conditional 10% damage buff to over-time effects. If we're investing in thaum our rotation will have to shift heavily toward DoTs which means shalks gets progressively weaker.

Shalks could recieve that conditional DoT buff without effecting PvP too hard.

So in essence;

Casting Shalks gives 10% buff to DoT Damage
Bird bleed caps at 3 stacks, 4-5s duration, stack drop-off up for debate, normalized damage, increases bleeds per stack
Bear randomly applies bleed on Swipe

That seem correct?

Bear also gains a light attack speed buff. Also the bear bleed is guarenteed on that aoe fall heavy attack thing.

Skjaldbjorn · January 2020

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Bear also gains a light attack speed buff. Also the bear bleed is guarenteed on that aoe fall heavy attack thing.

It wouldn't be my first, second, third or fourth choice, honestly. I want Stamden to improve, but much like you, thematics do matter to me. Thematically, these changes make no sense. This seems like a Nightblade setup. Wardens are the "bleed" class? Maybe if we weren't flinging birds and instead had a claw/talon melee attack it would seem more...logical. The bear giving a bleed I do get, big ole rending claws and such, but Warden has never really embraced the "Primal Nature" theme but that seems to be the approach you'd like, but I think that would have to come with a lot of visual overhaul.

Skjaldbjorn · January 2020

One alternative I think would probably be more functional and true to Warden, after giving it some thought, is dropping the DoT buff from Shalks and just have it deal 10-15% increased damage to targets that are Bleeding. That brings the conditional element like the frost passive, keeps Shalks as our central core spammable skill, and ties in with the bird bleeds nicely.

ESO_Nightingale · January 2020

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

One alternative I think would probably be more functional and true to Warden, after giving it some thought, is dropping the DoT buff from Shalks and just have it deal 10-15% increased damage to targets that are Bleeding. That brings the conditional element like the frost passive, keeps Shalks as our central core spammable skill, and ties in with the bird bleeds nicely.

I'm down with that. All id ask is to remove minor berserk from bird of prey.

Edit: removed a sentence that no longer made sense.

llBlack_Heartll · January 2020

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

I have a fun game I play sometimes, it's called "Find the Warden". You can play it Mag, Stam or both. All you need is to go to ESOlogs. So here, for example, this is the logs for Lokkestiiz HM. I'll show you how to play.

https://www.esologs.com/zone/rankings/12#boss=43&page=1

Essentially, you go down the leaderboards and find the Wardens. In this example, here they are;

#325 - Magden
#326 - Magden
#485 - Magden
#530 - Stamden
#622 - Magden
#630 - Stamden
#703 - Magden
#753 - Stamden
#762 - Magden
#789 - Stamden
#844 - Magden
#866 - Stamden
#872 - Magden
#903 - Magden
#919 - Magden
#956 - Stamden
#981 - Stamden
#987 - Magden

That's it for the top-1000. 18/1000. Magden is at least skirting the top-300. You don't even find a Stamden till you're outside of the top-500. That's a consistent trend, sadly.

Wow, this just says it all.
Clearly, something need to change.

Skjaldbjorn · January 2020

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

I'm down with that. All id ask is to remove minor berserk from bird of prey.

Edit: removed a sentence that no longer made sense.

That change I 100% support, but if we're losing Minor Berserk (and I think we should) i'd have one other caveat. Have the bird bleed scale off MaA instead of Thaum, much as Stamplar's jabs do. It's a dot connected to a direct damage skill. The DoT can deal lower base damage accordingly, but having Warden to try to split their CP all over town just seems wrong to me. Let our other DoTs like swarm go off Thaum, that's fine, but exclusively for the bird bleed.

ATreeGnome · January 2020

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Bear also gains a light attack speed buff. Also the bear bleed is guarenteed on that aoe fall heavy attack thing.

It wouldn't be my first, second, third or fourth choice, honestly. I want Stamden to improve, but much like you, thematics do matter to me. Thematically, these changes make no sense. This seems like a Nightblade setup. Wardens are the "bleed" class? Maybe if we weren't flinging birds and instead had a claw/talon melee attack it would seem more...logical. The bear giving a bleed I do get, big ole rending claws and such, but Warden has never really embraced the "Primal Nature" theme but that seems to be the approach you'd like, but I think that would have to come with a lot of visual overhaul.

Thematically, I would really like to see a Green Balance ability turned in to a DPS skill and, let's be honest, wardens are heavily overloaded in support abilities. Why not turn living vines in to a thorn related AoE DOT? One morph could do poison damage, the other magic damage, and both could have unique effects. It's not an ability that I see utilized by supports ever really and it would make both types of warden DPS feel like they embrace more of the warden theme.

ESO_Nightingale · January 2020

ATreeGnome wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Bear also gains a light attack speed buff. Also the bear bleed is guarenteed on that aoe fall heavy attack thing.

It wouldn't be my first, second, third or fourth choice, honestly. I want Stamden to improve, but much like you, thematics do matter to me. Thematically, these changes make no sense. This seems like a Nightblade setup. Wardens are the "bleed" class? Maybe if we weren't flinging birds and instead had a claw/talon melee attack it would seem more...logical. The bear giving a bleed I do get, big ole rending claws and such, but Warden has never really embraced the "Primal Nature" theme but that seems to be the approach you'd like, but I think that would have to come with a lot of visual overhaul.

Thematically, I would really like to see a Green Balance ability turned in to a DPS skill and, let's be honest, wardens are heavily overloaded in support abilities. Why not turn living vines in to a thorn related AoE DOT? One morph could do poison damage, the other magic damage, and both could have unique effects. It's not an ability that I see utilized by supports ever really and it would make both types of warden DPS feel like they embrace more of the warden theme.

Living vines is used. Trellis is a pvp magdens main burst heal and leeching is used by tanks.

Skjaldbjorn · January 2020

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Living vines is used. Trellis is a pvp magdens main burst heal and leeching is used by tanks.

As someone who does a fair bit of Warden tanking, honestly, they could probably lose it. It's a solid skill but it really wouldn't be some disastrous loss. Warden sustain is already hella good.

ESO_Nightingale · January 2020

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Living vines is used. Trellis is a pvp magdens main burst heal and leeching is used by tanks.

As someone who does a fair bit of Warden tanking, honestly, they could probably lose it. It's a solid skill but it really wouldn't be some disastrous loss. Warden sustain is already hella good.

Perhaps. But what if corrupting pollen became a poison or disease ground DoT? Keeping it's current effects but gaining a strongish poison or disease DoT damage to those inside. And perhaps increasing the duration of the ability

ATreeGnome · January 2020

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

ATreeGnome wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Bear also gains a light attack speed buff. Also the bear bleed is guarenteed on that aoe fall heavy attack thing.

It wouldn't be my first, second, third or fourth choice, honestly. I want Stamden to improve, but much like you, thematics do matter to me. Thematically, these changes make no sense. This seems like a Nightblade setup. Wardens are the "bleed" class? Maybe if we weren't flinging birds and instead had a claw/talon melee attack it would seem more...logical. The bear giving a bleed I do get, big ole rending claws and such, but Warden has never really embraced the "Primal Nature" theme but that seems to be the approach you'd like, but I think that would have to come with a lot of visual overhaul.

Thematically, I would really like to see a Green Balance ability turned in to a DPS skill and, let's be honest, wardens are heavily overloaded in support abilities. Why not turn living vines in to a thorn related AoE DOT? One morph could do poison damage, the other magic damage, and both could have unique effects. It's not an ability that I see utilized by supports ever really and it would make both types of warden DPS feel like they embrace more of the warden theme.

Living vines is used. Trellis is a pvp magdens main burst heal and leeching is used by tanks.

I can't speak to PvP as I mainly PvE, but I've warden tanked nearly every trial HM in the game and I would never have taken leeching vines - it's essentially a bad version of blood alter. Same for warden healing. So if Trellis is really that important, keep it, but Leeching Vines could could be changed with almost zero impact on PvE.

ESO_Nightingale · January 2020

I think if any green balance skill should be changed into a damage skill, it should be for stamden. Where as winter's embrace changes for magden. That way i think the thematic differences would be quite acceptable.

ATreeGnome · January 2020

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Living vines is used. Trellis is a pvp magdens main burst heal and leeching is used by tanks.

As someone who does a fair bit of Warden tanking, honestly, they could probably lose it. It's a solid skill but it really wouldn't be some disastrous loss. Warden sustain is already hella good.

Perhaps. But what if corrupting pollen became a poison or disease ground DoT? Keeping it's current effects but gaining a strongish poison or disease DoT damage to those inside. And perhaps increasing the duration of the ability

As long as the healing portion is removed, I would be strongly in favor of that change. Giving Stamden a usable AoE DOT with a synergy could be a huge boost for group utility without buffing warden healers (which are pretty OP right now anyway).

ESO_Nightingale · January 2020

ATreeGnome wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Living vines is used. Trellis is a pvp magdens main burst heal and leeching is used by tanks.

As someone who does a fair bit of Warden tanking, honestly, they could probably lose it. It's a solid skill but it really wouldn't be some disastrous loss. Warden sustain is already hella good.

Perhaps. But what if corrupting pollen became a poison or disease ground DoT? Keeping it's current effects but gaining a strongish poison or disease DoT damage to those inside. And perhaps increasing the duration of the ability

As long as the healing portion is removed, I would be strongly in favor of that change. Giving Stamden a usable AoE DOT with a synergy could be a huge boost for group utility without buffing warden healers (which are pretty OP right now anyway).

On one condition, that the Synergy stays.

Skjaldbjorn · January 2020

ATreeGnome wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Living vines is used. Trellis is a pvp magdens main burst heal and leeching is used by tanks.

As someone who does a fair bit of Warden tanking, honestly, they could probably lose it. It's a solid skill but it really wouldn't be some disastrous loss. Warden sustain is already hella good.

Perhaps. But what if corrupting pollen became a poison or disease ground DoT? Keeping it's current effects but gaining a strongish poison or disease DoT damage to those inside. And perhaps increasing the duration of the ability

As long as the healing portion is removed, I would be strongly in favor of that change. Giving Stamden a usable AoE DOT with a synergy could be a huge boost for group utility without buffing warden healers (which are pretty OP right now anyway).

As long as it continues to cost Mag. We can't afford another AoE DoT that's Stam costed. It's way too damn expensive with their redesign of costs, even with the reduction from this patch. It would either have to be ludicrously cheap or cost mag for it to work in the current climate. Our sustain is still kinda rough.

ATreeGnome · January 2020

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

ATreeGnome wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Living vines is used. Trellis is a pvp magdens main burst heal and leeching is used by tanks.

As someone who does a fair bit of Warden tanking, honestly, they could probably lose it. It's a solid skill but it really wouldn't be some disastrous loss. Warden sustain is already hella good.

Perhaps. But what if corrupting pollen became a poison or disease ground DoT? Keeping it's current effects but gaining a strongish poison or disease DoT damage to those inside. And perhaps increasing the duration of the ability

As long as the healing portion is removed, I would be strongly in favor of that change. Giving Stamden a usable AoE DOT with a synergy could be a huge boost for group utility without buffing warden healers (which are pretty OP right now anyway).

On one condition, that the Synergy stays.

Absolutely. Getting more group synergies for Lokkestiiz/Alkosh would be enough make it feel like bringing a stamden to a raid isn't a straight up DPS loss.