brandonv516 wrote: »

For me it's the 2 and 3 piece bonuses that are a bit unattractive.

2-3 set bonus’ are good. It’s hard to buff health and stay effective.

Clever alchemist is absolutely good and will be worth it. It’s like anything else, you have to build around it.

See signature for answer. Seriously though there's no reason to standardize things. If you try and standardize everything meta's become more prevalent. Clever alch is fine on LIVE. The buff is fine doesn't need anything else. Just like when dizzy swing was a 1sec cast time + stun. It was fine, then overtuned, now not anything like it was. I rather not see that happen to clever alchemist a set I've used since DB.

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Turbine wrote: »

i just tested newmoon and clever alchemist, if you put attribute points to get as much health on new moon as alchemist give, you are gonna still have much more damage then alchemist gives and this with 100% uptime. my suggestion is to buff the weapon damage for more or get more time for the weapon damage when you drink a potion. they are just those meta sets in pvp that anyone is using, there is no "build around it"

You tested with which race, class, jewelry?
This buff makes me want to roll out argonian NB... i am not sure if stamNB or magNB though.

I was thinking there’s an outside chance it would work on a magblade dark cloak build.

Argonian - 3x infused potions speed jewellery bringing your potion cooldown to 21 seconds - Use immovability + crit + magicka pots. CA + buffer of the swift/combat physician + Kena.

Only problem will be you’ll have to use the mage skill dot for major sorcery which is a build killer on a magblade, magblade skills are undertuned and it usually requires 3 skills to do what other classes can do with 2. Potion speed in general doesn’t work well on a magblade because the class lacks buffs so you use pots for crit and sorcery.

Idk stamblade enough to build with it. Regardless this will likely work best on a MagDK Argonian and clever alchemist argonian will be BiS. Might as well look at any more buffs to clever alchemist to be a direct MagDK buff.

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Turbine wrote: »

i just tested newmoon and clever alchemist, if you put attribute points to get as much health on new moon as alchemist give, you are gonna still have much more damage then alchemist gives and this with 100% uptime. my suggestion is to buff the weapon damage for more or get more time for the weapon damage when you drink a potion. they are just those meta sets in pvp that anyone is using, there is no "build around it"

You tested with which race, class, jewelry?
This buff makes me want to roll out argonian NB... i am not sure if stamNB or magNB though.

I was thinking there’s an outside chance it would work on a magblade dark cloak build.

Argonian - 3x infused potions speed jewellery bringing your potion cooldown to 21 seconds - Use immovability + crit + magicka pots. CA + buffer of the swift/combat physician + Kena.

Only problem will be you’ll have to use the mage skill dot for major sorcery which is a build killer on a magblade, magblade skills are undertuned and it usually requires 3 skills to do what other classes can do with 2. Potion speed in general doesn’t work well on a magblade because the class lacks buffs so you use pots for crit and sorcery.

Idk stamblade enough to build with it. Regardless this will likely work best on a MagDK Argonian and clever alchemist argonian will be BiS. Might as well look at any more buffs to clever alchemist to be a direct MagDK buff.

But with potion speed you may use 2 different pots - 1 of spell power (before fight starts) and then when you engage and use ultimate second pot will be ready. I am thinking about some "pressure" build, there are so many possibilities... I met argonian infused speed pot stamsorc last week in no-CP. I don't remember when I felt so "outclassed" by another build last time... he had crazy uptime of cc-immunity and seemingly infinite sustain. His damage was not great, but not bad either and he simply kept and kept pressure for 1 or 2 minutes until my resources expired.
But of course there are drawbacks too like first 2 bonuses which push you to no health food.. I am thinking about BTB+CA+maxmagicka/maxregen drink and rotating spell power/cc-immunity pots with fear and soul harvest spam. I think in no-CP majority of opponents will be simply out of stamina very fast no matter the class. And soul harvest is good option to keep pressure imo.
Also there are some non-pelinal hybrid ideas so you can use dark cloak + vigor and drop resto bar... but in incoming meta shade+shadow cloak can be a good option against stamcro lol.. too many variables ><

It’d still work better on a MagDK imo, you could make it fit on a magblade but IDK and don’t feel like devoting the resources to a build that might bust. It’s not like Magblades are in a good enough spot there’s a lot of variety, plus rely on speed for most of their defense so swift is a must.

If I was a MagDK I’d try:

Argonian + CA front bar + BRP DW back bar, Jorvlund + Kena. 3x pot speed infused jewellery. For pots use:

https://imgur.com/DSBkwxy

Or

https://imgur.com/iqbZFnF

Will be tanky, decent sustain and a MagDK can heavy attack to cover any weakness while a magNB will have trouble. Jorvlund will extend the duration of BRP DW and the pots to 21 seconds. Should fall just shy of 4k spell power. The one pot with speed so you can use wings.

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Turbine wrote: »

i just tested newmoon and clever alchemist, if you put attribute points to get as much health on new moon as alchemist give, you are gonna still have much more damage then alchemist gives and this with 100% uptime. my suggestion is to buff the weapon damage for more or get more time for the weapon damage when you drink a potion. they are just those meta sets in pvp that anyone is using, there is no "build around it"

You tested with which race, class, jewelry?
This buff makes me want to roll out argonian NB... i am not sure if stamNB or magNB though.

I was thinking there’s an outside chance it would work on a magblade dark cloak build.

Argonian - 3x infused potions speed jewellery bringing your potion cooldown to 21 seconds - Use immovability + crit + magicka pots. CA + buffer of the swift/combat physician + Kena.

Only problem will be you’ll have to use the mage skill dot for major sorcery which is a build killer on a magblade, magblade skills are undertuned and it usually requires 3 skills to do what other classes can do with 2. Potion speed in general doesn’t work well on a magblade because the class lacks buffs so you use pots for crit and sorcery.

Idk stamblade enough to build with it. Regardless this will likely work best on a MagDK Argonian and clever alchemist argonian will be BiS. Might as well look at any more buffs to clever alchemist to be a direct MagDK buff.

But with potion speed you may use 2 different pots - 1 of spell power (before fight starts) and then when you engage and use ultimate second pot will be ready. I am thinking about some "pressure" build, there are so many possibilities... I met argonian infused speed pot stamsorc last week in no-CP. I don't remember when I felt so "outclassed" by another build last time... he had crazy uptime of cc-immunity and seemingly infinite sustain. His damage was not great, but not bad either and he simply kept and kept pressure for 1 or 2 minutes until my resources expired.
But of course there are drawbacks too like first 2 bonuses which push you to no health food.. I am thinking about BTB+CA+maxmagicka/maxregen drink and rotating spell power/cc-immunity pots with fear and soul harvest spam. I think in no-CP majority of opponents will be simply out of stamina very fast no matter the class. And soul harvest is good option to keep pressure imo.
Also there are some non-pelinal hybrid ideas so you can use dark cloak + vigor and drop resto bar... but in incoming meta shade+shadow cloak can be a good option against stamcro lol.. too many variables ><

It’d still work better on a MagDK imo, you could make it fit on a magblade but IDK and don’t feel like devoting the resources to a build that might bust. It’s not like Magblades are in a good enough spot there’s a lot of variety.

If I was a MagDK I’d try:

Argonian + CA front bar + BRP DW back bar, Jorvlund + Kena. 3x pot speed infused jewellery. For pots use:

https://imgur.com/DSBkwxy

Or

https://imgur.com/iqbZFnF

Will be tanky, decent sustain and a MagDK can heavy attack to cover any weakness while a magNB will have trouble. Jorvlund will extend the duration of BRP DW and the pots to 21 seconds. Should fall just shy of 4k spell power. The one pot with speed so you can use wings.

But what is real uptime of BRP DW? that is one of the best backbars of course because it counters meta aoe hard hitting abilities, protects you from ganks, give some protection + major expedition + free procs of berserker... but major protection uptime is quite low in practice. So if you won't have at least bloodspawn on top of that, I doubt that build will have enough mitigation. But of course as for group healer, jorvuld+ca+argonian looks awesome.

Maybe, I don't have enough experience with magdk to tell how it would play out. The safe route is to go CA plus BTB instead with tri-stat pots.

Still it looks great on paper, I don't know a proper magdk skill layout to set it up but here's everything in the editor:

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=194113

Here's all the buffs it would have:

Major protection on blade cloak - 4.2 second duration
Major evasion from blade cloak - 14 second duration
Wings - normal duration
Major fortitude, minor endurance, minor vitality from green dragon blood - 31 second duration
Major brutality and sorcery, 50% extra damage on heavy attacks - 42 second duration
Major resolve from volatile armor - 28 second duration
Minor protection, major vitality and major expedition - 21 second duration

All with a potion cooldown of 21 seconds. Could work, could suck, IDK, but it'd be worth a shot imo.

Lightning staff of course front bar, I never understood why magdks all use flame staves with terrible heavy attacks and lots of aoes, lightning heavies are tons better. It's like sorcs using a lightning staff with all single target abilities when a flame staff is just better, they never heavy attack anyways.

Looking at the editor, if it's right lightning heavy attacks do 6k damage. Is that the final hit or per tick?

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Turbine wrote: »

i just tested newmoon and clever alchemist, if you put attribute points to get as much health on new moon as alchemist give, you are gonna still have much more damage then alchemist gives and this with 100% uptime. my suggestion is to buff the weapon damage for more or get more time for the weapon damage when you drink a potion. they are just those meta sets in pvp that anyone is using, there is no "build around it"

You tested with which race, class, jewelry?
This buff makes me want to roll out argonian NB... i am not sure if stamNB or magNB though.

I was thinking there’s an outside chance it would work on a magblade dark cloak build.

Argonian - 3x infused potions speed jewellery bringing your potion cooldown to 21 seconds - Use immovability + crit + magicka pots. CA + buffer of the swift/combat physician + Kena.

Only problem will be you’ll have to use the mage skill dot for major sorcery which is a build killer on a magblade, magblade skills are undertuned and it usually requires 3 skills to do what other classes can do with 2. Potion speed in general doesn’t work well on a magblade because the class lacks buffs so you use pots for crit and sorcery.

Idk stamblade enough to build with it. Regardless this will likely work best on a MagDK Argonian and clever alchemist argonian will be BiS. Might as well look at any more buffs to clever alchemist to be a direct MagDK buff.

But with potion speed you may use 2 different pots - 1 of spell power (before fight starts) and then when you engage and use ultimate second pot will be ready. I am thinking about some "pressure" build, there are so many possibilities... I met argonian infused speed pot stamsorc last week in no-CP. I don't remember when I felt so "outclassed" by another build last time... he had crazy uptime of cc-immunity and seemingly infinite sustain. His damage was not great, but not bad either and he simply kept and kept pressure for 1 or 2 minutes until my resources expired.
But of course there are drawbacks too like first 2 bonuses which push you to no health food.. I am thinking about BTB+CA+maxmagicka/maxregen drink and rotating spell power/cc-immunity pots with fear and soul harvest spam. I think in no-CP majority of opponents will be simply out of stamina very fast no matter the class. And soul harvest is good option to keep pressure imo.
Also there are some non-pelinal hybrid ideas so you can use dark cloak + vigor and drop resto bar... but in incoming meta shade+shadow cloak can be a good option against stamcro lol.. too many variables ><

It’d still work better on a MagDK imo, you could make it fit on a magblade but IDK and don’t feel like devoting the resources to a build that might bust. It’s not like Magblades are in a good enough spot there’s a lot of variety.

If I was a MagDK I’d try:

Argonian + CA front bar + BRP DW back bar, Jorvlund + Kena. 3x pot speed infused jewellery. For pots use:

https://imgur.com/DSBkwxy

Or

https://imgur.com/iqbZFnF

Will be tanky, decent sustain and a MagDK can heavy attack to cover any weakness while a magNB will have trouble. Jorvlund will extend the duration of BRP DW and the pots to 21 seconds. Should fall just shy of 4k spell power. The one pot with speed so you can use wings.

But what is real uptime of BRP DW? that is one of the best backbars of course because it counters meta aoe hard hitting abilities, protects you from ganks, give some protection + major expedition + free procs of berserker... but major protection uptime is quite low in practice. So if you won't have at least bloodspawn on top of that, I doubt that build will have enough mitigation. But of course as for group healer, jorvuld+ca+argonian looks awesome.

Maybe, I don't have enough experience with magdk to tell how it would play out. The safe route is to go CA plus BTB instead with tri-stat pots.

Still it looks great on paper, I don't know a proper magdk skill layout to set it up but here's everything in the editor:

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=194113

Here's all the buffs it would have:

Major protection on blade cloak - 4.2 second duration
Major evasion from blade cloak - 14 second duration
Wings - normal duration
Major fortitude, minor endurance, minor vitality from green dragon blood - 31 second duration
Major brutality and sorcery, 50% extra damage on heavy attacks - 42 second duration
Major resolve from volatile armor - 28 second duration
Minor protection, major vitality and major expedition - 21 second duration

All with a potion cooldown of 21 seconds. Could work, could suck, IDK, but it'd be worth a shot imo.

Lightning staff of course front bar, I never understood why magdks all use flame staves with terrible heavy attacks and lots of aoes, lightning heavies are tons better. It's like sorcs using a lightning staff with all single target abilities when a flame staff is just better, they never heavy attack anyways.

Looking at the editor, if it's right lightning heavy attacks do 6k damage. Is that the final hit or per tick?

Looks pretty broken, especially if you'll add major mending
But... that major vitality pot with major expedition is a "little bit" expensive. Powdered mother of pearl is 3k+... so cost of pot will be ~1k with another ingredients. 3k gold per minute of battle looks extreme imo I'm not even sure there is enough pearl supply at reasonable prices to sustain such build. Because when I stock up on it, there is very little on sale and all is sold within hour.
And the only "cheap" version is vitality+HP+armor.

I think the best one would be the vitality, 100% uptime on major vitality is pretty awesome. Next best would be speed maybe, just because it’d allow using wings and ditch RAT.

I read in the PTS patch notes you can pot now when you’re stunned? I didn’t test that part out to fully understand the change. If you can, health pot + break free in one GCD that would be strong too, or an immovability pot if it automatically breaks the cc.

There are lots of good pots out there, maybe just cycle the ones you use would be best to keep costs down. Like if you used an invisibility pot on a MagDK I can guarantee a rage thread will be made the very next day, and from my experience that’s when you know you’ve found a good build.

NBrookus wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Turbine wrote: »

i just tested newmoon and clever alchemist, if you put attribute points to get as much health on new moon as alchemist give, you are gonna still have much more damage then alchemist gives and this with 100% uptime. my suggestion is to buff the weapon damage for more or get more time for the weapon damage when you drink a potion. they are just those meta sets in pvp that anyone is using, there is no "build around it"

You tested with which race, class, jewelry?
This buff makes me want to roll out argonian NB... i am not sure if stamNB or magNB though.

I was thinking there’s an outside chance it would work on a magblade dark cloak build.

Argonian - 3x infused potions speed jewellery bringing your potion cooldown to 21 seconds - Use immovability + crit + magicka pots. CA + buffer of the swift/combat physician + Kena.

Only problem will be you’ll have to use the mage skill dot for major sorcery which is a build killer on a magblade, magblade skills are undertuned and it usually requires 3 skills to do what other classes can do with 2. Potion speed in general doesn’t work well on a magblade because the class lacks buffs so you use pots for crit and sorcery.

Idk stamblade enough to build with it. Regardless this will likely work best on a MagDK Argonian and clever alchemist argonian will be BiS. Might as well look at any more buffs to clever alchemist to be a direct MagDK buff.

But with potion speed you may use 2 different pots - 1 of spell power (before fight starts) and then when you engage and use ultimate second pot will be ready. I am thinking about some "pressure" build, there are so many possibilities... I met argonian infused speed pot stamsorc last week in no-CP. I don't remember when I felt so "outclassed" by another build last time... he had crazy uptime of cc-immunity and seemingly infinite sustain. His damage was not great, but not bad either and he simply kept and kept pressure for 1 or 2 minutes until my resources expired.
But of course there are drawbacks too like first 2 bonuses which push you to no health food.. I am thinking about BTB+CA+maxmagicka/maxregen drink and rotating spell power/cc-immunity pots with fear and soul harvest spam. I think in no-CP majority of opponents will be simply out of stamina very fast no matter the class. And soul harvest is good option to keep pressure imo.
Also there are some non-pelinal hybrid ideas so you can use dark cloak + vigor and drop resto bar... but in incoming meta shade+shadow cloak can be a good option against stamcro lol.. too many variables ><

It’d still work better on a MagDK imo, you could make it fit on a magblade but IDK and don’t feel like devoting the resources to a build that might bust. It’s not like Magblades are in a good enough spot there’s a lot of variety.

If I was a MagDK I’d try:

Argonian + CA front bar + BRP DW back bar, Jorvlund + Kena. 3x pot speed infused jewellery. For pots use:

https://imgur.com/DSBkwxy

Or

https://imgur.com/iqbZFnF

Will be tanky, decent sustain and a MagDK can heavy attack to cover any weakness while a magNB will have trouble. Jorvlund will extend the duration of BRP DW and the pots to 21 seconds. Should fall just shy of 4k spell power. The one pot with speed so you can use wings.

But what is real uptime of BRP DW? that is one of the best backbars of course because it counters meta aoe hard hitting abilities, protects you from ganks, give some protection + major expedition + free procs of berserker... but major protection uptime is quite low in practice. So if you won't have at least bloodspawn on top of that, I doubt that build will have enough mitigation. But of course as for group healer, jorvuld+ca+argonian looks awesome.

Maybe, I don't have enough experience with magdk to tell how it would play out. The safe route is to go CA plus BTB instead with tri-stat pots.

Still it looks great on paper, I don't know a proper magdk skill layout to set it up but here's everything in the editor:

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=194113

Here's all the buffs it would have:

Major protection on blade cloak - 4.2 second duration
Major evasion from blade cloak - 14 second duration
Wings - normal duration
Major fortitude, minor endurance, minor vitality from green dragon blood - 31 second duration
Major brutality and sorcery, 50% extra damage on heavy attacks - 42 second duration
Major resolve from volatile armor - 28 second duration
Minor protection, major vitality and major expedition - 21 second duration

All with a potion cooldown of 21 seconds. Could work, could suck, IDK, but it'd be worth a shot imo.

Lightning staff of course front bar, I never understood why magdks all use flame staves with terrible heavy attacks and lots of aoes, lightning heavies are tons better. It's like sorcs using a lightning staff with all single target abilities when a flame staff is just better, they never heavy attack anyways.

Looking at the editor, if it's right lightning heavy attacks do 6k damage. Is that the final hit or per tick?

Because you MUST have Whip and Leap to kill, and flame stuff buffs those. You ain't killing no one with lightning staff heavies and talons.

Group builds are a different animal.

A flame staff doesn’t buff fire attacks, only single target abilities like whip.

With a lightning you’d be sacrificing whip damage for stronger aoes: like leap, all the dots, etc.. and it’ll allow you to heavy attack. I’ve found the fire heavies usually miss.

A flame staff will have buffed light attacks from the fire passive, but the amount is too small to matter.

Fire staff = ST. lightning = aoe.

Turbine wrote: »

Is everyone forgetting, that you are gonna lose almost 900 weapon damage If you use 3 infused reduce cooldown For pots?
That is much more DMG Then a whole Set Like Clever Alchemist gives but with 110% uptime

Not really. 3x infused weapon/spell power jewellery is ~650, clever alchemist is ~650 weapon spell power for 20 seconds.

So clever alchemist + 3x infused potion cooldown jewellery is a wash with 3x infused weapon damage jewellery because they’re both the same amount of spell power/weapon damage, and the clever alchemist is practically 100% uptime. That’s why you go argonian and clever alchemist becomes your sustain set.

Say instead of trying some funky potion you go with tri-stat pots. Each potion is 7k of each stat I think it is?

7k primary stat plus 4k argonian every 45 seconds = 250 mag/sec = 500 effective primary stat regen

7k primary stat plus 4k argonian every 21 seconds = 550 mag/sec = 1100 primary stat regen

So the with the infused potion speed jewellery clever alchemist with tri stat pots ends up being equal to 600 regen in every stat.

Don’t look at it as a damage set but the combo as a sustain set. That’s why I think it’d work best on a DK, they don’t have good sustain passives like other classes so it becomes a better way to sustain.

Iskiab wrote: »

Turbine wrote: »

Is everyone forgetting, that you are gonna lose almost 900 weapon damage If you use 3 infused reduce cooldown For pots?
That is much more DMG Then a whole Set Like Clever Alchemist gives but with 110% uptime

Not really. 3x infused weapon/spell power jewellery is ~650, clever alchemist is ~650 weapon spell power for 20 seconds.

You lose 834 spd/wpd + the dmg from whatever else set you could run instead of CA + dmg from better racial passives.

Yes, you can get decent sustain, if you use tri pots on cd, but there are other ways to build for enough sustain while having better dmg for much less cost.

The only good reason to go infused pot cd glyphs + CA would be to get higher uptime of short but very powerful pot effects like vitality or immovability or to combine 2 different pots, such as spell power and recovery + minor heroism or protection - but then the costs pretty much explode.

I've had a lot of fun in the past with a CA/pot cd magblade, but that was before they nerfed lingering health/speed pots, which weren't that expensive so the cost was still somewhat reasonable.

CA might still be a decent set for a regular build.

universal_wrath wrote: »

Maybe remove the conditional activivation for the set. Let the set be used outside of combat like it was before. Currently set can only be used in active combat making it lose its intended purpose which is a rush of massive weapon and spell dmg for short period of time.

I mean, you only have to start combat for a millisecond for proc to be available.

It was stupid broken as a gank set obviously so the activation only during combat was because it wasn't used for its initial purpose.

They wanted it to be a brawler/burst set. They said so in one of the patch notes and the health bonus should support their initial design intentions.

Problem is it was used quasi-explicitely as a gank set which wasn't its intended purpose.

brandonv516 wrote: »

CleymenZero wrote: »

universal_wrath wrote: »

Maybe remove the conditional activivation for the set. Let the set be used outside of combat like it was before. Currently set can only be used in active combat making it lose its intended purpose which is a rush of massive weapon and spell dmg for short period of time.

I mean, you only have to start combat for a millisecond for proc to be available.

It was stupid broken as a gank set obviously so the activation only during combat was because it wasn't used for its initial purpose.

They wanted it to be a brawler/burst set. They said so in one of the patch notes and the health bonus should support their initial design intentions.

Problem is it was used quasi-explicitely as a gank set which wasn't its intended purpose.

It was changed to "in combat only" because players on PC had it equipped, chugged a potion, and then put on another offensive set through add-ons. Then ganked.

NMA is very similar in power to CA so the ganking aspect of the set is no longer the issue. It's the power of add-ons that prevents this set from reverting.

Ahh I remember now yeah that was why they switched clever alchemist.

Still, NMA in a brawl may have similar power to CA but in burst scenarios, it does not. CA is pretty much 30% than NMA so fine, similar power over the entire duration of CA buff + cool-down but I'd say 30% is significant.

Alky is fine as is.

The only real issue with Alky is that the only strong set to use in tangent with it is Essence Thief.

The 186 spd/wpd difference won't result in much more than 2-3% dmg difference either, so even for pure burst, NMA is pretty close with the potential to pull slightly ahead in comparison to CA.