SUPER Excited for Greymoor, BUT Wood Elf decreased detection radius passive, when???

Nerouyn · February 2020

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

I changed my Bosmer thief to a Khajiit namee Grumpy Ex Wood Elf.

That's what they wanted people to do.

We would surmise that their deranged fantasy was that everyone would race change to Khajiit and then spend a fortune buying Khajiit homes, furniture etc.

Also since they only gave 3 freebie race and name changes, buy a tonne of those to fix all of their extra characters. I'd have needed 9 to escape all of the new racial passives which I despise.

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

But I haven't really enjoyed playing him since.

But like you discovered, people enjoy what they enjoy. I think a lot of people just stopped playing. There were far fewer viewers for this year's big reveal than last.

I don't mind Khajiit. I had several even when their passives were craptastic. No nightblades though unfortunately.

I wouldn't hate having a Khajiit nightblade. I almost used one of the 3 extra character slots with Elsweyr on one. But I feel like changing the race of any of my characters would be buying into ESO's racist ***.

Racial passives I don't like, I don't spend any points on. I put up with being handicapped. Most PvE content is trivially easy anyway.

But it's another reason not to pvp, raid etc.

zaria · February 2020

Jaraal wrote: »

Lady_Linux wrote: »

well you cant detect stealth without stealth detection so you did see them detect stealtth so stealth detection was used.

pretty clear to me they did

Well, that was the furriest Bosmer I ever saw, then.

Nice that he was able to close his eyes and put 3 skill points into it before the next attack!

The guy was an very obvious Nord. He was not an Khajiit

In game solution in that setting would be to lay down AOE, that would be standard if we get an dungeon with stealthed enemies.

For Argonians, well moving poison resistance to Borsmers while having an quest in Elsweyr there an Argonian managed to save his Khajiit comrades as he was more resistant to poison was pretty idiotic.
Note he was not immune, he just took less damage and needed an antidote to move in with you.

Cundu_Ertur · February 2020

It is apparent that the current crew of devs has not the slightest interest in maintaining any consistency with lore, not even the lore presented in their own game. Argonians need poison resistance back (and more besides), and Bosmer need to get their stealth back and lose that complete uselessness that is detection.

Jaraal · February 2020

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

It is apparent that the current crew of devs has not the slightest interest in maintaining any consistency with lore, not even the lore presented in their own game.

Yeah, I'd be interested to hear what the original loremaster Lawrence Schick thinks about the current retcon faire and the dismissal of decades of TES lore with the wave of a hand. The new guy (forgot his name) popped in and said "Hi" last March.... and was never heard from again. Does he even still work for Zenimax? I have no idea.

Vevvev · February 2020

To be honest I think stealth detection works better on Khajiit than Bosmer. Khajiit have the night eye power in other TES games that lets them see in the dark, which would obviously mean they can see hidden things better. It would be more lore friendly if they flipped the current Khajiit and Bosmer racial passives.

Nerouyn · February 2020

Vevvev wrote: »

To be honest I think stealth detection works better on Khajiit than Bosmer. Khajiit have the night eye power in other TES games that lets them see in the dark, which would obviously mean they can see hidden things better. It would be more lore friendly if they flipped the current Khajiit and Bosmer racial passives.

That makes sense.

So we wouldn't expect it to happen.

Then again, possibly part of their motivation to nerf Bosmer in the year of Elsweyr was to drive people to play kitties instead.

Elsweyr is over.

Mr_Walker · February 2020

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

5. Achieve the above goals while still obeying our rich and structured lore and storytelling.

#5... lol what a bunch of.

Starlight_Knight · February 2020

I agree, ZOS have done many nonsensical changes that in my opinion need to be reversed - but this is by far the top of the list.
The Bosmer losing their stealth passive is damaging to class association, player relationships with their class, and lore.

I don't even play Bosmer and i despise this change, it was clearly only done to make the Khajiit more attractive for the Elsweyr chapter.... As the op said; its been a year now ZOS - Sort it out!

x48rph · February 2020

Starlight_Knight wrote: »

I agree, ZOS have done many nonsensical changes that in my opinion need to be reversed - but this is by far the top of the list.
The Bosmer losing their stealth passive is damaging to class association, player relationships with their class, and lore.

I don't even play Bosmer and i despise this change, it was clearly only done to make the Khajiit more attractive for the Elsweyr chapter.... As the op said; its been a year now ZOS - Sort it out!

Pretty much that. It was a marketing ploy in my opinion. Sort of like why we're getting the Vampire lord and Skyrim even though vampire lord makes no sense in eso times. It's cause they had such a dismal year last year thanks mostly to the combat team that they needed something spectacular to lure people back and entice all the skyrim fanboys. Like someone else pointed out, you can tell the loss of players by those livestream numbers this year alone., though I can tell by the list of friends and guildies who haven't logged in for months.

And let me end this by saying they can start fixing crap by giving bosmer back their stealth!!!!

max_only · February 2020

Honestly this is still the top of my list.
Anything else I’d want is secondary.

Commancho · February 2020

Wood Elf is a hunter, Khajit is a thief. It's been always like that and its lore friendly. Stealing is random anyway and there are several sets which can reduce your detection range to the point where you crouch in front of the guards and they can't see you without cloaking or using pots. Altough I don't really care, good luck with your crusade xD

elven.were_wolf · February 2020

When I say bring back the Stealth radius reduction, I also mean excluding the damage from stealth. I just want to be able to play thief again without switching up my whole armor set to steal something. And Wood Elves are not just hunters, their also sneaky. Stealth detect passive ignores their sneaky side, while stealth radius reduction applies on both hunting and sneaking.

Edit: Not to mention khajiit have 5% more pickpocket chance on top of the sneak passive…
Having one race for stealth AND thieving is just sad and just ignores Wood Elf thieving lore, which is btw mentioned in Dominion quests all the time…

Ratzkifal · February 2020

max_only wrote: »

Honestly this is still the top of my list.
Anything else I’d want is secondary.

I second this.
What they are doing to vampires pales in comparison to Bosmer stealth. It would be on a similar level if they had taken Bbood completely out of the equation because Werewolves already have bleeds or something...

And while we are at it, give Argonians their poison resistance back. Having both resistances on them honestly doesn't hurt balance. Nords get more physical resistance than Argonians have disease resistance and that reduces both disease and poison damage, so it really can't be argued that it would be too op to have two resistances.

NotaDaedraWorshipper · February 2020

Very few things related to ESO has made me angry but this is one of them. A completely useless removal that goes against years of lore, the complete disregard from ZoS with barely any responses regarding the anger of it, and their blatant insulting "reasoning" for removing the stealth (A_Silverius linked it earlier) is disgusting.

It didn't even stop with the Bosmer, no they had to do it with the Argonians too. Their widely known immunity/high resistance to poison gone in a flash, and where did it go? To the Bosmer.

It would be more lore friendly if Khajiit and Bosmer made a switch with their racials. Khajiit has been known for their agility and ability to see in the dark. That sounds like detection and rolling to me! But they both could have stealth bonus, I don't even understand why both can't. It's not like Orcs are alone with having racials that supports their fighting, nor are Altmer alone with having bonuses to using magic.
Even switching the resistances between Bosmer and Argonians is more lore friendly. Disease for Bosmer and poison for Argonians. Though I think argonians should have both.

Faulgor wrote: »

I'm impressed you people still continue to bring that up. I wish Argonians had such vocal advocates.

Keep fighting, little guys!

I fight strongly for both! ✊

Faulgor · February 2020

Jaraal wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

It is apparent that the current crew of devs has not the slightest interest in maintaining any consistency with lore, not even the lore presented in their own game.

Yeah, I'd be interested to hear what the original loremaster Lawrence Schick thinks about the current retcon faire and the dismissal of decades of TES lore with the wave of a hand. The new guy (forgot his name) popped in and said "Hi" last March.... and was never heard from again. Does he even still work for Zenimax? I have no idea.

Leamon Tuttle is his name, and as far as I can tell he's a damn fine fit for the job. Besides, these race changes were still done with Schick at the lore-helm. Apparently there's just no interest at the manager/producer level to revise these changes, all our input be damned.

I recall making a lengthy post about the lore accuracy of the changes in the first round of PTS testing.
As far as I can tell, out of the improvements I suggested, they only changed Dunmer's attributes.

Of course I'm still most upset with the changes to Bosmer, but the other races have issues as well ... Argonians never should have been made into tanks/healers as they used to be skirmishers (why no stamina bonus?), Nords have almost no offensive qualities despite being canonically the physically strongest race, Imperials interpersonal skills are not reflected at all, and Orcs sprint bonus is a complete joke as they have been the slowest race in previous games.
If anyone should have a speed bonus, it's Bosmer. At least the roll dodge requirement should be removed from their passive.

Opalblade · February 2020

I still hope they look at racial passives again. Bosmer without stealth and Argonians without poison resist make no sense. Surely there's at least one person on the dev team that realizes the passives aren't matching up to what is said in game.

Jaraal · February 2020

Faulgor wrote: »

Leamon Tuttle is his name, and as far as I can tell he's a damn fine fit for the job. Besides, these race changes were still done with Schick at the lore-helm. Apparently there's just no interest at the manager/producer level to revise these changes, all our input be damned.

Actually, Schick made his departure known publicly in the same month that Update 21 (racial rebalance) dropped. I highly doubt that he would set these curious changes in motion and then quit right as they were being finalized. It's more likely that he disapproved of these changes, and desired to get his name as far away from them as possible. Of course, the official statements say nothing about it, so we can only speculate. But I think the timing of these events says a lot.

It's also interesting to note that community managers said they would explain to us how Sai Sahan (and soon Lyris Titanborn) came back from the dead to lead their respective chapters.... but no explanation ever came. There was an attempt to explain the sudden appearance of dragons in the Age Of Man, but it seems to raise more questions than it actually answered. But with the latest Legion Zero / Yokudan / Transformers / alliance fiasco, it's hard to take any of the new lore seriously at this point.

Thevampirenight · February 2020

Jaraal wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Leamon Tuttle is his name, and as far as I can tell he's a damn fine fit for the job. Besides, these race changes were still done with Schick at the lore-helm. Apparently there's just no interest at the manager/producer level to revise these changes, all our input be damned.

Actually, Schick made his departure known publicly in the same month that Update 21 (racial rebalance) dropped. I highly doubt that he would set these curious changes in motion and then quit right as they were being finalized. It's more likely that he disapproved of these changes, and desired to get his name as far away from them as possible. Of course, the official statements say nothing about it, so we can only speculate. But I think the timing of these events says a lot.

It's also interesting to note that community managers said they would explain to us how Sai Sahan (and soon Lyris Titanborn) came back from the dead to lead their respective chapters.... but no explanation ever came. There was an attempt to explain the sudden appearance of dragons in the Age Of Man, but it seems to raise more questions than it actually answered. But with the latest Legion Zero / Yokudan / Transformers / alliance fiasco, it's hard to take any of the new lore seriously at this point.

Hmm well it kinda makes sense how they were able to come back to Life. There is two theories for this you can pick which one is more believable to you.
In the Dragonborn of Tes 5 if you got killed while in a Blackbook you just got sent back to Solstheim. Maybe being killed in Oblivion and if that person still has ties to Mundus get sent back instead that is one theory. Another is the way time works in Oblivion when that very important choice happened where you had to pick to sacrifice one of them. The way it might have worked could be that every one of them got used for the Ritual where all three died in different versions of the same event and all three didn't die in different versions of the same event given the nature of time in Oblivion. This also caused all three of them to not be sacrificed since all the different outcomes and choice all came true so all three maybe made it out.

The Second Theory to me at least makes the sense to me because lore wise time doesn't work the same way in Oblivion. Thus can lead to outcomes where all three got sacrificed and all three didn't get sacrificed. Yeah Time is Wacky in Oblivion that is Tes lore for you. But it is interesting and unique for sure.

As for the Bosmer Stealth detection passive it should be more of a khajiit passive because they have after all a very good cat like nose that could allow that to happen. So I do think some of the Bosmer and Khajiit Passives should be flipped.

One day maybe if the feed back keeps coming back to please give Bosmer their stealth back they can add it back in but hopefully flip the two races passives.

Cundu_Ertur · February 2020

Commancho wrote: »

Wood Elf is a hunter, Khajit is a thief. It's been always like that and its lore friendly. Stealing is random anyway and there are several sets which can reduce your detection range to the point where you crouch in front of the guards and they can't see you without cloaking or using pots. Altough I don't really care, good luck with your crusade xD

Actually, no. I really can't find any lore to support the myth that Bosmer are perceptive hunters. There are multiple references to the Rite of Theft and Bosmer stealth (Valenwood: A Study, War Customs of the Tribal Bosmer, The Wood Elves of Valenwood, and more besides). Bosmer in lore are known for two things: their stealth (and penchant for thievery) and their unmatched skill at using a bow. Neither of these is represented in the current racial passives.

As for swapping with Khajiit (which is mentioned in someone else's later post), that is inappropriate as well. They are, consistently, the second best race at thievery, and even if it is not as culturally important to Khajiit as it is for Bosmer, it is still an important aspect of Khajiiti culture. Both races should have a bonus to hiding. If anything, Argonians should have a smaller bonus to it, too, since they are consistently the third best race at thievery. The detection bonus has not the slightest mention in the lore, it has never existed previously, and it has no precedent. It should not have ever been introduced and it should be removed as a racial ability for all races. No-one should have to struggle with its utter uselessness.

Bottom line:
For Bosmer return the hiding bonus and throw away the detection bonus.
For Argonians return the poison resistance in addition to their current disease resistance (but leave the immunity as it is), and I would like to see .5m hiding bonus per rank of Resourceful and their healing bonus bumped to 2/5/10% to reflect the increase to set bonuses that happened around the same time.

Jaraal · February 2020

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Actually, no. I really can't find any lore to support the myth that Bosmer are perceptive hunters. There are multiple references to the Rite of Theft and Bosmer stealth (Valenwood: A Study, War Customs of the Tribal Bosmer, The Wood Elves of Valenwood, and more besides). Bosmer in lore are known for two things: their stealth (and penchant for thievery) and their unmatched skill at using a bow. Neither of these is represented in the current racial passives.

And it's interesting that these references are still in the game, although according to the latest combat team Bosmer are not stealthy, but actually some kind of elven cops that seek out the stealthed.

And if it seems odd to those of us who have been around TES world for the past 20 years, imagine how confusing such dialogue must be to the new folks who roll Bosmer characters and think wood elves are Forest Justice Warriors.

BlueRaven · February 2020

Commancho wrote: »

Wood Elf is a hunter, Khajit is a thief. It's been always like that and its lore friendly. Stealing is random anyway and there are several sets which can reduce your detection range to the point where you crouch in front of the guards and they can't see you without cloaking or using pots. Altough I don't really care, good luck with your crusade xD

Bosmers aren’t stealthy because they all go to the same tailor, they are stealthy by their upbringing and social norms.

anadandy · February 2020

Lore aside, I'm still waiting for an acknowledgement that Bosmer gave up their stealth for a passive that is only useful in PVP - and even then marginally so because its been bugged. (Also never addressed).

Only one class rep at the time brought up our concerns and it was brushed off with a "oh yeah we'll come up with some new stealth stuff kinda maybe someday." Zero acknowledgement of the uselessness in PVE. And a year later the only "new stealth" stuff we have is Darloc Brae - a set that dropped in the new DLC. Curious, that...

BigBragg · February 2020

Yeah, ZOS should still feel bad about this one. It's a broken change on every level.

Ri_Khan · February 2020

Oh they'll definitely be sweeping this one under the rug too. Can't keep having a nasty blemish like this rearing it's ugly head again.

Ratzkifal · February 2020

anadandy wrote: »

Lore aside, I'm still waiting for an acknowledgement that Bosmer gave up their stealth for a passive that is only useful in PVP - and even then marginally so because its been bugged. (Also never addressed).

Only one class rep at the time brought up our concerns and it was brushed off with a "oh yeah we'll come up with some new stealth stuff kinda maybe someday." Zero acknowledgement of the uselessness in PVE. And a year later the only "new stealth" stuff we have is Darloc Brae - a set that dropped in the new DLC. Curious, that...

Oh yeah, I remember that. How they basically told us "don't worry we got this" and proceeded to not "get this" at all and then completely forgot about "opening up stealth to more races", which is still not addressing our points at all.

Jaraal · February 2020

Ratzkifal wrote: »

"opening up stealth to more races", which is still not addressing our points at all.

Yes, even if they do some non-Bosmer specific thing like this, we will still be the least stealthy race in the game, because having permanent stealth detection (for those who actually spend the skill points for the passive) actually alerts hidden enemy PvPers to our presence long before any other race. Their detection "eye", when crouched, will partially open when a Bosmer with Hunter's Eye (and supposedly increased detection range) approaches much sooner.... whether the Bosmer actually sees them or not.

And even Imperials are stealthier, with their racial sneak cost reduction! There is nothing that "opening up stealth to more races" can do to repair the lore, and give us our rightful excellence at being sneaky.

Ratzkifal · February 2020

Jaraal wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

"opening up stealth to more races", which is still not addressing our points at all.

Yes, even if they do some non-Bosmer specific thing like this, we will still be the least stealthy race in the game, because having permanent stealth detection (for those who actually spend the skill points for the passive) actually alerts hidden enemy PvPers to our presence long before any other race. Their detection "eye", when crouched, will partially open when a Bosmer with Hunter's Eye (and supposedly increased detection range) approaches much sooner.... whether the Bosmer actually sees them or not.

And even Imperials are stealthier, with their racial sneak cost reduction! There is nothing that "opening up stealth to more races" can do to repair the lore, and give us our rightful excellence at being sneaky.

Not to mention all the bugs regarding it. I think I'll go and dig up the screenshots I made back then...

Jaraal · February 2020

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

"opening up stealth to more races", which is still not addressing our points at all.

Yes, even if they do some non-Bosmer specific thing like this, we will still be the least stealthy race in the game, because having permanent stealth detection (for those who actually spend the skill points for the passive) actually alerts hidden enemy PvPers to our presence long before any other race. Their detection "eye", when crouched, will partially open when a Bosmer with Hunter's Eye (and supposedly increased detection range) approaches much sooner.... whether the Bosmer actually sees them or not.

And even Imperials are stealthier, with their racial sneak cost reduction! There is nothing that "opening up stealth to more races" can do to repair the lore, and give us our rightful excellence at being sneaky.

Not to mention all the bugs regarding it. I think I'll go and dig up the screenshots I made back then...

Here you are, good sir! Unfortunate that such an informative thread was closed.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5999677/#Comment_5999677

Ratzkifal · February 2020

Basically recreating/reposting my old post, because I can't quote it thanks to the thread being locked.

Test1: No medium Armor on both, the one with the red orbs has 3/3 Hunter's Eye.

Without wearing any armor, the "danger" indicator is nonexistant for the person being revealed. You go from completely hidden straight to full reveal. However there is some very wonky behavior as I am constantly going "hidden" again since no combat is happening, only to be immediately detected as soon as the indicator goes to "hidden" without any of us moving. This is when sneaking face toward face. The fennec fox pet was friendly enough to not go into stealth, so you can still tell where my sneaking Bosmer friend is. Note that he is not standing on top of the flag but slightly behind it (there is room for about another crouching Bosmer between him and the flag).

Test2: One has full medium armor with passives, the other with the red orbs has 3/3 Hunter's Eye

This time the Bosmer without the Hunter's Eye passive put on 7 pieces of medium armor, none of which interact with detection nor stealth beyond the medium armor passive. As you can clearly see, the Bosmer without Hunter's Eye is made aware of a nearby enemy through the "danger" indicator - the half opened eye. The Bosmer with Hunter's eye is still hidden and has no idea an enemy even exists in the area. This time the helpful fox behaved and went properly into hiding. The duel flag is touching the Hunter's Eye Bosmer's heel this time.

Ratzkifal · February 2020

Jaraal wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

"opening up stealth to more races", which is still not addressing our points at all.

Yes, even if they do some non-Bosmer specific thing like this, we will still be the least stealthy race in the game, because having permanent stealth detection (for those who actually spend the skill points for the passive) actually alerts hidden enemy PvPers to our presence long before any other race. Their detection "eye", when crouched, will partially open when a Bosmer with Hunter's Eye (and supposedly increased detection range) approaches much sooner.... whether the Bosmer actually sees them or not.

And even Imperials are stealthier, with their racial sneak cost reduction! There is nothing that "opening up stealth to more races" can do to repair the lore, and give us our rightful excellence at being sneaky.

Not to mention all the bugs regarding it. I think I'll go and dig up the screenshots I made back then...

Here you are, good sir! Unfortunate that such an informative thread was closed.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5999677/#Comment_5999677

Thanks, I quickly found it through google. Apparently it's the first picture coming up when you google "woodelf stealth passive detection" and go to image results