SUPER Excited for Greymoor, BUT Wood Elf decreased detection radius passive, when???

Ratzkifal

I also found @anadandy's upload and proof that Bosmer detection doesn't even work in PvE on enemies that do go invisible.

Commancho

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Actually, no. I really can't find any lore to support the myth that Bosmer are perceptive hunters. There are multiple references to the Rite of Theft and Bosmer stealth (Valenwood: A Study, War Customs of the Tribal Bosmer, The Wood Elves of Valenwood, and more besides). Bosmer in lore are known for two things: their stealth (and penchant for thievery) and their unmatched skill at using a bow. Neither of these is represented in the current racial passives.

LOL and someone even upvoted this! Bosmers are bow masters, hunters, they grow up in the forests, where are wild animals, predators, so they learn how to survive from childhood... In TES series, Wood Elves have unique ability which calms down wild animals. They are not born thieves, they just have amazing survival skills which are learnt ability since physicaly they are not better than any elven race, which makes them a potential awesome thieves, but only a few outcasts go this path... From the other hand we have Khajits, who are as much respected traders as thieves, drug addicts and smooth talkers... They have a natural talent, because they are cats, they are agile, they can move quiet and they can see in the dark..... You can say whatever you want to, but lorewise everything is correct....

BlueRaven

Commancho wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Actually, no. I really can't find any lore to support the myth that Bosmer are perceptive hunters. There are multiple references to the Rite of Theft and Bosmer stealth (Valenwood: A Study, War Customs of the Tribal Bosmer, The Wood Elves of Valenwood, and more besides). Bosmer in lore are known for two things: their stealth (and penchant for thievery) and their unmatched skill at using a bow. Neither of these is represented in the current racial passives.

LOL and someone even upvoted this! Bosmers are bow masters, hunters, they grow up in the forests, where are wild animals, predators, so they learn how to survive from childhood... In TES series, Wood Elves have unique ability which calms down wild animals. They are not born thieves, they just have amazing survival skills which are learnt ability since physicaly they are not better than any elven race, which makes them a potential awesome thieves, but only a few outcasts go this path... From the other hand we have Khajits, who are as much respected traders as thieves, drug addicts and smooth talkers... They have a natural talent, because they are cats, they are agile, they can move quiet and they can see in the dark..... You can say whatever you want to, but lorewise everything is correct....

You can’t just assert things and post them as true, because people can show lore stating how stealthy bosmer are, but when it comes to detecting stealth not so much. The only race that is associated with better eyesight are Kahjits (not that I would be mean enough to give a passive as horrible as Hunters Eye to any race).

Ratzkifal

Commancho wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Actually, no. I really can't find any lore to support the myth that Bosmer are perceptive hunters. There are multiple references to the Rite of Theft and Bosmer stealth (Valenwood: A Study, War Customs of the Tribal Bosmer, The Wood Elves of Valenwood, and more besides). Bosmer in lore are known for two things: their stealth (and penchant for thievery) and their unmatched skill at using a bow. Neither of these is represented in the current racial passives.

LOL and someone even upvoted this! Bosmers are bow masters, hunters, they grow up in the forests, where are wild animals, predators, so they learn how to survive from childhood... In TES series, Wood Elves have unique ability which calms down wild animals. They are not born thieves, they just have amazing survival skills which are learnt ability since physicaly they are not better than any elven race, which makes them a potential awesome thieves, but only a few outcasts go this path... From the other hand we have Khajits, who are as much respected traders as thieves, drug addicts and smooth talkers... They have a natural talent, because they are cats, they are agile, they can move quiet and they can see in the dark..... You can say whatever you want to, but lorewise everything is correct....

No. Do we really have to say this again?

Bosmer learn to be thieves from childhood by practising the Rite of Theft. The Rite of literal Theft. You steal something big or valuable, something with prestige and then ask for a ransome. This is part of their culture. The Bosmer have been practising this for thousands of years. Nobody bats an eye when it happens. There are even quests about it in ESO. What point are you even trying to make here?
If it is animal handling you are looking for then ask ZOS about a system like that and that Bosmer should be better at that (and rightfully so), but that doesn't disprove that they are very good at stealth and being thieves. Oh and. Hunting. You need to be good at stealth to be successful at hunting, otherwise your prey simply spots you and runs off. And if you are being preyed on by predators, then stealth is also kind of a very useful adaptation to have.

Khajiit on the other hand are being discriminated against for being beastfolk and driven into a life of crime, outside their home province. Of course some of them are indeed good at being criminals and their love for skooma and moonsugar make them predisposed to this lifestyle as well. They are dexterous and have good night vision, giving them an advantage in lockpicking, pickpocketing and during the night, the time of day when thieves can more easily stay hidden. And you are right on that, this makes Khajiit good thieves, but this just shows that Khajiit and Bosmer both share this niche and it's nonsensical to claim that it should only belong to one or the other.
But may I add, they removed acrobatics in Skyrim, which was Khajiits' traditional core strength before, they had to make up for it and give them something else. They gave them increased sneaking instead, which made sense as it benefitted their other remaining strengths. That is the only reason Khajiit were better at sneaking in Skyrim than Bosmer, before that it was always the other way around. And at least before Wrathstone they were on equal grounds in ESO as well, as it should be once again.

Ratzkifal

BlueRaven wrote: »

Commancho wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Actually, no. I really can't find any lore to support the myth that Bosmer are perceptive hunters. There are multiple references to the Rite of Theft and Bosmer stealth (Valenwood: A Study, War Customs of the Tribal Bosmer, The Wood Elves of Valenwood, and more besides). Bosmer in lore are known for two things: their stealth (and penchant for thievery) and their unmatched skill at using a bow. Neither of these is represented in the current racial passives.

LOL and someone even upvoted this! Bosmers are bow masters, hunters, they grow up in the forests, where are wild animals, predators, so they learn how to survive from childhood... In TES series, Wood Elves have unique ability which calms down wild animals. They are not born thieves, they just have amazing survival skills which are learnt ability since physicaly they are not better than any elven race, which makes them a potential awesome thieves, but only a few outcasts go this path... From the other hand we have Khajits, who are as much respected traders as thieves, drug addicts and smooth talkers... They have a natural talent, because they are cats, they are agile, they can move quiet and they can see in the dark..... You can say whatever you want to, but lorewise everything is correct....

You can’t just assert things and post them as true, because people can show lore stating how stealthy bosmer are, but when it comes to detecting stealth not so much. The only race that is associated with better eyesight are Kahjits (not that I would be mean enough to give a passive as horrible as Hunters Eye to any race).

And Woodorcs, who had to adapt to sneaky stealthy Bosmer stealing everything from their camps.

Cundu_Ertur

Commancho wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Actually, no. I really can't find any lore to support the myth that Bosmer are perceptive hunters. There are multiple references to the Rite of Theft and Bosmer stealth (Valenwood: A Study, War Customs of the Tribal Bosmer, The Wood Elves of Valenwood, and more besides). Bosmer in lore are known for two things: their stealth (and penchant for thievery) and their unmatched skill at using a bow. Neither of these is represented in the current racial passives.

LOL and someone even upvoted this! Bosmers are bow masters, hunters, they grow up in the forests, where are wild animals, predators, so they learn how to survive from childhood... In TES series, Wood Elves have unique ability which calms down wild animals. They are not born thieves, they just have amazing survival skills which are learnt ability since physicaly they are not better than any elven race, which makes them a potential awesome thieves, but only a few outcasts go this path... From the other hand we have Khajits, who are as much respected traders as thieves, drug addicts and smooth talkers... They have a natural talent, because they are cats, they are agile, they can move quiet and they can see in the dark..... You can say whatever you want to, but lorewise everything is correct....

Your lore source for "potential awesome thieves, but only a few outcasts go this path" which directly contradicts 'War Customs of the Tribal Bosmer,' 'The Green Pact and the Dominion,' and 'Heroes of the Sanctuary?' Not to mention previous games, which you refer to when you bring up the active ability to Command Animals -- in every such game 'thief' is brought up as a favorite class for which Bosmer are well suited. You also fail to note that in the TES series Bosmer received THE MOST racial bonuses to thief skills across all games that had racial passives. You do note (correctly) that Bosmer are supposed to be 'bow masters.' How is that reflected in ESO? By Orcs, Dunmer, Redguards, and Imperials being better at actually USING bows. The fact is, Bosmer DO NOT EXIST in this game.

JobooAGS

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Commancho wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Actually, no. I really can't find any lore to support the myth that Bosmer are perceptive hunters. There are multiple references to the Rite of Theft and Bosmer stealth (Valenwood: A Study, War Customs of the Tribal Bosmer, The Wood Elves of Valenwood, and more besides). Bosmer in lore are known for two things: their stealth (and penchant for thievery) and their unmatched skill at using a bow. Neither of these is represented in the current racial passives.

LOL and someone even upvoted this! Bosmers are bow masters, hunters, they grow up in the forests, where are wild animals, predators, so they learn how to survive from childhood... In TES series, Wood Elves have unique ability which calms down wild animals. They are not born thieves, they just have amazing survival skills which are learnt ability since physicaly they are not better than any elven race, which makes them a potential awesome thieves, but only a few outcasts go this path... From the other hand we have Khajits, who are as much respected traders as thieves, drug addicts and smooth talkers... They have a natural talent, because they are cats, they are agile, they can move quiet and they can see in the dark..... You can say whatever you want to, but lorewise everything is correct....

Your lore source for "potential awesome thieves, but only a few outcasts go this path" which directly contradicts 'War Customs of the Tribal Bosmer,' 'The Green Pact and the Dominion,' and 'Heroes of the Sanctuary?' Not to mention previous games, which you refer to when you bring up the active ability to Command Animals -- in every such game 'thief' is brought up as a favorite class for which Bosmer are well suited. You also fail to note that in the TES series Bosmer received THE MOST racial bonuses to thief skills across all games that had racial passives. You do note (correctly) that Bosmer are supposed to be 'bow masters.' How is that reflected in ESO? By Orcs, Dunmer, Redguards, and Imperials being better at actually USING bows. The fact is, Bosmer DO NOT EXIST in this game.

Bows are weapons and therefore in the redguard’s domain. But if skills were a grade system it should be more like bosmer gets an A+ while redguard gets an A and everyone else is lower/follows suit for bow usage. Likewise for swords, redguard should get an A+ while the rest follow suit.

Ratzkifal

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Commancho wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Actually, no. I really can't find any lore to support the myth that Bosmer are perceptive hunters. There are multiple references to the Rite of Theft and Bosmer stealth (Valenwood: A Study, War Customs of the Tribal Bosmer, The Wood Elves of Valenwood, and more besides). Bosmer in lore are known for two things: their stealth (and penchant for thievery) and their unmatched skill at using a bow. Neither of these is represented in the current racial passives.

LOL and someone even upvoted this! Bosmers are bow masters, hunters, they grow up in the forests, where are wild animals, predators, so they learn how to survive from childhood... In TES series, Wood Elves have unique ability which calms down wild animals. They are not born thieves, they just have amazing survival skills which are learnt ability since physicaly they are not better than any elven race, which makes them a potential awesome thieves, but only a few outcasts go this path... From the other hand we have Khajits, who are as much respected traders as thieves, drug addicts and smooth talkers... They have a natural talent, because they are cats, they are agile, they can move quiet and they can see in the dark..... You can say whatever you want to, but lorewise everything is correct....

Your lore source for "potential awesome thieves, but only a few outcasts go this path" which directly contradicts 'War Customs of the Tribal Bosmer,' 'The Green Pact and the Dominion,' and 'Heroes of the Sanctuary?' Not to mention previous games, which you refer to when you bring up the active ability to Command Animals -- in every such game 'thief' is brought up as a favorite class for which Bosmer are well suited. You also fail to note that in the TES series Bosmer received THE MOST racial bonuses to thief skills across all games that had racial passives. You do note (correctly) that Bosmer are supposed to be 'bow masters.' How is that reflected in ESO? By Orcs, Dunmer, Redguards, and Imperials being better at actually USING bows. The fact is, Bosmer DO NOT EXIST in this game.

Completely agree except for the second to last sentence because we just don't have current data on that anymore. There have been too many indirect changes to the racial balance by messing with the internal balance between damage and sustain for us to confidently claim that it's still true now. There have been damage nerfs to low sustain races with the food changes and in Dragonhold sustain is rather low, so Bosmer might actually be competing with them on bows. Oh and they are definitely better than Imperials in that regard. Imperials are just better at stealth now, which makes little sense.

Jenzi

Im truly bitter about this still. I’m actually really angry that they haven’t reverted this abysmal decision yet. There was no reason for it, it completely breaks the long established ESO lore, and the community has complained non stop about it ever since it was done. If it was to sell Elsweyr and Khajiit, that ship has sailed now, give us our stealth back already.

Cundu_Ertur

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Commancho wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Actually, no. I really can't find any lore to support the myth that Bosmer are perceptive hunters. There are multiple references to the Rite of Theft and Bosmer stealth (Valenwood: A Study, War Customs of the Tribal Bosmer, The Wood Elves of Valenwood, and more besides). Bosmer in lore are known for two things: their stealth (and penchant for thievery) and their unmatched skill at using a bow. Neither of these is represented in the current racial passives.

LOL and someone even upvoted this! Bosmers are bow masters, hunters, they grow up in the forests, where are wild animals, predators, so they learn how to survive from childhood... In TES series, Wood Elves have unique ability which calms down wild animals. They are not born thieves, they just have amazing survival skills which are learnt ability since physicaly they are not better than any elven race, which makes them a potential awesome thieves, but only a few outcasts go this path... From the other hand we have Khajits, who are as much respected traders as thieves, drug addicts and smooth talkers... They have a natural talent, because they are cats, they are agile, they can move quiet and they can see in the dark..... You can say whatever you want to, but lorewise everything is correct....

Your lore source for "potential awesome thieves, but only a few outcasts go this path" which directly contradicts 'War Customs of the Tribal Bosmer,' 'The Green Pact and the Dominion,' and 'Heroes of the Sanctuary?' Not to mention previous games, which you refer to when you bring up the active ability to Command Animals -- in every such game 'thief' is brought up as a favorite class for which Bosmer are well suited. You also fail to note that in the TES series Bosmer received THE MOST racial bonuses to thief skills across all games that had racial passives. You do note (correctly) that Bosmer are supposed to be 'bow masters.' How is that reflected in ESO? By Orcs, Dunmer, Redguards, and Imperials being better at actually USING bows. The fact is, Bosmer DO NOT EXIST in this game.

Completely agree except for the second to last sentence because we just don't have current data on that anymore. There have been too many indirect changes to the racial balance by messing with the internal balance between damage and sustain for us to confidently claim that it's still true now. There have been damage nerfs to low sustain races with the food changes and in Dragonhold sustain is rather low, so Bosmer might actually be competing with them on bows. Oh and they are definitely better than Imperials in that regard. Imperials are just better at stealth now, which makes little sense.

Actually, even if you are correct that sustain is so great, then that applies to ALL weapons, not just bows; and my point remains. Bosmer aren't supposed to be masters of ALL weapons, only bows. Where there is mention of Bosmer swordmasters ('Words and Philosophy' comes to mind), in those cases mastery of the bow came naturally to the Bosmer but skill with any other weapon took significant effort.

Ratzkifal

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Commancho wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Actually, no. I really can't find any lore to support the myth that Bosmer are perceptive hunters. There are multiple references to the Rite of Theft and Bosmer stealth (Valenwood: A Study, War Customs of the Tribal Bosmer, The Wood Elves of Valenwood, and more besides). Bosmer in lore are known for two things: their stealth (and penchant for thievery) and their unmatched skill at using a bow. Neither of these is represented in the current racial passives.

LOL and someone even upvoted this! Bosmers are bow masters, hunters, they grow up in the forests, where are wild animals, predators, so they learn how to survive from childhood... In TES series, Wood Elves have unique ability which calms down wild animals. They are not born thieves, they just have amazing survival skills which are learnt ability since physicaly they are not better than any elven race, which makes them a potential awesome thieves, but only a few outcasts go this path... From the other hand we have Khajits, who are as much respected traders as thieves, drug addicts and smooth talkers... They have a natural talent, because they are cats, they are agile, they can move quiet and they can see in the dark..... You can say whatever you want to, but lorewise everything is correct....

Your lore source for "potential awesome thieves, but only a few outcasts go this path" which directly contradicts 'War Customs of the Tribal Bosmer,' 'The Green Pact and the Dominion,' and 'Heroes of the Sanctuary?' Not to mention previous games, which you refer to when you bring up the active ability to Command Animals -- in every such game 'thief' is brought up as a favorite class for which Bosmer are well suited. You also fail to note that in the TES series Bosmer received THE MOST racial bonuses to thief skills across all games that had racial passives. You do note (correctly) that Bosmer are supposed to be 'bow masters.' How is that reflected in ESO? By Orcs, Dunmer, Redguards, and Imperials being better at actually USING bows. The fact is, Bosmer DO NOT EXIST in this game.

Completely agree except for the second to last sentence because we just don't have current data on that anymore. There have been too many indirect changes to the racial balance by messing with the internal balance between damage and sustain for us to confidently claim that it's still true now. There have been damage nerfs to low sustain races with the food changes and in Dragonhold sustain is rather low, so Bosmer might actually be competing with them on bows. Oh and they are definitely better than Imperials in that regard. Imperials are just better at stealth now, which makes little sense.

Actually, even if you are correct that sustain is so great, then that applies to ALL weapons, not just bows; and my point remains. Bosmer aren't supposed to be masters of ALL weapons, only bows. Where there is mention of Bosmer swordmasters ('Words and Philosophy' comes to mind), in those cases mastery of the bow came naturally to the Bosmer but skill with any other weapon took significant effort.

Well they are good at knife throwing, since that has always been part of the Marksman skill and knife throwing is in the two weapons skill, so I'd still count that. But yeah, that's where the system reaches its narrative limits. I would prefer if Redguards only had reduced melee/stamina weapon costs or returned stamina only in melee range in terms of lore, but that's part of ZOS trying to open the races up to more build variety which is good thing in my book as a hobby theory crafter.

Commancho

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Bosmer learn to be thieves from childhood by practising the Rite of Theft. The Rite of literal Theft.

It's ancient tradition long time forgotten in second Era.

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Your lore source for "potential awesome thieves, but only a few outcasts go this path" which directly contradicts 'War Customs of the Tribal Bosmer,' 'The Green Pact and the Dominion,' and 'Heroes of the Sanctuary?'

No, it doesn't. These traditions doesnt even take a place in any former Elder Scroll tittles. In second Era, Wood Elves are just an usual criminals, marksmans and defenders of the Aldmeri Dominium.

Let me skip all this nonsense - it's MMO and they can't make two races to have same passives.

Cundu_Ertur

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Commancho wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Actually, no. I really can't find any lore to support the myth that Bosmer are perceptive hunters. There are multiple references to the Rite of Theft and Bosmer stealth (Valenwood: A Study, War Customs of the Tribal Bosmer, The Wood Elves of Valenwood, and more besides). Bosmer in lore are known for two things: their stealth (and penchant for thievery) and their unmatched skill at using a bow. Neither of these is represented in the current racial passives.

LOL and someone even upvoted this! Bosmers are bow masters, hunters, they grow up in the forests, where are wild animals, predators, so they learn how to survive from childhood... In TES series, Wood Elves have unique ability which calms down wild animals. They are not born thieves, they just have amazing survival skills which are learnt ability since physicaly they are not better than any elven race, which makes them a potential awesome thieves, but only a few outcasts go this path... From the other hand we have Khajits, who are as much respected traders as thieves, drug addicts and smooth talkers... They have a natural talent, because they are cats, they are agile, they can move quiet and they can see in the dark..... You can say whatever you want to, but lorewise everything is correct....

Your lore source for "potential awesome thieves, but only a few outcasts go this path" which directly contradicts 'War Customs of the Tribal Bosmer,' 'The Green Pact and the Dominion,' and 'Heroes of the Sanctuary?' Not to mention previous games, which you refer to when you bring up the active ability to Command Animals -- in every such game 'thief' is brought up as a favorite class for which Bosmer are well suited. You also fail to note that in the TES series Bosmer received THE MOST racial bonuses to thief skills across all games that had racial passives. You do note (correctly) that Bosmer are supposed to be 'bow masters.' How is that reflected in ESO? By Orcs, Dunmer, Redguards, and Imperials being better at actually USING bows. The fact is, Bosmer DO NOT EXIST in this game.

Completely agree except for the second to last sentence because we just don't have current data on that anymore. There have been too many indirect changes to the racial balance by messing with the internal balance between damage and sustain for us to confidently claim that it's still true now. There have been damage nerfs to low sustain races with the food changes and in Dragonhold sustain is rather low, so Bosmer might actually be competing with them on bows. Oh and they are definitely better than Imperials in that regard. Imperials are just better at stealth now, which makes little sense.

Actually, even if you are correct that sustain is so great, then that applies to ALL weapons, not just bows; and my point remains. Bosmer aren't supposed to be masters of ALL weapons, only bows. Where there is mention of Bosmer swordmasters ('Words and Philosophy' comes to mind), in those cases mastery of the bow came naturally to the Bosmer but skill with any other weapon took significant effort.

Well they are good at knife throwing, since that has always been part of the Marksman skill and knife throwing is in the two weapons skill, so I'd still count that. But yeah, that's where the system reaches its narrative limits. I would prefer if Redguards only had reduced melee/stamina weapon costs or returned stamina only in melee range in terms of lore, but that's part of ZOS trying to open the races up to more build variety which is good thing in my book as a hobby theory crafter.

I was just thinking about adding something like this to my post above. Only I was thinking they should have given the Reguards the flat regen bonus and limited the ability discount to melee weapons, and give Bosmer the Redguard-style regen and ability discount but only for bows. Or something like that. The bottom line is: the current passives were poorly conceived and poorly implemented by people who clearly had no understanding of what Bosmer are supposed to be.

Cundu_Ertur

Commancho wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Bosmer learn to be thieves from childhood by practising the Rite of Theft. The Rite of literal Theft.

It's ancient tradition long time forgotten in second Era.

Then why are there at least two quests centered around it in Valenwood?

Commancho wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Your lore source for "potential awesome thieves, but only a few outcasts go this path" which directly contradicts 'War Customs of the Tribal Bosmer,' 'The Green Pact and the Dominion,' and 'Heroes of the Sanctuary?'

No, it doesn't. These traditions doesnt even take a place in any former Elder Scroll tittles. In second Era, Wood Elves are just an usual criminals, marksmans and defenders of the Aldmeri Dominium.

Let me skip all this nonsense - it's MMO and they can't make two races to have same passives.

So Orcs and Dunmer don't have 258 weapon damage bonuses? Orcs, Redguards, Imperials, and Bosmer don't all have +2k stamina? Altmer and Dunmer don't have 258 spell damage? Altmer and Bretons don't have +2k magicka? Talk about nonsense.

Also, your first point is negated by the fact that several NPC's in the game make explicit reference to the rite as if it were a current aspect of Bosmeri culture. I also like how you pretend that the rest of my post didn't exist.

Jaraal

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

So Orcs and Dunmer don't have 258 weapon damage bonuses? Orcs, Redguards, Imperials, and Bosmer don't all have +2k stamina? Altmer and Dunmer don't have 258 spell damage? Altmer and Bretons don't have +2k magicka? Talk about nonsense.

And this is what's so bothersome about it all.

'Here, everybody can share racial passives but Bosmer and Khajiit! No, we can't possibly allow that! And hey, here's an idea.... lets not only make Bosmer have a different passive than the one so many players built their characters around, but let's also make it unusable to the majority of Bosmer players who never PvP! Yeah, that's a great idea! And the Way of Air set is so popular, Bosmers (who actually PvP) will certainly appreciate not having to spend a few gold to wear the set any more! Players will love us for our innovative ingenuity!'

Somebody actually had to say this, or something similar in those developers' meetings. Hard to even imagine the conversations, but here we are.

Commancho

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Then why are there at least two quests centered around it in Valenwood?

Because this game is already far away from lore, somewhere in the WOW's galaxy?
I don't even know what quests you are talking about, since there are thousends of meanless quests in this game.

Ratzkifal

Commancho wrote: »

[...]
Let me skip all this nonsense - it's MMO and they can't make two races to have same passives.

Adding to what Cundu_Ertur said, let me ask "And why not?"
Bretons, Altmer and Dunmer are all very good at magic. If magic in this game is expressed through a singular attribute and its recovery, then these races are bound to share passives and they do! There is no problem with that because they don't share all of their passives. They only share one (or two).

Similarly, Khajiit and Bosmer would not share all of their passives. They would only share a single stat. 3m sneak radius.
Bosmer would not suddenly be a crit damage race or a hybrid race or a race with health recovery or even a race with 5% more success chance at pickpocketing nor would Khajiit have poison resistance, permanent penetration, movementspeed after dodgeroll or hefty stamina recovery or take 10% reduced fall damage.

The fact that this game existed for 5 years with Khajiit and Bosmer sharing a passive and Argonians and Bosmer sharing a passive proves that it can be done and that it does not hurt the identity of either.
There are things that hurt balance and needed to be changed, like bonus damage from stealth, but 3m stealth radius on Bosmer is not one of them.

Commancho

TBH I'm not against Bosmers having thief bonus, but sneak is already PVP thing and there is already a little reason to pick Khajit for anything else, but roleplaying both in PVP and PVE.

Ratzkifal

Commancho wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Then why are there at least two quests centered around it in Valenwood?

Because this game is already far away from lore, somewhere in the WOW's galaxy?
I don't even know what quests you are talking about, since there are thousends of meanless quests in this game.

You mean this quest? The one that's hard to miss since it starts quite literally in the capital of the dominion and one of the biggest places for trading as well as the spot where you respec?

Ratzkifal

Commancho wrote: »

TBH I'm not against Bosmers having thief bonus, but sneak is already PVP thing and there is already a little reason to pick Khajit for anything else, but roleplaying both in PVP and PVE.

No reason to pick Khajiit in PvP? Check out this then.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbWHFpjCfKA

Commancho

Ratzkifal wrote: »

No reason to pick Khajiit in PvP? Check out this then.

Thats a child's discussion. Instead of showing me a video of a player who would probably do great even on Altmer being a stamsorc, maybe you can tell me what Khajit can bring to the table? This funny a little extra sustain? A tiny little more of rescources? Or maybe extra critical dmg which can be mittigated to 0% in CP PVP or to -50% in noCP (-60~70% in premade)?

Ratzkifal

Commancho wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

No reason to pick Khajiit in PvP? Check out this then.

Thats a child's discussion. Instead of showing me a video of a player who would probably do great even on Altmer being a stamsorc, maybe you can tell me what Khajit can bring to the table? This funny a little extra sustain? A tiny little more of rescources? Or maybe extra critical dmg which can be mittigated to 0% in CP PVP or to -50% in noCP (-60~70% in premade)?

Khajiit sustain is nothing to laugh at. Of course there are other races with higher sustain, but apart from Imperial and Argonians, nobody has hybrid sustain and neither of these two has an offensive bonus that can come even close to what Khajiit are getting. And to put things in perspective, Khajiit sustain is really close to Argonian sustain when they constantly drink potions and Khajiit get that without burning through their Alchemy mats.
Your argument is Khajiit only have stealth and if you give Bosmer stealth back, Khajiit would have nothing unique but that is completely underselling their crit bonus. Even if it's not as good as Orc, Dunmer or Altmer damage, they are still 4th best magicka dps and 3rd best stamina dps. Best stamina dps in the dominion. Even with newer data, this shouldn't have changed for the worse but for the better as they are not as heavily affected by the food changes thanks to their sustain. It might not be that high, but it's there and it matters and it gets affected by minor and major intellect and endurance as well as your CP.

As for PvP Critical damage isn't useless, which is showcased by the video I sent which I assume you didn't watch. All impen and other sources of crit resist do is reduce your crit damage modifier, aka the thing Khajiit get a buff for. Why do they do that? Because crit resist reduces damage in pvp more than regular resist assuming average penetration, average crit damage modifier, average crit resist and average resist.
Now Khajiit increase your crit modifier, which actually makes item sets that give lots of crit resist (like Impregnable, Transmutation or next patch's crafted set) less effective at reducing incoming damage than sets that give a ton of armor (like Pariah, Armor Master and Fortified Brass). These high armor sets are relatively unpopular but even then you have a wonderful ult called Onslaught that completely ruins the days of these high armor players you are weak against by ignoring their armor and giving you extra penetration afterward.

Lastly, consider how it used to be in the past. Back when everyone was a Redguard, Dunmer or Altmer because all the other races were bad. Why did people pick Bosmer? Because of roleplay OR because of stealth and the expectation that they would always be stealthy. Now they changed that. What you are afraid will be happening to Khajiit HAS HAPPENED to Bosmer in Wrathstone, except that Khajiit would not lose their own stealth if Bosmer got theirs back and would still have superior crit damage. Bosmer and Khajiit would be the stealth bros again and you could pick whichever you would like better.

BlueRaven

Commancho wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Bosmer learn to be thieves from childhood by practising the Rite of Theft. The Rite of literal Theft.

It's ancient tradition long time forgotten in second Era.

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Your lore source for "potential awesome thieves, but only a few outcasts go this path" which directly contradicts 'War Customs of the Tribal Bosmer,' 'The Green Pact and the Dominion,' and 'Heroes of the Sanctuary?'

No, it doesn't. These traditions doesnt even take a place in any former Elder Scroll tittles. In second Era, Wood Elves are just an usual criminals, marksmans and defenders of the Aldmeri Dominium.

Let me skip all this nonsense - it's MMO and they can't make two races to have same passives.

All you do is assert things without backup or links. You think you know the lore and background to TES because you know there are ERAS but really it's just you making stuff up and not backing anything with proof.

So here are the wood elf descriptions from most of the games.

(Hopefully I got the order correct.)

Elder Scrolls 1 Arena



Thieves...hmmm.

Elder Scrolls 2 Daggerfall



Thieves again...

Elder Scrolls 3 Morrowind



Skill Bonuses

Marksman +15
Sneak +10
Light Armor +10
Alchemy +5
Acrobatics +5


Elder scrolls 4 Oblivion



Skill Bonuses

Acrobatics +5
Alchemy +10
Alteration +5
Light Armor +5
Marksman +10
Sneak +10


Elder Scrolls 5 Skyrim



Skill Bonuses (Base level is 15)

Archery 25 (+10 effectively)
Light Armor 20 (+5 effectively)
Sneak 20 (+5 effectively)
Lockpicking 20 (+5 effectively)
Pickpocket 20 (+5 effectively)
Alchemy 20 (+5 effectively)

And I should just as well mention;

Elder Scrolls Online (original description)



Full manuals can be found here;

https://manuals.bethsoft.com

Notice the recurring theme of thievery and stealth.

Bonus round!




Remember this quest with the stealthy Wood Elves?


Or this one pertaining to a wood elf thief causing trouble?

Commancho wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Then why are there at least two quests centered around it in Valenwood?

Because this game is already far away from lore, somewhere in the WOW's galaxy?
I don't even know what quests you are talking about, since there are thousends of meanless quests in this game.

Wow. spoken like a true fountain of lore knowledge...

How about the main quest then, or is that too "meaningless" for you?

A quest in Greenshade involves the veiled hesitance stealing the bow of a dead (ghostly) wood elf, binding him by the Right of Theft to command his ghost soldiers to fight for them? You may remember, the quest is called "Right Of Theft".

Here is the summary (spoilers);

"The Blackroot Clan died in Dread Vullain, but Naemon's shade has raised them from the dead. You need to uncover what happened to the Clan to put their spirits back to rest.
The leader of the Blackroot Clan is missing his bow, which invokes the right of theft. The villagers poisoned themselves to poison the Blackwood Clan. Enter the Nereid Temple Cave to find the general's remains and retrieve his bow. However, the servant of Prince Naemon stole the bow. Close shadow rifts to weaken Prince Naemon's hold on the forest, while Indaenir looks for the servant.
Return the bow to the general and, due to the right of theft, you can either release the general and his army or command them to fight for Queen Ayrenn."

Jenzi

@BlueRaven Amazing post, one of the best I've seen on this forum. *claps*

BlueRaven

Jenzi wrote: »

@BlueRaven Amazing post, one of the best I've seen on this forum. *claps*

Thanks!

Jaraal

Jenzi wrote: »

@BlueRaven Amazing post, one of the best I've seen on this forum. *claps*

He's shared this fine information with us before, in an excellent 89 page thread discussing these very same issues, but that one got swept under the rug by ZOS.

There are a lot of insightful and eloquent folks who are passionate about preserving TES lore. When you spend a significant part of your life in a world that many worked tirelessly to create and perfect, it doesn't always sit well when one or two folks try to rewrite history. They are undoubtedly hoping we will eventually forget about it, and their silence on the matter proves that. But we will not go quietly into that Valenwood night.

Gilvoth

BlueRaven wrote: »

Commancho wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Bosmer learn to be thieves from childhood by practising the Rite of Theft. The Rite of literal Theft.

It's ancient tradition long time forgotten in second Era.

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Your lore source for "potential awesome thieves, but only a few outcasts go this path" which directly contradicts 'War Customs of the Tribal Bosmer,' 'The Green Pact and the Dominion,' and 'Heroes of the Sanctuary?'

No, it doesn't. These traditions doesnt even take a place in any former Elder Scroll tittles. In second Era, Wood Elves are just an usual criminals, marksmans and defenders of the Aldmeri Dominium.

Let me skip all this nonsense - it's MMO and they can't make two races to have same passives.

All you do is assert things without backup or links. You think you know the lore and background to TES because you know there are ERAS but really it's just you making stuff up and not backing anything with proof.

So here are the wood elf descriptions from most of the games.

(Hopefully I got the order correct.)

Elder Scrolls 1 Arena



Thieves...hmmm.

Elder Scrolls 2 Daggerfall



Thieves again...

Elder Scrolls 3 Morrowind



Skill Bonuses

Marksman +15
Sneak +10
Light Armor +10
Alchemy +5
Acrobatics +5


Elder scrolls 4 Oblivion



Skill Bonuses

Acrobatics +5
Alchemy +10
Alteration +5
Light Armor +5
Marksman +10
Sneak +10


Elder Scrolls 5 Skyrim



Skill Bonuses (Base level is 15)

Archery 25 (+10 effectively)
Light Armor 20 (+5 effectively)
Sneak 20 (+5 effectively)
Lockpicking 20 (+5 effectively)
Pickpocket 20 (+5 effectively)
Alchemy 20 (+5 effectively)

And I should just as well mention;

Elder Scrolls Online (original description)



Full manuals can be found here;

https://manuals.bethsoft.com

Notice the recurring theme of thievery and stealth.

Bonus round!




Remember this quest with the stealthy Wood Elves?


Or this one pertaining to a wood elf thief causing trouble?

Commancho wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Then why are there at least two quests centered around it in Valenwood?

Because this game is already far away from lore, somewhere in the WOW's galaxy?
I don't even know what quests you are talking about, since there are thousends of meanless quests in this game.

Wow. spoken like a true fountain of lore knowledge...

How about the main quest then, or is that too "meaningless" for you?

A quest in Greenshade involves the veiled hesitance stealing the bow of a dead (ghostly) wood elf, binding him by the Right of Theft to command his ghost soldiers to fight for them? You may remember, the quest is called "Right Of Theft".

Here is the summary (spoilers);

"The Blackroot Clan died in Dread Vullain, but Naemon's shade has raised them from the dead. You need to uncover what happened to the Clan to put their spirits back to rest.
The leader of the Blackroot Clan is missing his bow, which invokes the right of theft. The villagers poisoned themselves to poison the Blackwood Clan. Enter the Nereid Temple Cave to find the general's remains and retrieve his bow. However, the servant of Prince Naemon stole the bow. Close shadow rifts to weaken Prince Naemon's hold on the forest, while Indaenir looks for the servant.
Return the bow to the general and, due to the right of theft, you can either release the general and his army or command them to fight for Queen Ayrenn."

wow, all truth. and i must admit, one Hell of a post.
nice work.

Cundu_Ertur

Commancho wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Then why are there at least two quests centered around it in Valenwood?

Because this game is already far away from lore, somewhere in the WOW's galaxy?
I don't even know what quests you are talking about, since there are thousends of meanless quests in this game.

During the Staff of Magnus quest you can learn about the Crown of Nenalata: "This helm is actually from our own collection, but one of our Bosmer … allies … stole it, and then returned it in exchange for a song." Captain Sarandil. That's how the Rite works.

Also in Greenwood another part of the main quest line is named the Rite of Theft and involves the Heritance invoking the Rite to gain the support of an undead army.

And yet again in Greenwood you can find a Thalmor Handbill in Marbruk outlawing the practice of the Rite of Theft, indicating it is a current concern.

What is especially comedic is that we have gone from "lore-wise everything is correct" to "this game is already far away from lore, somewhere in the WOW's galaxy?"

edit to add: I just realized I had promised two quests, but delivered only one. It was an oversight. The quest "Manthir's Debt," a side quest in Woodhearth, demonstrates that without doubt the Rite of Theft is alive and well during the events of ESO. Though I could have also referenced the Marbruk side-quest "The Artisan."

So there's three for the price of two for you. Never say that only Khajiit have bargains.

max_only

Commancho wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Bosmer learn to be thieves from childhood by practising the Rite of Theft. The Rite of literal Theft.

It's ancient tradition long time forgotten in second Era.

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Your lore source for "potential awesome thieves, but only a few outcasts go this path" which directly contradicts 'War Customs of the Tribal Bosmer,' 'The Green Pact and the Dominion,' and 'Heroes of the Sanctuary?'

No, it doesn't. These traditions doesnt even take a place in any former Elder Scroll tittles. In second Era, Wood Elves are just an usual criminals, marksmans and defenders of the Aldmeri Dominium.

Let me skip all this nonsense - it's MMO and they can't make two races to have same passives.

That’s nonsense alright. Why not? Who said? Why do more than one race have the same stamina bonus? The same Magicka bonus?

For 5 years people used money to buy this game.
For 5 years Bosmer had a stealth bonus.
For 5years people made Bosmer characters.

You know what? Let’s just take max Magicka away from Bretons! They can’t share that passive with anyone else. Who cares if you wasted money for 5 years on Magicka Breton characters. Two races can’t have the same passive.

Faulgor

Jaraal wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Leamon Tuttle is his name, and as far as I can tell he's a damn fine fit for the job. Besides, these race changes were still done with Schick at the lore-helm. Apparently there's just no interest at the manager/producer level to revise these changes, all our input be damned.

Actually, Schick made his departure known publicly in the same month that Update 21 (racial rebalance) dropped. I highly doubt that he would set these curious changes in motion and then quit right as they were being finalized. It's more likely that he disapproved of these changes, and desired to get his name as far away from them as possible. Of course, the official statements say nothing about it, so we can only speculate. But I think the timing of these events says a lot.

Or we could not? There is no reason to doubt that Schick's official statement is true and he left for personal reasons (to move with his daughter to Ireland). That he quit over an outrage that someone higher up demanded Bosmer have their stealth bonus removed is completely ridiculous, especially considering he had no problems bending the lore on other occasions. Even if that were true, there's no way Tuttle could be blamed for this, who has written some of the most praised characters in the game (e.g. Sotha Sil).
Besides, the content for updates (even balance changes) are developed way before the update actually drops, so this still seems firmly under Schick's helm. In fact most of Elsweyr was probably still done along his guidelines, so Greymoor will be Tuttle's first real test.

Jaraal wrote: »

It's also interesting to note that community managers said they would explain to us how Sai Sahan (and soon Lyris Titanborn) came back from the dead to lead their respective chapters.... but no explanation ever came. There was an attempt to explain the sudden appearance of dragons in the Age Of Man, but it seems to raise more questions than it actually answered. But with the latest Legion Zero / Yokudan / Transformers / alliance fiasco, it's hard to take any of the new lore seriously at this point.

Sai Sahan's survival is admittedly vague, but that's not really uncommon for TES, is it? Although I don't know yet about Lyris.
Which questions about dragons in the 2nd era do you consider unexplained? Some like Nahfahlaar were always around, the main antagonists of Elsweyr were released from the Halls of Colossus.
And reusing assets, *** as it is, is really not enough to throw out all lore from here on out. We've had way, way worse. Were you around for the transcription error thing? Or the whole of screwed up Summerset?