Ever get the feeling this whole thread is about stamdks who hold block and wait for dizzy to be up being countered? DKs don’t really need a buff either (though the mag abilities in the earthen line are too expensive), it’s moreso that a one trick pony playstyle doesn’t work against all classes.

ecru wrote: »

There's no penalty for their abilities doing more damage than comparable abilities

Wrong. The "penalty" is that our abilities don't do the advertised damage unless conditions are perfect. Backlash is only good if we can stay on full offensive to maximize the damage, and most Templars are running defensive builds that simply can't do that. Templars running full offense may, but they can be squished with one CC. If you eat a fully charged backlash, it's l2p. Sweeps is easily countered by moving (causing ticks to miss), roots, and Minor/Major Evasion. Those skills may look good on paper, but it takes a lot of skill (or potato opponents) to execute properly.

technohic wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

I'm just going to blame living dark and heals on ER getting buffed as being the changes that even brought templars to the top of every whine thread. Maybe add POTL/PL critting but I consider that a wash when it used to fill up from allies damage and its tooltips are similar to other delayed burst abilities and, it can be cleansed or reduced by not getting hit while it's up.

The problem with the ER healing buff coming with living dark is you get your ER up, start spamming sweeps and keep living dark up and you suddenly are a heal tank to anyone not running good damage

The total damage output of POTL is about ~10% more damage than blastbones, 20% more than shalks, and it's extremely efficient, which is part of what makes it so good. It's .88 damage/stam compared to .61 damage/stam for Blastbones and Shalks. Jabs is the same when it comes to efficiency, .59 damage/stam vs 0.47 for Dizzy or 0.39 for Flurry (this includes the 15% cost reduction from the 2h and dw passives). If you include a BL proc it goes up to 0.82 damage/stam, almost twice as efficient as dizzy and more than twice as efficient as Flurry. Again, this is what makes Templar so good. There's no penalty for their abilities doing more damage than comparable abilities like a cost increase (especially since jabs/sweep were just reduced in cost), which is what makes these abilities so good. The cost is the same, but the damage is higher, so everything is inherently more efficient than any comparable abilities.

Now Templar is getting access to the same block passive that DK has, which is a very cool and good idea and obviously just what they needed. It's honestly starting to seem like someone is just buffing Templar for their own benefit.

I literally had the penalty mentioned for POTL. Can be purged away, or just dont eat all damage. It requires nailing your target full time to reach the tooltip. You should try it.

Jabs and sweeps is similar. You ever watch 2 decent players duel and notice how they are going around in circles? Throw in evasion and that adds to the drawbacks.

What's funny is I watch Kristopher on his templars not run jabs on stamplar and not run PL on his magplar because they are not really the strength. They are more beneficial maybe for a less advanced player and are good, but not the god abilities people pretend they are as only below average players eat them.

Living dark and ER heal buff is what made it easier to stay offensive to where it used to be templars could get pushed on their back foot healing more rather than trying to keep damage going.

a stamplar not using jabs is not a good player. making a bunch of clickbait videos does not mean that you actually understand anything that you're talking about. i remember that he didn't even use jabs after it was buffed twice (channel time lowered/200ms post channel delay removed), which says to me that this guy has very little idea about what is actually going on in the game that he pretends to be an expert at.

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

There's no penalty for their abilities doing more damage than comparable abilities

Wrong. The "penalty" is that our abilities don't do the advertised damage unless conditions are perfect. Backlash is only good if we can stay on full offensive to maximize the damage, and most Templars are running defensive builds that simply can't do that. Templars running full offense may, but they can be squished with one CC. If you eat a fully charged backlash, it's l2p. Sweeps is easily countered by moving (causing ticks to miss), roots, and Minor/Major Evasion. Those skills may look good on paper, but it takes a lot of skill (or potato opponents) to execute properly.

"eating a fully charged backlash is a l2p issue" doesn't make a lot of sense when the amount of damage you have to take to eat a fully charged backlash is equal to about half the output a mildly offensive build should have. it should take roughly three gcds of offense to make sure the full damage procs. what kind of build are you running that you have trouble doing that much damage in six seconds, and why are you using it in a situation where you can't even capitalize on it?

"my abilities have to be better than everyone else's because i can't use them" isn't a great argument tbh. if you have problems with jabs constantly missing not related to lag, the problem is you, not the ability. and when it comes to lag, believe it or not, everyone's abilities don't work great when the servers are lagging.

technohic wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

I'm just going to blame living dark and heals on ER getting buffed as being the changes that even brought templars to the top of every whine thread. Maybe add POTL/PL critting but I consider that a wash when it used to fill up from allies damage and its tooltips are similar to other delayed burst abilities and, it can be cleansed or reduced by not getting hit while it's up.

The problem with the ER healing buff coming with living dark is you get your ER up, start spamming sweeps and keep living dark up and you suddenly are a heal tank to anyone not running good damage

The total damage output of POTL is about ~10% more damage than blastbones, 20% more than shalks, and it's extremely efficient, which is part of what makes it so good. It's .88 damage/stam compared to .61 damage/stam for Blastbones and Shalks. Jabs is the same when it comes to efficiency, .59 damage/stam vs 0.47 for Dizzy or 0.39 for Flurry (this includes the 15% cost reduction from the 2h and dw passives). If you include a BL proc it goes up to 0.82 damage/stam, almost twice as efficient as dizzy and more than twice as efficient as Flurry. Again, this is what makes Templar so good. There's no penalty for their abilities doing more damage than comparable abilities like a cost increase (especially since jabs/sweep were just reduced in cost), which is what makes these abilities so good. The cost is the same, but the damage is higher, so everything is inherently more efficient than any comparable abilities.

Now Templar is getting access to the same block passive that DK has, which is a very cool and good idea and obviously just what they needed. It's honestly starting to seem like someone is just buffing Templar for their own benefit.

I literally had the penalty mentioned for POTL. Can be purged away, or just dont eat all damage. It requires nailing your target full time to reach the tooltip. You should try it.

Jabs and sweeps is similar. You ever watch 2 decent players duel and notice how they are going around in circles? Throw in evasion and that adds to the drawbacks.

What's funny is I watch Kristopher on his templars not run jabs on stamplar and not run PL on his magplar because they are not really the strength. They are more beneficial maybe for a less advanced player and are good, but not the god abilities people pretend they are as only below average players eat them.

Living dark and ER heal buff is what made it easier to stay offensive to where it used to be templars could get pushed on their back foot healing more rather than trying to keep damage going.

a stamplar not using jabs is not a good player. making a bunch of clickbait videos does not mean that you actually understand anything that you're talking about. i remember that he didn't even use jabs after it was buffed twice (channel time lowered/200ms post channel delay removed), which says to me that this guy has very little idea about what is actually going on in the game that he pretends to be an expert at.

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

There's no penalty for their abilities doing more damage than comparable abilities

Wrong. The "penalty" is that our abilities don't do the advertised damage unless conditions are perfect. Backlash is only good if we can stay on full offensive to maximize the damage, and most Templars are running defensive builds that simply can't do that. Templars running full offense may, but they can be squished with one CC. If you eat a fully charged backlash, it's l2p. Sweeps is easily countered by moving (causing ticks to miss), roots, and Minor/Major Evasion. Those skills may look good on paper, but it takes a lot of skill (or potato opponents) to execute properly.

"eating a fully charged backlash is a l2p issue" doesn't make a lot of sense when the amount of damage you have to take to eat a fully charged backlash is equal to about half the output a mildly offensive build should have. it should take roughly three gcds of offense to make sure the full damage procs. what kind of build are you running that you have trouble doing that much damage in six seconds, and why are you using it in a situation where you can't even capitalize on it?

"my abilities have to be better than everyone else's because i can't use them" isn't a great argument tbh. if you have problems with jabs constantly missing not related to lag, the problem is you, not the ability. and when it comes to lag, believe it or not, everyone's abilities don't work great when the servers are lagging.

LOL Im pretty sure Kristopher has forgotten more than you'll ever know. I've seen him in Cyrodiil solo and I have seen him in ball groups and on just about every class. And he's been doing it for a long time. I assume he doesnt use jabs because he has the most clean animation cancelling I have ever seen. What he does, and others do are reality of what goes on out there. What you do is read tool tips and whine on a forum and don't really know who you are in game otherwise.

why don't you get your youtube hero on here to explain why a spammable that has a 70% chance to do 75% more damage than dizzy is a bad ability, and then he can enlighten us all on why stamplars should use dizzy instead. or maybe crushing weapon? or maybe flurry? is it because of major evasion? jabs still does 95% of the damage of dizzy against a target with major evasion up, and 43% more damage than dizzy with a BL proc. three ticks of jabs and a BL proc is still 20% more damage than dizzy against major evasion.

what a terrible ability, lmao.

edit: oh yeah, this is the same guy who refused to slot vigor on his stamplar, right?

Why nerf a class when you can buff weaker classes?

Sorrcerer are getting striped of their power each patch along with their nemesis the nightblades. Magicka Necromancer got some combat improvement. Stamina DK is bullied by stamina warden.

Instead of gutting a class like stamsorc and stamblade because they were strong, it is better to bring the other classes to their lvl. Currently, stamblade and stamsorc and other classes got nerfed too hard while other classes got buffed too hard. Let us not bring the nerf hammer to templar class because what follows is a buff hammer to other class "looking at stamcro major defile next patch".

Thing which make templars strong the most is Extended ritual.
Cleanse, cleanse and more and more cleanse.
In general , it feels like people forgot what we had when snares were almost uncounterable at most of magicka classes.
Or how it was when u was 100% time Major Defiled with Durok's bane set weared at a half of pvp pupulation.
Or cost poisions everywhere.
Such things showed it's real value.

Now situation with debuffs, dots and snares is much better, but...we have a lot of such things like major vulnerability, minor one, and strong poisons at weapons, their value is really huge, and templar can remove them absolutly easiest than any other class.
And overheal everyone in his team.

Jubs, burning light, even PoTL are additional options to this.
Maybe Power of the light idk one of the most valuable things even after nerf to fil only from own attacks.

But, Main strenght is cleanse as a thing which is unavailable for 4 from 6 classes. (Purge is useless expencive and completly shouldn't become stronger, because each class should have own different counter to negative effects to prevent Homogenization).

In a case when each class will have an own option to counter negative effects (at tanky class less effective, at squishy one more, and depends on another strong sides they have)...balance will become better

Kadoin wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

why don't you get your youtube hero on here to explain why a spammable that has a 70% chance to do 75% more damage than dizzy is a bad ability, and then he can enlighten us all on why stamplars should use dizzy instead. or maybe crushing weapon? or maybe flurry? is it because of major evasion? jabs still does 95% of the damage of dizzy against a target with major evasion up, and 43% more damage than dizzy with a BL proc. three ticks of jabs and a BL proc is still 20% more damage than dizzy against major evasion.

what a terrible ability, lmao.

edit: oh yeah, this is the same guy who refused to slot vigor on his stamplar, right?

No idea what his reasons are, but here are mine:

A. Unreliable in lag
B. Bugs in the hitbox, especially with players that actually know how to move out of range of skills
C. Bugs when cancelling sometimes and prevents rolling
D. Bugs when you are stunned mid-jab and can produce a situation where you can't break free (getting stunned during jabs counts as being interrupted, and if you eat another cc when interrupted you can't break free. Terrible to experience this when not in a 1v1)
E. Damage output is actually less than some combinations of skills and less reliable. You can also use another skill to proc burning light if you care that much about it .
F. Anyone with a brain in Cyro will find a way to have major evasion on
G. Still ain't that effective versus tanky targets
H. Actually was recently nerfed if you still use a DoT build or trick build that runs DoTs and explosive damage

For me, I honestly would not even slot the skill unless it:

1. Healed like puncturing OR a set/skill that generates that effect were equipped (briarheart, bahraha curse, ...)
2. Sellistrix equipped (and/or reliable hard CC)
3. Dual wielding to make up for the delay in jabs cancelling
4. Jabs does significant damage (kills in 1-2 jabs rotation w/ ult)

Slotting jabs just because its better on paper is not a smart idea. But to each their own...

And yes, I have a stamplar, though its closer to a hybrid and an experimental one. It won't be slotting jabs either.

i legitimately cannot remember the last time i ran into a stamplar not using jabs. the only example i can think of is the youtuber the guy above mentioned, but he also doesn't slot vigor which says enough by itself.

JusticeSouldier wrote: »

Thing which make templars strong the most is Extended ritual.
Cleanse, cleanse and more and more cleanse.
In general , it feels like people forgot what we had when snares were almost uncounterable at most of magicka classes.
Or how it was when u was 100% time Major Defiled with Durok's bane set weared at a half of pvp pupulation.
Or cost poisions everywhere.
Such things showed it's real value.

Now situation with debuffs, dots and snares is much better, but...we have a lot of such things like major vulnerability, minor one, and strong poisons at weapons, their value is really huge, and templar can remove them absolutly easiest than any other class.
And overheal everyone in his team.

Jubs, burning light, even PoTL are additional options to this.
Maybe Power of the light idk one of the most valuable things even after nerf to fil only from own attacks.

But, Main strenght is cleanse as a thing which is unavailable for 4 from 6 classes. (Purge is useless expencive and completly shouldn't become stronger, because each class should have own different counter to negative effects to prevent Homogenization).

In a case when each class will have an own option to counter negative effects (at tanky class less effective, at squishy one more, and depends on another strong sides they have)...balance will become better

I agree 100% about Extended Ritual. I made a post regarding the ability in this thread a few pages back. In my opinion ER is the most oveloaded ability in the game, and will continue to be even after it's "nerfed' (snare removed), because the nerf is just an in combat buff to templars, giving them the same block passive DK has when they're in their ritual, which is the vast majority of the time. The snare removal will be a nice qol change for BGs and Cyrodiil, but I really don't understand why they didn't just remove the snare and leave the abiltiy as is, it doesn't need anything else. ER is a gigantic heal in a gigantic area, provides minor mending, purges the caster, now buffs the blocking ability of the caster, and provides the best synergy in the game. One cast of ER has the potential to mitigate more damage than any ult in the game due to the synergy, which is really dumb and broken.

Purges in general need to be looked at, they're too good for one class to always have a big purge for themselves and their group in their kit, and only a few others to have mediocre self purges in comparison, with some classes having none at all. Even casting ER on yourself and purging a stack of dots/bleeds/debuffs can easily mitigate twice as much damage as a cast of Vigor, and then the ability goes on to heal for 24 seconds.

Magplar is a noob stomper class. If you struggle with magplars, you already know...

always funny to see what they fix instead of more important things:))

and why this thread exists, yes? just half of whole population of battlegrounds became templars with no reasons surely. It's just my imagination. templars are ok. no need to fix anything


@ZOS_BrianWheeler is this how it should be?

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

JusticeSouldier wrote: »

and why this thread exists, yes? just half of whole population of battlegrounds became templars with no reasons surely. It's just my imagination. templars are ok. no need to fix anything

@ZOS_BrianWheeler is this how it should be?

Just slot Major evasion. I noticed that at the moment templar sees shuffle or quick cloak he suddenly loses all the ferocity and starts acting cautiously looking how not to die instead of trying to burst you down. Some classes/specs doesn't have access to major evasion - true. But they are RANGED. Every time templar wants to push you he need gap closer or sprint, while you can dps him all the time. Jabplar is harmless at distance.

These numbers are too small for non-evasion build...That means It was always on.

but the main thing this screenshot tells is - 3 templars only in red team...and there were +2 in purple and 2 in green...what can say such ratio of them in match about class balance?