wheem_ESO wrote: »

Battlegrounds Death Recap from live server:
Onslaught: 6,092
Puncturing Sweep: 6,918
Purifying Light: 8,763
Puncturing Sweep: 6,918
Arctic Blast (diff player): 122

I've seen Onslaughts hit for more damage than that before, so I assume that the player's offensive stats aren't anything particularly crazy. Yet, he was doing nearly 7k DPS in no-CP PvP by pressing one single button, which also comes with a snare + some self healing attached. And that's leaving the Purifying Light, Burning Light procs, light attack weaves, and weapon enchant procs out of the equation.

Typically, I'm seeing Jabs/Sweeps a bit over 5k damage per cast in Battlegrounds, which is quite a bit higher than any other spammable besides whip (which gets a full +25% extra damage on my Vampire). It's good that Jabs/Sweeps aren't as clunky as they were back in the day, and it's true that they're (sometimes) harder to land than say...Force Pulse, but I think the damage needs to be toned down a bit. Not gutted, and not made interruptable (which would be a terrible idea), but they could stand some adjustment.

That death recap seems like it came from a very handsome player. I'd like to meet him tbh.

Watched exellent rewiev of classes performance of Kristofer ESO few minuts ago...
https://youtu.be/6vGf9ce9Hus
Agree with almost everything he said here

@ZOS_BrianWheeler u need to watch it

Joy_Division wrote: »

JusticeSouldier wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

JusticeSouldier wrote: »

I create this poll to put some attention to the situation when class which is absolutly best support in game, who can indefinitely heal up himself whole group, provide resourses and most important buffs...also after Elsweyr launched - has best surviveability in game, best or one of the best sustain in game, very nice damage, fast cc charge (withh offbalance built in), fast range cc (spear), chiepest in game aoe burst ultimate (without casttime), resists and general tankiness (blocking and another passives, rituals), autodebuffing healing and damaging everyone "Living Darkness" and can't be debuffed because of Extended ritual...

If someone will want to call this "complaining", create please a table, where in one column u will write all strong sides of each class, in another one weak side...result will be interesting i garantee...I play on mag and stam templars and I'm bored and annoyed. Easy mode for me, especially at magplar last 3 patches. Battlegrounds show this very clear - 1 magicka templar completly changes the balance of whole match. But there are veryoften groups of 3 or 4 magplars at the same team. Premades gone and it's very nice... now time to take a look at class balance

You clearly aren't interested in a discussion about the subject, all you are saying is "I'm right, if you disagree with me you're wither a moron or biased, ZOS nerf this now!"

It's like the most anti-intellectual useless type of feedback there is and does nothing to strive for the very balance you seek. OK, we're big on learning the lessons of history right. Last year everyone complained about NBs being too strong and if you disagreed you were just a moron or biased. So nerf them and make the game balanced.

So ZOS nerfed them. Why don't you ask a nightblade player how that worked out. So what's the lesson we learn? Hey, that worked so well, let's do the same for Templars! But not for wardens even though their "strong" side chart is just as imbalanced as the Templar. To say nothing of Stam Necros, who are predominant in PvE and will be top tier in PvP as of the patch notes.

Well, with such "class representative" nothing strange we have such balance. And whole this "representatives" system is trash.
I guess u stucked at one of few only classes or playstyles, or in only specific content, or bored to play different classes and to compare them.
It doesn't work.
Only blind person can't see what's going on in battlegrounds for example.
How huge is value of magplars there and in similar conditions.
How tanky magplar is and how universal and strong is it's tookit.
1 magplar changes everything. And it's tanky af (exp one sure) + doing huge damage.

Or, biased abuser of holes in the system.
Like it was with premade advantages - it was during 3 years of asking Zenimax to separate premades from randoms, and everytime army of abusers wrote trash in style of "l2p", all fine, "we want to play in a team with friends to get fun" etc.

I feel u're first one.

On what the hell basement u decided that i'm not "interested in discussion the subject"?
And what is the sence of this your comment in general? Goal? Let's be true dude...

(And yes, nighblade's nerf was must. Not so strong, but it was needed. Same as magsorcs before. or dks in 2015. Because - BALANCE!)

I'd discuss this further, but I don;t understand what language this is because it isn't English.

Good that word discuss is here now. Discuss please, instead of empty evaluation of form of this thread, or my poor ofc english, or me personally.
This thread is about class balance, in which magplars seems BIS now in almost everything.
In previous comment i linked Kristopher's video about clas balance, it's interesting, not very long and these things are well argued there.

JusticeSouldier wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

JusticeSouldier wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

JusticeSouldier wrote: »

I create this poll to put some attention to the situation when class which is absolutly best support in game, who can indefinitely heal up himself whole group, provide resourses and most important buffs...also after Elsweyr launched - has best surviveability in game, best or one of the best sustain in game, very nice damage, fast cc charge (withh offbalance built in), fast range cc (spear), chiepest in game aoe burst ultimate (without casttime), resists and general tankiness (blocking and another passives, rituals), autodebuffing healing and damaging everyone "Living Darkness" and can't be debuffed because of Extended ritual...

If someone will want to call this "complaining", create please a table, where in one column u will write all strong sides of each class, in another one weak side...result will be interesting i garantee...I play on mag and stam templars and I'm bored and annoyed. Easy mode for me, especially at magplar last 3 patches. Battlegrounds show this very clear - 1 magicka templar completly changes the balance of whole match. But there are veryoften groups of 3 or 4 magplars at the same team. Premades gone and it's very nice... now time to take a look at class balance

You clearly aren't interested in a discussion about the subject, all you are saying is "I'm right, if you disagree with me you're wither a moron or biased, ZOS nerf this now!"

It's like the most anti-intellectual useless type of feedback there is and does nothing to strive for the very balance you seek. OK, we're big on learning the lessons of history right. Last year everyone complained about NBs being too strong and if you disagreed you were just a moron or biased. So nerf them and make the game balanced.

So ZOS nerfed them. Why don't you ask a nightblade player how that worked out. So what's the lesson we learn? Hey, that worked so well, let's do the same for Templars! But not for wardens even though their "strong" side chart is just as imbalanced as the Templar. To say nothing of Stam Necros, who are predominant in PvE and will be top tier in PvP as of the patch notes.

Well, with such "class representative" nothing strange we have such balance. And whole this "representatives" system is trash.
I guess u stucked at one of few only classes or playstyles, or in only specific content, or bored to play different classes and to compare them.
It doesn't work.
Only blind person can't see what's going on in battlegrounds for example.
How huge is value of magplars there and in similar conditions.
How tanky magplar is and how universal and strong is it's tookit.
1 magplar changes everything. And it's tanky af (exp one sure) + doing huge damage.

Or, biased abuser of holes in the system.
Like it was with premade advantages - it was during 3 years of asking Zenimax to separate premades from randoms, and everytime army of abusers wrote trash in style of "l2p", all fine, "we want to play in a team with friends to get fun" etc.

I feel u're first one.

On what the hell basement u decided that i'm not "interested in discussion the subject"?
And what is the sence of this your comment in general? Goal? Let's be true dude...

(And yes, nighblade's nerf was must. Not so strong, but it was needed. Same as magsorcs before. or dks in 2015. Because - BALANCE!)

I'd discuss this further, but I don;t understand what language this is because it isn't English.

Good that word discuss is here now. Discuss please, instead of empty evaluation of form of this thread, or my poor ofc english, or me personally.
This thread is about class balance, in which magplars seems BIS now in almost everything.
In previous comment i linked Kristopher's video about clas balance, it's interesting, not very long and these things are well argued there.

Kristofer mentions the strength of magicka Templar. But in no way does he say it's the best class to play at the moment. In fact, he continues to say how magicka Sorcerer even with the nerfs to damage shields is pretty amazing as well. He ALSO show the same type of love to stamina DK. Hell, even with the idea of magicka DK being slow he mentions the playstyle as a solid option along with stamina Sorc and stamina Warden.

Kristofer is amazing at any class. And the way he plays them can be a bit unorthodox(like his magplar) and he still displays a level of skill I do not possess.

JusticeSouldier wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

JusticeSouldier wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

JusticeSouldier wrote: »

I create this poll to put some attention to the situation when class which is absolutly best support in game, who can indefinitely heal up himself whole group, provide resourses and most important buffs...also after Elsweyr launched - has best surviveability in game, best or one of the best sustain in game, very nice damage, fast cc charge (withh offbalance built in), fast range cc (spear), chiepest in game aoe burst ultimate (without casttime), resists and general tankiness (blocking and another passives, rituals), autodebuffing healing and damaging everyone "Living Darkness" and can't be debuffed because of Extended ritual...

If someone will want to call this "complaining", create please a table, where in one column u will write all strong sides of each class, in another one weak side...result will be interesting i garantee...I play on mag and stam templars and I'm bored and annoyed. Easy mode for me, especially at magplar last 3 patches. Battlegrounds show this very clear - 1 magicka templar completly changes the balance of whole match. But there are veryoften groups of 3 or 4 magplars at the same team. Premades gone and it's very nice... now time to take a look at class balance

You clearly aren't interested in a discussion about the subject, all you are saying is "I'm right, if you disagree with me you're wither a moron or biased, ZOS nerf this now!"

It's like the most anti-intellectual useless type of feedback there is and does nothing to strive for the very balance you seek. OK, we're big on learning the lessons of history right. Last year everyone complained about NBs being too strong and if you disagreed you were just a moron or biased. So nerf them and make the game balanced.

So ZOS nerfed them. Why don't you ask a nightblade player how that worked out. So what's the lesson we learn? Hey, that worked so well, let's do the same for Templars! But not for wardens even though their "strong" side chart is just as imbalanced as the Templar. To say nothing of Stam Necros, who are predominant in PvE and will be top tier in PvP as of the patch notes.

Well, with such "class representative" nothing strange we have such balance. And whole this "representatives" system is trash.
I guess u stucked at one of few only classes or playstyles, or in only specific content, or bored to play different classes and to compare them.
It doesn't work.
Only blind person can't see what's going on in battlegrounds for example.
How huge is value of magplars there and in similar conditions.
How tanky magplar is and how universal and strong is it's tookit.
1 magplar changes everything. And it's tanky af (exp one sure) + doing huge damage.

Or, biased abuser of holes in the system.
Like it was with premade advantages - it was during 3 years of asking Zenimax to separate premades from randoms, and everytime army of abusers wrote trash in style of "l2p", all fine, "we want to play in a team with friends to get fun" etc.

I feel u're first one.

On what the hell basement u decided that i'm not "interested in discussion the subject"?
And what is the sence of this your comment in general? Goal? Let's be true dude...

(And yes, nighblade's nerf was must. Not so strong, but it was needed. Same as magsorcs before. or dks in 2015. Because - BALANCE!)

I'd discuss this further, but I don;t understand what language this is because it isn't English.

Good that word discuss is here now. Discuss please, instead of empty evaluation of form of this thread, or my poor ofc english, or me personally.
This thread is about class balance, in which magplars seems BIS now in almost everything.
In previous comment i linked Kristopher's video about clas balance, it's interesting, not very long and these things are well argued there.

I think you don't really get what Joy is trying to explain. Let me put it in simple ideas:

1- Nerfing classes for the sake of balance is stupid. It just makes the game less fun and more pigeonholed into one playing style for each class. For example Templars some years ago had a couple of options for build, but nerf after nerf, after nerf put them in a status in which jab spammer is the only way to play it. Saddly, other classes have been similarly nerfed during these years (Especially NB and DK) at the point that the once overnerfed templar is good right now.

2- The nerfs to Sorc, NB and DK have come from posts like this. Sorcs were never overperforming that much before the change to shields. Instead of nerfing an entire class, ZoS should have improved the counters, so the playing style of most sorcs wasn't affected that much. Something similar can be said of DKs and wings. Many DKs asked ZoS to let some projectiles (including strife and cripple) bypass wings and so dmg instead of changing the whole skill, but ZoS didn't mind. The results? Mageblade still sucks, while DK lost one of the 2 ranged class skills it had. Talking about NBs, the class has been utterly destroyed because of some guys asking for nerfs. And since ZoS is not going to touch cloak, they have decided that cast times on ultis, taking away fracture, reducing major exp to one skill (just the one that brings you out of cloak) and giving fear to anybody and their grandma's is the way to "tune down" NBs... and this is just about the nerfs from last year. I don't want to start talking about things like Murkmire or Morrowind.

3- Nerfs are not balance, are just homogenization. And ZoS made it clear yesterady with the nerf to IceHeart: Any set, skill or class that does not meet their standards must be hit with a sledgehammer. The standard said that Templars were over performing in the healing department, so they lost (yes, they lost) Mending... DKs were, on the other side, underperforming with healing so they got major mending in the base skill (igneous shield). Fossilize was over performing, so they created root immunity. Stuns were too much and too many so they have nerfed non class stuns (except new FG fear), but it wasn't enough because now they are increasing CC immunity. And that because a couple of kids have little patience to l2p. In the end all classes are ***, but some are over ***. And now you want templars to be over ***... which will derive into another class taking the templar slot and we will start the cycle again.

4- No nerf is deserved. This is my last point. When you have spent years playing this, farming sets, learing new mechanics, etc, a little tweak does not hurt you that much even if huge changes are done in the long run. But when you have to change the way how you play each 3 months, then it is a sympton the game is in a bad state. Then you start wondering, why do I play this ***? Every single choice I made seems wrong. Every skill that seems right will be nerfed in the near future, so do I have to build towards the weakest skills to be able to play consistently, even if I suck at that? As a NB, should I try Sap Essence, a skill so lackluster it won't be nerfed in the near future instead of taking the risk of going BiS just to be nerfed? How healthy is that? What about the set I got for buying Orsinum? I paid real money for that, to support this project, and some genius in the development team thinks tht set is too OP, so I have to put it in the trash can?

How do you feel after that? How do you feel after spending money and time in a product that is supposed to give you FUN, and that's changed in 180° just for arbitrary reasons? How do you feel when a guy who you arely know comes here and ASK the developers to nerf your class just because he is UNABLE to cope with it?

If there's something to blame, just put the blame on those guys who in the first place believed nerfing other classes was a good idea for balance... guys like you at this very same moment.

No nerf is deserved. Ever.

Xvorg wrote: »

JusticeSouldier wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

JusticeSouldier wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

JusticeSouldier wrote: »

I create this poll to put some attention to the situation when class which is absolutly best support in game, who can indefinitely heal up himself whole group, provide resourses and most important buffs...also after Elsweyr launched - has best surviveability in game, best or one of the best sustain in game, very nice damage, fast cc charge (withh offbalance built in), fast range cc (spear), chiepest in game aoe burst ultimate (without casttime), resists and general tankiness (blocking and another passives, rituals), autodebuffing healing and damaging everyone "Living Darkness" and can't be debuffed because of Extended ritual...

If someone will want to call this "complaining", create please a table, where in one column u will write all strong sides of each class, in another one weak side...result will be interesting i garantee...I play on mag and stam templars and I'm bored and annoyed. Easy mode for me, especially at magplar last 3 patches. Battlegrounds show this very clear - 1 magicka templar completly changes the balance of whole match. But there are veryoften groups of 3 or 4 magplars at the same team. Premades gone and it's very nice... now time to take a look at class balance

You clearly aren't interested in a discussion about the subject, all you are saying is "I'm right, if you disagree with me you're wither a moron or biased, ZOS nerf this now!"

It's like the most anti-intellectual useless type of feedback there is and does nothing to strive for the very balance you seek. OK, we're big on learning the lessons of history right. Last year everyone complained about NBs being too strong and if you disagreed you were just a moron or biased. So nerf them and make the game balanced.

So ZOS nerfed them. Why don't you ask a nightblade player how that worked out. So what's the lesson we learn? Hey, that worked so well, let's do the same for Templars! But not for wardens even though their "strong" side chart is just as imbalanced as the Templar. To say nothing of Stam Necros, who are predominant in PvE and will be top tier in PvP as of the patch notes.

Well, with such "class representative" nothing strange we have such balance. And whole this "representatives" system is trash.
I guess u stucked at one of few only classes or playstyles, or in only specific content, or bored to play different classes and to compare them.
It doesn't work.
Only blind person can't see what's going on in battlegrounds for example.
How huge is value of magplars there and in similar conditions.
How tanky magplar is and how universal and strong is it's tookit.
1 magplar changes everything. And it's tanky af (exp one sure) + doing huge damage.

Or, biased abuser of holes in the system.
Like it was with premade advantages - it was during 3 years of asking Zenimax to separate premades from randoms, and everytime army of abusers wrote trash in style of "l2p", all fine, "we want to play in a team with friends to get fun" etc.

I feel u're first one.

On what the hell basement u decided that i'm not "interested in discussion the subject"?
And what is the sence of this your comment in general? Goal? Let's be true dude...

(And yes, nighblade's nerf was must. Not so strong, but it was needed. Same as magsorcs before. or dks in 2015. Because - BALANCE!)

I'd discuss this further, but I don;t understand what language this is because it isn't English.

Good that word discuss is here now. Discuss please, instead of empty evaluation of form of this thread, or my poor ofc english, or me personally.
This thread is about class balance, in which magplars seems BIS now in almost everything.
In previous comment i linked Kristopher's video about clas balance, it's interesting, not very long and these things are well argued there.

I think you don't really get what Joy is trying to explain. Let me put it in simple ideas:

1- Nerfing classes for the sake of balance is stupid. It just makes the game less fun and more pigeonholed into one playing style for each class. For example Templars some years ago had a couple of options for build, but nerf after nerf, after nerf put them in a status in which jab spammer is the only way to play it. Saddly, other classes have been similarly nerfed during these years (Especially NB and DK) at the point that the once overnerfed templar is good right now.

2- The nerfs to Sorc, NB and DK have come from posts like this. Sorcs were never overperforming that much before the change to shields. Instead of nerfing an entire class, ZoS should have improved the counters, so the playing style of most sorcs wasn't affected that much. Something similar can be said of DKs and wings. Many DKs asked ZoS to let some projectiles (including strife and cripple) bypass wings and so dmg instead of changing the whole skill, but ZoS didn't mind. The results? Mageblade still sucks, while DK lost one of the 2 ranged class skills it had. Talking about NBs, the class has been utterly destroyed because of some guys asking for nerfs. And since ZoS is not going to touch cloak, they have decided that cast times on ultis, taking away fracture, reducing major exp to one skill (just the one that brings you out of cloak) and giving fear to anybody and their grandma's is the way to "tune down" NBs... and this is just about the nerfs from last year. I don't want to start talking about things like Murkmire or Morrowind.

3- Nerfs are not balance, are just homogenization. And ZoS made it clear yesterady with the nerf to IceHeart: Any set, skill or class that does not meet their standards must be hit with a sledgehammer. The standard said that Templars were over performing in the healing department, so they lost (yes, they lost) Mending... DKs were, on the other side, underperforming with healing so they got major mending in the base skill (igneous shield). Fossilize was over performing, so they created root immunity. Stuns were too much and too many so they have nerfed non class stuns (except new FG fear), but it wasn't enough because now they are increasing CC immunity. And that because a couple of kids have little patience to l2p. In the end all classes are ***, but some are over ***. And now you want templars to be over ***... which will derive into another class taking the templar slot and we will start the cycle again.

4- No nerf is deserved. This is my last point. When you have spent years playing this, farming sets, learing new mechanics, etc, a little tweak does not hurt you that much even if huge changes are done in the long run. But when you have to change the way how you play each 3 months, then it is a sympton the game is in a bad state. Then you start wondering, why do I play this ***? Every single choice I made seems wrong. Every skill that seems right will be nerfed in the near future, so do I have to build towards the weakest skills to be able to play consistently, even if I suck at that? As a NB, should I try Sap Essence, a skill so lackluster it won't be nerfed in the near future instead of taking the risk of going BiS just to be nerfed? How healthy is that? What about the set I got for buying Orsinum? I paid real money for that, to support this project, and some genius in the development team thinks tht set is too OP, so I have to put it in the trash can?

How do you feel after that? How do you feel after spending money and time in a product that is supposed to give you FUN, and that's changed in 180° just for arbitrary reasons? How do you feel when a guy who you arely know comes here and ASK the developers to nerf your class just because he is UNABLE to cope with it?

If there's something to blame, just put the blame on those guys who in the first place believed nerfing other classes was a good idea for balance... guys like you at this very same moment.

No nerf is deserved. Ever.

Unless a change to mitigation is made, or literally every other spammable in the game is buffed to the level of jabs/sweep, and a multitude of dots/debuffs are made unpurgeable, there is no way to go about balancing Templar without a nerf.

The main mistake ZOS made was buffing jabs/sweep twice in one patch. They removed the 200ms delay after channeled abilities, and changed jabs/sweep to 1000ms channel time down from 1100ms. Now you have a spammable (which does the same amount of damage as blastbones/shalks) that used to take 1.3 seconds to use only taking 1 second. When 50% of your outgoing damage is a spammable and a proc attached to it, that spammable might be a little too good.

Nirnroot420 wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Nirnroot420 wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Battlegrounds Death Recap from live server:
Onslaught: 6,092
Puncturing Sweep: 6,918
Purifying Light: 8,763
Puncturing Sweep: 6,918
Arctic Blast (diff player): 122

I've seen Onslaughts hit for more damage than that before, so I assume that the player's offensive stats aren't anything particularly crazy. Yet, he was doing nearly 7k DPS in no-CP PvP by pressing one single button, which also comes with a snare + some self healing attached. And that's leaving the Purifying Light, Burning Light procs, light attack weaves, and weapon enchant procs out of the equation.

Typically, I'm seeing Jabs/Sweeps a bit over 5k damage per cast in Battlegrounds, which is quite a bit higher than any other spammable besides whip (which gets a full +25% extra damage on my Vampire). It's good that Jabs/Sweeps aren't as clunky as they were back in the day, and it's true that they're (sometimes) harder to land than say...Force Pulse, but I think the damage needs to be toned down a bit. Not gutted, and not made interruptable (which would be a terrible idea), but they could stand some adjustment.

That death recap seems like it came from a very handsome player. I'd like to meet him tbh.

Not bad, but needs a little more junk-in-the-trunk.

to give some actual feedback, it's hard for me to find any glaring issues with sweeps/jabs. which is astonishing coming from a magplar main, i know, but hear me out.

it *is* a spammable, and it's very easily countered by dodging through them (i.e towards the player casting sweeps) or through other escape mechanisms a la shadow image, streak, or the warden's vine. what it does do exceptionally well is focus one player (the aoe damage in a no-cp PvP environment is very far from impressive) and if that player doesn't know how to escape it or otherwise compensate for it, it's pretty easy to take them down. i think we can all agree, though, that is very much a learn to play issue, and sweeps by itself rarely wins the day, requiring a supplementary skill such as Purifying Light to really hammer the damage home.

but the reason why i don't think the skill needs much adjustment is how it stacks up to other class and non-class spammables. crushing shock is simply more efficient and it's damage ceiling is higher, mostly due to the 10% penetration the skill gets as part of the destro passive, and it's exceptionally low cost. molten whip on DK is just nasty as well, and if the target's a vampire it's even more terrifying. the other classes fall behind though, but with necro's blastbones getting a much needed re-work, this problem is growing smaller. and again, sweeps is a one second channel, and be it through lag or player action, not all four of sweeps are guaranteed to hit which is a definite drawback to the skill compared to the more streamlined and direct crushing shock.

before the patch notes, I admit I was finding the heal on sweeps to be a bit problematic and overperforming this patch, but with the downward adjustments to other HoTs, this issue should be minimized, but I concede should be monitored. in regards to the snare, i think it's essential when using a melee-only channeled skill that distance directly counters, so i don't think removing it would be very healthy, especially considering as how it only exists on the first jab and lasts for a second.

essentially, i find the skill's channeled nature, melee-only effectiveness, and unreliability in any sort of latency to be large drawbacks versus a more reliable generic alternative in crushing shock, and it's advantages over crushing shock, namely the self-heal and Burning Light passives, are adequately compensated for in the skill's inherent drawbacks. i find the primary flaw in the spammable system in general is that not all classes get an option like the templar or DK do, and that the path of buffing other classes' mainstay options is the way forward in balancing spammables in general.

Not trying to be a downer here, but sweep does 40% more damage than crushing shock. It is definitely not more efficient because it ignores 10% resists, especially after the recent cost reduction to sweep (15%) with the Scalebreaker patch.

If you die to a templar you generally had time to react, trade a few shots back and disengage. Sure sometimes you get caught and get bursted down but mistakes were made if a templar bursted you down before you could defend and even trade some shots back.

This was not always the case with other classes, mainly stamblades. That class had the ability to instagib and cloak away, avoiding any counter attack. They definetly got a little overnerfed but im confident the developers will not let them wallow in despair like templars did for years.

From what ive been reading, i just dont see a clear logical argument as to what in specific about a magplar is OP.

I do believe some classes/specs need some slight individual buffs but all in all every class has a decent toolkit.

Xvorg wrote: »

I think you don't really get what Joy is trying to explain. Let me put it in simple ideas:

1- Nerfing classes for the sake of balance is stupid. It just makes the game less fun and more pigeonholed into one playing style for each class. For example Templars some years ago had a couple of options for build, but nerf after nerf, after nerf put them in a status in which jab spammer is the only way to play it. Saddly, other classes have been similarly nerfed during these years (Especially NB and DK) at the point that the once overnerfed templar is good right now.

Do u understand that word "nerf" isn't the end of the world?
I mean, it's just an instrument same as buff up - it's just a kind of an adjustment in general.
Zenimax team did many mistakes over the years.
Sometimes it was crazy ovepowering of some classes.
And nerf of them (and with meaning nerf I mean redesign of skills which caused the problem...) fixed that mistake. Sometimes in a very balanced way.
No?

Xvorg wrote: »

2- The nerfs to Sorc, NB and DK have come from posts like this. Sorcs were never overperforming that much before the change to shields. Instead of nerfing an entire class, ZoS should have improved the counters, so the playing style of most sorcs wasn't affected that much. Something similar can be said of DKs and wings. Many DKs asked ZoS to let some projectiles (including strife and cripple) bypass wings and so dmg instead of changing the whole skill, but ZoS didn't mind. The results? Mageblade still sucks, while DK lost one of the 2 ranged class skills it had. Talking about NBs, the class has been utterly destroyed because of some guys asking for nerfs. And since ZoS is not going to touch cloak, they have decided that cast times on ultis, taking away fracture, reducing major exp to one skill (just the one that brings you out of cloak) and giving fear to anybody and their grandma's is the way to "tune down" NBs... and this is just about the nerfs from last year. I don't want to start talking about things like Murkmire or Morrowind.

Things u mentioned here were problematic.
Some were mistakes, some - brilliant fixes(surprise attack was fixed nice, wings worse, but still nice in a case with snare removal - just remember how bad snares were before...).
And all they show that balance can't be reached with one magic move. it should be sequence of accuracy moves, small steps go get it

Xvorg wrote: »

3- Nerfs are not balance, are just homogenization. And ZoS made it clear yesterady with the nerf to IceHeart: Any set, skill or class that does not meet their standards must be hit with a sledgehammer. The standard said that Templars were over performing in the healing department, so they lost (yes, they lost) Mending... DKs were, on the other side, underperforming with healing so they got major mending in the base skill (igneous shield). Fossilize was over performing, so they created root immunity. Stuns were too much and too many so they have nerfed non class stuns (except new FG fear), but it wasn't enough because now they are increasing CC immunity. And that because a couple of kids have little patience to l2p. In the end all classes are ***, but some are over ***. And now you want templars to be over ***... which will derive into another class taking the templar slot and we will start the cycle again.

Homogenization is when each class has same abilities and playstyle.
And class balance is when classes have about same power in general.
These concepts are not exlusive.
U can have balance without homogenization.
U can have homogenization without balance.
So please, stop at least writing, but better thinking that nerf is tied to homogenization in a way how u wrote here.
it's a tool to control balance, not homogenization.
i want each class to be uniq. And approximately equal in general.

Xvorg wrote: »

4- No nerf is deserved. This is my last point. When you have spent years playing this, farming sets, learing new mechanics, etc, a little tweak does not hurt you that much even if huge changes are done in the long run. But when you have to change the way how you play each 3 months, then it is a sympton the game is in a bad state. Then you start wondering, why do I play this ***? Every single choice I made seems wrong. Every skill that seems right will be nerfed in the near future, so do I have to build towards the weakest skills to be able to play consistently, even if I suck at that? As a NB, should I try Sap Essence, a skill so lackluster it won't be nerfed in the near future instead of taking the risk of going BiS just to be nerfed? How healthy is that? What about the set I got for buying Orsinum? I paid real money for that, to support this project, and some genius in the development team thinks tht set is too OP, so I have to put it in the trash can?

How do you feel after that? How do you feel after spending money and time in a product that is supposed to give you FUN, and that's changed in 180° just for arbitrary reasons? How do you feel when a guy who you arely know comes here and ASK the developers to nerf your class just because he is UNABLE to cope with it?

If there's something to blame, just put the blame on those guys who in the first place believed nerfing other classes was a good idea for balance... guys like you at this very same moment.

No nerf is deserved. Ever.

Buff or nerf here are only terms for changes which gives more or less power to class.
Stop writing *** against simple term which is not bad or good itself.
All depends on how exactly it's done and what result it brings us
Templar deserve to be in a raw with another classes.

Joy_Division wrote: »

OK first of all I have played every class except nightblade extensively since Launch. I not only know what they can do, but also what they used to be able to do.

Most of the things u wrote during these years were fair, not everything but most and I truly respect this, in eso very little number or players really like to investigate combat system, not just use what others said.
And out of this discussion, I think u know eso deeply.
Inside it it feels like u are more distant from gameplay last 2 years.

Joy_Division wrote: »

Secondly, the approach of "balance" to just nerf what you think is BiS sucks It has no direction, strives towards no goal or gameplay objective, seeks no identity whether through class or play-style, and works against all of these goals. Or are you going to try and tell me it's fun when ZOS buffs DoTs by 100%, realizes they are too strong, then nerfs them by 150%, then realizes that's too much and so buffs them back. It just wastes time, resources, and everyone's patience. It is so counter-productive I am astounded it happens and talented people basically say, "Yeah, this is totally the way we want to improve our product." All that winds up happening is we swing from one wild extreme to another, all the time patch after patch, month after month, year after year, of basic fundamental issues go unresolved because PvPers whine every freaking patch when they die to whatever. So just because Templars are good, fun to play, popular and actually work after 5 years of trying to fix them, the approach to this supposed "problem" is not to undo the goal of the game - make a class fun to play - but to take a step back, congratulate yourself for finally getting it right after five years, and then ask, "how can we replicate this for the other classes?"

I create the discussion about that fact that in current gameplay magplars are overoperforming as any other class, at the same time being the most valuable class for groups.
Discussion means I get attention to this. Nerf is only word, term, which means something should be changed.
From my side, such change can be redesign of how work Purges in general...(with very very accuracy and very very small steps sure).
Also, one of subjects of my hate is skill Living Darkness... especially visually, more ugly is only Dark Cloak.
But functionally, auto heal, auto damage, autodebuff...one skill...Or another morf, which has no counter if only u have purge (so templar or necromancer...trash).
Also we should get removing of Cast times for ultimates and adjusting of every Ultimate for classes indefinitety to save uniqness and reach the goal, which was slightly reached with such temporary bad solution (from my point of view it was too big general damage for PvP with Elsweyr's changes, and it wasn't reached with cast times just gave sourse of frustration...). Or, in worse case adding cast time to templar's ultimate and to dk's take flight until problem will be solved...(I'm completly for first way, cast times are freaking trash)

Things with dots, creation of tank meta: due to removing bleed's main property, removing most of the ways for Major Defile (removing of it from Reverberating bash was nice idea, but Zos were must predict what it will cause with another changes after) and making high max health and resists almost must to be with Major Vulnerability welcome to eso...
Upcoming cooldown for off-balance...
These things are mistakes. And they are not nerfs of one or another certain class. They touch some classes more but it's another type of things than i asked for in this post.

Joy_Division wrote: »

Thirdly, if you agree with Kristopher's video, you ought to edit your original post because the two are not making the same argument. Also, Kristopher's lowest grade is a B. I don;t agree because there are most certainly average classes out there.

I agree with many things in his video, but not with everything.
Also, I never rank something with letters, these grades A, A+, B etc means not much for me.
I think in 1-100, 1-10, 0,01-1.
I guess if we ask Kristopher to use grade in numbers, there will be much more accuracy from him.
But it's his video, I linked it because it's most close and actual from what I heard or saw for this patch from content creators, who can be called competent. I guess Fengrush could say something about this in his streams, but I watch him too rare to find it

Joy_Division wrote: »

Also there are deeper reasons why templars are doing well that goes beyond "over-performing skills". Because many of ZOS's changes basically try to hold bad players hands through cyrodiil so they don;t just die when meeting experienced players, this has amplified the classes that are "easier" to play and made it much more difficult for classes that have a high skill cap. Magplar and Mag Sorc are the two easiest classes to play; Stam NB and Mag NB (if you try to do anything that's not a calurrion proc set ganker) are hard to play. It's no coincidence the former two are strong while the latter struggle.

In any case I don't support primitivization of gameplay. New players should learn the game to be competitive. It's must.
Let's please recognize where we have new players complaining, and where there are things, exposed with experienced players from many sides of sourse of frustrations.

My goal for combat consists of:
1. uniquiness of each class
2. balance of classes with clear policy (for eso I keep orient on ESO ouroboros...This logo isn't just a logo imho)
3. clear, consistent delivery of information in combat (system of notifications, animations, visual and sound effects)
I guess i could write more here, but it's late today, I almost sleeping at keyboard while typing this.

Czekoludek wrote: »

Templars are great, really powerful and fun now. The problem is, many classes are weak, nerfed by ZoS to the ground. We should BUFF weak classes that are not so fun to play, not nerf the good ones. Stop with this endless circle of nerfs, without it every class would bring something to the table and be interesting, full of unique, niche builds

Best advice ever!

I would not put it insanely higher than any other class in the game in terms of general PvP but I think how cheese it is comes from how easily impactful a horrible magplar player really is when you're fighting against a group with one. The fact that rite of passage alone is so strong and is so cheap of an ultimate is astounding to me, all you really need is to build for 40k+ health and hold block while spamming honor the dead and waiting for that ultimate to pop at the VERY least as a magplar healer and you're already so impactful.