I'm sick of the PVP Dizzy Swing spam meta

amir412 · February 2020

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Unfortunately they insist on ranged spammables on melee focused classes. Combine that with the nerfs to heroic slash and steel nado and the result is almost every stam spec is using a 2 hander. Death of variety.

Edit: The nerf to dots also plays a large role in bow and dual wield not being very popular choices, as both weapon lines have dots and when dots are not present blocking is significantly more efficient.

@Ragnarock41 I feel like the real reason they do this, it creates desyncs when u ani cancel melee based spammable,
So with ranged spammable the server's hamster has time to breath.

ecru · February 2020

amir412 wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Unfortunately they insist on ranged spammables on melee focused classes. Combine that with the nerfs to heroic slash and steel nado and the result is almost every stam spec is using a 2 hander. Death of variety.

Edit: The nerf to dots also plays a large role in bow and dual wield not being very popular choices, as both weapon lines have dots and when dots are not present blocking is significantly more efficient.

@Ragnarock41 I feel like the real reason they do this, it creates desyncs when u ani cancel melee based spammable,
So with ranged spammable the server's hamster has time to breath.

The issue with the servers is tied to the way damage and healing is calculated, not necessarily ranged or melee. This is part of the reason spiked armor is having it's range reduced. In eso, unlike most other games, any change in stats retroactively applies to abilities already applied like dots, bleeds, heals, etc, so every tick of damage, every heal, every.. everything, has it's damage recalculated in every single instance. In other mmos, if you apply a dot, the dot's damage will be based on your stats when you cast it (and your target's stats), and gaining or losing stats won't modify any ticks of the dot. The damage is "set" when you cast it, and nothing can change it, so the server doesn't have to do any work to figure out how much tick of damage each dot is going to do. I don't think the lag issue will ever be fixed unless they somehow manage to brute force it with much faster hardware, or completely revamp the way abilities interact with player stats.

5cript · February 2020

They should buff dual wield for that imho.

MincVinyl · February 2020

ecru wrote: »

amir412 wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Unfortunately they insist on ranged spammables on melee focused classes. Combine that with the nerfs to heroic slash and steel nado and the result is almost every stam spec is using a 2 hander. Death of variety.

Edit: The nerf to dots also plays a large role in bow and dual wield not being very popular choices, as both weapon lines have dots and when dots are not present blocking is significantly more efficient.

@Ragnarock41 I feel like the real reason they do this, it creates desyncs when u ani cancel melee based spammable,
So with ranged spammable the server's hamster has time to breath.

The issue with the servers is tied to the way damage and healing is calculated, not necessarily ranged or melee. This is part of the reason spiked armor is having it's range reduced. In eso, unlike most other games, any change in stats retroactively applies to abilities already applied like dots, bleeds, heals, etc, so every tick of damage, every heal, every.. everything, has it's damage recalculated in every single instance. In other mmos, if you apply a dot, the dot's damage will be based on your stats when you cast it (and your target's stats), and gaining or losing stats won't modify any ticks of the dot. The damage is "set" when you cast it, and nothing can change it, so the server doesn't have to do any work to figure out how much tick of damage each dot is going to do. I don't think the lag issue will ever be fixed unless they somehow manage to brute force it with much faster hardware, or completely revamp the way abilities interact with player stats.

To add to that, they could also revert the system to not allow over time effects to stack like it did before in the game. Not only does this help fix lag drastically, but it rewards build diversity, solo/smallman, group coordination, inclass options and can just apply through battlespirit. There are alot of funky things we see happen when the servers get overworked, if you get the chance go check out lowbie pvp and you will see how well the servers should work(less proc/dot builds/cp/seige/ball zergs). Considering I dont see zos investing in new servers to cater to their smallest playerbase I really hope they start looking for less costly solutions. If these solutions affect zergs, zos will have to bite the bullet and just state that the change is to reduce server lag.

Ragnarock41 · February 2020

amir412 wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Unfortunately they insist on ranged spammables on melee focused classes. Combine that with the nerfs to heroic slash and steel nado and the result is almost every stam spec is using a 2 hander. Death of variety.

Edit: The nerf to dots also plays a large role in bow and dual wield not being very popular choices, as both weapon lines have dots and when dots are not present blocking is significantly more efficient.

@Ragnarock41 I feel like the real reason they do this, it creates desyncs when u ani cancel melee based spammable,
So with ranged spammable the server's hamster has time to breath.

That makes literally no sense. Even if it creates desyncs heroic slash and suprise attack still exist and function normally. If melee spammables caused hp desyncs they would change those first.

I'm just disappointed that all the class identity promises turned out to be stonefist of all things. But then again , I knew and said it from the beginning its all PR talk to calm the fires. To all the hypocrites that ridiculed me I was right once more, but in all honesty I really wanted the combat team to ''wow'' me with a good, well thought out change to the skill.

Nyladreas · February 2020

Fur_like_snow wrote: »

Take the worthless gap closer off flying blade none asked for that skill to be changed in the first place. That skill should be the DW spammable but on live it’s just awful.

NO DON'T DO THAT.

You remember how the DK spammable turned out after they decided to take a ranged ability as the winning candidate???

YEAH HELL NO. Just make flurry actually Decent and useful and remove the horrible channel. Or even twin slashes since that dot got nerfed into uselessness.

x48rph · February 2020

ecru wrote: »

amir412 wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Unfortunately they insist on ranged spammables on melee focused classes. Combine that with the nerfs to heroic slash and steel nado and the result is almost every stam spec is using a 2 hander. Death of variety.

Edit: The nerf to dots also plays a large role in bow and dual wield not being very popular choices, as both weapon lines have dots and when dots are not present blocking is significantly more efficient.

@Ragnarock41 I feel like the real reason they do this, it creates desyncs when u ani cancel melee based spammable,
So with ranged spammable the server's hamster has time to breath.

The issue with the servers is tied to the way damage and healing is calculated, not necessarily ranged or melee. This is part of the reason spiked armor is having it's range reduced. In eso, unlike most other games, any change in stats retroactively applies to abilities already applied like dots, bleeds, heals, etc, so every tick of damage, every heal, every.. everything, has it's damage recalculated in every single instance. In other mmos, if you apply a dot, the dot's damage will be based on your stats when you cast it (and your target's stats), and gaining or losing stats won't modify any ticks of the dot. The damage is "set" when you cast it, and nothing can change it, so the server doesn't have to do any work to figure out how much tick of damage each dot is going to do. I don't think the lag issue will ever be fixed unless they somehow manage to brute force it with much faster hardware, or completely revamp the way abilities interact with player stats.

That would actually make so much more sense too. You've already cast the ability so It shouldn't ramp up (or decrease) in power for things you do afterwards.

Adenoma · February 2020

I don’t get why stone fist isn’t just a DK turning their fist to stone and punching the crap out of someone. Making that ranged just has about zero flavor to it.

I still follow the forums because I love this game and hope it’ll improve and I’ll come back, but as of now there’s just so little diversity. Even amongst Magicka builds, the choices for spammables are pretty streamlined.

Also, I dream of the day of going back to being able to bash cancel with a S&B. It was skillful play and deeply satisfying to manage resources while closing out kills. Doing that and then bar swapping to a 2h back bar to execute.

amir412 · February 2020

Adenoma wrote: »

I don’t get why stone fist isn’t just a DK turning their fist to stone and punching the crap out of someone. Making that ranged just has about zero flavor to it.

I still follow the forums because I love this game and hope it’ll improve and I’ll come back, but as of now there’s just so little diversity. Even amongst Magicka builds, the choices for spammables are pretty streamlined.

Also, I dream of the day of going back to being able to bash cancel with a S&B. It was skillful play and deeply satisfying to manage resources while closing out kills. Doing that and then bar swapping to a 2h back bar to execute.

Well, that gameplay somehwat works on Stam Necro (for me at least) as it has major defile and nice burst,
But its still way superior to use Dizzy Swing instead.

Abyssmol · February 2020

KillsAllElves wrote: »

amir412 wrote: »

KillsAllElves wrote: »

And people will continue to use dswing

Because that's all what they know, Give them viable options, and u will see some diversity.
I remember when people used only heroic>bash combo, but then dizzy came, so your point is?

not every body wants to use sword and board abilities. not every body spams dswing. and saying "that's all they know" is higly ignorant!
players do have viable options! however constantly nerfing abilities makes things worse in this game. allowing the defensive capabilities of SnB in pvp only exacerbates the problem.

one of the dumbest things zos has implemented in eso was the ability to use SnB in pvp.

SnB is fine. the dumbest thing ZOS has implemented in ESO was the ability to block cast a skill. That's were SnB shines.

Squidgaurd · February 2020

jabs is godly while rapid strikes is dog doo doo as well as any other spammable besides dizzy and suprise attack give us better options.

KillsAllElves · February 2020

Abyssmol wrote: »

KillsAllElves wrote: »

amir412 wrote: »

KillsAllElves wrote: »

And people will continue to use dswing

Because that's all what they know, Give them viable options, and u will see some diversity.
I remember when people used only heroic>bash combo, but then dizzy came, so your point is?

not every body wants to use sword and board abilities. not every body spams dswing. and saying "that's all they know" is higly ignorant!
players do have viable options! however constantly nerfing abilities makes things worse in this game. allowing the defensive capabilities of SnB in pvp only exacerbates the problem.

one of the dumbest things zos has implemented in eso was the ability to use SnB in pvp.

SnB is fine. the dumbest thing ZOS has implemented in ESO was the ability to block cast a skill. That's were SnB shines.

Too much defensive capabilites.

wheem_ESO · February 2020

It actually kinda seems like the stamina meta in BGs right now consists of getting PvE weapons and spamming Brawler for some redonkulous AOE/undodgeable damage numbers. I've literally seen over 7k damage hits in no-CP without Onslaught being used first.

#Keep-Your-PvE-Weapons-Out-Of-My-PvP

MincVinyl · February 2020

Abyssmol wrote: »

KillsAllElves wrote: »

amir412 wrote: »

KillsAllElves wrote: »

And people will continue to use dswing

Because that's all what they know, Give them viable options, and u will see some diversity.
I remember when people used only heroic>bash combo, but then dizzy came, so your point is?

not every body wants to use sword and board abilities. not every body spams dswing. and saying "that's all they know" is higly ignorant!
players do have viable options! however constantly nerfing abilities makes things worse in this game. allowing the defensive capabilities of SnB in pvp only exacerbates the problem.

one of the dumbest things zos has implemented in eso was the ability to use SnB in pvp.

SnB is fine. the dumbest thing ZOS has implemented in ESO was the ability to block cast a skill. That's were SnB shines.

Well before if someone wanted to just hold block they had to worry about dots hitting every block check within a gcd. Since dots go through block now, so that means they don't affect the stam. This leads to playstyles like blockplar, who can block the direct damage coming in and just purify off the dots that go through block.

DemonDruaga · February 2020

Let's just revert the 1h shield changes and i will drop dizzy swing.

Brandathorbel · February 2020

Fur_like_snow wrote: »

Take the worthless gap closer off flying blade none asked for that skill to be changed in the first place. That skill should be the DW spammable but on live it’s just awful.

agree. they made it into a spammable, i got used to it and liked it and then a couple patch later they said, nah lets not keep it as a spammable.

they keep talking about standards and their vision but seems to me there really is no standard and their vision is really blurry

SodanTok · February 2020

So either ZoS buffs all those 10+ spammables in the game including all the magicka versions or they nerf dizzy (jabs worth of mentioning)... hmhmhm what will they do I really have nooo idea

Edziu · February 2020

TheFM wrote: »

amir412 wrote: »

It's time to buff other spammable for stam classes, and make them viable.
ANY other spammable i tried beside Dizzy Swing placed me in a BIG disadvantage.

Alright, You made dizzy nicer and now EVERYONE, EVERY single stam player use this skill.

I'm fine with Dizzy Swing gets it's place at the wall of honor again,
But when 99% of stam players use this skill, you know something is wrong.
I dont ask you to nerf it, But simply buff and adjust animations other dead spammable and provide us more options.

List of skills you can adjust to open more options:

Heroic/Deep slash - My kind of gameplay, it feels like uselss, unless youre a PVE tank.
Power Slam - How the hell, bashing your shield into someone else face does not damage than slicing them?!
Hidden Blade - Good stats wise, but no one will ever use a ranged spammable on stam class, unless their snipers.

DK:
Stone Giant - See HiddenBlade

Stamcro:
Flame Skull - See HiddenBlade

Stamsorc:
It needs a spammable, cuz in this class case, its actually forced to use dizzy

Stamden:
Dive - See HiddenBlade

Give us more options and add depth to combat.
Its so boring at the moment.

Stamina needs exactly 0 buffs atm. It has al the best sets and skills atm, save for magicka Templar. And with the next update will pretty much have major berserk on demand. The favouritism toward stamina is palpable.

so because of stupidness via adding more stupid/broken sets for stamina is reason why stamina cant get fixed fromb eing useless to beaing in use skills, spammables?

thanks for your logic

and so because stamina is so op because of sets on it....lets buff magica skills enough to their "weak" sets so they will do 2x mroe damage if not more in crap builds than stamina without meta builds

MincVinyl · February 2020

Well i see dizzy is just a joke now, they are saying they added a snare because it is hard to land. There is only one aim check on dizzy, it is a point and click spammable now. Not to mention snaring and rooting on a dizzy build is counter intuitive since some players tend to roll to counter snares/roots these days since sources of immunity are garbage. It was harder to land back with the longer cast and double player model aim check. Even then I would not say it needed a snare.

Fur_like_snow · February 2020

Lol I like how it’s written “while we are okay with the loss”. Does the game lag at ZeniMax HQ? Cause I feel like the guy saying it’s difficult to land consecutive d swings is the guy lagging outta his mind on live not playing on a pts.

Ragnaroek93 · February 2020

And they just buffed Dizzy

ElvenVeil · February 2020

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

And they just buffed Dizzy

wait what ? removing reliable stun for a snare is a buff? unless it is sarcasm I am very confused about this statement :P

Alienoutlaw · February 2020

if i saw this on an episode of Ripleys believe it or not i would be strongly in the made up camp, literally mind blown by this change

SodanTok · February 2020

In other words the only cast time ability in the game that in the past received incredible buffs that had no precedents and were not repeated for any other cast time ability in order to improve its ease of use just received buff (no matter if you think its net loss compared to other changes) because its okay since its hard to land skill and compared (in difficulty of landing) to the only channeling ability that received similar attention in recent patches.

There is only explanation for all of this - ZoS plays only on their test server and long time go they made all other cast time and channeling abilities easier to use or strong enough its worth it and forgot to ever release it on live.

katorga · February 2020

ElvenVeil wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

And they just buffed Dizzy

wait what ? removing reliable stun for a snare is a buff? unless it is sarcasm I am very confused about this statement :P

Meh. They pushed a bunch of skills, CP, and sets toward off balance in the last few patches. Now they fundamentally change off-balance mechanics and have to go back and "do something" about the collateral damage.

Throwing a snare on DS because they effed up the off-balance mechanic is just "do something".

MartiniDaniels · February 2020

ElvenVeil wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

And they just buffed Dizzy

wait what ? removing reliable stun for a snare is a buff? unless it is sarcasm I am very confused about this statement :P

You will have everything - off-balance (though nerfed), stun (if you need more damage then from medium-heavy attack) and pretty good snare for remaining 15 seconds

tbh this is exactly what was lacking in dizzy - when somebody fast is withdrawing after receiving couple of dizzies and you simply don't have GCD to activate your speed buff... of course there are snare immunity periods.. but still it brings dizzy closer to jabs in terms of efficiency.

NBrookus · February 2020

ZOS: Removes 30% snare from Sacred Ground defensive passive
Players: Cool, we need fewer snares
ZOS: Adds 40% snare to hardest hitting spammable in the game
Players:

Fur_like_snow · February 2020

Just why does d swing need a snare? It’s not like half of Cyrodiil isn’t scooting around with immunity from RaT. Or just simply dodge roll for immunity..or purify.

Sanguinor2 · February 2020

Fur_like_snow wrote: »

Just why does d swing need a snare? It’s not like half of Cyrodiil isn’t scooting around with immunity from RaT. Or just simply dodge roll for immunity..or purify.

Isnt it obvious? Now if you want to kite someone on a class without snares you can just walk up to him, Dizzy him, turn around 180 Degrees and sprint away!

amir412 · February 2020

The changes to DS just shows u how the well ZOS knows it's game.