Stone Giant one more time

GeorgeBlack · February 2020

Dk destruction and fury as per your own words. Dual wield warrior picture.
Flames and what not in back ground.

What does zos do?
Spend time to make a stone telekinisis animation.
Not even molten or anything.
Just orbs.

Why are you so obstinate Zos?
Why dont you give DKs what they want?
An animation (since you made our Reflective Plate useless) that we like.

Why so hell bend in making something no DragonKnight likes?

And the function....
Melee, aoe, 3 cast CC, projectile, group improving (but not class improving) stagger stacks.

What are you doing?

ecru · February 2020

Yeah I honestly don't get it. Did any stamdks ask for a ranged spammable? No, they wanted something good they could use in melee instead of relying on weapon abilities. You won't see many people using this ability because there are still better choices in weapon skill lines. I haven't tested it in pve but stone giant in general doesn't work great in pvp even with the stun because heals are simply too high to rely on a weak spammable to kill anyone, and you can't use it to apply pressure because other ways to apply pressure, like dots and bleeds, have been nerfed to be worse than they've ever been. The only advantage gained using stone giant is activating the mountain's blessing passive on cooldown, but you're still taking advantage of that using fossilize if you slot it, and fragmented shield, which every DK slots.

Onefrkncrzypope · February 2020

They invested in the animation. It won't change.

Fur_like_snow · February 2020

It looks like an attack that the enemies in ruins of mazatun would use. The animation has definitely improved.

Miloscpolski · February 2020

Fur_like_snow wrote: »

It looks like an attack that the enemies in ruins of mazatun would use. The animation has definitely improved.

Yes, its looks nice.

Joxer61 · February 2020

ecru wrote: »

You won't see many people using this ability because there are still better choices in weapon skill lines

Lol, pretty much all the top dps parses in Esologs the Stamdks are using it.....so um, yea, its doing something. Spoke to
one such Stamdk player and was told that it adds quite a bit of the dps to the group, so well worth it.

Guess it comes down to what you want and like...

MashmalloMan · February 2020

I like the animation and appeal this time around. Get over a stam whip, get over a poison ability, move on.

The class is built with 3 skill lines, Flame(Poison Flame), Dragon and Earth. The ability comes from the Earth skill line and does physical damage which 100% matches how other classes behave and how they wanted to flesh out other aspects of DKs, aka the Earth side of them..

The only thing that needs to change is the actual mechanics of the skill. Remove the cast time and ranged attacks, the 2 part animation of the skill is really nice and I wish more abilities did this. Add stagger to the first aoe attack. Decrease the stagger amount, but keep the total the same, requiring at least 4 casts to reach max. This may help a little with tanks slotting it over stam dks for stagger. Some have suggested a scaling option which would work well too of course, but forcing tanks to use it more often might kill it for them.

ecru · February 2020

Joxer61 wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

You won't see many people using this ability because there are still better choices in weapon skill lines

Lol, pretty much all the top dps parses in Esologs the Stamdks are using it.....so um, yea, its doing something. Spoke to
one such Stamdk player and was told that it adds quite a bit of the dps to the group, so well worth it.

Guess it comes down to what you want and like...

I thought it was pretty obvious that I was referring to pvp.

satanio · February 2020

Joxer61 wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

You won't see many people using this ability because there are still better choices in weapon skill lines

Lol, pretty much all the top dps parses in Esologs the Stamdks are using it.....so um, yea, its doing something. Spoke to
one such Stamdk player and was told that it adds quite a bit of the dps to the group, so well worth it.

Guess it comes down to what you want and like...

Right now on pts, I am not able to make a static rotation in which I would maintain 100% seething fury and 100% stagger in a 14 skill rotation. I either needed to cut it down to 13 skills (and losing last tick of Claw and Breath - losing chunk of DPS), and it was very unreliable, I could not imagine maintaining it in real trial environment. Or I could be using stonefist 8 times in a rotation - but losing rapid strike (effective with stagger + DW execute passive) that results in losing chunk of DPS too.

In the end, I have just given up the idea of maintaining 100% 3x stagger. The results were good: uptimes - Seething fury(3) 100%, Stagger(1) 90%, stagger(2) 70%, stagger(3) 40%
Which results in 120 stagger increase out of 180 over the whole fight. In comparison, I was able to maintain 100% of stagger(3) last patch and that was 135 dmg increase back then.
My DPS has not changed and that’s why I am not happy nor sad, I am just weirded out by the fact that the change to first cast, meele AoE, is inconsistent with other 3 ranged casts - bad for bow/bow DK.

Valenor · February 2020

looks nice but can still be used as an asset for obsidian shard. Stonefist could be a cool looking melee skill involving ramming the opponent with and overhead stone fist as it has been suggested in several other threads.

Onefrkncrzypope · February 2020

Joxer61 wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

You won't see many people using this ability because there are still better choices in weapon skill lines

Lol, pretty much all the top dps parses in Esologs the Stamdks are using it.....so um, yea, its doing something. Spoke to
one such Stamdk player and was told that it adds quite a bit of the dps to the group, so well worth it.

Guess it comes down to what you want and like...

The top two sdk dps is a one that uses flurry as a spammable and keeps stagger up. The other is a bow build. You don't see stonefist as a spammable until around the 70k mark. Using that skill as a spammable loses dps for the SDK. Also spoke to everyone else and they shoved it onto the DK tank if at all. The buff is too weak, the damage is too weak and now has an empty cast that's a channel.

It will only go on a tank that will curse the skill until the channel is dropped and the SDK will completely ignore it.

So not worth it.

robpr · February 2020

Thematically makes sense - magicka DKs have ability to fight at range but their spammable is melee, while stamina DKs are melee with ranged spammable. Cast time was probably added to decrease viability to use it as tanks.
But it doesnt feel right.
Imo whole charges mechanics should be pushed to Obsidian Shard (while charges being free to cast), and Stone Giant should just turning fist to stone and punch in the face.

Canned_Apples · February 2020

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

They invested in the animation. It won't change.

it's actually s series of recycled animations.

Brandathorbel · February 2020

robpr wrote: »

Thematically makes sense - magicka DKs have ability to fight at range but their spammable is melee, while stamina DKs are melee with ranged spammable. Cast time was probably added to decrease viability to use it as tanks.
But it doesnt feel right.
Imo whole charges mechanics should be pushed to Obsidian Shard (while charges being free to cast), and Stone Giant should just turning fist to stone and punch in the face.

well theres the answer. make all the whips stamina based and make the stones into fireballs and make it all magicka

MellowMagic · February 2020

If they got rid of the cast time, made the first cast stagger, reduced the range to 7m and increased the damage it could be useable.

Altyrann · February 2020

MellowMagic wrote: »

If they got rid of the cast time, made the first cast stagger, reduced the range to 7m and increased the damage it could be useable.

Still not sure about forcing it to melee. As long as it works in melee and has a suitable animation why not make it usable at range too? Agree wholeheartedly on the rest.

JusticeSouldier · February 2020

Altyrann wrote: »

MellowMagic wrote: »

If they got rid of the cast time, made the first cast stagger, reduced the range to 7m and increased the damage it could be useable.

Still not sure about forcing it to melee. As long as it works in melee and has a suitable animation why not make it usable at range too? Agree wholeheartedly on the rest.

they can't do projectile working like melee skill in melee range. it will cause the situations when targets gets not enouch informations of what from they get a damage.
Projectile Stonefist is absolutly dead idea.
this skill is very frustrating with it's animation and basis at completly melee based class.
It should be Melee punch to fit stamdk's theme/nature.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler please, make Stonefist a melee Punch. this is what stamdk should be...

Altyrann · February 2020

JusticeSouldier wrote: »

Altyrann wrote: »

MellowMagic wrote: »

If they got rid of the cast time, made the first cast stagger, reduced the range to 7m and increased the damage it could be useable.

Still not sure about forcing it to melee. As long as it works in melee and has a suitable animation why not make it usable at range too? Agree wholeheartedly on the rest.

they can't do projectile working like melee skill in melee range. it will cause the situations when targets gets not enouch informations of what from they get a damage.
Projectile Stonefist is absolutly dead idea.
this skill is very frustrating with it's animation and basis at completly melee based class.
It should be Melee punch to fit stamdk's theme/nature.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler please, make Stonefist a melee Punch. this is what stamdk should be...

Ah, PvE here so very much on favour of having a ranged option on it if it doesn't stop melee players using it (but utterly unconcerned about what the animation is or whether it is projectile or some other solution).

Onefrkncrzypope · February 2020

Canned_Apples wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

They invested in the animation. It won't change.

it's actually s series of recycled animations.

What are you saying that they recycled the psijic orbs with a reskin and the stomp from somewhere........ I know

juhislihis19 · February 2020

The very creation, handling and the "work" they've done for this skill is just one, total s*itshow. Ironic really.

luen79rwb17_ESO · February 2020

DKs are officially the sumo wrestlers in Tamriel. Make sure to buy your token and make your DK character fat just for the sake of immersion.

MellowMagic · February 2020

Altyrann wrote: »

MellowMagic wrote: »

If they got rid of the cast time, made the first cast stagger, reduced the range to 7m and increased the damage it could be useable.

Still not sure about forcing it to melee. As long as it works in melee and has a suitable animation why not make it usable at range too? Agree wholeheartedly on the rest.

the damage is lower because it is ranged, I'd rather it hit harder and be melee range

Valenor · February 2020

As of 5.3.3 stamina DK does not feel fluid with this iteration of stone giant. The cast time on the ground pound makes it sluggish and unresponsive. They missed an opportunity to either remove the cast time as suggested so many times in other threads or turn it into a proper melee skill that would probably make many people feel like real melee fighters. Earth bending is cool, but not quite what I'd expect from a stam character.

ElvenVeil · February 2020

MellowMagic wrote: »

the damage is lower because it is ranged, I'd rather it hit harder and be melee range

don't think that is an actual thing in eso.. if you look at how various skills scale, there is nothing that indicates that ranged skills do less damage than melee. more the opposite if anything

Altyrann · February 2020

The stagger on first cast is useful, especially if it applies to multiple targets. The cast time remains clunky and the swapping from AoE to ST and melee to range being out of your immediate control work against this being useful in real content.

Altyrann · February 2020

ElvenVeil wrote: »

MellowMagic wrote: »

the damage is lower because it is ranged, I'd rather it hit harder and be melee range

don't think that is an actual thing in eso.. if you look at how various skills scale, there is nothing that indicates that ranged skills do less damage than melee. more the opposite if anything

I've not seen anything suggesting it is lower as a result of being ranged.

MartiniDaniels · February 2020

Altyrann wrote: »

ElvenVeil wrote: »

MellowMagic wrote: »

the damage is lower because it is ranged, I'd rather it hit harder and be melee range

don't think that is an actual thing in eso.. if you look at how various skills scale, there is nothing that indicates that ranged skills do less damage than melee. more the opposite if anything

I've not seen anything suggesting it is lower as a result of being ranged.

Ranged abilities always have less damage and sometimes cost more. For example concealed weapon vs swallow soul - concealed is cheaper and deals more damage. Of course it is ZO$ and we have exceptions like elemental weapon...
Also DK has passive - 7m range of melee abilities. It is really big difference in practice... so 7m melee spammable stamina ability can be a real signature (like whip is). Anyways ZOS could leave ranged stonefist for PVE with few tweaks (and removed cast time), and grant flame lash morphs same treatment as soul trap - i.e. if stamina is higher deals and scales with poison damage, if magicka is higher - deals and scales with fire damage.

Ragnarock41 · February 2020

Altyrann wrote: »

The stagger on first cast is useful, especially if it applies to multiple targets. The cast time remains clunky and the swapping from AoE to ST and melee to range being out of your immediate control work against this being useful in real content.

Except its only one AoE stack and you get the AoE stomp once per every 4 use. So as I said in my initial re-review of stonefist its in a place where it wants to do multiple tasks and fail miserably at each and every one of them.

They need to either make it a complete AoE or pure ranged spammable.(edit: melee spammable would be the natural thing to go for but this is zenimax so I don't even expect them do to the right thing in the next 2 years minimum) I don't think stamDk even needs a class spammable at this point, Its very sad to see stamDks use rapid strikes and stonefist at the same time because its such a miserable excuse for a ''spammable'', yet they can't give up on the stagger mechanic, so they end up using two spammables.

For PvP It was and still is a bad ability with no reason to justify its existance.(many compared stonefist to stuff such as warden birds or stamsorc daggers however both of those abilities have very satisfying passive and active secondary benefits while stonefist has a raid buff on it and a very unreliable stun.)

At this point I can't really come at a logical conclusion about why they're doing things the way they do, maybe the dev team does truly hate this class or they literally don't have more than 5 minutes each day to spend on it. Or maybe they truly are horrible at this. I'm baffled at the fact that these people are getting paid to do things I've said should be done from day one , but instead do it over the course of years.

The more comical fact is Dks don't even need a class spammable anymore. That was something commonly asked before they reworked all the weapon spammables.Cause people were sick and tired of SnB/2h builds. After they reworked the spammables the need for a class spammable was already gone, and stonefist could have been something entirely different, something that requires thought to use and in return rewards the player, like how warden has sub assault, nbs have assassin bow proc, necros have sub assault etc..

In either case I have won the argument regarding the fact that this whole class identity thing is nothing but PR talk. ZOS themselves proved it. But really, I did want them to come up with something actually good so I would stop crying over it and instead actually praise them, but no. That is not happening anytime soon.

Xvorg · February 2020

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Altyrann wrote: »

ElvenVeil wrote: »

MellowMagic wrote: »

the damage is lower because it is ranged, I'd rather it hit harder and be melee range

don't think that is an actual thing in eso.. if you look at how various skills scale, there is nothing that indicates that ranged skills do less damage than melee. more the opposite if anything

I've not seen anything suggesting it is lower as a result of being ranged.

Ranged abilities always have less damage and sometimes cost more. For example concealed weapon vs swallow soul - concealed is cheaper and deals more damage. Of course it is ZO$ and we have exceptions like elemental weapon...
Also DK has passive - 7m range of melee abilities. It is really big difference in practice... so 7m melee spammable stamina ability can be a real signature (like whip is). Anyways ZOS could leave ranged stonefist for PVE with few tweaks (and removed cast time), and grant flame lash morphs same treatment as soul trap - i.e. if stamina is higher deals and scales with poison damage, if magicka is higher - deals and scales with fire damage.

just give up. ZoS wants something "creative" over useful, even if that means making the skill non-viable

Ragnarock41 · February 2020

Altyrann wrote: »

MellowMagic wrote: »

If they got rid of the cast time, made the first cast stagger, reduced the range to 7m and increased the damage it could be useable.

Still not sure about forcing it to melee. As long as it works in melee and has a suitable animation why not make it usable at range too? Agree wholeheartedly on the rest.

Allright so, I realize I'm usually mocking people for being confused about why ranged vs melee is such a big difference but it is clear I should explain myself. I can not blame PvE players since raid bosses or mobs do not have the type of AI that counterplays your moves and/or use abilities. Its understandable.

Ranged spammable on a class where you are primarily using melee abilities is a big problem because range means its a projectile(there are exceptions however SF is a projectile.), that means it travels through space instead of landing instantly when you press the button , has a minimum travel time and it can be countered by defensive spells such as shimmering shield, reflective plate, spell wall etc.

By nature of your class, you are almost literally forced to wear heavy armor and get in close and personal, so when somebody is playing the class effectively that extra range is a disadvantage ,not an advantage. Spammables , unlike what their name might suggest, are not spammed brainlessly in combat, you watch for openings in your opponents defense and aim to combine it with high damage burst(in stamDk's case its an ultimate since that is all your burst).

The playstyle atm for the class is pretty much land a d.swing and then leap and hope it gets your enemy low enough for you to start spamming executioner. You don't spam stonefist like a lunatic and take your enemy down with the extra 100 damage or something, as if its a raid boss or something. That is not how PvP works, unless you enjoy chasing single players with a group of 40 you will find stonefist lacking in performance.

Ragnarock41 · February 2020

Xvorg wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Altyrann wrote: »

ElvenVeil wrote: »

MellowMagic wrote: »

the damage is lower because it is ranged, I'd rather it hit harder and be melee range

don't think that is an actual thing in eso.. if you look at how various skills scale, there is nothing that indicates that ranged skills do less damage than melee. more the opposite if anything

I've not seen anything suggesting it is lower as a result of being ranged.

Ranged abilities always have less damage and sometimes cost more. For example concealed weapon vs swallow soul - concealed is cheaper and deals more damage. Of course it is ZO$ and we have exceptions like elemental weapon...
Also DK has passive - 7m range of melee abilities. It is really big difference in practice... so 7m melee spammable stamina ability can be a real signature (like whip is). Anyways ZOS could leave ranged stonefist for PVE with few tweaks (and removed cast time), and grant flame lash morphs same treatment as soul trap - i.e. if stamina is higher deals and scales with poison damage, if magicka is higher - deals and scales with fire damage.

just give up. ZoS wants something "creative" over useful, even if that means making the skill non-viable

Its not creative either unfortunately. I value creativity and risky/unique things. This is neither.