Looking for dungeon DLC vet HM builds, all I find is trials, trials, trials

Faulgor · January 2020

I get it, trials are considered the benchmark for endgame.
But when I want to tackle DLC vet dungeons, these builds often don't really seem applicable.

Boss fights are much shorter, diminishing the importance of executes/Bloodthirsty. Amount of group support and available buffs is much, much lower, especially things like Warhorn uptime, which calls into question how effective a focus on crit (e.g. Mother's Sorrow) is here. Single-target fights are usually the exception, which makes some meta-sets like Relequen less useful. Healers aren't really that important, but how to best build for self-heal or off-heal as a DD/tank? And how flexible do you have to be when running in PUGs?

Suffice it to say, the challenges are a bit different. And while most trial players probably breeze through vet dungeons anyhow, I'd really like to have some resources on builds and setups especially made for that content - including group compositions of 3 DDs.

Does anyone have some pointers, or builds they'd like to share?

Alienoutlaw · January 2020

i highly recommend Xynode
Here

mocap · January 2020

Alcast's tank and healer builds mostly for trials, yes. DD builds viable for dungeons, but mostly in static group.
Just play more and eventually you will make your own dungeon build.

Also, for self-sustain, self-buffs, self-whatever you may want to look at any vMA build. Those are super viable in any dungeons with any group.

zvavi · January 2020

When you are running with pugs? U need to get ready to have *** healer, *** tank, and excuse me for language, the only dd.

Ok tbh,
mag dd: depends of there is real heal or not, but pfg+ms is "good enough", tbh i am grundwolf sucker lately, with a real heal (drain+orbs+symphony) you should be able to eat as much resources as you need to actually deal damage, while without it u gonna be dry unless Breton.
Stam dd:really depends on boss, but cant go wrong with new moon+lokke if there is a real heal, if there are no synergizes vo can be instead of lokke, and rare occasions rele.
Heal: tbh go in with 2 dmg sets, and heavy attack build. Orbs (dmg ones), drain, symphony, 1 aoe hot, 1 burst heal, and a dot rotation with heavy attacks. Ez heal with good dmg.
Tank: i always assume there is no real heal as a tank, so i usually run heal orbs, drain, and whatever sets i want. But as a rule, slot blood altar and run symphony. Dds will love you. The sets, doesnt matter as much. If u get enough synergies the i guess u could go alkosh+yol, but eh, in small groups the difference is minor, might as well run some weird heavy dmg set :shrug:

Edit: tbh more options would be iceheart for dds (if u cant survive without, stam can wear too), thurvokun for tank (in case real heal and dds are swimming in resources), symphony in group is a must though, you usually dont have master resto, hollowfang, etc etc in dungeons, and symphony is stronger in smaller groups. I mean 14k resources every 18 seconds, amazing. Cant say no. If both dds are mag heal could also run hollowfang.

IneedaDollar · February 2020

Different bossfight need different skills and sustain.
If you are looking for an optimized dungeon group your goal would be to play 1 Tank 3 DDs and swap your build in different situations.
A build should always respect the needs of your group and be adjusted if needed.
As a DD my recommendation would be to carry 3 setups in general:
1 for trashmobs which is basically the same as for trials
1 for bossfights with over 5 million health and/or damage stops
that is basically a normal build but with maybe one or two extra sustain options
and finally
1 burst setup with stuff like acuity, warmachine or fully stacked balorgh.
If you combine these with a necromancer ult and warhorn most bosses with 3 million health can be bursted in less than 10secs if you execute it right.
This is because your damage in the first few seconds of the fight gets buffed into oblivion
which is what you want to skip bossmechanics.
Keep in mind these strat doesnt work on every boss.

thadjarvis · February 2020

Dungeons simply vary with what is best. There aren't any hard and fast rules. If optimal is the goal, it changes with group and content.

Stam:

Lokk is usually simply the best when in a group with reliable synergies
Relequen: this can work if able to maintain burn; can be useful to burn through mechanics on a few bosses but generally not ideal in dungeons
VO: long AOE encounters with many adds/trash; also solid source of Slayer if not using Lokk/Relequen
Two-Fang: tank not running Alkosh, no PoTL, and not using Lover
Tzgovin: extra skill slot
DSA 2h weapon instead of monster: AOE focus (IMO often good for one DD to build into AOE heavily for many encounters)
War Machine: great for 3 DPS low synergy groups; Slayer set
Savaging Demise: if not source of minor vuln in group
OL, Craft, Dung sets that work (some work better on sub-set of classes): NMA, Hund, Brair, Auto, Levi, Azure, AY, Deadly

My preference to keep set options lower is to use an OL set pairing it with any of the slayer sets depending on group/content. Eg my Stamplar setup: Deadly Strike, Lover, Kragh one piece with:
Lokk usually, Rele for burn strat, WM sometimes for 3 DPS, Auto or Leviathan otherwise. VO is not really needed on stamplar with repent but may be better than Auto or Leviathan due to slayer (needs testing).

Skills to Consider: Bloodcraze, Bloodthirst, Brawler, Major Evasion source, Camo Hunter

Mag:
5 piece sets

(perfect) False God typically just outshines all else
Master Architect: without Lokk allies this can be great. Many HM's are going through mechs with short periods in which you want as much DPS as possible. If you can sustain without FG, it's a great option.
Mother Sorrow is still good but note Warhorn uptime may not be high as may run 3 DPS or supports may use more defensive ultimates when learning HM's
Other sets to consider instead of MS: BSW, Succession, Scathing, Necro, NMA

Weapons

MA staff still best bet backbar
AS: possibility; been testing and not sure. Burning, Concussed, and Chilled are all valuable.
BRP: tried it...underwhelming
DSA: haven't tried it extensively yet, but have heard that the lightning staff can pump out some serious AOE
Primsmatic enchant if enemies meet conditions
Shock enchant could benefit some groups

Staff Type

Fire/Fire still works great but if you enjoy optimizing and swapping things around lightning can be useful; think of lightning as we think of 2h DSA
Lightning staff (MA) backbar if burning is very low (no Asylum, Ele Weapon, or only mag in group) and engulfing is not used may be best bet as backbar skills are typially AOE skills: Wall, Class AOE DoT, Mystic Orb...
Lightning Front bar when going full AOE using Impulse morph as spam skill (having one DD go full AOE is often good IMO for many encounters and trash)
Fire Front bar always if using Force Pulse as it is a ST ability even though it cleaves

3 DPS Tanking
noting bias: most of the time I take my Warden but have been using NB/Necro more for these:

IMO Olorime is simply fantastic for this: minor aegies, mag recovery for healing/utility, plus it empowers your non-health based HoT/Heal which I often use at least one for DDs when no healer is in the group. Best to slot a Ranged Ground targeting ability to drop it on DDs heads as they may not be able to get to Wall or Blood Altar procs easily. Eg Budding Seeds is a perfect skill for this as it includes a Lokk proc and procs Warden sustain passive.
If using Olo it can be backbar. Thus you can use any of the Arena SnB's front bar. Take a look at them and see what you like. I like MA or DSA most cases. Pretty much only time you can get anything out of these sets.
Ebon is my default choice to pair
Alkosh obviously always a good option. Though I don't use it much as synergies can be sparse as I run with a lot of stam. II find often that many of the important burns are away from the boss anyway. Olo imo is just more beneficial all around but I could be wrong.
Dragon or Tava can be real nice. I like dragon on my Necro and potion cooldown NB as their ulti gen is really high. Either is also quite nice for DK's due to the self-sustain benefit.
Claw + Ebon is pretty nice to simply have a ton a stats and still provide group buffs
A lot use healing proc sets but I can't really comment as I've rarely used them in hard content

Some references
Alcast AOE builds can give some ideas
vMA builds
J-Dubs 2-man hard mode builds
vBRP builds

MudcrabAttack · February 2020

Thanks to ESO logs I was able to find out that a vast majority of the time, even with trials guild tanks and healers in the party, I'm hardly ever overpenetrating if I use a Sharpened two hand weapon in 4 player dungeons. Minor Berserk has 3x or more uptime if I slot Camouflauge Hunter. I don't run with the best of the best leaderboard types. Oftentimes there isn't a perfect pile of mobs to execute with AOE damage all at once, there's usually a straggler mob piddling around in the distance. There usually aren't a lot of orbs or shards to choose from. So this is my build that always gets me through vet DLC 4 player content rather quickly.

https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=200985

Front bar: Sharpened Tzogvin bow w/ poison enchantment

Front skills: Acid Spray, Lethal Arrow, Camouflauge Hunter, two class damage skills, Flawless Dawnbreaker or Class Ult

Back Bar: Infused VMA bow w/ berserker

Back bar skills: Endless hail, Vigor, Class DOT, Protective class skill, Skill that provides major brutality (when I want to use cheap potions), Ballista or Class Ult

Straggler mobs standing far away in dungeons are easy to target at the same time as everything else thanks to Acid Spray's 20 meter cone range, or use snipe if there aren't any other targets to hit. Running all the way to the mob and back again is for the birds.

With Tzogvin you're free to slot something else in place of barbed trap, like something defensive. And even if you wanted minor force from barbed trap it won't be a consistent buff coming from that skill alone. With Tzogvin there's usually 2/3 uptime of minor force from the moment I step into a dungeon to the finish, and this frees up a GCD to focus AOE trash down more quickly by casting one more AOE skill in place of barbed trap.

Vicious Ophedian with infused jewelry is my go-to, sometimes I swap it for relequen w/ bloodthirsty for a boss that doesn't vanish at times, or redirect focus for longer than 5 seconds..

Stormfist for reliable targeting and best range since this is a bow build, and the extra Regen helps when orbs are few and far between.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · February 2020

How to make a Vet Dungeon Build.

Option 1: Start with a Vet Trial Build. Congrats, you are done.

Option 2: Start with a Vet Trial Build. Make sure you have room for a shield/heal. If you know your healer is going to be questionable (or maybe it's just a 3rd DPS), give priority to any damage skills that also act as a self heal. Executes and skills you slot just for the buffs are generally a good place to start when looking for skills to remove. Consider 1 or 2 health glyphs on your big pieces of armor, consider 1 or 2 regen glyphs on your jewelry, and perhaps seek some more utility from your Monster set. That is really it. The notion that you need a wildly different build for each is simply false. The only other thing to consider, perhaps goes against what I said earlier, you might want to look to passive skills that give Major Sorcery/Prophecy (savagery and brutality for stam), so you can save money on your potion bill whilst pugging 4 man content.

thadjarvis · February 2020

@Oreyn_Bearclaw
Indeed you don't have to, but many players like to build for what they play most or just like building builds. Some focus on 4 player instances more than trials. For things like dungeon challenges, trifectas, and vBRP (including unchained attempts) you could use a trial build + heal slotted, but there are more efficient ways to do it. Particularly 3 DPS in which only a subset of trial build presumed support buffs/debuffs are present.

code65536 · February 2020

Just be flexible and use what makes sense.

I think the first fallacy here is that there is a singular "trials build". There isn't. Each fight is different. To give an extreme example, you would not use the same gear and skill loadout for vAS as you would for Valariel in vAA.

Or look at vHoF, for example...

Boss 1: If you're doing a burn strat, then use what you'd typically use for parsing on a target dummy. So if you're a magicka DD, you might put on Zaan here. If you're stamina, you'd use Relequen. But if you're not using the burn strat (e.g., you're on console and don't have a reliable way to dodge taking aims), then the amount of movement, repositioning and target switching would make both of these setups poor choices.
Boss 2: Magicka DDs might find something like Grundwulf to be more useful, to counteract all the magicka drain mechanics and because getting in melee range for something like Zaan isn't always practical. And if you're going "topside", you need a self-heal.
Boss 3: This is an entirely different fight. All about burst damage. Relequen doesn't make sense here. Balorgh is the preferred monster set. You even play differently; e.g., if your DoTs run out, you don't reapply them.
Boss 4: Yet another different fight. Don't use Relequen if you're stam. You probably won't get good Combat Prayer uptime since there's so much movement during bomber phases, so you might consider Slimecraw or Camo Hunter. Some stam prefer using a 2-hander here for the shield from Brawler. Some stam prefer dual-wield for a ranged cleaving spammable in Shrouded Daggers. Which of these two you use will depend a lot on your group and even personal preference.
Boss 5: If you're melee, unless you're really, really experienced, you probably don't want to use any channeled abilities like Biting Jabs or Rapid Strikes. For some people, this might mean changing their build for this fight.

My point is, your gear and your skills and even how you fight changes depending on what you're fighting. So yea, you're right, some things that would make sense when you're hacking away at a target dummy wouldn't make sense in a dungeon. But the same could be said for a lot of trials bosses as well. If you take a target dummy build into vAS, then you're doing it wrong.

Think about what the gear does, what your abilities do, and then think about how whether those things make sense for the upcoming fight. And if it doesn't, then adapt. ZOS has done a relatively good job of balancing things such that there is never a "one build to rule them all" and that the best setup is something that can change from boss to boss.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · February 2020

thadjarvis wrote: »

@Oreyn_Bearclaw
Indeed you don't have to, but many players like to build for what they play most or just like building builds. Some focus on 4 player instances more than trials. For things like dungeon challenges, trifectas, and vBRP (including unchained attempts) you could use a trial build + heal slotted, but there are more efficient ways to do it. Particularly 3 DPS in which only a subset of trial build presumed support buffs/debuffs are present.

Of course, you always need to be flexible, especially if going for a specific achievement. That said, a solid trial build is typically a pretty good place to start. End of the day, the best way to get just about any dungeon achievement in this game is with overwhelming DPS.

Now of course, I am generally going to advise decreasing your overall squishiness and being self reliant in terms of resources in 4-man stuff, but that is pretty much what I said in option two. There might also be arguments for specific utility skills in certain instances. For example, you might want a DPS with a ranged interrupt. However, the idea that you should drastically deviate from a trial build in 4 man content is bad advice more times than not.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · February 2020

code65536 wrote: »

Just be flexible and use what makes sense.

I think the first fallacy here is that there is a singular "trials build". There isn't. Each fight is different. To give an extreme example, you would not use the same gear and skill loadout for vAS as you would for Valariel in vAA.

Or look at vHoF, for example...
Boss 1: If you're doing a burn strat, then use what you'd typically use for parsing on a target dummy. So if you're a magicka DD, you might put on Zaan here. If you're stamina, you'd use Relequen. But if you're not using the burn strat (e.g., you're on console and don't have a reliable way to dodge taking aims), then the amount of movement, repositioning and target switching would make both of these setups poor choices.

Boss 2: Magicka DDs might find something like Grundwulf to be more useful, to counteract all the magicka drain mechanics and because getting in melee range for something like Zaan isn't always practical. And if you're going "topside", you need a self-heal.

Boss 3: This is an entirely different fight. All about burst damage. Relequen doesn't make sense here. Balorgh is the preferred monster set. You even play differently; e.g., if your DoTs run out, you don't reapply them.

Boss 4: Yet another different fight. Don't use Relequen if you're stam. You probably won't get good Combat Prayer uptime since there's so much movement during bomber phases, so you might consider Slimecraw or Camo Hunter. Some stam prefer using a 2-hander here for the shield from Brawler. Some stam prefer dual-wield for a ranged cleaving spammable in Shrouded Daggers. Which of these two you use will depend a lot on your group and even personal preference.

Boss 5: If you're melee, unless you're really, really experienced, you probably don't want to use any channeled abilities like Biting Jabs or Rapid Strikes. For some people, this might mean changing their build for this fight.

My point is, your gear and your skills and even how you fight changes depending on what you're fighting. So yea, you're right, some things that would make sense when you're hacking away at a target dummy wouldn't make sense in a dungeon. But the same could be said for a lot of trials bosses as well. If you take a target dummy build into vAS, then you're doing it wrong.

Think about what the gear does, what your abilities do, and then think about how whether those things make sense for the upcoming fight. And if it doesn't, then adapt. ZOS has done a relatively good job of balancing things such that there is never a "one build to rule them all" and that the best setup is something that can change from boss to boss.

@code65536
Good points as always. To take it one step further, even in the same fight, an appropriate trial build for one group might not fly in another.

I think the best way to think about it is to substitute "trial" build for "dummy" build. Every patch, we have someone like Liko or similar that is going to demonstrate how to dish out the most DPS for that particular patch for a certain spec. Perhaps it's inappropriate to call that a trial build. It's probably missing a shield, and decent chances are that if you get into trouble, your resources will struggle. It still makes sense, at least IMO, to start there for the basic framework. Of course, adjust where necessary, but typically, you don't want reinvent the wheel.

thadjarvis · February 2020

@Oreyn_Bearclaw
Agree with option 1 & 2 after re-reading entirely. Didn't intend tone quick typing on phone earlier. It's exactly what I do on a DD. Maybe 1 to 3 skills change (camo hunter, heal/shield usually), relequen/siroria often gets replaced, bloodthirsty/infused varied by encounter, and Lover if I care to go change it.

@Faulgor
With your acknowledgement of BT/Infused and Warhorn's effect on MS you have the knowledge already to figure it out.