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Crystal frags and mages wrath need to be sped up
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TheFM✭✭✭✭✭
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If you think the delay on Frags is bad, I invite you to try the currently live version of Blastbones. It isn't all that uncommon to be forced to wait 8 seconds between casts, because the skeleton got confused, stuck on terrain, CC'd, etc...Anotherone773 wrote: »Frags is fine, I threw one at an Altmer and he died of old age before it landed. Sometimes ill throw run and then sprint up to the target and see if i can kill them before it lands.In PVP the other person goes through their rotation twice before it lands.
Frags use to be good now they are meh for pretty much everything.
To rip off a cliched analogy: the Mag Sorc class is sort of like pizza...even when it's bad, it's still good. Magicka Sorcerers have spent most patches being amongst the top few classes, and with the current state of the game, I don't think they need any buffs at all. If there are some "pain points" that need to be addressed, fine, but there would probably have to be some other adjustments made to offset those things.
I have tried it, I was trying to make oty main in fact
However it was just too broken. The speed up is more than warranted, however, if they are going to speed the ability up to make it more reliable then frags , a very comparable skill should move just as quick. Same with flare from templars.0 -
Qbiken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭If you can find ways to buff magsorc without making them even more potent in Xv1 scenarios then I´m all for it, but your suggestions just makes magsorc even more potent in Xv1 situations than they already are.Edited by Qbiken on February 3, 2020 12:51PM0 -
TheFM✭✭✭✭✭
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Yes, you can potentially end up casting many times in a row without getting a Crystal Frag proc. But you can also get several procs back-to-back.
Also in what world does frags hit harder than an ulti?
just put together a fairly random setup to compare tooltips.
frags baseline here is 10989 damage. add the 33% damage boost to it and you have 14650 ~ tooltip.
obviously depending on how much of a dot you choose to eat or not heal up against, situations will change. but looking at the burst capability, which pvp is frankly all about these days, frags are looking very solid.
so with the same setup
frags 14650
meteor - 14200
2h ult: 14680
soul harvest: 12992
sweeps: 8387
take flight: 17053
I think frags is actually competing surprisingly well. So relating it back to your other posts of how cast times promote good pvp makes sense. If you up the speed of frags, the time we have to react will go down and for the sake of staying just a bit consistent across threads, I dont think increasing cast speed is in line with good reactive pvp that you otherwise like to see in this game, when the damage from that skill is actually surprisingly good
That 33 percent increase comes from an rng chance, it's very possible you can do 20 magicka abilities in a row and not get a single proc, so a .3 second reduction in travel speed would not make it op, it would make it on par with other hard hitting channeled abilities.
Yes, really. Since I started playing some again a couple days ago, Mag Sorcs and Stam Templars have probably been the 2 most common classes I've seen in BGs. And your frustration with Magicka Warden cuts the other direction too, by the way. If you're halfway paying attention, the Warden's Shalks will rarely-if-ever actually land (which means that they can't kill you unless you make huge mistakes), and you can disengage from that player at will - but they can't escape you unless you let them.Mag Sorc burst absolutely 100% does not need to be buffed for PvP (at least in no-CP). There are reasons that they're everywhere, and the burst + execute being outstanding is a big part of that. If the projectile gets sped up, there would need to be a reduction in damage, proc frequency, or some other form of nerfage.
Really? All I see is tons of wardens, stamcros, and templars. Nightblades and sorcs however are a rarity now. Wardens can actually completely negate everything a mag sorc throws at them. Auto purge of wrath and curse, and absorb super slow frags and unreliable light attacks. Yes sorc was op in the past, but by no means is it anywhere near the absurdity that wardens, templars and stamcros are atm.
Wardens can completely negate a sorcs entire kit. With 0 effort. With the auto purge no cost netch, and frost shield, it becomes a case of futility trying to do even a moderate amount of damage to them.
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TheFM✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭If you can find ways to buff magsorc without making them even more potent in Xv1 scenarios then I´m all for it, but your suggestions just makes magsorc even more potent in Xv1 situations than they already are.
5 percent damage decrease for a .2-.3 second reduction in travel time.Edited by TheFM on February 3, 2020 12:54PM0 -
killingspreeb16_ESO✭✭✭✭
Yet ultimate need a cast time so you can react?
If is not a big deal then how come you think this small delay is such a big problem?
Sorc main are something else,really.1 -
BalticBlues✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭The OP is right.
Even Heavy Tanks are rolling faster than these spells...
Edited by BalticBlues on February 3, 2020 1:06PM1 -
TheFM✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »
Yet ultimate need a cast time so you can react?
If is not a big deal then how come you think this small delay is such a big problem?
Sorc main are something else,really.
Im Not complaining about the cast the, the cast time is fine if you hard cast, I'm talking about the travel time, stay on topic. When your instant ultis have a cast time and near one second travel time you can come back.0 -
TheFM✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭BalticBlues wrote: »The OP is right.
Even Heavy Tanks are rolling faster than these spells...
The blind hatred for sorcs is just astonishing, absolutely no objectivity what so ever. Our main DD ulti is broken, we have the longest travel time for our ranged abilities as arranged class, even in melee range it has a .8 second travel time, which is absurd, our execute is the weakest and requires them to be under 20 percent health, which is lower than all other executes, and it is coupled with a ludicrous travel time. There is no objectivity what so ever.3 -
killingspreeb16_ESO✭✭✭✭killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »
Yet ultimate need a cast time so you can react?
If is not a big deal then how come you think this small delay is such a big problem?
Sorc main are something else,really.
Im Not complaining about the cast the, the cast time is fine if you hard cast, I'm talking about the travel time, stay on topic. When your instant ultis have a cast time and near one second travel time you can come back.
i know what are you saying,but is the same.
You said cast time on ult are fine because let you react in time,the same can be said about crystal frag(or Nb bow) they have a delay because they hit hard like an ultimate(or even more got hit yesterday on no cp with a 8.3k frag so) even though they are just normal skill,so people have time to react.
The change was made with the same thing in mind,let more people be able to react.
If you think one is fine then you can't ask for your class skill to be an exception.
You are also lucky that frag don't have that obvious sound like the Nb bow,where you can hear it from the other side of cyrodiil.
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TheFM✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »
Yet ultimate need a cast time so you can react?
If is not a big deal then how come you think this small delay is such a big problem?
Sorc main are something else,really.
Im Not complaining about the cast the, the cast time is fine if you hard cast, I'm talking about the travel time, stay on topic. When your instant ultis have a cast time and near one second travel time you can come back.
i know what are you saying,but is the same.
You said cast time on ult are fine because let you react in time,the same can be said about crystal frag(or Nb bow) they have a delay because they hit hard like an ultimate(or even more got hit yesterday on no cp with a 8.3k frag so) even though they are just normal skill,so people have time to react.
The change was made with the same thing in mind,let more people be able to react.
If you think one is fine then you can't ask for your class skill to be an exception.
You are also lucky that frag don't have that obvious sound like the Nb bow,where you can hear it from the other side of cyrodiil.
It isn't the same thing at all, and I'm not going to argue about cast times because it is completely off topic. I am asking for fair is fair, with even being ok with a small damage nerf compensate. If other similarly hard hitting abilities get made more reliable, it should be for all similar skills, not for all but sorcs.Edited by TheFM on February 3, 2020 1:58PM0 -
killingspreeb16_ESO✭✭✭✭killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »
Yet ultimate need a cast time so you can react?
If is not a big deal then how come you think this small delay is such a big problem?
Sorc main are something else,really.
Im Not complaining about the cast the, the cast time is fine if you hard cast, I'm talking about the travel time, stay on topic. When your instant ultis have a cast time and near one second travel time you can come back.
i know what are you saying,but is the same.
You said cast time on ult are fine because let you react in time,the same can be said about crystal frag(or Nb bow) they have a delay because they hit hard like an ultimate(or even more got hit yesterday on no cp with a 8.3k frag so) even though they are just normal skill,so people have time to react.
The change was made with the same thing in mind,let more people be able to react.
If you think one is fine then you can't ask for your class skill to be an exception.
You are also lucky that frag don't have that obvious sound like the Nb bow,where you can hear it from the other side of cyrodiil.
It isn't the same thing at all, and I'm not going to argue about cast times because it is completely off topic.
Then no point to even make a thread if you can't accept a different answer than the one you want to hear.Edited by killingspreeb16_ESO on February 3, 2020 1:58PM1 -
TheFM✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »
Yet ultimate need a cast time so you can react?
If is not a big deal then how come you think this small delay is such a big problem?
Sorc main are something else,really.
Im Not complaining about the cast the, the cast time is fine if you hard cast, I'm talking about the travel time, stay on topic. When your instant ultis have a cast time and near one second travel time you can come back.
i know what are you saying,but is the same.
You said cast time on ult are fine because let you react in time,the same can be said about crystal frag(or Nb bow) they have a delay because they hit hard like an ultimate(or even more got hit yesterday on no cp with a 8.3k frag so) even though they are just normal skill,so people have time to react.
The change was made with the same thing in mind,let more people be able to react.
If you think one is fine then you can't ask for your class skill to be an exception.
You are also lucky that frag don't have that obvious sound like the Nb bow,where you can hear it from the other side of cyrodiil.
It isn't the same thing at all, and I'm not going to argue about cast times because it is completely off topic.
Then no point to even make a thread if you can't accept a different answer than the one you want to hear.
The thread is about travel times of abilities that already have a cast time, stay on topic please.0 -
TheFM✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ThePhantomThorn wrote: »Sure ok. Then remove cast times on ults and increase spectral bow speed
Again, cast time is fine, travel time is not. Stay on topic.0 -
killingspreeb16_ESO✭✭✭✭ThePhantomThorn wrote: »Sure ok. Then remove cast times on ults and increase spectral bow speed
Again, cast time is fine, travel time is not. Stay on topic.
[snip]
Both(cast time on ultimate and delay on frag/bow)have been added to the game with the same argument,they want people to be able to react to powerfull spell.
Frag and NB bow deal the same damage if not more than an ultimate reason why they got a travel time,in Nb case even a loud sound.
So again if you think Cast time on ult are fine then why you make a thread about the delay of crystal frag?it's fine if you can react to other class strong skill but is not when people can react to your main class skill?
Not to mention frags can get 3-4 proc back to back,unlike ultimate or NB bow.
Also if they remove delay from frag both damage and proc rate need to be nerfed.
and lastly no one talk about the cast time of frag,people(or in my case atleast)we are pointing out that you keep defending the cast time on ultimate in other threads because reason,while at the same time want to reduce the counterplay to one of the hardest hitting skill in the game.(and as sorc you can land it whithout many problem thanks to streak)
Minor edit for bait.Edited by ZOS_GregoryV on February 3, 2020 6:41PM2 -
ElvenVeil✭✭✭BalticBlues wrote: »The OP is right.
Even Heavy Tanks are rolling faster than these spells...
The blind hatred for sorcs is just astonishing, absolutely no objectivity what so ever. Our main DD ulti is broken, we have the longest travel time for our ranged abilities as arranged class, even in melee range it has a .8 second travel time, which is absurd, our execute is the weakest and requires them to be under 20 percent health, which is lower than all other executes, and it is coupled with a ludicrous travel time. There is no objectivity what so ever.
I am not sure exactly what responses you are expecting tbh. You spam the threads regarding classes you clearly don't play, calling for nerfs and how good slowed down gameplay is. When it comes to stuff you do play, slow gameplay is terrible and needs to be fixed asap. When your attention is brought to that extreme level biased behavior, you brush it off as not staying on topic. When presented with frags overpowering damage you choose to safely ignore it, saying that it could easily happen that you cast 20 skills without proccing frags. let me do the math for you. The chance for not getting a frag in 20 casts, that can 'very possibly' happen, is 0.65^20=0.00181 . in other words you are 99.98% certain of getting a frag in that period. even with just a 5 skills cast you have an 88% chance of having a frag ready for your burst. So you basically just state stuff that is either contradictory to your other opinions, or is just bordering nonsense.
I think you would achieve much better feedback if you had consistency that went beyond 'buff my class, nerf other's'4 -
ku5h✭✭✭✭✭
✭killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »ThePhantomThorn wrote: »Sure ok. Then remove cast times on ults and increase spectral bow speed
Again, cast time is fine, travel time is not. Stay on topic.
Frag and NB bow deal the same damage
No, they don't.
Don't just spit nonsense to make an argument.
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TheFM✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭BalticBlues wrote: »The OP is right.
Even Heavy Tanks are rolling faster than these spells...
The blind hatred for sorcs is just astonishing, absolutely no objectivity what so ever. Our main DD ulti is broken, we have the longest travel time for our ranged abilities as arranged class, even in melee range it has a .8 second travel time, which is absurd, our execute is the weakest and requires them to be under 20 percent health, which is lower than all other executes, and it is coupled with a ludicrous travel time. There is no objectivity what so ever.
I am not sure exactly what responses you are expecting tbh. You spam the threads regarding classes you clearly don't play, calling for nerfs and how good slowed down gameplay is. When it comes to stuff you do play, slow gameplay is terrible and needs to be fixed asap. When your attention is brought to that extreme level biased behavior, you brush it off as not staying on topic. When presented with frags overpowering damage you choose to safely ignore it, saying that it could easily happen that you cast 20 skills without proccing frags. let me do the math for you. The chance for not getting a frag in 20 casts, that can 'very possibly' happen, is 0.65^20=0.00181 . in other words you are 99.98% certain of getting a frag in that period. even with just a 5 skills cast you have an 88% chance of having a frag ready for your burst. So you basically just state stuff that is either contradictory to your other opinions, or is just bordering nonsense.
I think you would achieve much better feedback if you had consistency that went beyond 'buff my class, nerf other's'
I actually have a toon on all classes, and have a whole ONE thread asking about the netch and its auto purge, which has resulted in a hail of insults, and personal attacks. I suggest learning how to have a civil conversation, otherwise i will just report every single response that has said attacks in them.
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Rahar✭✭✭✭As an mSorc main, I don't really agree that our hardest hitting abilities need to be sped up. However, no projectile in this game should have a completely arbitrary minimum travel time at point blank over ~100-150ms. If we're up close and taking all of your damage instantly, we should get ours near-instantly as well.
This point is proven by how NB's bow proc was and still kind of is. It used to have a 400ms? or so minimum flight time and was blocked or dodged rolled an excessive amount of times, even at melee range. It was not functional.
That reminds me: there was actually another post on this topic here, which the kind @BohnT2 has provided evidence of the delay on Frags:
This shows the Delay still being more than 250ms even when standing inside the target skeleton.
Screenshot is german short but should be easy to understand.
So in the sense that point-blank, no projectiles should have a delay of 250ms+, I'd agree. But don't speed anything up at range, because that's where we already excel.NeRf MaGsOrC0 -
CynicK✭✭✭And something that deserves a thread on its own the warden dive I mean it is not that it is just too slow, that they say it is because it has to be dodgeable but it seems that you can sit and wait for the other player to dodge it, and when using it, it usually results in many dodges like 3 dives I counted yesterday with a single roll dodge it seems that if any time during the flight the player has been in a roll dodge it is dodged and then that when you cast it, one time you hit one guy you immediately click again aiming at the same guy and you hit another guy nearby i just use it for the extra healing i get but that skill works terrible and it costs a absurd quantity of stamina too for the damage it does, with the bleeding now it is passable but every time i use it i think why i do not dump it and i remember why i dumped it long time ago.
Well to clarify, if the player was in a roll when you casted it when it gets to the destination half an hour later and the player is no longer rolling it is dodged too and with the stamina it costs is a little bit annoying to lose 3 casts of it for a single roll i guess it happens with everything but that is the slowest skill i use.
And grim focus is also terribly slow and i never distinguish the projectile with all the mess in the fights so i guess it could move faster because dodging it seems difficult.0 -
killingspreeb16_ESO✭✭✭✭As an mSorc main, I don't really agree that our hardest hitting abilities need to be sped up. However, no projectile in this game should have a completely arbitrary minimum travel time at point blank over ~100-150ms. If we're up close and taking all of your damage instantly, we should get ours near-instantly as well.
This point is proven by how NB's bow proc was and still kind of is. It used to have a 400ms? or so minimum flight time and was blocked or dodged rolled an excessive amount of times, even at melee range. It was not functional.
That reminds me: there was actually another post on this topic here, which the kind @BohnT2 has provided evidence of the delay on Frags:
This shows the Delay still being more than 250ms even when standing inside the target skeleton.
Screenshot is german short but should be easy to understand.
So in the sense that point-blank, no projectiles should have a delay of 250ms+, I'd agree. But don't speed anything up at range, because that's where we already excel.
Merciless/relentless still have a delay aswell but i think it's fine maybe we can make it a bit fast but unlike other skill that hit istant,those 2 skill (both frag and Bow)hit like a truck and making them istant even if in just melee range would result in a nerf thread's for both class.
And sorc don't have the loud sound the Nb bow got,yesterday with the music on i was to heard Nb firing merciless at me from range and dodge it no problem.Edited by killingspreeb16_ESO on February 3, 2020 6:24PM0 -
Anotherone773✭✭✭✭✭
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If you think the delay on Frags is bad, I invite you to try the currently live version of Blastbones. It isn't all that uncommon to be forced to wait 8 seconds between casts, because the skeleton got confused, stuck on terrain, CC'd, etc...Anotherone773 wrote: »Frags is fine, I threw one at an Altmer and he died of old age before it landed. Sometimes ill throw run and then sprint up to the target and see if i can kill them before it lands.In PVP the other person goes through their rotation twice before it lands.
Frags use to be good now they are meh for pretty much everything.
To rip off a cliched analogy: the Mag Sorc class is sort of like pizza...even when it's bad, it's still good. Magicka Sorcerers have spent most patches being amongst the top few classes, and with the current state of the game, I don't think they need any buffs at all. If there are some "pain points" that need to be addressed, fine, but there would probably have to be some other adjustments made to offset those things.
The problem is most things only need minor tweaks to get much better balance but ZOS makes major changes instead of minor ones and it greatly affects play on every level. If they would make balancing changes every 2 weeks but do more subtle and fewer ones so players could show them the impact of such changes on the game as a whole it would be much better.
Maybe they will start doing that instead of the large knee jerk changes once they shrink the patch size but i doubt it.0