Crystal frags and mages wrath need to be sped up

TheFM

As it stands currently these two abilities are probably the slowest projectiles on the game right up there with templars flare. I noticed necros abilities are getting sped up to be faster than all those abilities, can we please update these travel times then? As is these abilities travel so slow it's laughable.

KillsAllElves

Crystal frag has a cast time and is a ranged ability this is why CF hits hard, Also it has a chance to insta-cast.
Furthermore, the faster the ability casts the less damage it does.

If zos did speed up cast time and or distance travel speed CF would likely get a damage reduction.

TheFM

KillsAllElves wrote: »

Crystal frag has a cast time and is a ranged ability this is why CF hits hard, Also it has a chance to insta-cast.
Furthermore, the faster the ability casts the less damage it does.

If zos did speed up cast time and or distance travel speed CF would likely get a damage reduction.

Im Not talking about the cast time, I'm talking about the travel time, every other heavy hitting ability, except frags, wrath and flare, have had their travel time decrease,there is no reason for these abilities to be left behind like that
Fair is fair.

KillsAllElves

TheFM wrote: »

KillsAllElves wrote: »

Crystal frag has a cast time and is a ranged ability this is why CF hits hard, Also it has a chance to insta-cast.
Furthermore, the faster the ability casts the less damage it does.

If zos did speed up cast time and or distance travel speed CF would likely get a damage reduction.

Im Not talking about the cast time, I'm talking about the travel time, every other heavy hitting ability, except frags, wrath and flare, have had their travel time decrease,there is no reason for these abilities to be left behind like that
Fair is fair.

I mentioned travel speed. Flare recieved a nerf.

If frags got a speed buff than a damage nerf would be likely with how zos works.

ElvenVeil

TheFM wrote: »

As it stands currently these two abilities are probably the slowest projectiles on the game right up there with templars flare. I noticed necros abilities are getting sped up to be faster than all those abilities, can we please update these travel times then? As is these abilities travel so slow it's laughable.

what happened to being able to react to enemy skills being a good thing ? didn't you argue for exactly that in the cast time thread. Frags hit harder than most ults so I think you should be happy that they are not faster

TheFM

ElvenVeil wrote: »

TheFM wrote: »

As it stands currently these two abilities are probably the slowest projectiles on the game right up there with templars flare. I noticed necros abilities are getting sped up to be faster than all those abilities, can we please update these travel times then? As is these abilities travel so slow it's laughable.

what happened to being able to react to enemy skills being a good thing ? didn't you argue for exactly that in the cast time thread. Frags hit harder than most ults so I think you should be happy that they are not faster

See skill cast time, and how I just said it's fine. Stay on topic please, and being condescending and patronising will just result in a report.

Also in what world does frags hit harder than an ulti?

KillsAllElves wrote: »

TheFM wrote: »

KillsAllElves wrote: »

Crystal frag has a cast time and is a ranged ability this is why CF hits hard, Also it has a chance to insta-cast.
Furthermore, the faster the ability casts the less damage it does.

If zos did speed up cast time and or distance travel speed CF would likely get a damage reduction.

Im Not talking about the cast time, I'm talking about the travel time, every other heavy hitting ability, except frags, wrath and flare, have had their travel time decrease,there is no reason for these abilities to be left behind like that
Fair is fair.

I mentioned travel speed. Flare recieved a nerf.

If frags got a speed buff than a damage nerf would be likely with how zos works.

Flare is just as slow as frags atm, and sure give a tiny nerf to the damage if it's sped up by .3 seconds, that's be fine by me, at least it's become reliable. Atm the cast time + rng insta cast and travel time make it beyond frustrating to land, add lag to that and oh girl.

ElvenVeil

TheFM wrote: »

Also in what world does frags hit harder than an ulti?

just put together a fairly random setup to compare tooltips.

frags baseline here is 10989 damage. add the 33% damage boost to it and you have 14650 ~ tooltip.
obviously depending on how much of a dot you choose to eat or not heal up against, situations will change. but looking at the burst capability, which pvp is frankly all about these days, frags are looking very solid.

so with the same setup
frags 14650
meteor - 14200
2h ult: 14680
soul harvest: 12992
sweeps: 8387
take flight: 17053

I think frags is actually competing surprisingly well. So relating it back to your other posts of how cast times promote good pvp makes sense. If you up the speed of frags, the time we have to react will go down and for the sake of staying just a bit consistent across threads, I dont think increasing cast speed is in line with good reactive pvp that you otherwise like to see in this game, when the damage from that skill is actually surprisingly good

wheem_ESO

Mag Sorc burst absolutely 100% does not need to be buffed for PvP (at least in no-CP). There are reasons that they're everywhere, and the burst + execute being outstanding is a big part of that. If the projectile gets sped up, there would need to be a reduction in damage, proc frequency, or some other form of nerfage.

Pdoherty4637_ESO

Crystal frags is honestly fine as it is. There is currently enought time to block or dodge when on the receiving end of a frag, and, if timed correctly and used skillfully by the caster, it will hit a good amount of the time. I agree with mages wrath however, the skill awful to use in PVP. A few patches ago when they adjusted the roll dodge animation timings and ability interactions, it went off the deep end. You cannot effectively use it as an active execute as the both the damage and the proc threshold is lower than other executes (50% for executioner and jesus beam, 25% for impale/killers blade) and it has a horrid interaction with roll dodge, failing to apply long before and after a dodge has completed. There was one patch where they tightened up the timing between the cast and the actual application on the target and it felt great, there was no delay between cast and effect. ZOS reverted that change after making the proc portion of the skill dodgeable again. Now there is an unofficial cast time because the delay between cast and effect is substantial.

This means it is ineffectve as a spammable execute like executioner (which is fine, it is intended as a delayed effect) but also ineffective as a delayed effect because its application easily dodged, somtimes does not apply even when the target has not recently dodged, so it can be difficult to tell if the cast of the execute even applied to the target properly. Its also worth mentioning that very few people use the execute in PVE as it can be a DPS loss. In my opinion, the cast should do no damage, and the proc threshold should perhaps be moved up to 25% health and the damage of the proc should be increased. As it stands, the small chip damage from the cast does little to nothing, and even when the ability does apply successfully, the proc damage is low enough that the target will not die from the cast, and since it is ineffective as a spammable execute, the target will dodge further executes, recover and heal up, rendering the execute useless when a target is in execute range.

Two additional pain points: endless fury's effect is excellent, returning almost 5K magick when a target dies, but mages wrath's morph effect is very weak; doubling the already very low aoe portion of the skill really has almost no use-case in pvp or pve, compare the aoe damage it causes to reverse slice to see why. Also people complain about kill stealing in PVP battlegrounds, well an easy solution here would be to implement a 1s "arming" timer to the skill to not allow it to proc untill it has been armed on the target, thus encouraging the caster to use the skill early in the fight, as intended, and discouraging spamming the skill to "steal kills".

TL:DR Mages Wrath might steal kills and have a lot of hate directed at it, but in combat it is clunky, frustrating to use, and frequently ineffective.

usmcjdking

TheFM wrote: »

As it stands currently these two abilities are probably the slowest projectiles on the game right up there with templars flare. I noticed necros abilities are getting sped up to be faster than all those abilities, can we please update these travel times then? As is these abilities travel so slow it's laughable.

Instant travel time crystal frags?

You do realize that asking that is about as ridiculous as asking for a 24m instant cast dswing, right?

oxygen_thief

KillsAllElves wrote: »

Crystal frag has a cast time and is a ranged ability this is why CF hits hard

If zos did speed up cast time and or distance travel speed CF would likely get a damage reduction.

thats why no one uses it except some newbies in below 50 bgs

Fur_like_snow

I’ve seen frag hit as hard as my DB and you wanna speed up the travel time? Lmao no thanks.

TheFM

ElvenVeil wrote: »

TheFM wrote: »

Also in what world does frags hit harder than an ulti?

just put together a fairly random setup to compare tooltips.

frags baseline here is 10989 damage. add the 33% damage boost to it and you have 14650 ~ tooltip.
obviously depending on how much of a dot you choose to eat or not heal up against, situations will change. but looking at the burst capability, which pvp is frankly all about these days, frags are looking very solid.

so with the same setup
frags 14650
meteor - 14200
2h ult: 14680
soul harvest: 12992
sweeps: 8387
take flight: 17053

I think frags is actually competing surprisingly well. So relating it back to your other posts of how cast times promote good pvp makes sense. If you up the speed of frags, the time we have to react will go down and for the sake of staying just a bit consistent across threads, I dont think increasing cast speed is in line with good reactive pvp that you otherwise like to see in this game, when the damage from that skill is actually surprisingly good

That 33 percent increase comes from an rng chance, it's very possible you can do 20 magicka abilities in a row and not get a single proc, so a .3 second reduction in travel speed would not make it op, it would make it on par with other hard hitting channeled abilities.

TheFM

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Mag Sorc burst absolutely 100% does not need to be buffed for PvP (at least in no-CP). There are reasons that they're everywhere, and the burst + execute being outstanding is a big part of that. If the projectile gets sped up, there would need to be a reduction in damage, proc frequency, or some other form of nerfage.

The burst is absurdly slow, and wrath is so slow it doesn't even register at times.

TheFM

Pdoherty4637_ESO wrote: »

Crystal frags is honestly fine as it is. There is currently enought time to block or dodge when on the receiving end of a frag, and, if timed correctly and used skillfully by the caster, it will hit a good amount of the time. I agree with mages wrath however, the skill awful to use in PVP. A few patches ago when they adjusted the roll dodge animation timings and ability interactions, it went off the deep end. You cannot effectively use it as an active execute as the both the damage and the proc threshold is lower than other executes (50% for executioner and jesus beam, 25% for impale/killers blade) and it has a horrid interaction with roll dodge, failing to apply long before and after a dodge has completed. There was one patch where they tightened up the timing between the cast and the actual application on the target and it felt great, there was no delay between cast and effect. ZOS reverted that change after making the proc portion of the skill dodgeable again. Now there is an unofficial cast time because the delay between cast and effect is substantial.

This means it is ineffectve as a spammable execute like executioner (which is fine, it is intended as a delayed effect) but also ineffective as a delayed effect because its application easily dodged, somtimes does not apply even when the target has not recently dodged, so it can be difficult to tell if the cast of the execute even applied to the target properly. Its also worth mentioning that very few people use the execute in PVE as it can be a DPS loss. In my opinion, the cast should do no damage, and the proc threshold should perhaps be moved up to 25% health and the damage of the proc should be increased. As it stands, the small chip damage from the cast does little to nothing, and even when the ability does apply successfully, the proc damage is low enough that the target will not die from the cast, and since it is ineffective as a spammable execute, the target will dodge further executes, recover and heal up, rendering the execute useless when a target is in execute range.

Two additional pain points: endless fury's effect is excellent, returning almost 5K magick when a target dies, but mages wrath's morph effect is very weak; doubling the already very low aoe portion of the skill really has almost no use-case in pvp or pve, compare the aoe damage it causes to reverse slice to see why. Also people complain about kill stealing in PVP battlegrounds, well an easy solution here would be to implement a 1s "arming" timer to the skill to not allow it to proc untill it has been armed on the target, thus encouraging the caster to use the skill early in the fight, as intended, and discouraging spamming the skill to "steal kills".

TL:DR Mages Wrath might steal kills and have a lot of hate directed at it, but in combat it is clunky, frustrating to use, and frequently ineffective.

I can agree with most of this, I still think fair is fair tho and it should be sped up just like blast bones is being sped up.

TheFM

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Mag Sorc burst absolutely 100% does not need to be buffed for PvP (at least in no-CP). There are reasons that they're everywhere, and the burst + execute being outstanding is a big part of that. If the projectile gets sped up, there would need to be a reduction in damage, proc frequency, or some other form of nerfage.

Really? All I see is tons of wardens, stamcros, and templars. Nightblades and sorcs however are a rarity now. Wardens can actually completely negate everything a mag sorc throws at them. Auto purge of wrath and curse, and absorb super slow frags and unreliable light attacks. Yes sorc was op in the past, but by no means is it anywhere near the absurdity that wardens, templars and stamcros are atm.

TheFM

usmcjdking wrote: »

TheFM wrote: »

As it stands currently these two abilities are probably the slowest projectiles on the game right up there with templars flare. I noticed necros abilities are getting sped up to be faster than all those abilities, can we please update these travel times then? As is these abilities travel so slow it's laughable.

Instant travel time crystal frags?

You do realize that asking that is about as ridiculous as asking for a 24m instant cast dswing, right?

.3 second reduction in travel time will not make it instant cast or instant travel. That is not what I was asking for at all.

TheFM

Fur_like_snow wrote: »

I’ve seen frag hit as hard as my DB and you wanna speed up the travel time? Lmao no thanks.

Then that's a problem with your build. Not frags. No ones dB should be hitting for less than crystal frags. And dB has no travel time.

Fur_like_snow

Okay how about this. Remove cast times from ultimates and frags can have a slight travel time buff. 😉

DukeDiewalker

I'd say, remove the instant cast from Crystal Frags and make it cast time only. Also reduce its damage by 16%.
To bring Frags into the universal ZOS standard like Dizzy swing. While we're at it, the stun from Crystal Blast should also be removed and replaced by Off Balance, so you can have some immersive heavy attacks on the Magsorc as well.

wheem_ESO

TheFM wrote: »

ElvenVeil wrote: »

TheFM wrote: »

Also in what world does frags hit harder than an ulti?

just put together a fairly random setup to compare tooltips.

frags baseline here is 10989 damage. add the 33% damage boost to it and you have 14650 ~ tooltip.
obviously depending on how much of a dot you choose to eat or not heal up against, situations will change. but looking at the burst capability, which pvp is frankly all about these days, frags are looking very solid.

so with the same setup
frags 14650
meteor - 14200
2h ult: 14680
soul harvest: 12992
sweeps: 8387
take flight: 17053

I think frags is actually competing surprisingly well. So relating it back to your other posts of how cast times promote good pvp makes sense. If you up the speed of frags, the time we have to react will go down and for the sake of staying just a bit consistent across threads, I dont think increasing cast speed is in line with good reactive pvp that you otherwise like to see in this game, when the damage from that skill is actually surprisingly good

That 33 percent increase comes from an rng chance, it's very possible you can do 20 magicka abilities in a row and not get a single proc, so a .3 second reduction in travel speed would not make it op, it would make it on par with other hard hitting channeled abilities.

Yes, you can potentially end up casting many times in a row without getting a Crystal Frag proc. But you can also get several procs back-to-back.

TheFM wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Mag Sorc burst absolutely 100% does not need to be buffed for PvP (at least in no-CP). There are reasons that they're everywhere, and the burst + execute being outstanding is a big part of that. If the projectile gets sped up, there would need to be a reduction in damage, proc frequency, or some other form of nerfage.

Really? All I see is tons of wardens, stamcros, and templars. Nightblades and sorcs however are a rarity now. Wardens can actually completely negate everything a mag sorc throws at them. Auto purge of wrath and curse, and absorb super slow frags and unreliable light attacks. Yes sorc was op in the past, but by no means is it anywhere near the absurdity that wardens, templars and stamcros are atm.

Yes, really. Since I started playing some again a couple days ago, Mag Sorcs and Stam Templars have probably been the 2 most common classes I've seen in BGs. And your frustration with Magicka Warden cuts the other direction too, by the way. If you're halfway paying attention, the Warden's Shalks will rarely-if-ever actually land (which means that they can't kill you unless you make huge mistakes), and you can disengage from that player at will - but they can't escape you unless you let them.

Iskiab

Projectile speed are fine in no-CP, it’s just CP Cyro with all the dodge rolly builds where they’re a big negative.

Zulera301

pfah, as if magsorcs need to be any more OP.

Sephyr

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Yes, really. Since I started playing some again a couple days ago, Mag Sorcs and Stam Templars have probably been the 2 most common classes I've seen in BGs. And your frustration with Magicka Warden cuts the other direction too, by the way. If you're halfway paying attention, the Warden's Shalks will rarely-if-ever actually land (which means that they can't kill you unless you make huge mistakes), and you can disengage from that player at will - but they can't escape you unless you let them.

Can say the same thing about Cyrodiil too. I encounter more NBs and Sorcs than I do Wardens or Necros and I play on Kaalgrontiid.

juhislihis19

MagSorcs 100% don't need any buffs at the moment. End of.

Anotherone773

Frags is fine, I threw one at an Altmer and he died of old age before it landed. Sometimes ill throw run and then sprint up to the target and see if i can kill them before it lands.In PVP the other person goes through their rotation twice before it lands.

Frags use to be good now they are meh for pretty much everything.

Derra

DukeDiewalker wrote: »

I'd say, remove the instant cast from Crystal Frags and make it cast time only. Also reduce its damage by 16%.
To bring Frags into the universal ZOS standard like Dizzy swing. While we're at it, the stun from Crystal Blast should also be removed and replaced by Off Balance, so you can have some immersive heavy attacks on the Magsorc as well.

While the procc isn´t really up for debate - bc frags doesn´t fall into the spammable category like dizzy does:

Will they also make the casttime of frag uninterruptable reduce it by 20% and speed up heavyattacks for magica to match those of stamina aswell as remove the obnoxious audio cue from them?

ElvenVeil

Derra wrote: »

DukeDiewalker wrote: »

I'd say, remove the instant cast from Crystal Frags and make it cast time only. Also reduce its damage by 16%.
To bring Frags into the universal ZOS standard like Dizzy swing. While we're at it, the stun from Crystal Blast should also be removed and replaced by Off Balance, so you can have some immersive heavy attacks on the Magsorc as well.

While the procc isn´t really up for debate - bc frags doesn´t fall into the spammable category like dizzy does:

Will they also make the casttime of frag uninterruptable reduce it by 20% and speed up heavyattacks for magica to match those of stamina aswell as remove the obnoxious audio cue from them?

I think it sounds good oh and you have to be within 5 meters of the enemy

killingspreeb16_ESO

Derra wrote: »

DukeDiewalker wrote: »

I'd say, remove the instant cast from Crystal Frags and make it cast time only. Also reduce its damage by 16%.
To bring Frags into the universal ZOS standard like Dizzy swing. While we're at it, the stun from Crystal Blast should also be removed and replaced by Off Balance, so you can have some immersive heavy attacks on the Magsorc as well.

While the procc isn´t really up for debate - bc frags doesn´t fall into the spammable category like dizzy does:

Will they also make the casttime of frag uninterruptable reduce it by 20% and speed up heavyattacks for magica to match those of stamina aswell as remove the obnoxious audio cue from them?

What audio cue?because unless you are near the sorc i never heard anything.

How about they get the same audio cue from merciless?

You can hear it anytime even if you are far away from the NB and have music on.(not joking is actually this bad)

Kadoozy

Frags doesn't need sped up, but I could see it possibly on wrath. That is one of the issues with radiant destruction on templar as well. There is a short cast time, for both abilities, before any damage is actually applied. This can be enough time for someone to cloak or heal and it really hurts burst combos.

With radiant destruction, if nightblades keep spamming cloak, you cannot land the damage at all. Even with detect pots. Which I suspect is due to the initial cast time of the ability.

Though with wrath you at least have the 4 seconds of delay which is guaranteed to go off provided they go under 20%. Though I think execute mechanics definitely need looked at.

wheem_ESO

Anotherone773 wrote: »

Frags is fine, I threw one at an Altmer and he died of old age before it landed. Sometimes ill throw run and then sprint up to the target and see if i can kill them before it lands.In PVP the other person goes through their rotation twice before it lands.

Frags use to be good now they are meh for pretty much everything.

If you think the delay on Frags is bad, I invite you to try the currently live version of Blastbones. It isn't all that uncommon to be forced to wait 8 seconds between casts, because the skeleton got confused, stuck on terrain, CC'd, etc...

To rip off a cliched analogy: the Mag Sorc class is sort of like pizza...even when it's bad, it's still good. Magicka Sorcerers have spent most patches being amongst the top few classes, and with the current state of the game, I don't think they need any buffs at all. If there are some "pain points" that need to be addressed, fine, but there would probably have to be some other adjustments made to offset those things.