Unless you're telling me that's a Magden with a 2h sword, you are completely incorrect lol.

You want increased chilled chance? What about something like

Piercing Cold/ Glacial Presence

"Physical Damage has a small chance to apply chilled"

Or putting the chilled chance on Dive morphs. Bear morphs etc.

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

You want increased chilled chance? What about something like

Piercing Cold/ Glacial Presence

"Physical Damage has a small chance to apply chilled"

Or putting the chilled chance on Dive morphs. Bear morphs etc.

See, that's just playing way too much into Chilled and taking away from the very things that makes Stamden unique. So instead, how about an Arctic Blast rework? You and I agree that skill needs to be reworked, so how about;

Personal AoE (bit like Ritual, smaller radius)
No heal, deals damage every second
Scales off Highest Offensive stat (still useable by Mag)
Provides minor resists when active
Applies chilled

That doesn't take away from your uniqueness. Not at all. And I'm not a fan of your blast suggestion either. That skill as bad as it is in some places is a stun and it should stay as a stun for magicka.

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

That doesn't take away from your uniqueness. Not at all. And I'm not a fan of your blast suggestion either. That skill as bad as it is in some places is a stun and it should stay as a stun for magicka.

Also, you could keep the stun. Remove the minor resists. That's fine.

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Don't forget that Magicka warden has less access to weapon skills and skill lines. And has less variety they can pull off. They do not need stamden encroaching on their winter's embrace skills.

Yet Magicka Warden encroaches on every single AC skill. It has to go both ways.

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Don't forget that Magicka warden has less access to weapon skills and skill lines. And has less variety they can pull off. They do not need stamden encroaching on their winter's embrace skills.

Yet Magicka Warden encroaches on every single AC skill. It has to go both ways.

That is how magicka works on all classes because they don't have different weapon skills and passives. I want to help your class and your suggestions. But not when it damages the integrity of my own class.

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Don't forget that Magicka warden has less access to weapon skills and skill lines. And has less variety they can pull off. They do not need stamden encroaching on their winter's embrace skills.

Yet Magicka Warden encroaches on every single AC skill. It has to go both ways.

That is how magicka works on all classes because they don't have different weapon skills and passives. I want to help your class and your suggestions. But not when it damages the integrity of my own class.

Uh...no. Nightblade, for example. Surprise Attack does not have a meaningful Magicka spammable variant. So like I said, if that's the line in the sand we're drawing, remove the Magicka shalks morph, and use that to create the Morag Tong variant, so Stamdens choose between AoE fracture or poison damage buff.

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

As far as i see it. What is happening now for chilled is fine. We should be focusing on other stamden changes that don't hurt magicka warden's uniqueness. We need to focus on Bear and Dive and maybe even bird of prey for stamden.

Yet that's not happening. Of course it's fine to you because it's your change and you play Magden. It's not for me, because I play Stamden and this change is wholesale meaningless in many of the scenarios I will typically encounter. This change doesn't really benefit me at all in a huge swathe of scenarios. We can talk about changing Dive, but the last time they did, it made it horrendously worse, and altering the bleeds to just be on CD isn't enough, not nearly.

When Stamden is actually behind Magicka DPS, there's a deeper problem than "hey we need to fix Dive".

Which is why we need to fix more than just dive.

I have to say I have yet to see a single Magplar main complain about Ritual of Ret getting used by Stamplars. I'm really, really not understanding.

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Magblade has the DoT, Ground AoE and ranged spammable that stamblade does not have access to. All magden has is winter's revenge to seperate itself from stamden.

And I agree Magden needs new skills. I'm all for your proposed AB4.0 change, but that's going to come with some give and take. We both want our classes to be unique and competitive. I personally don't care if we share skills. I think that actually creates the very "spellsword" dynamic Warden seemed to be created for initially. But if Magden mains are going to get up in arms over a frost skill being used on Stamden, I 100% think it's nonsense that we have to share every AC skill. Shalks is central to Stamden's identity.

If you remove deep fissure from magicka warden, you fail to see the impact of what you'd be doing. I can't argue about this anymore. I want to help design suggestions for stamden that don't damage magden. And it seems that you don't want that.

So give me one. Suggest a change that isn't a "small chance" passive that meaningfully improves Stamden DPS without further destroying how Dive feels. Something unique. Not just "change the OB for bleeds". We need a hell of a lot more than that.

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

ATreeGnome wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

CleymenZero wrote: »

karios525 wrote: »

The passive should just give increased crit damage/healing otherwise you will end up with mag wardens running around with ice staffs yet again, and wondering why they keep getting agro and kicked from groups. As a main tank I have no tolerance for ice staff users period, they get one warning then kicked. There are few enough of us tanks left, even less who will pug dungeons anymore due to the drop in dps of casuals after the last round of nerfs. Zos either need to drop taunt from the ice staff passive, or just have the crit with no conditions.

Magwardens can keep the chilled status up from anywhere from 70-90% using Winter's Revenge alone *IF I'M NOT MISTAKEN* which is possible. The need to use an ice staff is not there at all in pve, you'll lose 8% single target damage for that, not interesting. If anything, they could use a Maelstrom ice staff (which I don't think is a good solution) or slot an ice glyph on their front bar.

Your concern shouldn't be one.

I don't believe it actually works like that. I have a character with full frost. Including winterborn and iceheart with elemental weapon and arctic blast alongside a frost enchantment and the frost aoes. Even then it's not proccing every second. If you can confirm math, it might be a bug.

I agree that uptimes are not great on Magden. Winter’s Revenge is an AoE DoT and therefore only has a 1% chance per tick to proc chilled. Now with Warden passives and Destruction passives this goes up to 4% per tick, but that’s still only around 40% chance to get one proc of chilled over a 12s Winter’s Revenge, and chilled only lasts 4s IIRC.

Even with a Frost Staff, Light and Heavy Attacks cannot cause chill, and Wall is another AoE DoT with a low chance (only 2% per tick, since it doesn’t benefit from the Winter passive).

The main sources of chill are going to be Elemental Weapon (33%), Asylum Staff Force Pulse (50%), or a Frost Enchant (40%). None of which were worth using on Warden before the new crit passive, so will have to test soon.

Winter's Revenge has a "higher chance to apply the chilled status effect" as a benefit of the morph. I'm unsure how much of an increase this is and how it scales with other status effect bonuses (is it multiplicative or additive with charged for example?). I doubt that it would make a huge difference but it would be interesting to see some empirical data on typical chilled uptimes for Winter's Revenge alone.

@ATreeGnome Interesting, yes it would be good to know exactly what that effect does to the % chance to proc chill.

I checked some logs where I used Winter’s Revenge as my only Frost skill on Yolnakriin and it resulted in 18.7% uptime. Now that boss flies away a few times, so if we look only at active time it seems to be closer to 22% uptime. So on average it seems to have caused chill about once every 18 ticks of Winter’s Revenge, so roughly 5-6% chance per tick on this low sample size.

The best way to have a better idea of the proc chance would be to kill a 6 or 25M dummy with only Winter's Revenge because there might be interference of other skills with Winter's Revenge.

To clarify, is it possible that, if an allie's FP procced the status that there would be some sort of cool-down on chill?

For example, when doing a roto on dummy with Asylum staff, I remember minor vuln being very high but when in raid situation, your Asylum staff being a source of minor vuln is pretty low when there's a healer or DPS providing it through fletcher infection or IA set (which isn't popular anymore but wtv).

So, I'm going by memory but it's just to illustrate a point. I believe, back in the days, minor vuln being 80% or more but in raid with other potential sources being 30% or less.

You see where I'm going? I was using the logs to determine a typical uptime for chilled not coming exclusively from Warden but when a warden is in group. I don't think we can use logs to determine proc chance of Winter's Revenge.

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

What do you need that fits in your rotation etc?

Here's where we are:

Missing Class DoTs that do competitive damage (Growing Swarm is roughly 2-3k behind the Mag version, is expensive, and counter-intuitive to the DoT nerf where Thaum has effectively become a dump CP)

AC Passive cost us 5-6% flat damage across the board

Dive is...bad. Just bad. The bleed isn't nearly as strong as you'd think, the OB effect is terrible, etc.

Shalks is fine.

Bear is okay. Dumb as a brick sometimes, but it's a central class identity aspect so I accept it.

Wings is weird. Passively does things. Wardens really need more active skills that deal meaningful damage.

Warden is in a miserable spot because we are a burst class in a burst damage meta that somehow still sucks in comparison to every other Stam. Despite being the "burstiest" Stam since release, that burst is still too little to actually push us anywhere near the top.

Here's the Issues:

You can't meaningfully buff shalks or the PVP community loses their collective damn minds

You can't use Frost skills because Magdens lose their minds

You can't buff the "band-aid" passives because people get bent out of shape about that

You can't do "minor" damage buffs because they aren't going to solve the problem unless there's about 20 of them

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

What do you need that fits in your rotation etc?

Here's where we are:

Missing Class DoTs that do competitive damage (Growing Swarm is roughly 2-3k behind the Mag version, is expensive, and counter-intuitive to the DoT nerf where Thaum has effectively become a dump CP)

AC Passive cost us 5-6% flat damage across the board

Dive is...bad. Just bad. The bleed isn't nearly as strong as you'd think, the OB effect is terrible, etc.

Shalks is fine.

Bear is okay. Dumb as a brick sometimes, but it's a central class identity aspect so I accept it.

Wings is weird. Passively does things. Wardens really need more active skills that deal meaningful damage.

Warden is in a miserable spot because we are a burst class in a burst damage meta that somehow still sucks in comparison to every other Stam. Despite being the "burstiest" Stam since release, that burst is still too little to actually push us anywhere near the top.

Here's the Issues:

You can't meaningfully buff shalks or the PVP community loses their collective damn minds

You can't use Frost skills because Magdens lose their minds

You can't buff the "band-aid" passives because people get bent out of shape about that

You can't do "minor" damage buffs because they aren't going to solve the problem unless there's about 20 of them

Okay i think what i suggested before will help. Changing dive to be a better spammable and bear to be a better skill. I don't think shalks needs a buff. And perhaps stamden could see a passive buff on piercing cold that benefits them seeing as it only buffs magicka warden at the moment. Just throwing these out here, but with dive, increase projectile speed on base and reverse the off balance proc range. With cutting dive, remove the off balance proc for the bleed, reduce the stacks to 3 but increase the bleed damage by a reasonable amount. Wild Guardian could see a change that would increase it's light attack speed and/or apply a bleed DoT for a few seconds when it does that falling heavy attack. Piercing Cold could be a stamden buff that increases damage in some way for stamden. I don't think physical penetration is a good idea, but perhaps... your bleeds can now apply chilled. That way it procs glacial presence. Bird of prey is tricky. I'm not sure what it could do instead of minor berserk.

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Okay i think what i suggested before will help. Changing dive to be a better spammable and bear to be a better skill. I don't think shalks needs a buff. And perhaps stamden could see a passive buff on piercing cold that benefits them seeing as it only buffs magicka warden at the moment.

Right, but you can say "changing dive" and "making bear better", but how? So far, I have seen you reject essentially every proposal there aside from changing the bleed to be just a CD instead of linked to OB. I want you to understand that's going to be a minimal DPS increase. Even in a PERFECT scenario under the current climate, the bleed accounts for 3-4k DPS on my parses last I checked. So even if we were in complete control and it bumped the bleed to 4-5k, that still leaves us miles behind the field. I think the part you're missing in this equation is how historically bad Stamden is right now lol

Check my comment. I just updated it.

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

I have a fun game I play sometimes, it's called "Find the Warden". You can play it Mag, Stam or both. All you need is to go to ESOlogs. So here, for example, this is the logs for Lokkestiiz HM. I'll show you how to play.

https://www.esologs.com/zone/rankings/12#boss=43&page=1


Essentially, you go down the leaderboards and find the Wardens. In this example, here they are;

#325 - Magden
#326 - Magden
#485 - Magden
#530 - Stamden
#622 - Magden
#630 - Stamden
#703 - Magden
#753 - Stamden
#762 - Magden
#789 - Stamden
#844 - Magden
#866 - Stamden
#872 - Magden
#903 - Magden
#919 - Magden
#956 - Stamden
#981 - Stamden
#987 - Magden

That's it for the top-1000. 18/1000. Magden is at least skirting the top-300. You don't even find a Stamden till you're outside of the top-500. That's a consistent trend, sadly.

Dude. Chill I'm trying to help you.