PSA: Warden DPS Is Still Terrible

Skjaldbjorn · January 2020

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

I'm also 99% sure Cutting Dive is not considered a "melee ability" meaning Stam Warden doesn't really benefit from the new Aegis set, either.

I hate this game.

The way i structured the passive, i made it so the entire class gains a crit damage bonus against chilled enemies. this is how the passive made it into the game. In a group environment Stamden benefits from the crit damage. this is mostly significant for stamdens in pve. I see it as a win for both DPS. but yeah, Dive and Arctic blast need to be looked at.

In the bulk of groups, tanks and healers are running lightning staves. Magdens are a rarity. Where is this chilled coming from?

Skjaldbjorn · January 2020

I am deeply struggling to understand why exactly anything Warden (particularly Stam) has to be the clunkiest, most awkward **** in the game. Templars get a 10% crit damage passive for slotting a spear skill. Stamplars can get it innately, Stamdens have literally no means to personally use it. We have to bring a magden or beg a tank to run a frost staff. We get a bleed on our spammable but it's tied to off-balance which is then immediately changed to be even more clunky and impossible to utilize than before. I can't wait until you have to personally pilot the bear for it to do any DPS. I assume that'll be the key Warden features in Greymoor. ffs.

Wouldn't it have made a hell of a lot more sense to replace the Minor Berserk on wings with this passive? It benefits everyone equally, takes up a slot with a non-damage skill, etc.

Runefang · January 2020

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

I'm also 99% sure Cutting Dive is not considered a "melee ability" meaning Stam Warden doesn't really benefit from the new Aegis set, either.

I hate this game.

The way i structured the passive, i made it so the entire class gains a crit damage bonus against chilled enemies. this is how the passive made it into the game. In a group environment Stamden benefits from the crit damage. this is mostly significant for stamdens in pve. I see it as a win for both DPS. but yeah, Dive and Arctic blast need to be looked at.

In the bulk of groups, tanks and healers are running lightning staves. Magdens are a rarity. Where is this chilled coming from?

Well Magden's bring their own chill.

Skjaldbjorn · January 2020

Runefang wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

I'm also 99% sure Cutting Dive is not considered a "melee ability" meaning Stam Warden doesn't really benefit from the new Aegis set, either.

I hate this game.

The way i structured the passive, i made it so the entire class gains a crit damage bonus against chilled enemies. this is how the passive made it into the game. In a group environment Stamden benefits from the crit damage. this is mostly significant for stamdens in pve. I see it as a win for both DPS. but yeah, Dive and Arctic blast need to be looked at.

In the bulk of groups, tanks and healers are running lightning staves. Magdens are a rarity. Where is this chilled coming from?

Well Magden's bring their own chill.

Right, but Stamdens are basically getting nada from this change realistically, which was my point.

Daemonai · January 2020

The Winter's Embrace skill tree is not a DPS tree.

ESO_Nightingale · January 2020

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

I'm also 99% sure Cutting Dive is not considered a "melee ability" meaning Stam Warden doesn't really benefit from the new Aegis set, either.

I hate this game.

The way i structured the passive, i made it so the entire class gains a crit damage bonus against chilled enemies. this is how the passive made it into the game. In a group environment Stamden benefits from the crit damage. this is mostly significant for stamdens in pve. I see it as a win for both DPS. but yeah, Dive and Arctic blast need to be looked at.

In the bulk of groups, tanks and healers are running lightning staves. Magdens are a rarity. Where is this chilled coming from?

Magicka wardens, Magicka Necros, frost glyphs and spammables like elemental weapon and force pulse.

ESO_Nightingale · January 2020

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

I'm also 99% sure Cutting Dive is not considered a "melee ability" meaning Stam Warden doesn't really benefit from the new Aegis set, either.

I hate this game.

The way i structured the passive, i made it so the entire class gains a crit damage bonus against chilled enemies. this is how the passive made it into the game. In a group environment Stamden benefits from the crit damage. this is mostly significant for stamdens in pve. I see it as a win for both DPS. but yeah, Dive and Arctic blast need to be looked at.

In the bulk of groups, tanks and healers are running lightning staves. Magdens are a rarity. Where is this chilled coming from?

Well Magden's bring their own chill.

Right, but Stamdens are basically getting nada from this change realistically, which was my point.

Incorrect. It's a buff for you when you're in a group. Especially in trials.

ESO_Nightingale · January 2020

Daemonai wrote: »

The Winter's Embrace skill tree is not a DPS tree.

It's changing from Tank only to Dps and Tank.

ESO_Nightingale · January 2020

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

I am deeply struggling to understand why exactly anything Warden (particularly Stam) has to be the clunkiest, most awkward **** in the game. Templars get a 10% crit damage passive for slotting a spear skill. Stamplars can get it innately, Stamdens have literally no means to personally use it. We have to bring a magden or beg a tank to run a frost staff. We get a bleed on our spammable but it's tied to off-balance which is then immediately changed to be even more clunky and impossible to utilize than before. I can't wait until you have to personally pilot the bear for it to do any DPS. I assume that'll be the key Warden features in Greymoor. ffs.

Wouldn't it have made a hell of a lot more sense to replace the Minor Berserk on wings with this passive? It benefits everyone equally, takes up a slot with a non-damage skill, etc.

I don't think Bird of Prey should have that buff or any sort of damage buff for that matter anymore. If it didn't have minor berserk, and instead a more powerful movement related effect, it allows for more choice on your bars.

Don't forget that your new Growing Swarm is very effective and not clunky.

But once again, i totally agree. Dive needs to be looked at. It's not in a good spot at all.

thadjarvis · January 2020

Chilled status effect (lasts 4 or 5s?) sources:

Of things currently used generally it’s frost ground AOE DoTs which have a 1% chance to proc each tick/second

Necro boneyard no buff (1%)
Warden or non-warden tank frost wall 100% (2%)
Winters Revenge 200% (3%)

Asylum Dest 100%
Frost enchant 20%

When I get pts I’ll test some things. But my guess is Enchant or Asylum (in group or self) would be the way to go over relying on AOE’s.

I can’t imagine going frost staves would be better than fire when one can just use fire with frost enchant (uptime not sure though).

Possibility for stamden: it would be worth testing a stamden rotation with a frost enchant vs a poison/defoul/poisons

D3N7157 · January 2020

dude do you have an idea how hard wardens hit in pvp already? you wanna buff them ?!

SodanTok · January 2020

D3N7157 wrote: »

dude do you have an idea how hard wardens hit in pvp already? you wanna buff them ?!

PVE DPS potential and PVP Burst potential are rarely connected to same skills and or passives.

D3N7157 · January 2020

SodanTok wrote: »

D3N7157 wrote: »

dude do you have an idea how hard wardens hit in pvp already? you wanna buff them ?!

PVE DPS potential and PVP Burst potential are rarely connected to same skills and or passives.

its zos we are talking about

SodanTok · January 2020

D3N7157 wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

D3N7157 wrote: »

dude do you have an idea how hard wardens hit in pvp already? you wanna buff them ?!

PVE DPS potential and PVP Burst potential are rarely connected to same skills and or passives.

its zos we are talking about

Its warden we are talking about, you might not have been here but this class is going from May 2017 up and down in PVE from worst to best to worst (tho only stam warden had those short moments of best and magwarden spent most of the time at worst) with zero impact on their PVP status :P

thadjarvis · January 2020

It’s crit, status effect conditional, and slanted towards magden. PvP stamden will likely see little to no benefit. PvP magden some but recall it’s crit which isn’t typically leveraged on PvP builds and almost all opponents run significant crit resist

Lughlongarm · January 2020

thadjarvis wrote: »

It’s crit, status effect conditional, and slanted towards magden. PvP stamden will likely see little to no benefit. PvP magden some but recall it’s crit which isn’t typically leveraged on PvP builds and almost all opponents run significant crit resist

That's exactly the idea, to improve PVE DPS without buffing PVP offensive capabilities(Warden is a good place in PVP).

ESO_Nightingale · January 2020

thadjarvis wrote: »

It’s crit, status effect conditional, and slanted towards magden. PvP stamden will likely see little to no benefit. PvP magden some but recall it’s crit which isn’t typically leveraged on PvP builds and almost all opponents run significant crit resist

With how magden works in pvp, it's not procing frost much at all considering most of the frost skills are ground aoes/aoes centered on caster. It's definitely a more pve oriented change until we get something like AB4.0 which at this point is very necessary now that we are down to AB3.0's garbage AoE stun and flame clench... you only proc chilled from force pulse rarely, arctic blast rarely, frost glyphs somewhat commonly and northern storm/permafrost which are ultimates.

ESO_Nightingale · January 2020

Lughlongarm wrote: »

thadjarvis wrote: »

It’s crit, status effect conditional, and slanted towards magden. PvP stamden will likely see little to no benefit. PvP magden some but recall it’s crit which isn’t typically leveraged on PvP builds and almost all opponents run significant crit resist

That's exactly the idea, to improve PVE DPS without buffing PVP offensive capabilities(Warden is a good place in PVP).

I don't think warden is in a good place in PvP. it still lacks a good or even fun combo, it's down to 2 limiting stun options and arctic blast is giving it way too much healing. Magdens are still only used in groups. i'd call it a mess right now.

Lughlongarm · January 2020

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

thadjarvis wrote: »

It’s crit, status effect conditional, and slanted towards magden. PvP stamden will likely see little to no benefit. PvP magden some but recall it’s crit which isn’t typically leveraged on PvP builds and almost all opponents run significant crit resist

That's exactly the idea, to improve PVE DPS without buffing PVP offensive capabilities(Warden is a good place in PVP).

I don't think warden is in a good place in PvP. it still lacks a good or even fun combo, it's down to 2 limiting stun options and arctic blast is giving it way too much healing. Magdens are still only used in groups. i'd call it a mess right now.

I play a Solo PvP Warden and I don't agree with you. I guess that you used the the broken vemp drain skill as part of your combo and your build was yet to be adjusted. Artic Blast is great, by far the best version of this skill. Not sure, what you have against it. If its so OP, use it.

ESO_Nightingale · January 2020

Lughlongarm wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

thadjarvis wrote: »

It’s crit, status effect conditional, and slanted towards magden. PvP stamden will likely see little to no benefit. PvP magden some but recall it’s crit which isn’t typically leveraged on PvP builds and almost all opponents run significant crit resist

That's exactly the idea, to improve PVE DPS without buffing PVP offensive capabilities(Warden is a good place in PVP).

I don't think warden is in a good place in PvP. it still lacks a good or even fun combo, it's down to 2 limiting stun options and arctic blast is giving it way too much healing. Magdens are still only used in groups. i'd call it a mess right now.

I play a Solo PvP Warden and I don't agree with you. I guess that you used the the broken vemp drain skill as part of your combo and your build was yet to be adjusted. Artic Blast is great, by far the best version of this skill. Not sure, what you have against it. If its so OP, use it.

Arctic Blast is not a great stun a lot of the time, in most scenarios, the 6m radius is extremely short. and the skill lasts for a very short period of time. the stun which requires 3 ticks to stun is very hard to control and in some cases can even hinder your allies by messing up one of their combos. As a tank skill it already has it's job done by gripping shards, and tanks mostly use polar wind. What's more is that people are getting sick of warden's healing from arctic blast seeing as it heals so much health unnecessarily. we already have a healing line with green balance so healing should mainly stay over there. Those are my problems with the skill. i would prefer to trade away the healing and awkwardness for a reliable and interesting damage skill that stuns an enemy you aim it at. like what I've shown before with AB4.0

Lughlongarm · January 2020

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

thadjarvis wrote: »

It’s crit, status effect conditional, and slanted towards magden. PvP stamden will likely see little to no benefit. PvP magden some but recall it’s crit which isn’t typically leveraged on PvP builds and almost all opponents run significant crit resist

That's exactly the idea, to improve PVE DPS without buffing PVP offensive capabilities(Warden is a good place in PVP).

I don't think warden is in a good place in PvP. it still lacks a good or even fun combo, it's down to 2 limiting stun options and arctic blast is giving it way too much healing. Magdens are still only used in groups. i'd call it a mess right now.

I play a Solo PvP Warden and I don't agree with you. I guess that you used the the broken vemp drain skill as part of your combo and your build was yet to be adjusted. Artic Blast is great, by far the best version of this skill. Not sure, what you have against it. If its so OP, use it.

Arctic Blast is not a great stun a lot of the time, in most scenarios, the 6m radius is extremely short. and the skill lasts for a very short period of time. the stun which requires 3 ticks to stun is very hard to control and in some cases can even hinder your allies by messing up one of their combos. As a tank skill it already has it's job done by gripping shards, and tanks mostly use polar wind. What's more is that people are getting sick of warden's healing from arctic blast seeing as it heals so much health unnecessarily. we already have a healing line with green balance so healing should mainly stay over there. Those are my problems with the skill. i would prefer to trade away the healing and awkwardness for a reliable and interesting damage skill that stuns an enemy you aim it at. like what I've shown before with AB4.0

I use the bird off-balance as a range stun and AB as a close range stun, works just fine. The healing is fair, it will heal like ~1k more than vines on an average offensive build, only vines cost 33% less magicka. So this is not a heal you want to spam unless you are a tank.

TheFM · January 2020

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Also i'd rather remove netch's auto purge than have it be nerfed by adding a cost to it.

Wait, is this actually being discussed? Applying a cost to our sustain skill is a terrible idea. Warden sustain is already horrendously bad (at least for Stam) compared to literally any other DPS class. I swear, the more I see of Warden changes (or lack of) and proposed alterations to bring "class identity", the more I am forced to accept that Zenimax is literally just chucking darts at a board and praying something sticks. The lack of direction and thought is just staggering.

Its essentially a free purge atm, that is not ok. Either the purge needs to go, or there needs to be a cost. As it stands it is impossible to fight a warden as anyone that has purgeable abilities.

ESO_Nightingale · January 2020

Lughlongarm wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

thadjarvis wrote: »

It’s crit, status effect conditional, and slanted towards magden. PvP stamden will likely see little to no benefit. PvP magden some but recall it’s crit which isn’t typically leveraged on PvP builds and almost all opponents run significant crit resist

That's exactly the idea, to improve PVE DPS without buffing PVP offensive capabilities(Warden is a good place in PVP).

I don't think warden is in a good place in PvP. it still lacks a good or even fun combo, it's down to 2 limiting stun options and arctic blast is giving it way too much healing. Magdens are still only used in groups. i'd call it a mess right now.

I play a Solo PvP Warden and I don't agree with you. I guess that you used the the broken vemp drain skill as part of your combo and your build was yet to be adjusted. Artic Blast is great, by far the best version of this skill. Not sure, what you have against it. If its so OP, use it.

Arctic Blast is not a great stun a lot of the time, in most scenarios, the 6m radius is extremely short. and the skill lasts for a very short period of time. the stun which requires 3 ticks to stun is very hard to control and in some cases can even hinder your allies by messing up one of their combos. As a tank skill it already has it's job done by gripping shards, and tanks mostly use polar wind. What's more is that people are getting sick of warden's healing from arctic blast seeing as it heals so much health unnecessarily. we already have a healing line with green balance so healing should mainly stay over there. Those are my problems with the skill. i would prefer to trade away the healing and awkwardness for a reliable and interesting damage skill that stuns an enemy you aim it at. like what I've shown before with AB4.0

I use the bird off-balance as a range stun and AB as a close range stun, works just fine. The healing is fair, it will heal like ~1k more than vines on an average offensive build, only vines cost 33% less magicka. So this is not a heal you want to spam unless you are a tank.

bird is another issue entirely

ESO_Nightingale · January 2020

TheFM wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Also i'd rather remove netch's auto purge than have it be nerfed by adding a cost to it.

Wait, is this actually being discussed? Applying a cost to our sustain skill is a terrible idea. Warden sustain is already horrendously bad (at least for Stam) compared to literally any other DPS class. I swear, the more I see of Warden changes (or lack of) and proposed alterations to bring "class identity", the more I am forced to accept that Zenimax is literally just chucking darts at a board and praying something sticks. The lack of direction and thought is just staggering.

Its essentially a free purge atm, that is not ok. Either the purge needs to go, or there needs to be a cost. As it stands it is impossible to fight a warden as anyone that has purgeable abilities.

i think it should keep the purge upon cast, but lose the auto purge.

TheFM · January 2020

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

TheFM wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Also i'd rather remove netch's auto purge than have it be nerfed by adding a cost to it.

Wait, is this actually being discussed? Applying a cost to our sustain skill is a terrible idea. Warden sustain is already horrendously bad (at least for Stam) compared to literally any other DPS class. I swear, the more I see of Warden changes (or lack of) and proposed alterations to bring "class identity", the more I am forced to accept that Zenimax is literally just chucking darts at a board and praying something sticks. The lack of direction and thought is just staggering.

Its essentially a free purge atm, that is not ok. Either the purge needs to go, or there needs to be a cost. As it stands it is impossible to fight a warden as anyone that has purgeable abilities.

i think it should keep the purge upon cast, but lose the auto purge.

Sorry, no one should have a free purge, no one. Its far too strong against people that rely on dots or delayed burst abilities.

ESO_Nightingale · January 2020

TheFM wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

TheFM wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Also i'd rather remove netch's auto purge than have it be nerfed by adding a cost to it.

Wait, is this actually being discussed? Applying a cost to our sustain skill is a terrible idea. Warden sustain is already horrendously bad (at least for Stam) compared to literally any other DPS class. I swear, the more I see of Warden changes (or lack of) and proposed alterations to bring "class identity", the more I am forced to accept that Zenimax is literally just chucking darts at a board and praying something sticks. The lack of direction and thought is just staggering.

Its essentially a free purge atm, that is not ok. Either the purge needs to go, or there needs to be a cost. As it stands it is impossible to fight a warden as anyone that has purgeable abilities.

i think it should keep the purge upon cast, but lose the auto purge.

Sorry, no one should have a free purge, no one. Its far too strong against people that rely on dots or delayed burst abilities.

Eh, i don't think so. It's 1 cast for 1 purge. It's very easy to layer more than 1 negitive effect on a person and lay down pressure.

Tolino · January 2020

"Winter’s Embrace
Glacial Presence: This passive now also increases your Critical Damage against enemies, and Critical Healing against allies who have been recently afflicted with the Chilled status effect."

Does anyone know how much crit-dmg / heal you get?

ESO_Nightingale · January 2020

Tolino wrote: »

"Winter’s Embrace
Glacial Presence: This passive now also increases your Critical Damage against enemies, and Critical Healing against allies who have been recently afflicted with the Chilled status effect."

Does anyone know how much crit-dmg / heal you get?

10% just as suggested

SeaUnicorn · January 2020

Warden is BIS healer and very good tank, it also performs great in PVP.
Warden slightly under-performs as mag dps and at the bottom of the barrel as stam dps in pve.
All and all I don't see how is it "in ashes". DPS might need some work, like bear is kinda dumb and does not dps much in trials, but then again every trial comp requires warden healer.

ATreeGnome · January 2020

The extra crit damage against chilled enemies would be amazing for stamden if there were ever any reason for groups to run stam and mag DPS together in a trial. Or if there were any additional reason for supports to go out of their way to apply chilled. Or if applying it yourself as a stam DPS were in any way practical.