This is true. Warden seems close to the other classes on a target dummy, but it doesn’t do very well in dynamic environments like trials. Its 10% bonus to magic damage means that Magden can still utilize skills like Consuming Trap and Degeneration (unlike most classes), as well as Orbs, Wall, Fetcher, Winters Revenge and Barbed Trap. The problem is that with this many DoTs to juggle, along with the Shalks every 3s, to maximize DPS, there is a long ramp-up time at the start of a fight or when switching targets. In Sunspire for example, the dragons like to fly away 3 times per boss, which means you have to perform this slow ramp-up 4 times. Also every time a dragon flies the remaining duration on DoTs is just wasted.

Warden needs to be more effective when using a reactive and dynamic rotation. This should be based around Deep Fissure, but it is just not powerful enough as the class burst skill, significantly weaker than Crystal Fragments or Merciless Resolve (sure Fissure is AoE, but that’s rarely much benefit). Fissure is even weaker than Blastbones, which is also AoE, even at close range, and additionally Blastbones is a better damage type (Fire is buffed 10% by Engulfing, can proc Burning, and works well with sets like BSW or Succession). Screaming Cliff Racer is so weak that it’s inferior to Force Pulse and Elemental Weapon despite the good Animal Companions passives.

The other problem with Warden DPS is that it still brings nothing to a group. A Warden DPS is not going to be able to keep up Frost Cloak, Minor Toughness, Minor Intellect, and provide the Harvest synergy, so a Warden healer or tank is always necessary. A Warden DPS can take care of Minor Vuln with Fetcher Infection, but we just established there is a Warden support that can also easily slot this one skill. Warden needs something to support the group while doing damage. Engulfing Flames is a great example of how to implement this. Personally, I think it would be very interesting to give a similar debuff to Wardens, but for Frost Damage. This would not only increase their DPS to competitive levels, but also help to buff the skills of any Necromancers in the group. To make sure a debuff like this stays on a DPS, not a support, it could be given a short duration (like 4-5s after a cast of Cliff Racer or Deep Fissure) or made to scale up to full strength with Spell Damage like the new Engulfing.

I think that they need to implement another magicka scaling damage skill into the class. Like AB4.0 that can be used both in pvp and pve, and then from there remove some of the raw damage bonuses and the heal from arctic blast. The only reason that we have all of those buffs is because our damage skills are mostly garbage and boring to boot. Also i'd rather remove netch's auto purge than have it be nerfed by adding a cost to it.

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Also i'd rather remove netch's auto purge than have it be nerfed by adding a cost to it.

Wait, is this actually being discussed? Applying a cost to our sustain skill is a terrible idea. Warden sustain is already horrendously bad (at least for Stam) compared to literally any other DPS class. I swear, the more I see of Warden changes (or lack of) and proposed alterations to bring "class identity", the more I am forced to accept that Zenimax is literally just chucking darts at a board and praying something sticks. The lack of direction and thought is just staggering.

It has been discussed in the past, since it purges and now does so every 5s. But said above, would rather the additional purges be removed than have a cost added.

But i agree with whats been said so far, they are still lacking in Trial PvE DPS. PvP is a whole other bag of worms atm.

So because of that and a few other reasons, is why i think that Arctic Blast needs a further rework to become a better damage and stun skill that is useful for both pve and pvp magicka dps. To me it makes the most sense. If they just remove the arctic blast heal without giving it much in return, people will probably just swap to polar wind with cries for nerfs. That would harm PvE tanks who actually use that morph. Arctic Blast isn't used as often and Tanks definitely don't need 2 morphs for 1 skill when Magdps has a lack of quality and quantity of damage skills.

PvE Magden:



____________________________________________________________________________________________________
The good stuff

I'm still enjoying that they are even acceptable vs a few patches a go but yes you don't see them much top end. Furthermore, I believe magden to be underrated in trials. Many prog leaders know this and often are excited to have a magden.

1. Other than the highest level groups, I rarely see in logs the Warden healer able to keep Fetcher on boss 70%. They are often regulated to distant positions so they keep the full setup while the other class with less utility skills runs Zen or a Templar in stack because they're skills lack range. Could be wrong, but from what I see most groups don't in fact have a Warden that maintains uptime. Thus, the Magden ensures that uptime, can tag all big adds, and provides major breach (if no magcro).
2. They still bring unique utility in SS portal and AS (OB, MV, MA). But for pure trial stack no, they don't bring much.
3. They produce a large amount of AOE second to necros I believe. The proposed AOE DoT cost reduction could in fact hurt Magden bc sustaining Fissure, Unstable, Mystic, Winters is a non-issue with FG. If other classes gain more AOE and Winters doesn't get cost reduction (bc it is quite strong) we could be in trouble in this regard.
   
   AOE in 4-player: I usually top damage relative to all but necro's when I run dungeon/Arena, but in logs you see relative DPS drop off in boss fights if there are few adds. With 3 DPS groups having one DD AOE focused actually does work well in many instances to cut down adds quickly. We are good 3 DPS providing MV as well; I believe that's the context in which Magden shines the most at the moment. So, it's still a positive imo even if ST doesn't match other classes.
   _____________________________________________________________________________________________________
   
   Weaknesses
   
   Warden Healer supplants other Wardens
   
   In trials, I agree that there's a consequence of the unequivocal power of the Warden healer, which can provide all the utility of a Magden. Plus the (non-magden) Warden healer group benefits outshine all other healers. They are so powerful and desirable that I don't use my old Warden tank main that much anymore in trials (made a Necro in SC and working on a NB this patch). It's not unlike DK's of recent past: DK tanks highly desired providing everything the DK class has to offer. As a consequence the other DK roles were rarely seen.
   
   It would be great if we could provide group with more warden buffs or such that having a Magden and no Warden healer is good enough (like stamplar for templar healer and to a lesser extend what they did with DK). Let OB and toughness be more reliable in addition to MV. The idea of buffs unique to magden and/or stamden is great, but I'd be fine with at least supplying more existing utility.
   
   • -take away minimum distance for OB proc. A magden has the tool, BoP, to leave stack and fire off a racer, but it's pretty quirky. Why is this limitation there; who cares? If PvP balance issue, put "OB on Monster at any range" in tooltip/code. Currently it's sadistic for stamden.
   • possibly a way to proc Minor Toughness: one idea would be to change Lotus so somehow have it proc on a trial group consistently. Maybe heal two+ allies with any ally that got healed within 10 seconds is healed last priority including those at full health. The sustain would beat netch as it is. So, DD would trade Netch passive (backbar) damage and purge for a bit more sustain and group buff. Reduce the heal if needed for balance; we just need the buff to be consistently maintained and not be a wasted a slot compensated by higher sustain than Netch for slight DPS loose.
   
   The bear is the other main issue:
   
   1. On an AOE class being tied to a ST ultimate makes no sense. Running AOE ultimate should way outshine Bear in AOE fights and it doesn't from my testing (haven't dummy tested so could be wrong)
   2. Let the bear be max single target DPS by a hair or could even be less given the utility of Master Architect it adds and certain presence of sustain passive on both bars. Or only best for execute focused ST encounters (see final point)
   3. Bear and MA are interlinked: MA could really be self+3 to make it work better in 4-player and so that 2 (or coordinated 4) sets cover a (mag) trial group. Also helps MagNB and MagTemp which don't provide much utility right now either over MagDK engulf, MagCro synergy/Colos, or MagSorc Beserk/synergy.
   4. Pets are super annoying in one of the most challenging 4-player instances (BRP). If we unslot it, our DPS on the bosses plummets unfortunately. Went in with a Stamden friend and myself on (Hurricane) sorc. What a PITA that run was. Yes you can control pets, but the AI target selection if not spamming control keybind is ludicrous in BRP.
   5. There are many trials where low cost ultimates aren't great because you want to stack Ulti's for a particular moment.
   6. Bloodthirsty does not apply to anything the bear does. Why the *$&# is that the case?
   
   ______________________________________________________________________________________
   
   All in all though happy how Magden went from a laugh to welcome in 2019. If they tighten up a couple things, it'd be as welcome as most other classes which I believe is a general ZoS goal.
   
   Stamden has similar issues but competes in stam which is harder and they have arguably the most difficult rotation in the game: Stamplar/Stamcro easiest/highest DPS with Stamden hardest/lowest. They are in the toughest spot of all DPS options it seems. In fact I have seen ONE Stamden once in a vDLC Trial since Scalebreaker dropped and that was someone's old main while still fine tuning his necros.

PvE Stamden:

1. Solid AoE. Shalks is still a solid skill overall, and while arguably clunky as hell, not quite as clunky or inconsistent as Blastbones. Probably needs to bring something else than just damage. Either make it the central class skill for Stam DPS or don't. There's a lot of half-assing and second-guessing it seems when it comes to Warden identity as far as DPS.
   
2. Birds is just...bad now. It used to be a terrific spammable, but it's outclassed by every stam class spammable now. The bleed is completely irrelevant in a heavy dose of content, as abandoning everything just to spam birds is not only clunky and inefficient, but feels absolutely horrendous to the user.
   
3. Our passives blow. I don't have a kinder way of saying that. Less passive regen than classes like Sorcs. Less damage gain. No unique gain such as Weapon Damage %, crit or anything of the like. A flat damage gain that's tied to class skills that repeatedly see nerfs is just...silly. Compared to overloaded kits passive-wise like Sorc, Nightblade and Necro, Warden is laughable at best.
   
4. The bear. I love the bear. I'd even be okay with tying more of our PVE power to the bear as far as passives and unique effects, but let it do something other than just damage. A double-barred straight damage ult hurts us too. Lacking the passive weapon damage from a skill like Dawnbreaker isn't helping us.

Some fixes/changes I have proposed repeatedly:

1. Increase in-class synergy. Tie it to shalks or the bear or the bugs. Add additional effects to Warden skills when cast on targets affected by _______. Make the bear ult more expensive but a group or self-buff. Give it a berserker vibe, or a nature's fury. Crit or weapon damage gain would be nice for 5-10 seconds. No major/minor stigma. Flat, stackable buff.
   
2. Remake our AC passives. Like...all of them. The healing passive is random and fairly useless. Re-scale the % damage passive to either 3-4%, or remove the skill requirement entirely and make it a flat 8-10% and adjust skill tooltips accordingly. Alternatively, tie the flat % gain entirely to the bear. I'd be fine with that. Make Warden the supreme single target damage dealer if that's what we have to do to find them a place. Keep the ult gen, that's fine. Bump the stam/mag regen to 18-20%, nerf the netch.
   
3. As Wrath alluded to, giving Stam a Morag Tong-styled debuff effect on shalks would be awesome. It creates a group buff that could be taken away from Morag to encourage Stamdens, or just make the Stamden version significantly stronger.
   
4. Just scrap the bird. Redo it entirely. Make it a non-ranged spammable for Stam. Make it like...claws. Kind of like the DK version, but a bleed. And spammy. Short-range, bursty and primal. Animals feel so abandoned within the Warden's kit. It's supposed to be a central class theme but instead just gives a "oh btw you can do this if you *really* want to" feel. Having a Warden rake enemies with a giant claw or talon would look crazy cool.
   
5. Give wings something other than berserk as a passive. As it stands, it's arguably completely outclassed by camo hunter. Not sure what i'd do with it, honestly, but it needs something else. I actually think minor berserk being removed from class skills was a great idea, and Warden should follow.
   
6. For Stam, i'd love to see shalks redesigned instead of as a burst skill to a pulsing skill. Small circle around the Warden (360 degrees), pulses every 1-2 seconds for 10-12 seconds. Less clunky, short-range AoE that's less busted in PVP but just as strong in PVE, allows you to shift burst power elsewhere into the kit. Just a random thought, really. Don't expect this one to happen by any stretch.

Honestly there's so much I want to say, so much venting I want to do. I still play my Stamden, and I stay somewhat competitive because I work my ass off. I do double the work for vastly inferior numbers and it's infuriating. I should be rewarded for my effort, not made to feel like a second rate player. When I can pick up a Stamplar and outparse my Stamden in THREE PARSES, having never played a Stamplar in any capacity but having main Stamden since Morrowind, there's an issue.

DW Stamplar : 87k (First day - best parse)
2H Necro: 91k (Second day - best parse)
2H Stam Sorc: 90k (Played off and on since Summerset, best parse)
Stamden: 85k (Mained since Morrowind, parse constantly, best parse)

I don't really play Stamblade or Stam DK, but yeah. That's gut-wrenching. I should not be able to just randomly hop on a class for the first time and dumpster something I have immense practice and intimate knowledge of. I barely even understand the Necro rotation and I dumpstered my Stamden.

Is this actually what Zenimax thinks is balance for Warden DPS? FFS.

thadjarvis wrote: »

Apologies for dyslexic prose. I am unable to edit on this device

Not to worry. It's a decent post! Reguarding removing the minimum range disance for off balance, i already told rich lambert about the issue of this skill, and how it forces you to create space. He asked me what i suggested for the skill and i said any other requirement would be good, even reversing the requirement from 7m+ to 7m and anything closer.

thadjarvis wrote: »

@Skjaldbjorn
Shalks: for me is the defining aspect of Warden DPS for me. It's what makes warden feel different...lining it up for max AOE damage. The change you suggest seems like it would be more passive like Solar Barrage. Seems less engaging. Secondly, it would hurt ranged Stam and Mag warden's if made into melee range. Mag morph could still be ranged, but bowden's are pretty popular (in the past).

Yes BoP doesn't help stamden, but it does magden in the mag heavy trials: AS, CR, SS portals. That's important bc we aren't great in stacks, so this let's us shine outside at least. Take that away and the one area we exceed others goes away. PvP too. Like the idea but more thought would have to go into how lack of berserk affects those wardens.

Sustain passive buff would be a size-able tankden buff to be aware off.

The argument for BOP is that camo hunter is still better for mag as well. It has 90+% uptime and allows you to single slot it front bar. It's incredibly strong.

Yeah fair point on the tankden buff. They need a sizeable nerf and I Warden tank lol

As it pertains to shalks, my idea was exclusively for the stam morph. Just a random thought i've had for a while, but I do see the point about how unique it is and i'm not opposed to keeping it. It's clunky, but not awful.

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

i'd give some quality of life changes to bear, dive and nature's grasp. making dive's 7m+ range minimum, into a maximum instead, so you can off balance closer targets without having the unreasonable penalty of needing to create space, and i'd change screaming cliff racer's morph effect too as it would be contradictory. with natures grasp, i'd make it's speed consistent across all of the morphs. not just bursting vines. i'd also ask for bug fixes to it. with bear, i think having 1 morph be the single target claw ultimate only would go a long way, of course, i'd ask for the soul trap treatment to wild guardian.

Flipping the range requirement doesn't really solve the central problem with the birds bleed. Having it linked to off-balance is a terrible idea in general. Off-balance is so randomly applied. Being able to apply it ourselves is useful in solo or possibly dungeon content, but in trials it's just as likely to already be on CD and that continues to warp our rotation beyond anything feasible or pleasant to play.

They just need to cap the bleed stacks and let them trigger through a means other than off-balance. It was a bad idea when they did it and with testing, that hasn't changed a bit.

To be perfectly honest, there's been a lot of balance blunders over the years, testing new ideas and generally experimenting, but the bleed stacks tied to off-balance is legitimately one of the most clueless, pointless changes I have ever seen. It's literally a luck check. If you happen to be on front bar when the boss is OB, awesome! If not, you can't feasibly abandon every cooldown you have running to spam birds. It's nonsensical. It's backwards thinking.

In all the 20+ years i've spent playing MMOs, I can not think of a single skill change that missed the mark so hard. Good idea, possibly the worst implementation I have ever seen.

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

i don't play stamden too often and therefore i didn't suggest anything to fix cutting dive. i don't think the thing was thought out well at all though. the bleed idea is interesting but really badly implemented.

but yeah i told rich lambert that it should either have a flipped requirement or something entirely different. a flipped requirement is much less punishing though because you don't have to create space by backing up. most fights especially in pvp are fought in really close quarters.

To be candid I think that's part of the problem. It doesn't seem like any of the devs or even class reps really play Stamden and it's infuriating. I get we're pretty low population and under-represented, but it just makes Stamden mains feel like the ignored and abused minority at this point. A flipped requirement sounds good in theory, but leaves the exact same issues in practice. There's got to be more input from actual Stamden players if anything is ever going to get resolved. Stamdens have essentially been in limbo since release.

@Skjaldbjorn
Agreed on poor testing. I would be willing to bet there's less than a half dozen players out there that main a stamden in end-game trials with 80k+ parses if not only you. And, even for you the bleed is challenging to proc in content. The skill ceiling to use it effectively is way too high.

PvE isn't really designed for using an off-balance dynamic. Add-ons don't track it well, you can't see the visual cue on many bosses, and it's a the CC aspect is useless. PvP dizzy is a great implementation of a dynamic off-balance design. I've heard that some Magden's use the OB stun in PvP but not sure how useful it is for stamden as they probably just use dizzy instead.

But for PvE the bird doesn't really matter IMO as there are many useful PvE spams for both mag and stam. Some classes don't have one, and others' spam doesn't beat weapon/guild option anyway.

What does matter for PvE value is Damage and Group buff. Stamden is low on both atm with omnipresent warden healers. The rest of the things we talked about is fine, but something as simple as Morag Tong debuff is all Stamden would need. For magden I'm not as sure. Ability to keep group toughness up would be good but wouldn't help with a likely warden in support. Ice debuff maybe, but if they added that to winters and took away damage for balance that wouldn't be good. I still think they are currently underrated as MV is not as high as people assume. So, just not sure.

Tankden has two nice buffs mid-year 2019: Polar Wind and Budding HoT. However, I thought with the DK changes they would loose some omnipresent dominance. They did not. DK tanks are still the default choice it seems in groups even if they aren't providing anything unique to the group when other DKs cover the debuffs/buffs. NB has become the other primary, and Tankcro's offer more than Tankden usually with the usual Warden healer. Until a tank class makes the top two choices over-buffing isn't much of a concern imo.

Not yet, conversation started from stamden's current position, and I chimed in on vague AOE DoT change which expanded into everything Warden DD. The thread may have jumped the gun on the purpose of the forum I guess (disscussing current), but PTS details should be coming out any day now.

Yes, Magden is in a pretty good spot now relative to 9 months ago for sure. Still seldom seen top end but not unseen like before.

Stamden has fallen out of favor quite a bit the last two patches. My sample size could be unique, but stamden's are the rarest build in end-game PvE currently (I've seen one once since Scalebreaker).

PvP Warden DD's seem quite common in Cyro or BG at the moment.

A lot of good points in this thread. I like the idea of more Frost damage skills. The concept of Warden being the Frost mage DPS class has always been disappointing when they have exactly one viable Frost damage skill (Winter’s Revenge) and cannot effectively use a Frost staff since it was made into a tank weapon. This could be solved any of several ways:
- Make Frost Staff a damage weapon again
- Make more Winter’s Embrace skills viable for DPS (maybe Northern Storm could be an offensive morph, it would have to be superior to Eye of the Storm for damage and competitive with the Bear to see any use)
- Change the damage type on some of the Animal Companions skills to Frost (this wouldn’t help the visual aspect of Frost magic, but would at least help make sets like Winterborn and Ysgramor viable on the class)

Someone also brought up Major Slayer sets. This is definitely true, since Warden used to be one of the better options for Master Architect or War Machine, but now groups with any Stamina DPS just use Lokkestiiz for Major Slayer. Even in full mag groups Warden is not effective for Major Slayer, since Magblade skills synergize better with the set (better damage from using it, better uptimes from ult passives, and better sustain so they don’t rely on False Gods).

I also like the idea of doing something better with Bird of Prey. Camo Hunter is definitely better right now since it can be single-barred, and in PVE end game (where Warden struggles most) the Minor Berserk buff is redundant with Combat Prayer. BoP could use something that buffs it in PVE, but doesn’t affect PVP. Maybe additional crit chance for slotting it? Like 10% Spell and Weapon Crit Chance that stacks with Major Savagery/Prophecy. Crit has a much larger impact on PVE than PVP (buffed by Warhorn, CP’s, Minor Force, and Shadow Stone, vs PVP with the Impen meta and often no-CPs). Or if the goal really is to kill off the vHoF sets then BoP could just provide Major Slayer while slotted .

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

A lot of good points in this thread. I like the idea of more Frost damage skills. The concept of Warden being the Frost mage DPS class has always been disappointing when they have exactly one viable Frost damage skill (Winter’s Revenge) and cannot effectively use a Frost staff since it was made into a tank weapon. This could be solved any of several ways:
- Make Frost Staff a damage weapon again
- Make more Winter’s Embrace skills viable for DPS (maybe Northern Storm could be an offensive morph, it would have to be superior to Eye of the Storm for damage and competitive with the Bear to see any use)
- Change the damage type on some of the Animal Companions skills to Frost (this wouldn’t help the visual aspect of Frost magic, but would at least help make sets like Winterborn and Ysgramor viable on the class)

See, I think you can actually accomplish the Frost Mage dynamic without making it non-tank. Check it out, instead of changing the Tri-Focus and Ancient Knowledge passives, just tack on to one of the passives in the Winter's Embrace tree. Something like;

Fully-charged Frost Staff heavy attacks apply hypothermia to the target, dealing 2% of their maximum health each second for 3 seconds and chilling nearby targets.

Equipping a Frost Staff increases Frost damage by 12%.

Something along those lines would go a long way, along with making the magicka AC variants more...frosty.

@Skjaldbjorn I just thought kyle might have indicated we had. And I piled in with magden

I agree wholeheartedly with your main point in that Stamden PvE is particularly in need. I'd concede over any other Warden (PvE tank, healer, stam, mag, and similarly the PvP equivalents).

Frostiness, class spammable, HoF sets would be nice but PvE stamden seems to be the Warden with the least availability to simply play it.


@WrathOfInnos Good point on HoF indeed with Lokk. But if it procced on 4 (3+self) I wonder how it would compare to lokk. In an advanced coordinated group 4 HoF sets could maintain 80-90% slayer uptime without Lokk (multi stack fights eg Yoln, AS). Wonder how that would compare to lokk especially if not a total stam group.

Also consider there may be a new stam trial set that beats Lokk or at least (new set on some) + (HoF sets on some) > all in Lokk.