PSA: Warden DPS Is Still Terrible

thadjarvis · January 2020

Good point. Indeed I rarely don relequen on my stamplar. In fact I pretty much never take Lokk off unless solo.

Agree that WM has little road to return...maybe on a non-trial tank if they buffed to proc on 3 allies (still tough as olo is likely better depending on ulti gen meaning a medium+light set). MA is really the only one left that still can work in mag groups.

ESO_Nightingale · January 2020

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

i don't play stamden too often and therefore i didn't suggest anything to fix cutting dive. i don't think the thing was thought out well at all though. the bleed idea is interesting but really badly implemented.

but yeah i told rich lambert that it should either have a flipped requirement or something entirely different. a flipped requirement is much less punishing though because you don't have to create space by backing up. most fights especially in pvp are fought in really close quarters.

To be candid I think that's part of the problem. It doesn't seem like any of the devs or even class reps really play Stamden and it's infuriating. I get we're pretty low population and under-represented, but it just makes Stamden mains feel like the ignored and abused minority at this point. A flipped requirement sounds good in theory, but leaves the exact same issues in practice. There's got to be more input from actual Stamden players if anything is ever going to get resolved. Stamdens have essentially been in limbo since release.

I know that Gina plays stam warden as of 05/04/2019.

When it comes to feeling ignored, i feel like it's the damage side of warden that mostly feels ignored as the tank and healing side regularly gets buffed. i feel like getting into arguments about what side is treated worse is pointless when we should be united.

Not so much trying to argue, honestly. Moreso highlight that it seems that Zenimax is devoid of genuine, end-game Warden perspectives and it's frustrating. I would wager that 90% of the Warden input they get/have is from a PVP perspective, or more casual players, which both deserve to be heard, but the side I represent (I don't really PVP) seems left out in the cold.

You weren't arguing but i just didn't want it to turn into that because you know what people are like on here.

ESO_Nightingale · January 2020

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

A lot of good points in this thread. I like the idea of more Frost damage skills. The concept of Warden being the Frost mage DPS class has always been disappointing when they have exactly one viable Frost damage skill (Winter’s Revenge) and cannot effectively use a Frost staff since it was made into a tank weapon. This could be solved any of several ways:
- Make Frost Staff a damage weapon again
- Make more Winter’s Embrace skills viable for DPS (maybe Northern Storm could be an offensive morph, it would have to be superior to Eye of the Storm for damage and competitive with the Bear to see any use)
- Change the damage type on some of the Animal Companions skills to Frost (this wouldn’t help the visual aspect of Frost magic, but would at least help make sets like Winterborn and Ysgramor viable on the class)

See, I think you can actually accomplish the Frost Mage dynamic without making it non-tank. Check it out, instead of changing the Tri-Focus and Ancient Knowledge passives, just tack on to one of the passives in the Winter's Embrace tree. Something like;

Fully-charged Frost Staff heavy attacks apply hypothermia to the target, dealing 2% of their maximum health each second for 3 seconds and chilling nearby targets.

Equipping a Frost Staff increases Frost damage by 12%.

Something along those lines would go a long way, along with making the magicka AC variants more...frosty.

I dunno man i like the idea a lot but our class is just stuffed with +X% damage passives and stuff i don't really want to add any more to that. I'd rather frost staff go back to damage after a new tank staff is created from the ground-up to be for tanking. If that ever happens

ESO_Nightingale · January 2020

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

A lot of good points in this thread. I like the idea of more Frost damage skills. The concept of Warden being the Frost mage DPS class has always been disappointing when they have exactly one viable Frost damage skill (Winter’s Revenge) and cannot effectively use a Frost staff since it was made into a tank weapon. This could be solved any of several ways:
- Make Frost Staff a damage weapon again
- Make more Winter’s Embrace skills viable for DPS (maybe Northern Storm could be an offensive morph, it would have to be superior to Eye of the Storm for damage and competitive with the Bear to see any use)
- Change the damage type on some of the Animal Companions skills to Frost (this wouldn’t help the visual aspect of Frost magic, but would at least help make sets like Winterborn and Ysgramor viable on the class)

Someone also brought up Major Slayer sets. This is definitely true, since Warden used to be one of the better options for Master Architect or War Machine, but now groups with any Stamina DPS just use Lokkestiiz for Major Slayer. Even in full mag groups Warden is not effective for Major Slayer, since Magblade skills synergize better with the set (better damage from using it, better uptimes from ult passives, and better sustain so they don’t rely on False Gods).

I also like the idea of doing something better with Bird of Prey. Camo Hunter is definitely better right now since it can be single-barred, and in PVE end game (where Warden struggles most) the Minor Berserk buff is redundant with Combat Prayer. BoP could use something that buffs it in PVE, but doesn’t affect PVP. Maybe additional crit chance for slotting it? Like 10% Spell and Weapon Crit Chance that stacks with Major Savagery/Prophecy. Crit has a much larger impact on PVE than PVP (buffed by Warhorn, CP’s, Minor Force, and Shadow Stone, vs PVP with the Impen meta and often no-CPs). Or if the goal really is to kill off the vHoF sets then BoP could just provide Major Slayer while slotted .

Northern storm is already the damage dealer morph. It encourages use by having major protection and a major buff to your max magicka stat when you use it.

Skjaldbjorn · January 2020

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

I dunno man i like the idea a lot but our class is just stuffed with +X% damage passives and stuff i don't really want to add any more to that. I'd rather frost staff go back to damage after a new tank staff is created from the ground-up to be for tanking. If that ever happens

Well, keep in mind I am also 100% for removing the wonky flat damage buff from the AC passives with something that makes more sense.

Skjaldbjorn · January 2020

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Northern storm is already the damage dealer morph. It encourages use by having major protection and a major buff to your max magicka stat when you use it.

I think this is another example of how a skill for Warden is great in small-scale content or PVP, but pretty much worthless to the extreme in trials lol

WrathOfInnos · January 2020

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

A lot of good points in this thread. I like the idea of more Frost damage skills. The concept of Warden being the Frost mage DPS class has always been disappointing when they have exactly one viable Frost damage skill (Winter’s Revenge) and cannot effectively use a Frost staff since it was made into a tank weapon. This could be solved any of several ways:
- Make Frost Staff a damage weapon again
- Make more Winter’s Embrace skills viable for DPS (maybe Northern Storm could be an offensive morph, it would have to be superior to Eye of the Storm for damage and competitive with the Bear to see any use)
- Change the damage type on some of the Animal Companions skills to Frost (this wouldn’t help the visual aspect of Frost magic, but would at least help make sets like Winterborn and Ysgramor viable on the class)

Someone also brought up Major Slayer sets. This is definitely true, since Warden used to be one of the better options for Master Architect or War Machine, but now groups with any Stamina DPS just use Lokkestiiz for Major Slayer. Even in full mag groups Warden is not effective for Major Slayer, since Magblade skills synergize better with the set (better damage from using it, better uptimes from ult passives, and better sustain so they don’t rely on False Gods).

I also like the idea of doing something better with Bird of Prey. Camo Hunter is definitely better right now since it can be single-barred, and in PVE end game (where Warden struggles most) the Minor Berserk buff is redundant with Combat Prayer. BoP could use something that buffs it in PVE, but doesn’t affect PVP. Maybe additional crit chance for slotting it? Like 10% Spell and Weapon Crit Chance that stacks with Major Savagery/Prophecy. Crit has a much larger impact on PVE than PVP (buffed by Warhorn, CP’s, Minor Force, and Shadow Stone, vs PVP with the Impen meta and often no-CPs). Or if the goal really is to kill off the vHoF sets then BoP could just provide Major Slayer while slotted .

Northern storm is already the damage dealer morph. It encourages use by having major protection and a major buff to your max magicka stat when you use it.

Northern Storm is less than half the damage of an Destro Ult or an Ice Comet (which is the same element and cost). And both of those better options are significantly worse than the Bear for DPS. Nobody trying to make a PVE DPS build would seriously consider using Northern Storm. And in its latest iteration it doesn’t even give passive Magicka for slotting (which used to be an option for niche petless magdens), you have to actually cast an ultimate that’s primary purpose is Major Protection to gain a ~5% damage boost from the temporary Magicka increase. Northern Storm is also player centered and barely more than melee range, and staying within that distance for 8s is not always an option with trial mechanics.

For PvP, sure it’s great, you can chase people with it and it protects you. Nobody is arguing that Wardens are weak in PVP.

ESO_Nightingale · January 2020

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

A lot of good points in this thread. I like the idea of more Frost damage skills. The concept of Warden being the Frost mage DPS class has always been disappointing when they have exactly one viable Frost damage skill (Winter’s Revenge) and cannot effectively use a Frost staff since it was made into a tank weapon. This could be solved any of several ways:
- Make Frost Staff a damage weapon again
- Make more Winter’s Embrace skills viable for DPS (maybe Northern Storm could be an offensive morph, it would have to be superior to Eye of the Storm for damage and competitive with the Bear to see any use)
- Change the damage type on some of the Animal Companions skills to Frost (this wouldn’t help the visual aspect of Frost magic, but would at least help make sets like Winterborn and Ysgramor viable on the class)

Someone also brought up Major Slayer sets. This is definitely true, since Warden used to be one of the better options for Master Architect or War Machine, but now groups with any Stamina DPS just use Lokkestiiz for Major Slayer. Even in full mag groups Warden is not effective for Major Slayer, since Magblade skills synergize better with the set (better damage from using it, better uptimes from ult passives, and better sustain so they don’t rely on False Gods).

I also like the idea of doing something better with Bird of Prey. Camo Hunter is definitely better right now since it can be single-barred, and in PVE end game (where Warden struggles most) the Minor Berserk buff is redundant with Combat Prayer. BoP could use something that buffs it in PVE, but doesn’t affect PVP. Maybe additional crit chance for slotting it? Like 10% Spell and Weapon Crit Chance that stacks with Major Savagery/Prophecy. Crit has a much larger impact on PVE than PVP (buffed by Warhorn, CP’s, Minor Force, and Shadow Stone, vs PVP with the Impen meta and often no-CPs). Or if the goal really is to kill off the vHoF sets then BoP could just provide Major Slayer while slotted .

Northern storm is already the damage dealer morph. It encourages use by having major protection and a major buff to your max magicka stat when you use it.

Northern Storm is less than half the damage of an Destro Ult or an Ice Comet (which is the same element and cost). And both of those better options are significantly worse than the Bear for DPS. Nobody trying to make a PVE DPS build would seriously consider using Northern Storm. And in its latest iteration it doesn’t even give passive Magicka for slotting (which used to be an option for niche petless magdens), you have to actually cast an ultimate that’s primary purpose is Major Protection to gain a ~5% damage boost from the temporary Magicka increase. Northern Storm is also player centered and barely more than melee range, and staying within that distance for 8s is not always an option with trial mechanics.

For PvP, sure it’s great, you can chase people with it and it protects you. Nobody is arguing that Wardens are weak in PVP.

I don't know if buffing northern storm is a good idea without nerfing the major protection aspect of the skill.

Skjaldbjorn · January 2020

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

I don't know if buffing northern storm is a good idea without nerfing the major protection aspect of the skill.

Personally, i'd like to see Northern Storm completely revamped. Permafrost does exactly what it's supposed to, it's a defensive-themed ultimate that centers around that concept. That's great. "It does what it says on the tin" as the adage goes. I would actually like to see Northern Storm completely redesigned to focus entirely on the DPS aspect and the frost mage dynamic.

Instead of it just being Permafrost Part Deux, I would have it function more like destro. A placed AoE DoT that can be moved by pressing the ult key again, like the DK Standard variant but instead of a snap-move it would slowly drift to the new location. A slow-moving blizzard would be incredibly cool thematically and fit the very essence of what a Magden was designed to be but never made it there. Extended ticks could do something like the Hypothermia effect I mentioned earlier where it starts dealing % health damage if you don't move out of it.

It would actually give Magdens a reliable, AoE ultimate in PVE that does competitive damage while giving PVP Magdens an option to instead have a way to "seal off" passages and doors through the fear of the added ticks killing you.

WrathOfInnos · January 2020

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

A lot of good points in this thread. I like the idea of more Frost damage skills. The concept of Warden being the Frost mage DPS class has always been disappointing when they have exactly one viable Frost damage skill (Winter’s Revenge) and cannot effectively use a Frost staff since it was made into a tank weapon. This could be solved any of several ways:
- Make Frost Staff a damage weapon again
- Make more Winter’s Embrace skills viable for DPS (maybe Northern Storm could be an offensive morph, it would have to be superior to Eye of the Storm for damage and competitive with the Bear to see any use)
- Change the damage type on some of the Animal Companions skills to Frost (this wouldn’t help the visual aspect of Frost magic, but would at least help make sets like Winterborn and Ysgramor viable on the class)

Someone also brought up Major Slayer sets. This is definitely true, since Warden used to be one of the better options for Master Architect or War Machine, but now groups with any Stamina DPS just use Lokkestiiz for Major Slayer. Even in full mag groups Warden is not effective for Major Slayer, since Magblade skills synergize better with the set (better damage from using it, better uptimes from ult passives, and better sustain so they don’t rely on False Gods).

I also like the idea of doing something better with Bird of Prey. Camo Hunter is definitely better right now since it can be single-barred, and in PVE end game (where Warden struggles most) the Minor Berserk buff is redundant with Combat Prayer. BoP could use something that buffs it in PVE, but doesn’t affect PVP. Maybe additional crit chance for slotting it? Like 10% Spell and Weapon Crit Chance that stacks with Major Savagery/Prophecy. Crit has a much larger impact on PVE than PVP (buffed by Warhorn, CP’s, Minor Force, and Shadow Stone, vs PVP with the Impen meta and often no-CPs). Or if the goal really is to kill off the vHoF sets then BoP could just provide Major Slayer while slotted .

Northern storm is already the damage dealer morph. It encourages use by having major protection and a major buff to your max magicka stat when you use it.

Northern Storm is less than half the damage of an Destro Ult or an Ice Comet (which is the same element and cost). And both of those better options are significantly worse than the Bear for DPS. Nobody trying to make a PVE DPS build would seriously consider using Northern Storm. And in its latest iteration it doesn’t even give passive Magicka for slotting (which used to be an option for niche petless magdens), you have to actually cast an ultimate that’s primary purpose is Major Protection to gain a ~5% damage boost from the temporary Magicka increase. Northern Storm is also player centered and barely more than melee range, and staying within that distance for 8s is not always an option with trial mechanics.

For PvP, sure it’s great, you can chase people with it and it protects you. Nobody is arguing that Wardens are weak in PVP.

I don't know if buffing northern storm is a good idea without nerfing the major protection aspect of the skill.

Yeah, making it powerful for both offense and defense could cause problems. There could definitely be one morph of each though. Permafrost could keep the Major Protection. And Northern Storm could get its damage doubled, but drop the Major Protection and Snare. It would need to keep the Max Magicka increase still (either the 8% passive or the 15% active for 30s) to avoid being outclassed by Mages Guild passives on Ice Comet.

ESO_Nightingale · January 2020

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

I don't know if buffing northern storm is a good idea without nerfing the major protection aspect of the skill.

Personally, i'd like to see Northern Storm completely revamped. Permafrost does exactly what it's supposed to, it's a defensive-themed ultimate that centers around that concept. That's great. "It does what it says on the tin" as the adage goes. I would actually like to see Northern Storm completely redesigned to focus entirely on the DPS aspect and the frost mage dynamic.

Instead of it just being Permafrost Part Deux, I would have it function more like destro. A placed AoE DoT that can be moved by pressing the ult key again, like the DK Standard variant but instead of a snap-move it would slowly drift to the new location. A slow-moving blizzard would be incredibly cool thematically and fit the very essence of what a Magden was designed to be but never made it there. Extended ticks could do something like the Hypothermia effect I mentioned earlier where it starts dealing % health damage if you don't move out of it.

It would actually give Magdens a reliable, AoE ultimate in PVE that does competitive damage while giving PVP Magdens an option to instead have a way to "seal off" passages and doors through the fear of the added ticks killing you.

I think that's too similar to shifting standard. And besides we already have icy rage. It does way more damage because it doesn't increase your max magicka and have major protection, while costing 50 more ultimate and having less duration. I don't know what you could do to the ultimate to make it different. Though reguarding icy rage, i think the aoe immobilize is really bad. I'd make it more similar to lighting rage where you can increase its uptime. Not in terms of duration, but reduce it's cost by 15% or something. i don't want icy rage to continue being left in the dust. it's not used at all.

Vaoh · January 2020

The Northern Storm morph is meant for an “Ice Mage” Mag Warden dps. Slotting for its passive Max Mag bonus wasn’t interesting and the current version isn’t so great. The Ice Mage spec will never be competitive amongst other PvE DPS with how this morph is being handled. Permafrost is already better at defense (and really strong). I’d like for Northern Storm to be totally reworked for pure offense:

Sleet Storm

Time: Instant
Target: Area
Radius: 10 meters
Duration: 8 seconds
Cost: 200 Ultimate
Twist a violent storm around you, dealing 227 Frost Damage every 1 second for 8 seconds to enemies around you and reducing their Movement Speed by 70%. You and nearby allies gain Major Protection, reducing your damage taken by 30%.

Permafrost

Time: Instant
Target: Area
Radius: 10 meters
Duration: 12 seconds
Cost: 200 Ultimate
Twist a violent storm around you, dealing 227 Frost Damage every 1 second for 12 seconds to enemies around you and reducing their Movement Speed by 70% and applying the Chilled status effect. You and nearby allies gain Major Protection, reducing your damage taken by 30%.

———————
New effect: Applies the Chilled status effect to enemies hit. Increases the duration as the ability ranks up.

Wintry Aura

Time: Instant
Target: Area
Radius: 6 meters
Duration: 50 seconds
Cost: 200 Ultimate
Invoke an aura of frozen magic around you, enhancing Frost Damage abilities with Minor Force, 6% less Magicka cost, and 40% more benefit toward Spell Damage which only affects Frost Damage abilities.

Screaming Cliff Racer becomes Frigid Dive, dealing Frost Damage and striking up to 3 nearby enemies within 6 meters.

Deep Fissure becomes Deep Freeze, dealing Frost Damage and taking an additional second to trigger, but stirring ice wraiths which deal an additional 50% Damage over 4 seconds.

Fetcher Infection becomes Withering Swarm, dealing Frost Damage and increasing the target’s Frost Damage taken from all attacks by 6%.

While Active: Casting towards water forms a 3 meter patch of ice at the targeted location which can be walked on. Sinks after 4 seconds. Costs 3000 Magicka and an additional 20% Magicka each cast until the ultimate expires.

———————
New effect: No longer twists a storm around you. Empowers Frost-based magic. Increases the duration.

If the “Ice Mage” concept is ever going to be a competitive through only changing Northern Storm then this is how to do it. I’d hope it felt like a different playstyle from the typical Mag Warden and had new viable set choices (Ysgramor’s Birthright, etc). Having multiple *unique* skill setups/playstyles on each Mag spec that are within 1K DPS of each other would be nice.

ESO_Nightingale · January 2020

Vaoh wrote: »

The Northern Storm morph is meant for an “Ice Mage” Mag Warden dps. Slotting for its passive Max Mag bonus wasn’t interesting and the current version isn’t so great. The Ice Mage spec will never be competitive amongst other PvE DPS with how this morph is being handled. Permafrost is already better at defense (and really strong). I’d like for Northern Storm to be totally reworked for pure offense:

Sleet Storm
Time: Instant
Target: Area
Radius: 10 meters
Duration: 8 seconds
Cost: 200 Ultimate
Twist a violent storm around you, dealing 227 Frost Damage every 1 second for 8 seconds to enemies around you and reducing their Movement Speed by 70%. You and nearby allies gain Major Protection, reducing your damage taken by 30%.

Permafrost
Time: Instant
Target: Area
Radius: 10 meters
Duration: 12 seconds
Cost: 200 Ultimate
Twist a violent storm around you, dealing 227 Frost Damage every 1 second for 12 seconds to enemies around you and reducing their Movement Speed by 70% and applying the Chilled status effect. You and nearby allies gain Major Protection, reducing your damage taken by 30%.

———————
New effect: Applies the Chilled status effect to enemies hit. Increases the duration as the ability ranks up.

Wintry Aura
Time: Instant
Target: Area
Radius: 6 meters
Duration: 50 seconds
Cost: 200 Ultimate
Invoke an aura of frozen magic around you, enhancing Frost Damage abilities with Minor Force, 6% less Magicka cost, and 40% more benefit toward Spell Damage which only affects Frost Damage abilities.

Screaming Cliff Racer becomes Frigid Dive, dealing Frost Damage and striking up to 3 nearby enemies within 6 meters.

Deep Fissure becomes Deep Freeze, dealing Frost Damage and taking an additional second to trigger, but stirring ice wraiths which deal an additional 50% Damage over 4 seconds.

Fetcher Infection becomes Withering Swarm, dealing Frost Damage and increasing the target’s Frost Damage taken from all attacks by 6%.

While Active: Casting towards water forms a 3 meter patch of ice at the targeted location which can be walked on. Sinks after 4 seconds. Costs 3000 Magicka and an additional 20% Magicka each cast until the ultimate expires.

———————
New effect: No longer twists a storm around you. Empowers Frost-based magic. Increases the duration.

If the “Ice Mage” concept is ever going to be a competitive through only changing Northern Storm then this is how to do it. I’d hope it felt like a different playstyle from the typical Mag Warden and had new viable set choices (Ysgramor’s Birthright, etc). Having multiple *unique* skill setups/playstyles on each Mag spec that are within 1K DPS of each other would be nice.

that is a very interesting idea but i think tying it to ultimate activation really limits it. not to mention the new water freezing thing doesn't really make sense or offer any benefit. what if it had less powerful effects in-exchange for it passively changing the skills, but activating it gives you only the frost aoe with no major protection or a snare.

Vaoh · January 2020

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

The Northern Storm morph is meant for an “Ice Mage” Mag Warden dps. Slotting for its passive Max Mag bonus wasn’t interesting and the current version isn’t so great. The Ice Mage spec will never be competitive amongst other PvE DPS with how this morph is being handled. Permafrost is already better at defense (and really strong). I’d like for Northern Storm to be totally reworked for pure offense:

Sleet Storm
Time: Instant
Target: Area
Radius: 10 meters
Duration: 8 seconds
Cost: 200 Ultimate
Twist a violent storm around you, dealing 227 Frost Damage every 1 second for 8 seconds to enemies around you and reducing their Movement Speed by 70%. You and nearby allies gain Major Protection, reducing your damage taken by 30%.

Permafrost
Time: Instant
Target: Area
Radius: 10 meters
Duration: 12 seconds
Cost: 200 Ultimate
Twist a violent storm around you, dealing 227 Frost Damage every 1 second for 12 seconds to enemies around you and reducing their Movement Speed by 70% and applying the Chilled status effect. You and nearby allies gain Major Protection, reducing your damage taken by 30%.

———————
New effect: Applies the Chilled status effect to enemies hit. Increases the duration as the ability ranks up.

Wintry Aura
Time: Instant
Target: Area
Radius: 6 meters
Duration: 50 seconds
Cost: 200 Ultimate
Invoke an aura of frozen magic around you, enhancing Frost Damage abilities with Minor Force, 6% less Magicka cost, and 40% more benefit toward Spell Damage which only affects Frost Damage abilities.

Screaming Cliff Racer becomes Frigid Dive, dealing Frost Damage and striking up to 3 nearby enemies within 6 meters.

Deep Fissure becomes Deep Freeze, dealing Frost Damage and taking an additional second to trigger, but stirring ice wraiths which deal an additional 50% Damage over 4 seconds.

Fetcher Infection becomes Withering Swarm, dealing Frost Damage and increasing the target’s Frost Damage taken from all attacks by 6%.

While Active: Casting towards water forms a 3 meter patch of ice at the targeted location which can be walked on. Sinks after 4 seconds. Costs 3000 Magicka and an additional 20% Magicka each cast until the ultimate expires.

———————
New effect: No longer twists a storm around you. Empowers Frost-based magic. Increases the duration.

If the “Ice Mage” concept is ever going to be a competitive through only changing Northern Storm then this is how to do it. I’d hope it felt like a different playstyle from the typical Mag Warden and had new viable set choices (Ysgramor’s Birthright, etc). Having multiple *unique* skill setups/playstyles on each Mag spec that are within 1K DPS of each other would be nice.

that is a very interesting idea but i think tying it to ultimate activation really limits it. not to mention the new water freezing thing doesn't really make sense or offer any benefit. what if it had less powerful effects in-exchange for it passively changing the skills, but activating it gives you only the frost aoe with no major protection or a snare.

That could work too. Just some ideas

Maybe doublebarring it and having it be a toggle (like the Bear) might be good, whatever helps it play/feel different and be competitive.

The water freezing thing was just to put another unique feature in there. Wardens can freeze things so why not let them freeze water to traverse terrain differently 🤷‍♂️

Anhedonie · January 2020

The issue is with long winded, well-telegraphed, delayed attacks. Necro suffers from the same issues.
Basically, the thing is new gen classes are terribly designed and you won't get far by just tweaking numbers here. Some skills need a rework.

ESO_Nightingale · January 2020

Anhedonie wrote: »

The issue is with long winded, well-telegraphed, delayed attacks. Necro suffers from the same issues.
Basically, the thing is new gen classes are terribly designed and you won't get far by just tweaking numbers here. Some skills need a rework.

I agree with this sentiment. I think magicka warden needs 1 more real dps skill with a usable stun on it. something like my AB4.0 idea:

I know i post this a lot, but i really think it would help to fix some of our issues regarding:

gaining back a ton of subclass identity, by having a truly defining skill to be recognised by.
gaining back a competent class stun that can be controlled and used offensively.
getting another damage skill to use in both pve and pvp, thus increasing the class's popularity in general, if only a little bit.
gaining a new combo to replace the old one we lost during summerset to help us kill as our execute is on our bear pet.

other reasons why this specific skill should exist (in my opinion) are:

This morph is the lesser used morph of the 2 tank heals, thus it being changed doesn't hurt tanks very much as they already have a skill that can stop movement with gripping shards.
As this is the specific morph of the tank heal which is currently being abused to make our class really tanky, this means that we would lose survivability and thus help against this tank meta that people hate and find really boring, this skill being changed in this specific way means that there are incentives to take it over polar wind in pvp and pve, which helps to protect against this issue in the future of pvp.

Obviously this new skill would be quite powerful, so i'd ask for the removal or nerfing of some of the abundant raw damage boosts that we have. like with piercing cold or minor berserk.

(i've recently updated my AB4.0 idea and removed the additional off-balance stun, and included the increased duration in the green text)

edit: to avoid confusion, the tornado of this skill would fire off at the start of the ability in the direction you aim at. it would travel in a line. if you need a reference, think about it as a much better version of the mad tinkerer set. or the flame blossom set. if you want to know how fast it is, use frozen gate's arm time as reference. if you place frozen gate at the maximum distance in pve, the time it takes to arm is the same time it takes for the tornado to get to that point. so it is fast.

WrathOfInnos · January 2020

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

I don't know if buffing northern storm is a good idea without nerfing the major protection aspect of the skill.

Personally, i'd like to see Northern Storm completely revamped. Permafrost does exactly what it's supposed to, it's a defensive-themed ultimate that centers around that concept. That's great. "It does what it says on the tin" as the adage goes. I would actually like to see Northern Storm completely redesigned to focus entirely on the DPS aspect and the frost mage dynamic.

Instead of it just being Permafrost Part Deux, I would have it function more like destro. A placed AoE DoT that can be moved by pressing the ult key again, like the DK Standard variant but instead of a snap-move it would slowly drift to the new location. A slow-moving blizzard would be incredibly cool thematically and fit the very essence of what a Magden was designed to be but never made it there. Extended ticks could do something like the Hypothermia effect I mentioned earlier where it starts dealing % health damage if you don't move out of it.

It would actually give Magdens a reliable, AoE ultimate in PVE that does competitive damage while giving PVP Magdens an option to instead have a way to "seal off" passages and doors through the fear of the added ticks killing you.

I think that's too similar to shifting standard. And besides we already have icy rage. It does way more damage because it doesn't increase your max magicka and have major protection, while costing 50 more ultimate and having less duration. I don't know what you could do to the ultimate to make it different. Though reguarding icy rage, i think the aoe immobilize is really bad. I'd make it more similar to lighting rage where you can increase its uptime. Not in terms of duration, but reduce it's cost by 15% or something. i don't want icy rage to continue being left in the dust. it's not used at all.

Icy Rage is not an option for PVE DPS because it requires use of a Frost Staff (risk taunting, weak Wall of Elements, lose the 8% damage bonus). Even with the 10% Frost Damage passive Icy Rage is weaker than the Fire or Lightning versions. I think it’s intended as a tank ultimate, that’s what it has CC like a giant form of Talons. However it’s too expensive and not useful enough to justify use on a tank either.

ESO_Nightingale · January 2020

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

I don't know if buffing northern storm is a good idea without nerfing the major protection aspect of the skill.

Personally, i'd like to see Northern Storm completely revamped. Permafrost does exactly what it's supposed to, it's a defensive-themed ultimate that centers around that concept. That's great. "It does what it says on the tin" as the adage goes. I would actually like to see Northern Storm completely redesigned to focus entirely on the DPS aspect and the frost mage dynamic.

Instead of it just being Permafrost Part Deux, I would have it function more like destro. A placed AoE DoT that can be moved by pressing the ult key again, like the DK Standard variant but instead of a snap-move it would slowly drift to the new location. A slow-moving blizzard would be incredibly cool thematically and fit the very essence of what a Magden was designed to be but never made it there. Extended ticks could do something like the Hypothermia effect I mentioned earlier where it starts dealing % health damage if you don't move out of it.

It would actually give Magdens a reliable, AoE ultimate in PVE that does competitive damage while giving PVP Magdens an option to instead have a way to "seal off" passages and doors through the fear of the added ticks killing you.

I think that's too similar to shifting standard. And besides we already have icy rage. It does way more damage because it doesn't increase your max magicka and have major protection, while costing 50 more ultimate and having less duration. I don't know what you could do to the ultimate to make it different. Though reguarding icy rage, i think the aoe immobilize is really bad. I'd make it more similar to lighting rage where you can increase its uptime. Not in terms of duration, but reduce it's cost by 15% or something. i don't want icy rage to continue being left in the dust. it's not used at all.

Icy Rage is not an option for PVE DPS because it requires use of a Frost Staff (risk taunting, weak Wall of Elements, lose the 8% damage bonus). Even with the 10% Frost Damage passive Icy Rage is weaker than the Fire or Lightning versions. I think it’s intended as a tank ultimate, that’s what it has CC like a giant form of Talons. However it’s too expensive and not useful enough to justify use on a tank either.

you're totally right, however, i don't think we should get any more similar to it. because it would make the ultimate even more worthless.

i think northern storm's magicka boost is a step in the right direction in that you have to activate it for it's direct benefits, but at the same time i don't think it's morph effect should really exist. it's a 15% magicka boost for 30 seconds. which is just bizarre. not against a new idea, but at the same time, i don't know what else it should have. i'm against more raw damage boosts because we have so many but at the same time an engulfing flames for frost sounds so enticing. i'm really conflicted.

Skjaldbjorn · January 2020

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

you're totally right, however, i don't think we should get any more similar to it. because it would make the ultimate even more worthless.

i think northern storm's magicka boost is a step in the right direction in that you have to activate it for it's direct benefits, but at the same time i don't think it's morph effect should really exist. it's a 15% magicka boost for 30 seconds. which is just bizarre. not against a new idea, but at the same time, i don't know what else it should have. i'm against more raw damage boosts because we have so many but at the same time an engulfing flames for frost sounds so enticing. i'm really conflicted.

I think this kind of exemplifies the problem Zenimax seems to have currently. They seem afraid to step outside of an arbitrary box they've created. Like, take the Sorc change for bound armaments. It's not a bad skill. It feels okay to use. It looks alright. But in reality, it's just a re-hash of Grim Focus. That isn't class identity. You can't copy/paste a skill with very subtle changes and define a class by that. Look at the iconic skills from other classes. Jabs, Killer's Blade, Shrouded, Hurricane, Siphon (as clunky as it is...), so on and so forth. These are iconic skills that don't feel like anything else in the game, or do something no other class has access to. The only skills I could legitimately say that about for Warden are Gate, Shalks and the healing vine. Other than that, Wardens are very plain, and lack any real meaningful identity. And most of their iconic skills aren't even useful in a lot of scenarios.

To fix Warden outside of a flat raw numbers perspective, there's going to have to be some steps taken outside the box.

xAk_MoRRoWiNdx · January 2020

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Also i'd rather remove netch's auto purge than have it be nerfed by adding a cost to it.

Wait, is this actually being discussed? Applying a cost to our sustain skill is a terrible idea. Warden sustain is already horrendously bad (at least for Stam) compared to literally any other DPS class. I swear, the more I see of Warden changes (or lack of) and proposed alterations to bring "class identity", the more I am forced to accept that Zenimax is literally just chucking darts at a board and praying something sticks. The lack of direction and thought is just staggering.

*cough nightblade's Siphoning Strikes cough*

Skjaldbjorn · January 2020

xAk_MoRRoWiNdx wrote: »

*cough nightblade's Siphoning Strikes cough*

*cough* way more stacked passives *cough* in-class execute *cough* regen from ult *cough*

Just saying. Yeah, comparing those skills in a vacuum tells one story. Kit to kit, there's absolutely no comparison.

ESO_Nightingale · January 2020

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

you're totally right, however, i don't think we should get any more similar to it. because it would make the ultimate even more worthless.

i think northern storm's magicka boost is a step in the right direction in that you have to activate it for it's direct benefits, but at the same time i don't think it's morph effect should really exist. it's a 15% magicka boost for 30 seconds. which is just bizarre. not against a new idea, but at the same time, i don't know what else it should have. i'm against more raw damage boosts because we have so many but at the same time an engulfing flames for frost sounds so enticing. i'm really conflicted.

I think this kind of exemplifies the problem Zenimax seems to have currently. They seem afraid to step outside of an arbitrary box they've created. Like, take the Sorc change for bound armaments. It's not a bad skill. It feels okay to use. It looks alright. But in reality, it's just a re-hash of Grim Focus. That isn't class identity. You can't copy/paste a skill with very subtle changes and define a class by that. Look at the iconic skills from other classes. Jabs, Killer's Blade, Shrouded, Hurricane, Siphon (as clunky as it is...), so on and so forth. These are iconic skills that don't feel like anything else in the game, or do something no other class has access to. The only skills I could legitimately say that about for Warden are Gate, Shalks and the healing vine. Other than that, Wardens are very plain, and lack any real meaningful identity. And most of their iconic skills aren't even useful in a lot of scenarios.

To fix Warden outside of a flat raw numbers perspective, there's going to have to be some steps taken outside the box.

The only thing that is really similar to grim focus is that it's a proc skill that requires light attacks. Other than that i think it's entirely unique. Hell i even sent an idea to gilliam about 4 months before bound armaments was implemented into the game, that is remarkably similar to it called icicle flurry. The only 2 things that were changed are: proc condition and number of projectiles.

thadjarvis · January 2020

Whelp no love for Stamden unless in group chilling things (Asylum staff/Magden).

Magden seems interesting. Though anyone have any idea how "Critical Healing against" works. That just mean buff to healing an ally that is chilled? Likely pretty niche except a counter to Frost mages in PvP and maybe tons of frost damage in 2020 PvE content (but do PvE warden healers really need a healing potency buff even if niche?)

SidraWillowsky · January 2020

MAGDEN LIVES

ESO_Nightingale · January 2020

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

MAGDEN LIVES

We got an exact change from one of our suggestions. A great day to be a Magden. Chilled is useful for the Damage Dealer now. Repeat it with me folks!

Runefang · January 2020

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

MAGDEN LIVES

We got an exact change from one of our suggestions. A great day to be a Magden. Chilled is useful for the Damage Dealer now. Repeat it with me folks!

I'm excited to test out the changes this week.

Skjaldbjorn · January 2020

Welp, I predicted this one. Largely Warden went untouched. Magdens did receive a nice buff, and i'm happy for all my Mag homies.

However, Stamden went untouched, and likely took an indirect nerf. The OB changes means the Barrage-based rotation should no longer line up, and Hail rotations will be an absolute disaster, making ever getting bleed stacks on a boss even more difficult than it already was. For this to EVER be worth it our bleeds would need to be pulling 12k DPS. rofl. This is absurd. The buff to magdens is great and stam can utilize it with a Magden, but we can't apply chilled. Are we supposed to run a damn Maelstrom staff now?

@ESO_Nightingale Can we finally agree not having any semblance of a voice from a PVE Stamden is a damn issue?

Skjaldbjorn · January 2020

ZOS: So we're giving Warden "class identity" by making your spammable apply a bleed when you do clunky, inefficient things to fit off-balance timers. Buff, amirite? We buff. Much buff.

ALSO ZOS: LOL jk have fun we f***** the OB up/down dynamic good luck kids

Skjaldbjorn · January 2020

I'm also 99% sure Cutting Dive is not considered a "melee ability" meaning Stam Warden doesn't really benefit from the new Aegis set, either.

I hate this game.

ESO_Nightingale · January 2020

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

I'm also 99% sure Cutting Dive is not considered a "melee ability" meaning Stam Warden doesn't really benefit from the new Aegis set, either.

I hate this game.

The way i structured the passive, i made it so the entire class gains a crit damage bonus against chilled enemies. this is how the passive made it into the game. In a group environment Stamden benefits from the crit damage. this is mostly significant for stamdens in pve. I see it as a win for both DPS. but yeah, Dive and Arctic blast need to be looked at.