Do people not realise this game is a MMO foremost?

iiYuki · January 2020

Every time a new DLC is announced its the same thing "I dont like dungeons, why are you locking story content in dungeons ZO$? How am I... a solo player suppose to enjoy this content". Here's the answer... Just queue like everyone else, anyone can complete a normal dungeon and the people who say "everyone is rushing and wont let me read the text", have you tried asking at the start of the run "Hello I have not done this dungeon before and need to do the quest would you mind waiting for me", 90% of people will happily wait for you.
I've even seen one post asserting that "dungeon people" don't like story so why bother adding one, which seems rather presumptuous.
I don't get much chance to play trials other than a couple of times a month I happen to be on when my guild is running an older one, I doubt I'll see anything of the last few trials released for quite some time, I don't take to the forums every new trial release to lambaste trials and how I dont get to do them, so no-one should.
If you dont want to pay for a DLC that some of the content you dont want, then sub and play it that way unless you are playing an hour a week you can complete a whole DLC story in a day or two.
Do people forget this is an MMO-RPG, would you even be playing it if it wasn't called The ELDER SCROLLS Online or is it like how people still play Fallout 76, a multiplayer game, just because its a Fallout game then complain its multiplayer.
ESO doesn't pretend to be anything but a MMO, its always been an MMO and its content will reflect that.
They release dungeon DLCs and people post how ZO$ only release one big DLC a year for solo players and the rest are dungeon DLCs that they don't want. What do you want them to do, I could understand if the DLCs story REQUIRED a trial to get into but you can just go on "dungeon finder > normal specific > tick the dungeon you want" and queue as a DPS, 10 - 20 minutes later you're done and don't need to touch a dungeon till the next DLC launch.

CMDR_Un1k0rn · January 2020

I would suggest making friends with people, you know, just be a generally likeable person which really isn't difficult, and join a good guild. I suspect you'll have no problems finding friends who'll do a story run with you.

Ironic that this advice comes from me, who is so introverted he turns mute when at the checkout at the shop.

VaranisArano · January 2020

My gripe is that putting a connected storyline (even tangentially) behind DLC dungeons that don't unlock until level 45 makes it impossible for new players to do the storyline chronologically. The Prologue quests do the same thing - Elsweyr Prologue was terrible for anyone who started as a new player with the Chapter, cutting them out of the literal reason for the main conflict of the Chapter.

The practice of making a new tutorial for the newest Chapter is a great marketing strategy, but its awful in the context of a Year-Long Story.

The Q3 DLC dungeons did it right - "these are stories that happen at the same time as the Chapter, but have no connection to the plot".

Just because this is an MMO doesn't negate the fact that its also an RPG. I wish ZOS took greater care with its story.

Edited: there's already a big, active thread discussing this. I'm not sure why we needed another one. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/508529/my-biggest-gripe-about-dark-heart-story-in-group-dlc

virtus753 · January 2020

iiYuki wrote: »

ESO doesn't pretend to be anything but a MMO, its always been an MMO and its content will reflect that.

I seem to recall watching a stream in which the developers actually stated that they see ESO as an RPG first and foremost. So it doesn't "pretend" to be anything but an MMO, no - the developers explicitly see it otherwise.

ETA (and correct): https://www.pcgamesn.com/the-elder-scrolls-online-tamriel-unlimited/the-elder-scrolls-online-MMORPG

"“We don’t even use the term MMO with The Elder Scrolls Online anymore, because really it’s not,” game director Matt Firor says."

pod88kk · January 2020

The new chapter is ~60% more expensive that the last one, why the sudden price increase?

Linaleah · January 2020

here's what i don't understand.

why do some many people think that MMO = MUST GROUP or GTFO.

the problem is not that some content is group only. that's fine. the problem is that putting story into group only content - makes it difficult to impossible to genuinely enjoy that story at whichever pace each individual player prefers to absorb the video game stories and the environments they are set in. because everyone has slightly different preference, even like-minded individuals. there is a lot to enjoy as a group - coordinated combat be it pvp or pve. roleplay. just general socializing with people as you play. fishing. costume contests. there is a LOT that this game being persistent massive world - makes it possible.

that is NOT counterintuitive to alow people to do what this game advertises - play at their own pace, and that means solo play - solo stories.

its not as much of a problem when those stories are stand alone. still sucks because there are a lot of cool stories in dungeons, but they ARE generaly stand alone, like side quests.

but the last 2 expansions - are specifically tying dungeons into main story. THAT. is. a problem.

yes I've done these dungeons in a group of people who were in it for the story as well. yes, it still wasn't anywhere near the pace that i would have preferred for myself. it was better then nothing. but better then nothing is not the same is good.

VaranisArano · January 2020

pod88kk wrote: »

The new chapter is ~60% more expensive that the last one, why the sudden price increase?

That seems to depend on your currency? The US price is the same as Elsweyr and Morrowind were.

TheNuminous1 · January 2020

virtus753 wrote: »

iiYuki wrote: »

ESO doesn't pretend to be anything but a MMO, its always been an MMO and its content will reflect that.

I seem to recall watching a stream in which the developers actually stated that they see ESO as an RPG first and foremost. So it doesn't "pretend" to be anything but an MMO, no - the developers explicitly see it otherwise.

ETA (and correct): https://www.pcgamesn.com/the-elder-scrolls-online-tamriel-unlimited/the-elder-scrolls-online-MMORPG

"“We don’t even use the term MMO with The Elder Scrolls Online anymore, because really it’s not,” game director Matt Firor says."

BOOM.

Not even the directors and people who make the game call it an mmo. Whole argument demolished with a quote hell ya!

ArchMikem · January 2020

There's literally a quote out there by the Devs stating they made ESO as an RPG first and an MMO second.

Gilvoth · January 2020

Linaleah wrote: »

here's what i don't understand.

why do some many people think that MMO = MUST GROUP or GTFO.

the problem is not that some content is group only. that's fine. the problem is that putting story into group only content - makes it difficult to impossible to genuinely enjoy that story at whichever pace each individual player prefers to absorb the video game stories and the environments they are set in. because everyone has slightly different preference, even like-minded individuals. there is a lot to enjoy as a group - coordinated combat be it pvp or pve. roleplay. just general socializing with people as you play. fishing. costume contests. there is a LOT that this game being persistent massive world - makes it possible.

that is NOT counterintuitive to alow people to do what this game advertises - play at their own pace, and that means solo play - solo stories.

its not as much of a problem when those stories are stand alone. still sucks because there are a lot of cool stories in dungeons, but they ARE generaly stand alone, like side quests.

but the last 2 expansions - are specifically tying dungeons into main story. THAT. is. a problem.

yes I've done these dungeons in a group of people who were in it for the story as well. yes, it still wasn't anywhere near the pace that i would have preferred for myself. it was better then nothing. but better then nothing is not the same is good.

well said.
quoted for truth.

Maxx7410 · January 2020

mmmm the creators said that this is an mmo focused in rpg soo..... we can expect more rpg than a typical MMO

FierceSam · January 2020

iiYuki wrote: »

Every time a new DLC is announced its the same thing "I dont like dungeons, why are you locking story content in dungeons ZO$? How am I... a solo player suppose to enjoy this content". Here's the answer... Just queue like everyone else, anyone can complete a normal dungeon and the people who say "everyone is rushing and wont let me read the text", have you tried asking at the start of the run "Hello I have not done this dungeon before and need to do the quest would you mind waiting for me", 90% of people will happily wait for you.
I've even seen one post asserting that "dungeon people" don't like story so why bother adding one, which seems rather presumptuous.
I don't get much chance to play trials other than a couple of times a month I happen to be on when my guild is running an older one, I doubt I'll see anything of the last few trials released for quite some time, I don't take to the forums every new trial release to lambaste trials and how I dont get to do them, so no-one should.
If you dont want to pay for a DLC that some of the content you dont want, then sub and play it that way unless you are playing an hour a week you can complete a whole DLC story in a day or two.
Do people forget this is an MMO-RPG, would you even be playing it if it wasn't called The ELDER SCROLLS Online or is it like how people still play Fallout 76, a multiplayer game, just because its a Fallout game then complain its multiplayer.
ESO doesn't pretend to be anything but a MMO, its always been an MMO and its content will reflect that.
They release dungeon DLCs and people post how ZO$ only release one big DLC a year for solo players and the rest are dungeon DLCs that they don't want. What do you want them to do, I could understand if the DLCs story REQUIRED a trial to get into but you can just go on "dungeon finder > normal specific > tick the dungeon you want" and queue as a DPS, 10 - 20 minutes later you're done and don't need to touch a dungeon till the next DLC launch.

Dungeons are great.

They’re just the wrong mechanism to deliver coherent main storylines.

Irrespective of the plot, the mechanics to tell stories effectively to groups are simply inadequate. And no matter how much we might like dungeons, players who want to play the year long story are correct in saying that it’s a mistake to lock main, long term story content within them.

Much as I loved the look of Scalebreaker or the final boss in Depths of Malatar, neither of last year’s dungeon DLCs did anything to advance the Year of the Dragon storyline. Regular dungeon players race past it as if it’s an inconvenience, players wanting to follow the story are equally disappointed. Their entire impact was summed up by one line of Abnur Tharn dialogue when he met you at the start of the Elsweyr prologue quest. Meanwhile the only connection that the Scalebreaker dungeons had with the main story was so peripheral that no additional dialogue was needed.

markulrich1966 · January 2020

so you start a new thread to avoid that people read the very detailed explanation, that was given before?

I vote that this thread gets locked, there already is one that answers your question:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/453375/solo-dungeon-mode-please/p1

Maxx7410 · January 2020

simple make another form to play the same dungeons alone with NPC companions! but this wau you should not get the rewars that doing the dungeon in a group give you, that way people will have some motive to continue forming groups

those NPC can have history, you can equip them, select they advance, etc they only fight in dungeons as your companions no in pvp or overland bosses ect

craybest · January 2020

most MMOs I've played included some story parts in dungeons. ffxiv has lots of it in dungeons and it's a good storydriven game. I personally don't see the problem. most of the time I just let people know I want to know the story and have time to read and it works, assuming i ask nicely of course.

Kiralyn2000 · January 2020

iiYuki wrote: »

ESO doesn't pretend to be anything but a MMO, its always been an MMO and its content will reflect that.

So, like most mass-market MMOs out there, 80%+ solo content?

(I've played MMOs solo since vanilla WoW. But I also accept that some fraction of the content will be group, and I won't be able to do it.)

Kidgangster101 · January 2020

You all can say it's not a mmo but at the end if the day it is. Google eso awards and your first search is proof it is a mmo and that zos is proud it is a mmo.

"Best mmo of the year 3 years in a row"
"Most improved mmo"

Yep won awards as a mmo but it's really not a mmo...... Keep telling yourself differently it must be great koolaide lol

Sylvermynx · January 2020

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

iiYuki wrote: »

ESO doesn't pretend to be anything but a MMO, its always been an MMO and its content will reflect that.

So, like most mass-market MMOs out there, 80%+ solo content?

(I've played MMOs solo since vanilla WoW. But I also accept that some fraction of the content will be group, and I won't be able to do it.)

Makes two of us!

Dusk_Coven · January 2020

Yes it is an MMO. And like another successful MMO, Path of Exile, all story content must be PvE SOLO-able.
It's not a new idea. SWTOR has been doing it for years. ZOS is obviously doing it all wrong, completely behind the times.

Only traders need the Massively Multiplayer part on all the time, to swindle other players with overpriced goods that can be bought more cheaply from an NPC vendor. Without a huge population of suckers, they can't make their millions.

MasterSpatula · January 2020

For the most part, people's complaint is not that the have to do dungeons with a group, but rather that dungeon groups are frequently somewhere between unfriendly to outright-hostile to anyone who takes the time to read the dialogue or, Heaven forbid, listen to the voice acting.

People want to be able to do story content at their own pace. In fact, people should be able to do story content at their own pace.

BaiterOfZergs · January 2020

Think like in year one or two the devs said this game isn’t an mmo but an rpg with mmo aspects. People should have the option to get into the story outside of dungeons, it won’t hurt anyone if another option is added. If casual players are the majority and the majority of players aren’t completing dlc dungeons, then I just don’t see how the devs can’t offer something else for those players.

virtus753 · January 2020

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

You all can say it's not a mmo but at the end if the day it is. Google eso awards and your first search is proof it is a mmo and that zos is proud it is a mmo.

"Best mmo of the year 3 years in a row"
"Most improved mmo"

Yep won awards as a mmo but it's really not a mmo...... Keep telling yourself differently it must be great koolaide lol

You're equivocating here.

Is ESO massively multi-player? Is it online? There's no denying either of those things. But those are merely mechanical definitions, ones used for determining "MMO" eligibility for purposes such as your awards.

To ask whether ESO is a true MMO in the sense of that genre being a core part of the game's identity is another question entirely, and that's what Matt Firor was addressing in his interview. (It's a lot longer than that one quote, and it's fairly enlightening about his perspective on the game's identity and direction.) There's extensive baggage that comes with the MMO label. The devs have disclaimed that MMO identity and its baggage entirely.

It doesn't accord with ESO's self-identification as an "online RPG" to sequester integral story content behind MMO mechanics that the vast majority of players demonstrably don't do.

Mr_Walker · January 2020

Cool story OP. Not sure what you think you're winning, but OK.

PS, MMORPG. You've missed the "RPG" part. Disingenuous of you?

eklhaftb16_ESO · January 2020

This is an Elder Scrolls game foremost, and the entire point of Elder Scrolls is the story and the world.

Also, MMORPG means simply "more than a handful people playing their characters while sharing the same persistent world". There's no rule that MMORPG must have instanced group-only dungeons, or raids, or even PvP. None of those constitute an organic part of the world, and the core game works perfectly well without them. They are only there to cater to a specific segment of the playerbase (namely, to people who can't imagine a MMORPG without group dungeons, raids and PvP). On the other hand, the story is there for everybody, therefore it should be readily accessible to everybody, without chasing the players through the hoops of some niche-appeal instanced group minigames.

When you want to read a book or watch a movie, you shouldn't be forced to play a round of Angry Birds in order to access it.

Ohtimbar · January 2020

I have a lot of problems with the game, but I appreciate being free to group or not when and if I choose. I'd like to see it taken much further, actually. It's based on the bloody Elder Scrolls after all, a formerly premiere single player arpg, so no surprise a lot of lone wolves are roaming about.

Kidgangster101 · January 2020

Ohtimbar wrote: »

I have a lot of problems with the game, but I appreciate being free to group or not when and if I choose. I'd like to see it taken much further, actually. It's based on the bloody Elder Scrolls after all, a formerly premiere single player arpg, so no surprise a lot of lone wolves are roaming about.

At the end of the day if people only want to play alone then just play any of the older games (or new solo player games). If they don't put group content in this game what is the actual purpose to have it be an online game where others are around? I never get the argument of "the older games were all single player" because that argument can be used about most games that turn to mmo. Final fantasy put out 10 games before ff11 online released and still continue to put out solo games.

LoneStar2911 · January 2020

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

At the end of the day if people only want to play alone then just play any of the older games (or new solo player games).

No.

haelene · January 2020

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

At the end of the day if people only want to play alone then just play any of the older games (or new solo player games).

I like having options, including solo'ing. Sometimes I want to play this game solo - other times with my wife, other times with a larger group. I think an MMO that offers options that fulfill all of those moods and player types is ultimately more successful anyways because it can draw in more people and keep those people playing longer. More people spending more valuable time in game means a more financially stable game, which is - at the end of the day - better for everyone.

Kiralyn2000 · January 2020

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Yes it is an MMO. And like another successful MMO, Path of Exile...

PoE is an ARPG/Diablo-like.

ChunkyCat · January 2020

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

Ironic that this advice comes from me, who is so introverted he turns mute when at the checkout at the shop.

Amazon Prime.

And don’t knock, just leave the package at the door and walk away >,>

colossalvoids · January 2020

Most of so called ''tes fans'' was offered story mode in single player games for too long (cheats) so all those who came because marketing speeches like: ''It's not even an mmo, you can do whatever you want and don't really need to group'' don't want to ''learn to play'' like others, they simply seek handholding again so we'll hear those screams as long as game will exist.

And yeah, putting no story in dungeons and trials is most bizarre thing I've read on forums so far, let's put some dummies even in a room, surely will do for those ''elitist'' dpsers.