Ariades_swe wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »So stamDK/stamcro is better then stamplar/magDK in U24? We probably are playing different games.
Ghees did u even checked the end of each videos....
He puts stamplar in S-tier for both solo and smallscale.
Way above mdk.
MartiniDaniels wrote: »
I looked them all partially... his arguments maybe valid but ranking stamcro same as stamden and placing stamplar as 2nd weakest stamclass, while also telling that both NB are unplayable. (Rank D) This all is just wildly against what I personally see in practice, so I respectfully disagree with this rating.
Great video, only thing I'll point out is that the Stam mechanic discussed in comparison to Proxy det does exist as the Masters 2h. Obviously it's way more convenient as a skill choice than a gear choice, but access to both might create it's own imbalance issue.
Great video, only thing I'll point out is that the Stam mechanic discussed in comparison to Proxy det does exist as the Masters 2h. Obviously it's way more convenient as a skill choice than a gear choice, but access to both might create it's own imbalance issue.
Cleave is a little undertuned. Some people tried it in large scale and found it meh.
It looks like one of those abilities that’s been toned down with the master’s weapon in mind. So with the master’s weapon it’s decent, but everything else suffers because the opportunity cost is too high.
relentless_turnip wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »relentless_turnip wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »So stamDK/stamcro is better then stamplar/magDK in U24? We probably are playing different games.
If you look at the various other video's he has done(this being the final one) he has looked at there utility in all elements of PvP.
He isn't saying they are better at everything more that one is better in a group and one is better solo etc...
The rest of the video's are well worth watching.
I looked them all partially... his arguments maybe valid but ranking stamcro same as stamden and placing stamplar as 2nd weakest stamclass, while also telling that both NB are unplayable. (Rank D) This all is just wildly against what I personally see in practice, so I respectfully disagree with this rating.
on Xbox EU I'd say (at the duel spots, so 1v1) Stamcro is up there with stamden for sure, they both have that extra component of their burst the others don't.
You've got Stam DK's doing 3 button burst Dizzy -> Leap - > Exe and hitting 30k burst with high damage builds which is insane, but StamCro/Den has sub/bb to go along with it which is even stronger.
Stamplars are great at staying alive and keeping themselves out of damage but the rotation isn't so basic (i.e. potl requires setting up, unlie sub) - Although, I agree that the majority of players are on stamplars now, all they do is turtle up and stay alive in my experience and if BRP was nerfed, most of them wouldn't even exist.
Stam Nb get's blitzed on hard, sure they can stealth about and one burst 300cp zerglings but that's about it.relentless_turnip wrote: »phoenixkungfu wrote: »I do not agree with this ranking. It does not take into consideration skill that have utility. Because of this reason its bias. A example of this is to say magic nightblade is not 1 of the best large scale pvp classes due to the sucker punch skill cloak. Or magic dk isn't amazing solo. Magic dk has the best class element damage in the game fire. Fire damage equal death to vampire with25% increase in damage. Dk also has a guarantee in with the gap closer ultimate leap. The best single target cc and control in the game with a 7m fossilize. No sorry this chart is wrong and bias and simply isn't true. I like this guy content but I disagree on this one. I do however agree with magic vs stam is weak. I also agree with dlc classes are over preforming compare to other classes. In my opinion all other classes should be buff or dlc classes should be nerf. Not just dk and nightblades.
You have never played a dk.... I know this from the numerous nerf threads you make about every class except the one you play.
DK are good 1 v 1, but not solo. There damage takes too long to be effective and they have zero mobility. If you are dying to leaps on there own you need to look at you build. You could also streak, roll dodge, block and then streak away... It shouldn't be an issue for you.
I don't play a nightblade, but I can tell you they aren't in a good spot. He discussed utility of all the classes. What they add solo and to a group... Cloak obviously adds nothing to the group...
StamDK burst is insane, if yours isn't it may be your build that needs looked at.
I play magdk... It does very well and I'm not complaining. Just pheonixkungfu triggering me with his ignorance 😂
Ariades_swe wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »So stamDK/stamcro is better then stamplar/magDK in U24? We probably are playing different games.
Ghees did u even watch the videos?....
He puts stamplar in S-tier for both solo and smallscale.
MartiniDaniels wrote: »
I looked them all partially... his arguments maybe valid but ranking stamcro same as stamden and placing stamplar as 2nd weakest stamclass, while also telling that both NB are unplayable. (Rank D) This all is just wildly against what I personally see in practice, so I respectfully disagree with this rating.
I didn't say stamblade was unplayable, I said they're "A" tier solo, and in a group you would rather have literally any other stam class. AOE fear is available to everyone, so that's not something unique stamblade brings to the table, stamden, stamcro and stamplar all have more single target and aoe burst. Stamplar, stamden and stam dk all have capabilities to heal other members via class heals(spores, coag, extended). hell, my buddy ran power surge on his stam sorc and it was actually pretty solid as well.
The video posted was showing each classes viability in solo/small-scale/large-scale pvp. Solo stamblade is pretty good, in a group literally run anything else.
I think where we are having our difference in opinion is you seem to be jumping to a lot of conclusions, not only in your latest post, but in the videos.
My point in the videos for solo was that a 30k tooltip leap is as valuable in a 1 v x situation as the burst toolkit of a stamplar. I've had similar effectiveness running both specs in open world pvp. With that being said, in a dueling situation stamplar is clearly better, and I mention that in even fights, but that's not the only fights you get solo. They're on the same tier, but have different strengths.
As you get to larger scale fights where you are fighting more and more people, I prefer aoe burst over aoe damage. So for me, stam leap is a lot more valuable for busting groups than jabs are. You can cite that stamplar can run extended ritual, and that's true, but at that point, why not just run magplar instead? Stam dk has value in being the hammer ult in the group that can nuke a bunch of people while also providing aoe major fracture. Combine a vulnerability ult with a few stam dk leaps and people get deleted quickly because of how high that already high tooltip scales. Large groups have too much healing and although potl is great for single target burst, your goal in large outnumbered fights isn't to nuke one person, it's to take out a lot of people.
My highest leap this patch was a 22k leap with just rally buffed. No major fracture applied, no heavy attack. That's just how good leap is.
So in summation, as you get more and more outnumbered, stam dk has a role in group pvp by being the hardest hitting burst ultimate in the game, further amplified by other modifiers like major vulnerability. Stamplars toolkit in those large fights, which although decent, blend too much with what magplar already provides and doesn't give it as defined of a role. Solo they are clearly s tier and one of the best dueling specs in the game, but that's not what this video was attempting to identify.
I agree, but stamplar’s a little underrated by a lot of people in group fights, you just have to hybrid a bit. It’s true it’s discouraging that you’ll feel a magplar can do everything better but a lot of good abilities scale with the highest offensive stats.
Nova for example uses the caster’s base tooltip damage, then the synergizer’s harmony and pen. When people cry about crazy high Novas it’s usually from a Stamplar.
I guess I’m saying you can make it work and the Templar class as a whole has really good group abilities making them shine in a lot of situations.
I agree, but stamplar’s a little underrated by a lot of people in group fights, you just have to hybrid a bit. It’s true it’s discouraging that you’ll feel a magplar can do everything better but a lot of good abilities scale with the highest offensive stats.
Nova for example uses the caster’s base tooltip damage, then the synergizer’s harmony and pen. When people cry about crazy high Novas it’s usually from a Stamplar.
I guess I’m saying you can make it work and the Templar class as a whole has really good group abilities making them shine in a lot of situations.
I agree, nova is great and stamplar can scale their damage very high. However, I can also scale spell damage high on a magplar due to minor sorcery. I can run a bomb setup on a magplar that has over 6k spell damage and can get almost a 29k synergy tooltip fully buffed, as well as having access to breath of life and proximity detonation.
It's not that stamplar is necessarily bad in a group, it's just that magplar is better and stamplar doesn't have that defined role. I think you could scale stamplar a bit higher in group play due to nova synergy, that's a good point. That was my reasoning for why I didn't though.
I think where we are having our difference in opinion is you seem to be jumping to a lot of conclusions, not only in your latest post, but in the videos.
My point in the videos for solo was that a 30k tooltip leap is as valuable in a 1 v x situation as the burst toolkit of a stamplar. I've had similar effectiveness running both specs in open world pvp. With that being said, in a dueling situation stamplar is clearly better, and I mention that in even fights, but that's not the only fights you get solo. They're on the same tier, but have different strengths.
As you get to larger scale fights where you are fighting more and more people, I prefer aoe burst over aoe damage. So for me, stam leap is a lot more valuable for busting groups than jabs are. You can cite that stamplar can run extended ritual, and that's true, but at that point, why not just run magplar instead? Stam dk has value in being the hammer ult in the group that can nuke a bunch of people while also providing aoe major fracture. Combine a vulnerability ult with a few stam dk leaps and people get deleted quickly because of how high that already high tooltip scales. Large groups have too much healing and although potl is great for single target burst, your goal in large outnumbered fights isn't to nuke one person, it's to take out a lot of people.
My highest leap this patch was a 22k leap with just rally buffed. No major fracture applied, no heavy attack. That's just how good leap is.
So in summation, as you get more and more outnumbered, stam dk has a role in group pvp by being the hardest hitting burst ultimate in the game, further amplified by other modifiers like major vulnerability. Stamplars toolkit in those large fights, which although decent, blend too much with what magplar already provides and doesn't give it as defined of a role. Solo they are clearly s tier and one of the best dueling specs in the game, but that's not what this video was attempting to identify.
I feel like magblades should be rated a bit higher for solo play. As someone said the tool kit isnt very flexible, so you do have to specialise, but at least on my magblade there is no one i cant 1v1 except a handful of sorcs and another specific nightblade on xbox who is just outright better then i am. And i can still harass large groups pretty effectively if i play slow and conservatively (nothing better then keeping an entire zerg busy for 20 minutes) youll run into issues against specific group comps with lots of heals, but on the whole i think they perform quite well in solo, perhaps even better than stamblade by merit of infini cloak and class major evasion and 4 second snare removal. I dont think they are necessarily better then other classes but people definitely seem to be ranking them far too low for solo play.
MartiniDaniels wrote: »
So I can't see how stamplar and stamDK can be in same solo S-tier, when stamplar has much better spammable+delayed burst ability, while DK should rely only on dizzy and pray that opponent will make mistake, i.e. forgets to heal/dodge or will start running out of resources.
I feel like magblades should be rated a bit higher for solo play. As someone said the tool kit isnt very flexible, so you do have to specialise, but at least on my magblade there is no one i cant 1v1 except a handful of sorcs and another specific nightblade on xbox who is just outright better then i am. And i can still harass large groups pretty effectively if i play slow and conservatively (nothing better then keeping an entire zerg busy for 20 minutes) youll run into issues against specific group comps with lots of heals, but on the whole i think they perform quite well in solo, perhaps even better than stamblade by merit of infini cloak and class major evasion and 4 second snare removal. I dont think they are necessarily better then other classes but people definitely seem to be ranking them far too low for solo play.
I finally got around to watching all the videos, good job! I agree with almost all of it.
You mentioned you don’t do larger scale but you have the gist of it.
Only thing you didn’t mention is Cleanse. Cleanse is really important to larger groups, removing negative effects is crazy important. The reason why this is sorta important is this is the role support magsorcs traditionally fill. Dark conversion + high recovery makes magsorcs the best at filling this role.
Still wouldn’t put them as S, but close. I’d put them a little higher then magblade at A. Maybe magblade A- but that feels like it’s splitting hairs, magblade tankiness for bombing in a proper spec is good.
I’m not sure if it makes sense to display class successes or failures in this way. My reasoning is my own experience of gravitating to a particular playstyle & not caring about others. Meaning that to a solo player, they don’t care about large scale play, it doesn’t matter to them, so it’s almost considered unfair to say they have a higher or lower overall score because of a playstyle that doesn’t matter to them.
Maybe I can give a sort of example.
I believe magblade was voted high in group play because of its healer build currently.
That has been stated by many in the magblade community as the best way to play the class for the last 2 or so patches.
Currently, I don’t believe there is any benefit to running a so called “magblade bomber with proxy/Destro ult”, over any other magic classes with those same skills!
Therefore if I want to play a stealthy magicka class & be good in a team, I feel the chart shows a misconception that isn’t specified, ie... that I would end up being a healer to be most effective rather than a good damage contributor.
phoenixkungfu wrote: »I do not agree with this ranking. It does not take into consideration skill that have utility. Because of this reason its bias. A example of this is to say magic nightblade is not 1 of the best large scale pvp classes due to the sucker punch skill cloak. Or magic dk isn't amazing solo. Magic dk has the best class element damage in the game fire. Fire damage equal death to vampire with25% increase in damage. Dk also has a guarantee in with the gap closer ultimate leap. The best single target cc and control in the game with a 7m fossilize. No sorry this chart is wrong and bias and simply isn't true. I like this guy content but I disagree on this one. I do however agree with magic vs stam is weak. I also agree with dlc classes are over preforming compare to other classes. In my opinion all other classes should be buff or dlc classes should be nerf. Not just dk and nightblades.