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PvP Class Ranking Isth3reno1else

  • usmguy1234
    usmguy1234
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    So stamDK/stamcro is better then stamplar/magDK in U24? We probably are playing different games.

    Ghees did u even checked the end of each videos....
    He puts stamplar in S-tier for both solo and smallscale.
    Way above mdk.

    Exactly and when it comes to largescale, it's utility is completely overshadowed by magplar. All stam is strong in solo open word and most have decent enough utility to be worthy of a niche spot in small groups, though some are punished for their lack of utility and offheals as a benefit to their group. Largescale, magicka wins hands down no contest. The name of the game is playing to your spec's strengths. There's no need for magicka players to cry nerf to stamina players because they wandered from their group and got nuked. On the opposite side of the coin, stamina players don't need to cry when they can't nuke a magicka ball group solo.
    Zaghigoth- Orc Stamplar
    Soul Razor- Altmer Magsorc
    Les Drago- Redguard Stamdk
    Eirius- Altmer Magdk
    Stormifeth- Altmer Magplar

    Disclaimer: My comments are a little sarcasm mixed with truth. If you can't handle that don't respond to me.

  • FrankonPC
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    I looked them all partially... his arguments maybe valid but ranking stamcro same as stamden and placing stamplar as 2nd weakest stamclass, while also telling that both NB are unplayable. (Rank D) This all is just wildly against what I personally see in practice, so I respectfully disagree with this rating.

    I didn't say stamblade was unplayable, I said they're "A" tier solo, and in a group you would rather have literally any other stam class. AOE fear is available to everyone, so that's not something unique stamblade brings to the table, stamden, stamcro and stamplar all have more single target and aoe burst. Stamplar, stamden and stam dk all have capabilities to heal other members via class heals(spores, coag, extended). hell, my buddy ran power surge on his stam sorc and it was actually pretty solid as well.

    The video posted was showing each classes viability in solo/small-scale/large-scale pvp. Solo stamblade is pretty good, in a group literally run anything else.
  • Neoauspex
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    Great video, only thing I'll point out is that the Stam mechanic discussed in comparison to Proxy det does exist as the Masters 2h. Obviously it's way more convenient as a skill choice than a gear choice, but access to both might create it's own imbalance issue.
  • Iskiab
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    Neoauspex wrote: »
    Great video, only thing I'll point out is that the Stam mechanic discussed in comparison to Proxy det does exist as the Masters 2h. Obviously it's way more convenient as a skill choice than a gear choice, but access to both might create it's own imbalance issue.

    Cleave is a little undertuned. Some people tried it in large scale and found it meh.

    It looks like one of those abilities that’s been toned down with the master’s weapon in mind. So with the master’s weapon it’s decent, but everything else suffers because the opportunity cost is too high.
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  • BuildMan
    BuildMan
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    This is gonna hurt stamden in the long run I'm calling it now. Either nerfed to ground or everything buffed to outperform. (Probably nerfing as it's the easiest solution).
    PSN: YourACasul
    For the Covenant!
    CP 1040 Breton Magicka Warden Healer - Flawless Conqueror
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    CP 121 Breton Magicka Dragonknight
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  • Strider__Roshin
    Strider__Roshin
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    Interesting and informing. As someone that hasn't played in 6-7 months this informed me about the current balance of the game. Thanks.
  • Ragnarock41
    Ragnarock41
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    Iskiab wrote: »
    Neoauspex wrote: »
    Great video, only thing I'll point out is that the Stam mechanic discussed in comparison to Proxy det does exist as the Masters 2h. Obviously it's way more convenient as a skill choice than a gear choice, but access to both might create it's own imbalance issue.

    Cleave is a little undertuned. Some people tried it in large scale and found it meh.

    It looks like one of those abilities that’s been toned down with the master’s weapon in mind. So with the master’s weapon it’s decent, but everything else suffers because the opportunity cost is too high.

    Cleave+master 2h is one of those things that see more attention on forums than actual usage in game. It has potential to be good but Its just not there.
  • BNOC
    BNOC
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    BNOC wrote: »
    So stamDK/stamcro is better then stamplar/magDK in U24? We probably are playing different games.

    If you look at the various other video's he has done(this being the final one) he has looked at there utility in all elements of PvP.

    He isn't saying they are better at everything more that one is better in a group and one is better solo etc...
    The rest of the video's are well worth watching.

    I looked them all partially... his arguments maybe valid but ranking stamcro same as stamden and placing stamplar as 2nd weakest stamclass, while also telling that both NB are unplayable. (Rank D) This all is just wildly against what I personally see in practice, so I respectfully disagree with this rating.

    on Xbox EU I'd say (at the duel spots, so 1v1) Stamcro is up there with stamden for sure, they both have that extra component of their burst the others don't.

    You've got Stam DK's doing 3 button burst Dizzy -> Leap - > Exe and hitting 30k burst with high damage builds which is insane, but StamCro/Den has sub/bb to go along with it which is even stronger.

    Stamplars are great at staying alive and keeping themselves out of damage but the rotation isn't so basic (i.e. potl requires setting up, unlie sub) - Although, I agree that the majority of players are on stamplars now, all they do is turtle up and stay alive in my experience and if BRP was nerfed, most of them wouldn't even exist.

    Stam Nb get's blitzed on hard, sure they can stealth about and one burst 300cp zerglings but that's about it.
    I do not agree with this ranking. It does not take into consideration skill that have utility. Because of this reason its bias. A example of this is to say magic nightblade is not 1 of the best large scale pvp classes due to the sucker punch skill cloak. Or magic dk isn't amazing solo. Magic dk has the best class element damage in the game fire. Fire damage equal death to vampire with25% increase in damage. Dk also has a guarantee in with the gap closer ultimate leap. The best single target cc and control in the game with a 7m fossilize. No sorry this chart is wrong and bias and simply isn't true. I like this guy content but I disagree on this one. I do however agree with magic vs stam is weak. I also agree with dlc classes are over preforming compare to other classes. In my opinion all other classes should be buff or dlc classes should be nerf. Not just dk and nightblades.

    You have never played a dk.... I know this from the numerous nerf threads you make about every class except the one you play.

    DK are good 1 v 1, but not solo. There damage takes too long to be effective and they have zero mobility. If you are dying to leaps on there own you need to look at you build. You could also streak, roll dodge, block and then streak away... It shouldn't be an issue for you.

    I don't play a nightblade, but I can tell you they aren't in a good spot. He discussed utility of all the classes. What they add solo and to a group... Cloak obviously adds nothing to the group...

    StamDK burst is insane, if yours isn't it may be your build that needs looked at.

    I play magdk... It does very well and I'm not complaining. Just pheonixkungfu triggering me with his ignorance 😂

    Oh I didn't see that, fair enough, that dudes lost the plot.
    vMSA - Magplar - Xbox EU - 15/11/16
    578,000 - 36 Minutes 58 Seconds (Top 2 World?)

    vMSA - Magplar - Xbox NA
    569,000 - 40 minutes (350CP, Non optimised runs)
  • MartiniDaniels
    MartiniDaniels
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    So stamDK/stamcro is better then stamplar/magDK in U24? We probably are playing different games.

    Ghees did u even watch the videos?....
    He puts stamplar in S-tier for both solo and smallscale.

    Yes, but somehow in summary video stamplar is 2nd worst, while it is obvious stamplar is very good in this patch... I agree with his arguments, I don't agree with final rankings. And believe me majority of people look only at final results. According to this ranking, stamDK and stamcro are fine. No, they are not fine, they need more juice.
    If you compare stamplar and stamDK, stamDK has fossilize with helping hands+battle roar, while stamplar have jabs, potl and TS. I may say onslaught burst on stamDK is more reliable, but damage potential on stamplar is much higher. Higher crit chance, higher crit damage, better spammable, additional burst damage from POTL.. stamplar downside here is that TS is blockable and Turn evil unreliable with all the lag, so fossilize->onslaught on stamDK is almost guaranteed, while on stamplar is not. But if we are talking about fighting of 2 solo usually pretty tanky players, higher damage potential is better, what's the point of your guaranteed burst if another player survives it?
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  • MartiniDaniels
    MartiniDaniels
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    FrankonPC wrote: »

    I looked them all partially... his arguments maybe valid but ranking stamcro same as stamden and placing stamplar as 2nd weakest stamclass, while also telling that both NB are unplayable. (Rank D) This all is just wildly against what I personally see in practice, so I respectfully disagree with this rating.

    I didn't say stamblade was unplayable, I said they're "A" tier solo, and in a group you would rather have literally any other stam class. AOE fear is available to everyone, so that's not something unique stamblade brings to the table, stamden, stamcro and stamplar all have more single target and aoe burst. Stamplar, stamden and stam dk all have capabilities to heal other members via class heals(spores, coag, extended). hell, my buddy ran power surge on his stam sorc and it was actually pretty solid as well.

    The video posted was showing each classes viability in solo/small-scale/large-scale pvp. Solo stamblade is pretty good, in a group literally run anything else.

    Yes, I agree with all that. But in video linked by topic starter, "final rating based on solo, smallscale, and large groups":
    Stamden - 4.33
    Stamcro - 4.22
    StamDK - 3.78
    Stamsorc - 3.67
    Stamplar - 3.44
    StamNB - 2.00

    How I see it in Cyrodiil (and many players see it that way):
    Best in U24 - stamplar, stamden. I don't see how stamden is better then stamplar at all. Shalk burst is telegraphed and easily avoided if you have enough stamina to dodge it each time. Avoiding high dps jabs is much more complex.
    Okay classes, but worse then first 2 - stamcro, stamDK, stamsorc. They all do literally the same with some class specifics here and there...
    Needs buff or at least removal of cast time on incap - stamblade. I agree that NB needs buff, it is very rare in U24 to meet stamNB who can be a threat. He should be very fast and aggressive glass cannon, otherwise it is just potato slayer.

    I don't see how stamDK can be more useful to group then stamplar. Stamplar has remembrance + cleanse. What stamDK has useful to group? Ability to catch particular player with fossilize so group can burst him?

    Also you write that stamDK can heal with "coag". Obviously it is mistype for "cauterize". I don't imply anything, but this mistype means you don't play stamDK a lot. So for me it looks like everybody looks on those 1vX videos where stamDKs are slaying ton of randoms with frequent leaps and consider class is fine and powerful after that. Try leaping on somebody who actually fights or uses cc-immunity pots. He will simply block and your burst will be completely negated. I found much better success with onslaught then leap if we talk about fighting tough players.

    Ok, I watched your stamDK video, you are leaping on "former empress" dealing 18k leap crit! 18k! I have no idea what CP/gear that "former empress" should be running to receive such a crit. You didn't even heavy attacked "her" for follow-up boost. You leaped not in close range, so any competent player will block that leap. She probably got some heavy de-sync or lag or this is just utter potato. 90% of video consists of smallscale leaping on random squishes. Try leaping on solo fresh PVP-er in 1v1 scenario and it simply won't work. Running with 2-3 friends against "zerglings" is not a solo play. Solo is solo, when you are alone and outnumbered or 1v1. Smallscale vs channeled scattered pugs is not "outnumbered solo play". So I don't see how stamDK can be put on same level as stamplar for soloplay.


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  • FrankonPC
    FrankonPC
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    I think where we are having our difference in opinion is you seem to be jumping to a lot of conclusions, not only in your latest post, but in the videos.

    My point in the videos for solo was that a 30k tooltip leap is as valuable in a 1 v x situation as the burst toolkit of a stamplar. I've had similar effectiveness running both specs in open world pvp. With that being said, in a dueling situation stamplar is clearly better, and I mention that in even fights, but that's not the only fights you get solo. They're on the same tier, but have different strengths.

    As you get to larger scale fights where you are fighting more and more people, I prefer aoe burst over aoe damage. So for me, stam leap is a lot more valuable for busting groups than jabs are. You can cite that stamplar can run extended ritual, and that's true, but at that point, why not just run magplar instead? Stam dk has value in being the hammer ult in the group that can nuke a bunch of people while also providing aoe major fracture. Combine a vulnerability ult with a few stam dk leaps and people get deleted quickly because of how high that already high tooltip scales. Large groups have too much healing and although potl is great for single target burst, your goal in large outnumbered fights isn't to nuke one person, it's to take out a lot of people.

    My highest leap this patch was a 22k leap with just rally buffed. No major fracture applied, no heavy attack. That's just how good leap is.

    So in summation, as you get more and more outnumbered, stam dk has a role in group pvp by being the hardest hitting burst ultimate in the game, further amplified by other modifiers like major vulnerability. Stamplars toolkit in those large fights, which although decent, blend too much with what magplar already provides and doesn't give it as defined of a role. Solo they are clearly s tier and one of the best dueling specs in the game, but that's not what this video was attempting to identify.

  • FrankonPC
    FrankonPC
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    Also,
    You're looking at the graphs wrong. It's not a graph of "which class is best". It's a graph of "which classes are the most versatile in pvp". Giving a stamplar a lower grade than stamden is not saying that they're worse than them, it's saying that they're less flexible. I even say in the video if you only play solo or duel, this video means nothing.

    If I hop on a stamden, due to their toolkit I will have a good time solo, in a small group, or in large scale pvp.
    If I hop on a mag sorc, same thing. I'm not saying these classes are overpowered or over-performing. All I am saying is that regardless of which fights I choose to get into, I have tools in my kit to be effective.

    If I hop on a magblade, as a bomber I'll do well in large scale fights, but anywhere else it will be boring/ineffective. As a stamblade I'll be good solo, but in a group I could run any class to help the group more. Their toolkit isn't as flexible.

  • Iskiab
    Iskiab
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    FrankonPC wrote: »
    I think where we are having our difference in opinion is you seem to be jumping to a lot of conclusions, not only in your latest post, but in the videos.

    My point in the videos for solo was that a 30k tooltip leap is as valuable in a 1 v x situation as the burst toolkit of a stamplar. I've had similar effectiveness running both specs in open world pvp. With that being said, in a dueling situation stamplar is clearly better, and I mention that in even fights, but that's not the only fights you get solo. They're on the same tier, but have different strengths.

    As you get to larger scale fights where you are fighting more and more people, I prefer aoe burst over aoe damage. So for me, stam leap is a lot more valuable for busting groups than jabs are. You can cite that stamplar can run extended ritual, and that's true, but at that point, why not just run magplar instead? Stam dk has value in being the hammer ult in the group that can nuke a bunch of people while also providing aoe major fracture. Combine a vulnerability ult with a few stam dk leaps and people get deleted quickly because of how high that already high tooltip scales. Large groups have too much healing and although potl is great for single target burst, your goal in large outnumbered fights isn't to nuke one person, it's to take out a lot of people.

    My highest leap this patch was a 22k leap with just rally buffed. No major fracture applied, no heavy attack. That's just how good leap is.

    So in summation, as you get more and more outnumbered, stam dk has a role in group pvp by being the hardest hitting burst ultimate in the game, further amplified by other modifiers like major vulnerability. Stamplars toolkit in those large fights, which although decent, blend too much with what magplar already provides and doesn't give it as defined of a role. Solo they are clearly s tier and one of the best dueling specs in the game, but that's not what this video was attempting to identify.

    I agree, but stamplar’s a little underrated by a lot of people in group fights, you just have to hybrid a bit. It’s true it’s discouraging that you’ll feel a magplar can do everything better but a lot of good abilities scale with the highest offensive stats.

    Nova for example uses the caster’s base tooltip damage, then the synergizer’s harmony and pen. When people cry about crazy high Novas it’s usually from a Stamplar.

    I guess I’m saying you can make it work and the Templar class as a whole has really good group abilities making them shine in a lot of situations.
    Edited by Iskiab on January 17, 2020 1:54PM
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  • Joy_Division
    Joy_Division
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    For larger scale fights, Stamdens are way better than Stamplars and it's not even close.
    "Dragon leap is NOT overperforming. You are underperforming." - ZarkingFrued

    Joy's Old but still useful for newer players guide for beating VMA

  • FrankonPC
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    I agree, but stamplar’s a little underrated by a lot of people in group fights, you just have to hybrid a bit. It’s true it’s discouraging that you’ll feel a magplar can do everything better but a lot of good abilities scale with the highest offensive stats.

    Nova for example uses the caster’s base tooltip damage, then the synergizer’s harmony and pen. When people cry about crazy high Novas it’s usually from a Stamplar.

    I guess I’m saying you can make it work and the Templar class as a whole has really good group abilities making them shine in a lot of situations.

    I agree, nova is great and stamplar can scale their damage very high. However, I can also scale spell damage high on a magplar due to minor sorcery. I can run a bomb setup on a magplar that has over 6k spell damage and can get almost a 29k synergy tooltip fully buffed, as well as having access to breath of life and proximity detonation.

    It's not that stamplar is necessarily bad in a group, it's just that magplar is better and stamplar doesn't have that defined role. I think you could scale stamplar a bit higher in group play due to nova synergy, that's a good point. That was my reasoning for why I didn't though.
    Edited by FrankonPC on January 17, 2020 3:19PM
  • Iskiab
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    FrankonPC wrote: »

    I agree, but stamplar’s a little underrated by a lot of people in group fights, you just have to hybrid a bit. It’s true it’s discouraging that you’ll feel a magplar can do everything better but a lot of good abilities scale with the highest offensive stats.

    Nova for example uses the caster’s base tooltip damage, then the synergizer’s harmony and pen. When people cry about crazy high Novas it’s usually from a Stamplar.

    I guess I’m saying you can make it work and the Templar class as a whole has really good group abilities making them shine in a lot of situations.

    I agree, nova is great and stamplar can scale their damage very high. However, I can also scale spell damage high on a magplar due to minor sorcery. I can run a bomb setup on a magplar that has over 6k spell damage and can get almost a 29k synergy tooltip fully buffed, as well as having access to breath of life and proximity detonation.

    It's not that stamplar is necessarily bad in a group, it's just that magplar is better and stamplar doesn't have that defined role. I think you could scale stamplar a bit higher in group play due to nova synergy, that's a good point. That was my reasoning for why I didn't though.

    Yea, I agree. I noticed post patch performance was a lot better in Cyro. If onslaught works reliably that will help stam a lot, but still think some sort of stam group AoE damage ability like det would be good.

    I haven’t theorycrafted the exact highest possible burst combo, but I’m pretty sure a Nova bomb with a Necro damage boost, etc... on someone with 3x harmony using onslaught is the highest possible damage in game. Though onslaught isn’t limited to stam.
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  • Iskiab
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    I finally got around to watching all the videos, good job! I agree with almost all of it.

    You mentioned you don’t do larger scale but you have the gist of it.

    Only thing you didn’t mention is Cleanse. Cleanse is really important to larger groups, removing negative effects is crazy important. The reason why this is sorta important is this is the role support magsorcs traditionally fill. Dark conversion + high recovery makes magsorcs the best at filling this role.

    Still wouldn’t put them as S, but close. I’d put them a little higher then magblade at A. Maybe magblade A- but that feels like it’s splitting hairs, magblade tankiness for bombing in a proper spec is good.
    Edited by Iskiab on January 17, 2020 10:04PM
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  • MartiniDaniels
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    FrankonPC wrote: »
    I think where we are having our difference in opinion is you seem to be jumping to a lot of conclusions, not only in your latest post, but in the videos.

    My point in the videos for solo was that a 30k tooltip leap is as valuable in a 1 v x situation as the burst toolkit of a stamplar. I've had similar effectiveness running both specs in open world pvp. With that being said, in a dueling situation stamplar is clearly better, and I mention that in even fights, but that's not the only fights you get solo. They're on the same tier, but have different strengths.

    As you get to larger scale fights where you are fighting more and more people, I prefer aoe burst over aoe damage. So for me, stam leap is a lot more valuable for busting groups than jabs are. You can cite that stamplar can run extended ritual, and that's true, but at that point, why not just run magplar instead? Stam dk has value in being the hammer ult in the group that can nuke a bunch of people while also providing aoe major fracture. Combine a vulnerability ult with a few stam dk leaps and people get deleted quickly because of how high that already high tooltip scales. Large groups have too much healing and although potl is great for single target burst, your goal in large outnumbered fights isn't to nuke one person, it's to take out a lot of people.

    My highest leap this patch was a 22k leap with just rally buffed. No major fracture applied, no heavy attack. That's just how good leap is.

    So in summation, as you get more and more outnumbered, stam dk has a role in group pvp by being the hardest hitting burst ultimate in the game, further amplified by other modifiers like major vulnerability. Stamplars toolkit in those large fights, which although decent, blend too much with what magplar already provides and doesn't give it as defined of a role. Solo they are clearly s tier and one of the best dueling specs in the game, but that's not what this video was attempting to identify.

    For me solo play means your build should be able to kill solo almost anybody of comparable skill, with exception of some troll tanky builds. 90% of more or less skilled players you meet in PC EU will have decent resistances, heals and sustain. They will shrug off your leap if you'll use it like in your video. You need off-balance, noxious, put enemy health at 50-60% before follow up heavy attack into leap/onslaught and execute. I think you know all this better then me.
    Key problem of DK is to put target which keeps heals/shield up to those 50-60%. For other classes this HP requirement is lower, closer to 70%, because they have delayed burst ability. But DK doesn't have it, dots are nerfed, only venomous claw is dealing notable damage at last ticks... but half of the classes will cleanse that claw before those last ticks...

    So I can't see how stamplar and stamDK can be in same solo S-tier, when stamplar has much better spammable+delayed burst ability, while DK should rely only on dizzy and pray that opponent will make mistake, i.e. forgets to heal/dodge or will start running out of resources.

    About blastbones, shalks... average experienced PVP-er will dodge/los/heal/block/cc 80% of those. Which means you need to be ready to deliver your burst exactly when shalks/blastbones will finally hit hard and pray that you won't be cc'd in that moment and your enemy won't have cc-immunity because without stun he will just roll-dodge into vigor/shield/mist before your onslaught/DBoS will land. While PoTL will hit no matter what. And jabs are notably better then dizzy. Ok, warden has a lot of buffs which stamplar doesn't have, that's why they are balanced and comparable against each other. Stamplar has better burst, stamden has better buffs/utility.

    Stamcro doesn't have reliable burst, stamcro doesn't have warden's buff pack. How stamcro happened to be in same top tier for solo play?

    Stamsorc in U24 is slightly better then stamDK and stamcro because he has daggers and good sorc's offensive passives, but he still relies on dizzy, daggers are worse then potl and stamsorc don't have such great buffs/utility as warden. Oh, and of course stamsorc has streak.

    StamNB spammable is not better then dizzy and bow porc requires separate GCD and it is projectile, and projectiles are worst type of attacks in the PVP. Half of them are auto-dodged/los'd, and of course second most popular class in U24 spams shimmering shield at first sign of ranged pressure. But stamblade has cloak+shade.
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  • OWLTHEMAD
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    I feel like magblades should be rated a bit higher for solo play. As someone said the tool kit isnt very flexible, so you do have to specialise, but at least on my magblade there is no one i cant 1v1 except a handful of sorcs and another specific nightblade on xbox who is just outright better then i am. And i can still harass large groups pretty effectively if i play slow and conservatively (nothing better then keeping an entire zerg busy for 20 minutes) youll run into issues against specific group comps with lots of heals, but on the whole i think they perform quite well in solo, perhaps even better than stamblade by merit of infini cloak and class major evasion and 4 second snare removal. I dont think they are necessarily better then other classes but people definitely seem to be ranking them far too low for solo play.
  • Iskiab
    Iskiab
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    OWLTHEMAD wrote: »
    I feel like magblades should be rated a bit higher for solo play. As someone said the tool kit isnt very flexible, so you do have to specialise, but at least on my magblade there is no one i cant 1v1 except a handful of sorcs and another specific nightblade on xbox who is just outright better then i am. And i can still harass large groups pretty effectively if i play slow and conservatively (nothing better then keeping an entire zerg busy for 20 minutes) youll run into issues against specific group comps with lots of heals, but on the whole i think they perform quite well in solo, perhaps even better than stamblade by merit of infini cloak and class major evasion and 4 second snare removal. I dont think they are necessarily better then other classes but people definitely seem to be ranking them far too low for solo play.

    Issue is moreso that there a ways to build so a magblade has no chance of killing you. Then you can ignore them.

    On my magplar dps build I’m glassy and have lost 1v1 to a magblade using meteor as a vampire, but on that same toon as a healer I don’t see magblades as a threat. Even solo if I’m running to a keep a stamblade or magblade jumping me isn’t a threat, it makes them hard to rank.

    On one hand they’re good at trolling multiple people in a tower solo and maybe catching some people off guard and taking them out, on another there are a lot of specs you’ll never be able to kill and can ignore you.

    Magblades can play a good game of tower trolling, but people have to be willing to play.
    Edited by Iskiab on January 18, 2020 2:47AM
    Looking for any guildies I used to play with:
    Havoc Warhammer - Alair
    LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
    Condemned and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
    Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten
  • FrankonPC
    FrankonPC
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    So I can't see how stamplar and stamDK can be in same solo S-tier, when stamplar has much better spammable+delayed burst ability, while DK should rely only on dizzy and pray that opponent will make mistake, i.e. forgets to heal/dodge or will start running out of resources.

    As I said, if it was dueling specs they would be in different tiers. You're not just fighting 1 v 1 when you're solo in open world pvp. Sometimes you're riding to a keep and run across an 8 man group. Now, you could individually burst them all down, but aoe noxious that provides fracture(and good damage) + leap is very, very valuable for whittling the field down and bursting a few people quickly. How i have the ranks factor in the smaller scale 1 v 1s, and largely outnumbered 1 v x's, and in the latter leap is amazing.

    If I provided a dueling list, the class tiers would be a lot different, which is where we differ.

    The same thing goes with your stamden comparison. Not as good for dueling because burst is predictable and easy to avoid. However, when you're in a 5 man group and you're running into a tower with 24 people chasing after you, that aoe sub is a lot more valuable than a potl+ jabs.
  • FrankonPC
    FrankonPC
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    OWLTHEMAD wrote: »
    I feel like magblades should be rated a bit higher for solo play. As someone said the tool kit isnt very flexible, so you do have to specialise, but at least on my magblade there is no one i cant 1v1 except a handful of sorcs and another specific nightblade on xbox who is just outright better then i am. And i can still harass large groups pretty effectively if i play slow and conservatively (nothing better then keeping an entire zerg busy for 20 minutes) youll run into issues against specific group comps with lots of heals, but on the whole i think they perform quite well in solo, perhaps even better than stamblade by merit of infini cloak and class major evasion and 4 second snare removal. I dont think they are necessarily better then other classes but people definitely seem to be ranking them far too low for solo play.

    So from my experience, any group you can kill solo on a magblade, you can do the same on any other class but better. The burst is very delayed to where you currently have a hard time securing kills vs high healing opponents.

    As I say in my video, no class is currently "bad" solo. I think my lowest tier solo is C, which is ok, but there's no class I think it's currently better than.
    Edited by FrankonPC on January 18, 2020 8:40AM
  • kaithuzar
    kaithuzar
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    I’m not sure if it makes sense to display class successes or failures in this way. My reasoning is my own experience of gravitating to a particular playstyle & not caring about others. Meaning that to a solo player, they don’t care about large scale play, it doesn’t matter to them, so it’s almost considered unfair to say they have a higher or lower overall score because of a playstyle that doesn’t matter to them.

    Maybe I can give a sort of example.
    I believe magblade was voted high in group play because of its healer build currently.
    That has been stated by many in the magblade community as the best way to play the class for the last 2 or so patches.

    Currently, I don’t believe there is any benefit to running a so called “magblade bomber with proxy/Destro ult”, over any other magic classes with those same skills!

    Therefore if I want to play a stealthy magicka class & be good in a team, I feel the chart shows a misconception that isn’t specified, ie... that I would end up being a healer to be most effective rather than a good damage contributor.
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  • FrankonPC
    FrankonPC
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    I mean, i don't disagree with your premise, but I play just about everything.

    I'm attempting to provide my rankings from my experience fighting against and fighting with all different classes. It's not perfect, and people will disagree...but I am not coming from a solo perspective attempting to gauge what large scale and medium scale players are doing.

    I'm looking at what I would run in a 4-6 man group to be most effective.

    As far as magblade goes, they're very niche in large scale pvp. I don't think their healing capabilities are as good as a magden or magplar, so their group utility is diminished because those are better. They do have value in an unsuspecting proxy/soul tether.

    One of my buddies and I were x'ing a large group a few weeks ago and about 12 of them jumped on my buddy. They got insta nuked by one bomber because they didn't see it coming. other classes can run proxy, but nobody else can come in with the surprise burst in the same way. That's why i scale them there.
  • FrankonPC
    FrankonPC
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    Iskiab wrote: »
    I finally got around to watching all the videos, good job! I agree with almost all of it.

    You mentioned you don’t do larger scale but you have the gist of it.

    Only thing you didn’t mention is Cleanse. Cleanse is really important to larger groups, removing negative effects is crazy important. The reason why this is sorta important is this is the role support magsorcs traditionally fill. Dark conversion + high recovery makes magsorcs the best at filling this role.

    Still wouldn’t put them as S, but close. I’d put them a little higher then magblade at A. Maybe magblade A- but that feels like it’s splitting hairs, magblade tankiness for bombing in a proper spec is good.

    Thanks! and no, I didn't factor in purge. I honestly don't see it as much in large scale groups like I used to. It's very valuable and using it on a mag sorc makes a lot of sense.
  • Iskiab
    Iskiab
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    kaithuzar wrote: »
    I’m not sure if it makes sense to display class successes or failures in this way. My reasoning is my own experience of gravitating to a particular playstyle & not caring about others. Meaning that to a solo player, they don’t care about large scale play, it doesn’t matter to them, so it’s almost considered unfair to say they have a higher or lower overall score because of a playstyle that doesn’t matter to them.

    Maybe I can give a sort of example.
    I believe magblade was voted high in group play because of its healer build currently.
    That has been stated by many in the magblade community as the best way to play the class for the last 2 or so patches.

    Currently, I don’t believe there is any benefit to running a so called “magblade bomber with proxy/Destro ult”, over any other magic classes with those same skills!

    Therefore if I want to play a stealthy magicka class & be good in a team, I feel the chart shows a misconception that isn’t specified, ie... that I would end up being a healer to be most effective rather than a good damage contributor.

    In large scale I used to play a magblade healer. They’re a lot weaker then it used to be.

    In large scale Magblade damage dealers are good moreso because of the merciless mitigation stacks and dark cloak. They can be tankier than other classes and still pack a punch, and with dedicated healers they cover magblade’s healing weakness. It’s purely because of tanking abilities. Plus they can run 3x harmony and be a harmony consumer too but not giver, where the high crit and crit mod matters.

    For healing the magblade toolkit isn’t good in large scale and the main magblade healing tools: cleanse and healing springs were nerfed. After the healing springs nerf they only really buffed Templar and Warden to compensate so NB is more relatively behind, that’s why I switched to magplar. I got sick of my own voice complaining when the easiest solution was to switch classes.

    Cleanse is still one of the best pvp heals in the game, don’t get me wrong, it’s just not stupid OP anymore, but Sorcs, Templars and Wardens have better sustain.

    P.S. - I love this screen shot so I thought I’d share it again. Things about pvp healing is a lot of players are really stuck in their ways and don’t experiment, so they sorta suck. It’s worse amongst healers. A good pvp healer can quadruple another healer while doing a lot more.

    https://imgur.com/v84hDVk

    Plus yea, this is a screenshot of an over 200k cleanse heal from right after the patch before they fixed it. Plus yes, a ton of pvp healers were bad and didn’t even use it because all they know is pve. For a bit it cleansed everyone in the group of 3 effects, then they reduced it to just 6, then they halved the healing. I was doing 200k cast heals and at the time time had to fight with people to even try it.

    Point is, if someone’s stuck in their ways or bad, they aren’t going to adapt. That’s why class balance is so messed up, feedback has been mostly garbage by players stuck in their specs from a year ago.
    Edited by Iskiab on January 18, 2020 10:09PM
    Looking for any guildies I used to play with:
    Havoc Warhammer - Alair
    LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
    Condemned and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
    Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten
  • lucky_Sage
    lucky_Sage
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    I think this is a pretty good summary. somethings don't agree with but a very good job
    DC PC NA
    Magdk - main
    Stamcro - alt

    AD PS4 NA -retired (PC runs way better to play on console)
    magdk
    magblade
    stamplar
    magden
    magsorc

  • lucky_Sage
    lucky_Sage
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    I do not agree with this ranking. It does not take into consideration skill that have utility. Because of this reason its bias. A example of this is to say magic nightblade is not 1 of the best large scale pvp classes due to the sucker punch skill cloak. Or magic dk isn't amazing solo. Magic dk has the best class element damage in the game fire. Fire damage equal death to vampire with25% increase in damage. Dk also has a guarantee in with the gap closer ultimate leap. The best single target cc and control in the game with a 7m fossilize. No sorry this chart is wrong and bias and simply isn't true. I like this guy content but I disagree on this one. I do however agree with magic vs stam is weak. I also agree with dlc classes are over preforming compare to other classes. In my opinion all other classes should be buff or dlc classes should be nerf. Not just dk and nightblades.

    how is magdk great solo there burst take a lot to line up and is required to have ult so 1vx is hard without a execute after there ult is used a lot harder to get the kill because there DoTs and be out healed by one HoT. a 10k molten whip means nothing with weak dots to keep low health with most people running around with 25k to 30k hp 1 10k with every 4 gdc isn't that great when cant be combed without ult nd unlike onslot you don't get ult back when they die by it
    DC PC NA
    Magdk - main
    Stamcro - alt

    AD PS4 NA -retired (PC runs way better to play on console)
    magdk
    magblade
    stamplar
    magden
    magsorc

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