Maintenance for the week of February 9:
• NA megaservers for maintenance – February 9, 4:00AM EST (9:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EST (17:00 UTC)
• EU megaservers for maintenance – February 9, 9:00 UTC (4:00AM EST) - 17:00 UTC (12:00PM EST)
• NA megaservers for maintenance – February 9, 4:00AM EST (9:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EST (17:00 UTC)
• EU megaservers for maintenance – February 9, 9:00 UTC (4:00AM EST) - 17:00 UTC (12:00PM EST)
Remove thread
-
ZarkingFrued✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yet again people who's only goal is to stop dying in pvp to better players who will still kill them if LA weave is removed.1 -
Drdeath20✭✭✭✭✭
✭I wish there was a tradeoff for using heavy attacks vs light attacks vs just skill rotations.
Maybe while light attacking all recovery is frozen that way all 3 strategies would have their time and place.0 -
jcm2606✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Would probably still look jank, a rework of the animation system is really what's needed to help make animation cancelling look less jank, improve blending between animations.2 -
TheFM✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Would probably still look jank, a rework of the animation system is really what's needed to help make animation cancelling look less jank, improve blending between animations.
Especially for the staves, sometimes I feel like I have to wait for the bolt to come out0 -
Linaleah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Contaminate wrote: »Contaminate wrote: »1) No
2) No one would enjoy it if it was removed no matter how much they say they would
I would LOVE it if WEAVING as it is right now was removed. not being able to cancel animations (as in skills) in order to dodge/block/etc? not so much. but basically if you cancel animations? IMO - it should cancel damage of that attack as incomplete.
Except that’s not possible to do. You either have action priority or you don’t. Either you’re allowed to cast your heal then block or you’re not. Either you’re allowed to cast a buff while blocking or you’re not.
The real solution to the “problem” of animation canceling, is trimming animations so they always fit within the GCD.
Light weaving shouldn’t deal nearly 20% of someone’s total dps, but it shouldn’t be removed, just revert the Summerset LA buffs that took the damage out of control and buff ability base damages.
ESO works on an instant cast system, meaning ALL animations except those attached to cast times are completely superfluous. They always have been, and no one wants more cast times in this game to slow down combat, which they would. The ones haphazardly placed on ults were a poor enough decision, nothing else needs a similar treatment.
instant casting and animations not mattering IS the problem. because between latency, lag, and personal reflexes it creates both the insane power creep AND skill gap. I do agree that they should animations to actual cast times. and that there NEED to be cast times/GCD (genuine immutable GCD, that exists no matter what). yes, its possible to have action priority where you either finish a cast or you block and the cast is canceled. it literally works that way in numerous other MMO's.
also, these issues didn't start with summerset. they started with vvardenfel, when they severely nerfed sustain which forced people into really doubling down on weaving, taking it to its logical extreme that we have today.
do NOT claim that no one wants to slow down combat in this game. i would LOVE to slow down combat in this game, to narrow the skill gap for one, which would allow for MUCH easier ability balancing.
becasue what happens right now is that whenever ZoS tries to balance abilities they never seem to take both people who weave like machines and people who barely manage to weave if at all. we have all these yoyo combat changes BECAUSE of this.
P.S. I don't do pvp 99% of the time, and when I do, the way I tend to play - this current system doesn't bother me in pvp nearly as much as in pve. I'm talking specifically about pve here and the effect current combat has on it. we have people complaining the game is too easy because they do too much damage to everything, and we have people who are essentially bared from most new group content, because they can NOT "git good" to the point where that content is doable for them. sometimes even on normal, forget vet.Edited by Linaleah on January 16, 2020 5:10AMdirty worthless casual.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***5 -
Nyladreas✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭xxthir13enxx wrote: »Irrelevant...
It is an unintentional addition to the game that could not be fixed or removed...
Making polls or complaining about will not make any difference to the fact that it
Cannot be Removed
Pretty sure it can be removed just fine. ZOS just hasn't really cared about it being removed.1 -
Nyladreas✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭colossalvoids wrote: »That one ''little'' thing can kill off entire population so not sure how you even came up with this... Idea. If you want integral parts changed better look up other games instead.
You're wrong. Way way more people hate it than love it. Problem is that most people actually end up leaving over it than staying so you don't have that many defending it. Some just get used to it and don't complain.
From my observation only a quite small percentage of active players actually like it, and for the most part came from the crowd that initially didn't.
Not to mention this design significantly hurts those with higher latencies due to their location. Which is extremely unfair.
I've lost tons of friends who just gave up on the game in frustration over the past couple of years.
Edited by Nyladreas on January 16, 2020 5:16AM3 -
Spartycuss✭✭✭how do you animation cancel? is it something I'm already doing or is there a trick for it?0
-
Recent✭✭✭✭✭
✭If you remove it then combat becomes boring and everyone complains how boring and ez it is. Leave it be.3 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The horse has left the barn 6 years ago and people are still wondering if the door should be closed
Make Rush of Agony "Monsters only." People should not be consecutively crowd controlled in a PvP setting. Period.5 -
Siohwenoeht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭colossalvoids wrote: »That one ''little'' thing can kill off entire population so not sure how you even came up with this... Idea. If you want integral parts changed better look up other games instead.
You're wrong. Way way more people hate it than love it. Problem is that most people actually end up leaving over it than staying so you don't have that many defending it. Some just get used to it and don't complain.
From my observation only a quite small percentage of active players actually like it, and for the most part came from the crowd that initially didn't.
Not to mention this design significantly hurts those with higher latencies due to their location. Which is extremely unfair.
I've lost tons of friends who just gave up on the game in frustration over the past couple of years.
Not to be a pendant, but source for more want it removed? Most people ani-cancel without even know they are, at least the most basic form which is cancelling the light attack animation with a skill. Block cancelling is done very easily as well.
Latency will be a problem regardless of the existence of ani-cancel, in any multiplayer game."It is a lovely language, but it takes a very long time saying anything in it, because we do not say anything in it, unless it is worth taking a long time to say, and to listen to." - Treebeard0 -
colossalvoids✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭colossalvoids wrote: »That one ''little'' thing can kill off entire population so not sure how you even came up with this... Idea. If you want integral parts changed better look up other games instead.
You're wrong. Way way more people hate it than love it. Problem is that most people actually end up leaving over it than staying so you don't have that many defending it. Some just get used to it and don't complain.
From my observation only a quite small percentage of active players actually like it, and for the most part came from the crowd that initially didn't.
Not to mention this design significantly hurts those with higher latencies due to their location. Which is extremely unfair.
I've lost tons of friends who just gave up on the game in frustration over the past couple of years.
If we play the count any players game - sure, but should a games combat system be designed around seasonal players that do quests, sometimes a veteran dungeon for a change or people doing triple achieves in vet dlc trials where those things actually matter and making game at least there have some fun involved?
It's both worlds right now, game is easy to learn and it's never required any animation cancelling whatsoever to clear content or get desired items but it still has tools to make game more enjoyable and fast paced for ''end game'' players, which is biggest promotion supply for zenimax - streamers, build makers, addon creators and such that make life of a common player a cakewalk.
Removing that feature will kill off population not directly, but when add-ons will not tell people when to block in normal fg1, craft their writs or there will be no build next month from a favorite youtuber of choice people will be leaving for sure.
And thankfully we have it for both populations, no need in trying to deny others playstyle cause it have potential to be ''hard''.2 -
Siohwenoeht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ThePhantomThorn wrote: »ok then. do a dps rota without any light attacks. see how fun it is.
Might take an hour to kill a 6 mil dummy lol 😉"It is a lovely language, but it takes a very long time saying anything in it, because we do not say anything in it, unless it is worth taking a long time to say, and to listen to." - Treebeard0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭CassandraGemini wrote: »Wait, what are you exactly asking about? LA weaving or animation cancelling, as in one or the other? Or both? Because they're not one and the same.
Very good point about the complete lack of clarity between since it seems OP is asking about LAs but mentions the larger picture of animation canceling.
Not that it matters as the answer is a resounding no regardless of the poll results. For anyone who actually understands the combat system in this game also understands why AC, including LAs, is in this game.
For those who do not, this game absolutely requires being able to react immediately to avoid damage in both PvP and PvE. That means we cannot be held up by an action when we need to bock, dodge or another defensive action. This is an absolute and cannot be removed.
Further, Zos has made a clear choice to emphasize the use of basic attacks over the past three years by both increasing their damage over HAs twice and adding sets that provide bonuses for their use. There is also a skill in the Psijic line that specifically requires weaving LAs for it to work.
That is all solid foundation demonstrating that Zos will not remove the ability to weave LAs.4 -
Tigerseye✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭ZarkingFrued wrote: »Just stop. This horse has been beaten to death for years. Give it a rest. It's a core game mechanic.
No, it was a mistake they chose to "embrace".6 -
jcm2606✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Remove animation cancelling, and I can guarantee that you'll immediately want it back again.
Combat relies on animation cancelling to allow you to react to incoming attacks in a timely and reliable manner, remove animation cancelling, and I can guarantee you'll immediately start dying to *** you never struggled against, because you can't block, dodge or interrupt attacks you used to be able to.
That's the entire reason it's a thing in the first place. It didn't just magically appear, Zenimax intentionally implemented it to allow players to do the above, to allow players to not die to *** they can't react to in a timely and reliable manner. It was absolutely intended, was was unintended/unanticipated was players learning how the priority system works and exploiting it to maximise damage. But they can't fix that without trashing everything else, so they just said *** it and embraced it.
If you want proof of this, look at Path of Exile. It features a similar action-styled combat system where you react to incoming attacks by actively moving out of the way or bracing for impact, but it didn't have a priority system, which meant that if you were in the middle of an animation, you're locked in that animation until it ends.
The result? Melee playstyles were unplayable unless you built almost completely into attack speed to get through the animation as fast as possible, and even then you had to be on top of things due to the meta causing your skill casts to be super janky. This effectively killed gear diversity, and provided a solid barrier to entry in terms of how expensive it was to gear up a melee character.
In response to that, GGG retroactively implemented animation cancelling into PoE's existing combat system, allowing movement skills (and the new dodge skills) to cancel other skills. Obviously it had its initial issues, but once they were ironed out, melee playstyles were hugely upgraded in terms of not only how playable they were, but also in terms of gear diversity and cost of gearing up your character. Almost overnight, something that was unplayable without playing meta builds, became playable, and slower builds started becoming viable.
Take animation cancelling out of ESO, and it would be in the same spot Path of Exile was prior to its introduction of animation cancelling. Except, since we don't have an attack speed stat to build into, we're going to have to slow way down to make 100% sure that it's safe to cast a skill with a janky animation (a lot of skills), which will kill the game for so many players.3 -
Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It's like following the dead horse to the nether world just to beat his soul there.5 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭If you want proof of this, look at Path of Exile. It features a similar action-styled combat system where you react to incoming attacks by actively moving out of the way or bracing for impact, but it didn't have a priority system, which meant that if you were in the middle of an animation, you're locked in that animation until it ends.
While what I edited out is still worth reading (post is just before this) I left the paragraph that demonstrates well why we have AC. While it was unintended Zos understood that it is a requirement for the active combat we have in this gave vs the simplistic combat found in WoW and FF.4 -
Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ZarkingFrued wrote: »Just stop. This horse has been beaten to death for years. Give it a rest. It's a core game mechanic.
No, it was a mistake they chose to "embrace".
So ? You do realise that is no argument at all ? Or do You want also combos to be removed from all currently existing fighting games because combos were initially also a mistake devs choose to "embrace" ? Come on pick up any fighting game forums go there and say that devs should remove combos from their title because they're "embracing a mistake".Edited by Juhasow on January 16, 2020 6:16AM4 -
Tigerseye✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭ZarkingFrued wrote: »Just stop. This horse has been beaten to death for years. Give it a rest. It's a core game mechanic.
No, it was a mistake they chose to "embrace".
So ? You do realise that is no argument at all ? Or do You want also combos to be removed from all currently existing fighting games because combos were initially also a mistake devs choose to "embrace" ? Come on pick up any fighting game forums go there and say that devs should remove combos from their title because they're "embracing a mistake".
It wasn't an argument, it was a correction.
I can't be bothered to argue, except to agree with the poster above, who said that more people leave this game, out of disappointment over stuff like this, than otherwise would do.
Therefore, asking the relatively few people who remain - especially on forums, which are notorious for not being representative of the true playerbase/prospective playerbase - will always tend to reflect a minority view.2 -
SydneyGrey✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No. Why does it bother you?
If everybody can do it, then no one has an advantage over anyone else, so what's the issue?2 -
Contaminate✭✭✭✭✭
✭Contaminate wrote: »Contaminate wrote: »1) No
2) No one would enjoy it if it was removed no matter how much they say they would
I would LOVE it if WEAVING as it is right now was removed. not being able to cancel animations (as in skills) in order to dodge/block/etc? not so much. but basically if you cancel animations? IMO - it should cancel damage of that attack as incomplete.
Except that’s not possible to do. You either have action priority or you don’t. Either you’re allowed to cast your heal then block or you’re not. Either you’re allowed to cast a buff while blocking or you’re not.
The real solution to the “problem” of animation canceling, is trimming animations so they always fit within the GCD.
Light weaving shouldn’t deal nearly 20% of someone’s total dps, but it shouldn’t be removed, just revert the Summerset LA buffs that took the damage out of control and buff ability base damages.
ESO works on an instant cast system, meaning ALL animations except those attached to cast times are completely superfluous. They always have been, and no one wants more cast times in this game to slow down combat, which they would. The ones haphazardly placed on ults were a poor enough decision, nothing else needs a similar treatment.
and that there NEED to be cast times/GCD (genuine immutable GCD, that exists no matter what). yes, its possible to have action priority where you either finish a cast or you block and the cast is canceled. it literally works that way in numerous other MMO's.
This alone really invalidated your entire premise. There is a GCD, and it’s not bypassed by anything. At all.
If you don’t even understand that, or blame animations for a players great timing, then you’re not in a position to argue against a feature that is endorsed by the company itself.
If you want a slow combat system, when all content is being designed around players being able to block, roll, bar swap, and cast basically at will, then you’re asking for the entire game to be redone from the ground up, and that’s not going to happen. If you really, really need to be forced to wait out animations or have your 1.5s channel invalidated because you needed to block that otherwise-oneshot in the last .05s of it, there are games available to you.
No amount of slowing down of the game will make players better. No amount of blanket nerfs with no balancing buffs will make players better. Balance changes are wild and cruddy because the ones leading the changes are unqualified to be making them.1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
and that there NEED to be cast times/GCD (genuine immutable GCD, that exists no matter what). yes, its possible to have action priority where you either finish a cast or you block and the cast is canceled. it literally works that way in numerous other MMO's.Contaminate wrote: »Contaminate wrote: »1) No
2) No one would enjoy it if it was removed no matter how much they say they would
I would LOVE it if WEAVING as it is right now was removed. not being able to cancel animations (as in skills) in order to dodge/block/etc? not so much. but basically if you cancel animations? IMO - it should cancel damage of that attack as incomplete.
Except that’s not possible to do. You either have action priority or you don’t. Either you’re allowed to cast your heal then block or you’re not. Either you’re allowed to cast a buff while blocking or you’re not.
The real solution to the “problem” of animation canceling, is trimming animations so they always fit within the GCD.
Light weaving shouldn’t deal nearly 20% of someone’s total dps, but it shouldn’t be removed, just revert the Summerset LA buffs that took the damage out of control and buff ability base damages.
ESO works on an instant cast system, meaning ALL animations except those attached to cast times are completely superfluous. They always have been, and no one wants more cast times in this game to slow down combat, which they would. The ones haphazardly placed on ults were a poor enough decision, nothing else needs a similar treatment.
We have action priority and immutable GCDs for all skills.
There is ~1 second GCD tied to each skill that is required to pass for the skill to fire. This is a known fact. Basic attacks are not skills and are not tied to a GCD but then again their damage is tied to how long they are charged so a GCD is not needed.
Glad I could clear that up.3 -
relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Spartycuss wrote: »how do you animation cancel? is it something I'm already doing or is there a trick for it?
you just block after a skill.0 -
EIGHTS✭✭✭✭Servers of ESO can't handle animation cancel and it's cheating. ESO is lag so hard even in PvE.
If ZOS doesn't remove it, ESO is doomed. Because we don't use macro, we can't play this game.I'm not native speaker in English. I hope that I don't make you misunderstand.2
This discussion has been closed.