Redguard needs a buff

JinxxND · December 2019

It should mirror Breton in 7% reduce cost to all stamina abilities or have a way larger reduce cost for one skill line such as 12%+ which has been stated numerous times to be a supplementary skill line you should look to if your class doesn't have what it requires in a build. Also the 15% snare reduction is a useless passive and should be changed to 100 stam regen since it's a sustain race and lacks no extra forms of damage and utility like woodelf with 1500 pen and a speed boost per dodge roll.

Ragnarock41 · December 2019

I feel like the snare reduction thing is a little too niche aswell. Compared to nord ultgen or orc running speed it just feels subpar, also redguard lacks in total stats compared to both nord and orc once again.

Giving redguard even more stamina sustain would be overkill so I believe changing the snare reduction to something more unique would be more fitting.

JinxxND · December 2019

The thing is that the sustain is only in weapon skills which supplement builds and it's only 1% more then what the Breton gets in LITERALLY EVERY skill costing magicka. Adrenaline rush which is the only good part of the racials could be changed to proc on all damage instead of just direct damage which wouldn't effect PvE parses at all and orc is still BiS cause the damage they have in PvE

Everyone knows the 15% snare reduction is a complete meme compared to ult gen of a nord, sprint speed of an orc, the speed and 1500 pen of a woodelf which also sustains better in PvP cause the crazy amount of regen they have build in on top of having the same max stat now as well.

It is very lackluster compared to all other races esp in PvP

JinxxND · December 2019

Also while on the topic of races that need buffing is imperial, which I'm actually surprised since being the p2w race it isn't overloaded like the p2w class in warden

Langeston · December 2019

You also want 100 regen on top of the 950 stamina you get back back every 5 seconds while you're doing direct damage? That would amount to 480 regen while in battle.

That's a lot better than a Breton.

JobooAGS · December 2019

Langeston wrote: »

You also want 100 regen on top of the 950 stamina you get back back every 5 seconds while you're doing direct damage? That would amount to 480 regen while in battle.

That's a lot better than a Breton.

Well the 950 stam every 5 seconds (380 regen, 190 per sec) in reality is far less than that. Bosmer can hit crazy numbers with their 258 SCALABLE regen that procs ALL THE TIME unless blocking or sprinting and can EASILY surpass a redguard’s IDEAL regen.

In combat sustain should out do out of combat sustain. Does that mean adding on 100 more regen to redguard? Maybe not. Does it mean buffing adrenaline rush or martial knowledge? Likely

Langeston · December 2019

JobooAGS wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

You also want 100 regen on top of the 950 stamina you get back back every 5 seconds while you're doing direct damage? That would amount to 480 regen while in battle.

That's a lot better than a Breton.

Well the 950 stam every 5 seconds (380 regen, 190 per sec) in reality is far less than that. Bosmer can hit crazy numbers with their 258 SCALABLE regen that procs ALL THE TIME unless blocking or sprinting and can EASILY surpass a redguard’s IDEAL regen.

In combat sustain should out do out of combat sustain. Does that mean adding on 100 more regen to redguard? Maybe not. Does it mean buffing adrenaline rush or martial knowledge? Likely

Well yeah I understand all that — but bosmers don't have ability cost reduction like redguards do. The OP wants the weapon cost reduction to get buffed to 12% or turned into an overall stam reduction while turning the snare reduction get into 100 stam regen. My point was that he made no mention of the 380 regen during battle that redguards already get, and that seems like a pretty large omission.

JobooAGS · December 2019

Langeston wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

You also want 100 regen on top of the 950 stamina you get back back every 5 seconds while you're doing direct damage? That would amount to 480 regen while in battle.

That's a lot better than a Breton.

Well the 950 stam every 5 seconds (380 regen, 190 per sec) in reality is far less than that. Bosmer can hit crazy numbers with their 258 SCALABLE regen that procs ALL THE TIME unless blocking or sprinting and can EASILY surpass a redguard’s IDEAL regen.

In combat sustain should out do out of combat sustain. Does that mean adding on 100 more regen to redguard? Maybe not. Does it mean buffing adrenaline rush or martial knowledge? Likely

Well yeah I understand all that — but bosmers don't have ability cost reduction like redguards do. The OP wants the weapon cost reduction to get buffed to 12% or turned into an overall stam reduction while turning the snare reduction get into 100 stam regen. My point was that he made no mention of the 380 regen during battle that redguards already get, and that seems like a pretty large omission.

Redguards also don’t have a damage resistance bonus (literally the only race without one or an hp bonus) or a damage bonus other than max stam (Bosmers have all 3, Orcs have more damage than both and hp though with no sustain other than sprint cost reduction).

Edit: Though adding something else (like break free cost reduction) would be better suited than 100 recovery to avoid opness

JinxxND · December 2019

The cost reduction only applies to the weapon skill which is a supplementary skill line. ONE skill line that is meant to supplement classes and only by 1% more then what the Breton gets with ALL magicka skills. Breton passive that goes not only for skills in the weapon line, class abilities, guild skill line abilities, Armor skill line, alliance war etc. On top of getting 100 mag regen with defensive stats.

Either make it ALL stamina abilities like the Breton at 7% or increase the cost reduce on the SINGLE skill line by more to make it compete with races like Orc that gets weapon damage that scales with brutality for not only offensive but defensive capabilities with heals and other races that are loaded like Nord, Woodelf etc.

The 950 stamina return is flat doesn't scale like the woodelf regen with minor/major endurance/CP/passives that some classes have, also the 950 is IF your landing a direct damage skill every 5 seconds which doesn't realistically happen outside PvE parsing on a dummy that doesn't move while standing still. If it was made to proc on ALL damage such as dots then yes you can mathematically give numbers but this doesn't happen in PvP while having to kite/los/go defensive etc. and once again this number is flat it does NOT scale like the regen on a woodelf and it is supposed to be the stamina sustain race as it doesn't get any utility outside of 15% snare reduction which is useless compared to 1500 spell/wep pen and 10% move speed that can stack with other speed modifiers that are easily accessible through many means or any of the other classes "utility"

Juhasow · December 2019

Langeston wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

You also want 100 regen on top of the 950 stamina you get back back every 5 seconds while you're doing direct damage? That would amount to 480 regen while in battle.

That's a lot better than a Breton.

Well the 950 stam every 5 seconds (380 regen, 190 per sec) in reality is far less than that. Bosmer can hit crazy numbers with their 258 SCALABLE regen that procs ALL THE TIME unless blocking or sprinting and can EASILY surpass a redguard’s IDEAL regen.

In combat sustain should out do out of combat sustain. Does that mean adding on 100 more regen to redguard? Maybe not. Does it mean buffing adrenaline rush or martial knowledge? Likely

Well yeah I understand all that — but bosmers don't have ability cost reduction like redguards do. The OP wants the weapon cost reduction to get buffed to 12% or turned into an overall stam reduction while turning the snare reduction get into 100 stam regen. My point was that he made no mention of the 380 regen during battle that redguards already get, and that seems like a pretty large omission.

While I agree that OP wants too much I must mention that even during fight redguards passive never reaches equivalent of 380 stam regen. It's at best ~350 when fighting dummy and the more realistic fight the lower it gets because You simply wont be doing direct damage excatly every 5 seconds. Sometimes that 8% weapon skill cost reduction combined with stamina restore passive are contributing less to sustain then wood elfs stamina regen passive alone.

Juhasow · December 2019

Well yeah redguards seems like a pretty lackluster race that now is punished for being top tier for too long. Currently its sustain passives are comparable to wood elf stam regen passive and both races have the same amount of max stamina. So basically redguards 15% snare reduction fights wood elfs movement speed and penetration after dodge , posion resistance , posion status immunity and 3 meters detection radius. All when 15% snare reduction is pretty meh considering how many snares and immobilizes game have. In real fight that 15% reduction is barely noticable and everyone just chooses to slot snare+immobilize immunity ability.

ZoS could atleast make stamina restore passive to proc from all damage not just from direct damage. Or just scratch this passive completly and turn it into some small physical resistance/penetration plus small stam regen while turning 8% weapon skill cost reduction into X% stamina cost reduction and then turning that 15% snare reduction into some passive that will grant some bonus after activating weapon skill line ability.

JinxxND · December 2019

This 350 stam regen that is brought up also doesn't scale, and is only if you land EVERY single direct damage attack exactly on the 5 seconds cd of adrenaline rush if you don't it drastically drops. If the race is supposed to sustain in combat then have it proc off all damage done to help actually get full up time because it does not scale like woodelf regen. Also having 1% more cost reduction then another race gets for every skill isn't even close. Either make it exactly the same or like 10-12% for the single skill line.

The 15% snare reduction is a complete joke. Should be replaced with 100 stam regen as it is supposed to be the sustain race and has no defensive or offensive stats unlike like all the other races.

Langeston · December 2019

JinxxND wrote: »

The cost reduction only applies to the weapon skill which is a supplementary skill line. ONE skill line that is meant to supplement classes and only by 1% more then what the Breton gets with ALL magicka skills. Breton passive that goes not only for skills in the weapon line, class abilities, guild skill line abilities, Armor skill line, alliance war etc. On top of getting 100 mag regen with defensive stats.

Either make it ALL stamina abilities like the Breton at 7% or increase the cost reduce on the SINGLE skill line by more to make it compete with races like Orc that gets weapon damage that scales with brutality for not only offensive but defensive capabilities with heals and other races that are loaded like Nord, Woodelf etc.

I understand all of that & I think changing the 8% weapon skill cost reduction to a flat stamina cost reduction would be perfectly fine. The only thing I took issue with was swapping out the snare reduction for yet another regen/cost reduction bonus, which would bring the total to three — I think that would be overkill. (And 7% may be a bit too high with Adrenaline Rush, 5% would probably be more balanced.)

The 950 stamina return is flat doesn't scale like the woodelf regen with minor/major endurance/CP/passives that some classes have, also the 950 is IF your landing a direct damage skill every 5 seconds which doesn't realistically happen outside PvE parsing on a dummy that doesn't move while standing still. If it was made to proc on ALL damage such as dots then yes you can mathematically give numbers but this doesn't happen in PvP while having to kite/los/go defensive etc. and once again this number is flat it does NOT scale like the regen on a woodelf and it is supposed to be the stamina sustain race as it doesn't get any utility outside of 15% snare reduction which is useless compared to 1500 spell/wep pen and 10% move speed that can stack with other speed modifiers that are easily accessible through many means or any of the other classes "utility"

I understand all of this as well — but again, Bosmers don't have a percentage cost reduction, which is what you're proposing Redguards should have. That would even things up quite a bit.

Let's look at an example. For simplicity's sake, we'll just use one skill.
Let's say you use Bombard twice in 5 seconds:
3510 * 2 = 7,020 stamina base cost
-950 from Adrenaline Rush
-491 from your proposed 7% cost reduction
-200 from your proposed 100 regen
= ~1,641 reduction (slightly more if you are a NB, WW, and/or Vampire)

A Bosmer would get about a ~500 reduction, with a Breton getting ~600. Now, these are all rough numbers and they'd go up a good bit for a buffed Bosmer NB WW — but it won't come anywhere near 1.6k.

Now here's the kicker — if you use Bombard a third times during that 5 seconds, the Redguard would save another 246 stam, (bringing you to 1,886) while the Bosmer would stay exactly the same. (Breton would improve by 246 as well, getting to around 850.)

Do you really think that would be balanced?

I understand what you're saying re: how the 950 is only working for you while you're on the offensive, but I don't think you're seriously considering how much stamina you save with it — especially with your playstyle. (I've played with/against you quite a bit.)

As far as the Bosmer roll-dodge passive, it's not free — it costs 3,654 stamina every time you want to proc it. I imagine that's why their regen bonus works the way it does.

Again, I'm not saying Redguards shouldn't get a buff, I'm just saying that the one you proposed would be a bit heavy-handed.

JinxxND · December 2019

The thing is that the redguard has no damage bonus with 1500 spell/phys pen, no speed bonus that can be stacked with minor/major expedition etc., no poison immunity or resistance (prevents dk's from having extra sustain fighting against you on top of mitigating extra damage ticks from double dot poisons/poison inject etc.) and your saying it's supposed to sustain close to a wood elf ONLY if your landing a direct damage attack EVERY 5 seconds, but the 15% snare immunity is supposed to make up for everything else it's lacking compared to the other sustain race that has damage/speed/and some defense built in? Also that's only weapon skill line that doesn't account for using class abilities/vigor etc.

This would at least make redguard around the other races and good for something right now it's subpar compared to every other race which bring a lot more to the table. Wood Elf still has the best sustain right now overall that allows it to not only sustain while fighting with superior regen but while kiting/los on top of everything else with dmg speed.

Either 7% cost reduction to all stamina abilities or an increase in the weapon skill cost reduce to 10-12% and making adrenaline rush proc on ALL damage would be a start to at least making it competitive with the other races and go with the "theme" of having superior sustain in combat since it lacks anything else in terms of damage or defenses.

Langeston · December 2019

JinxxND wrote: »

your saying it's supposed to sustain close to a wood elf ONLY if your landing a direct damage attack EVERY 5 seconds, but the 15% snare immunity is supposed to make up for everything else it's lacking compared to the other sustain race that has damage/speed/and some defense built in? Also that's only weapon skill line that doesn't account for using class abilities/vigor etc.

No, that's not what I'm saying.

I've said twice now that I think a flat stamina cost reduction would be a good idea. (But if Adrenaline Rush is going to stay the way it is, I think the reduction should be about 5%.) That combination alone would give Redguards far better sustain in battle than any other race. (I always had the impression that Redguards were designed around an aggressive playstyle where you benefit more if you're always on the offense.)

That is all I have addressed.

I didn't say "15% snare immunity is supposed to make up for everything else it's lacking," in fact I didn't even address the 15% snare immunity at all because I hadn't given it any thought. Replace it with whatever would fit/work/be fair and then add some kind of resistances under Conditioning.

After making those 3 changes, Redguard begins to look a lot more respectable.

My only issue was that giving Redguards 7% stam cost reduction and 100 regen on top of the 950 from Adrenaline Rush would be overkill with regard to regen/sustain.

JinxxND · December 2019

I think it would be perfectly fine, it would mirror Breton except instead of getting the 2310 resistances that double if your affected by a status effect it would just be more sustain since it has nothing else going for it. That or they keep the weapon skill line cost reduce but up it to 10-12% and have adrenaline rush proc on ALL damage to actually be able to get the flat sustain while engaged in combat.

Compared to other races in stam it would at least be on par at that point. If you want damage and health go Orc, If you want resistances and ult gen you still have Nord, Wood elf still would have the crazy sustain it already has now for los/kiting on top of the damage/speed and redguard would have the best sustain while engaged in combat. Redguard would then be worth mentioning instead of being an after thought behind the 3 top races right now for stam.

MartiniDaniels · December 2019

Redguard and bosmer are basically the same, with exception of bosmer synergy with roll-dodge builds and redguard's synergy with blocking builds with weapon abilities focus. But all those builds can go orc or nord for higher stat density.
Overall, racials are far from being balanced now, there are very obvious BiS and underdogs both for PVP and PVE. In the same time difference between BiS and underdog is like 1.25 set bonuses max, so massive changes are unnecessary. Just few small tweaks, where replacing snare reduction with stam regen can be viable buff for redguard, but it must come with small buffs to bosmer, khajiit, imperial, argonian as well.

Juhasow · December 2019

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Redguard and bosmer are basically the same, with exception of bosmer synergy with roll-dodge builds and redguard's synergy with blocking builds with weapon abilities focus. But all those builds can go orc or nord for higher stat density.
Overall, racials are far from being balanced now, there are very obvious BiS and underdogs both for PVP and PVE. In the same time difference between BiS and underdog is like 1.25 set bonuses max, so massive changes are unnecessary. Just few small tweaks, where replacing snare reduction with stam regen can be viable buff for redguard, but it must come with small buffs to bosmer, khajiit, imperial, argonian as well.

They really aren't the same. They're on paper but in real fight You simply wont generate direct damage attack every 5 seconds excatly to the split of the second. It's even impossible on dummy which is the most perfect scenario. Also fact that You need to block and use weapon abilities extensively to get the most benefits out of a redguard is more of a drawback then benefit comparing it to dodge roll requirement on wood elf.

MartiniDaniels · December 2019

Juhasow wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Redguard and bosmer are basically the same, with exception of bosmer synergy with roll-dodge builds and redguard's synergy with blocking builds with weapon abilities focus. But all those builds can go orc or nord for higher stat density.
Overall, racials are far from being balanced now, there are very obvious BiS and underdogs both for PVP and PVE. In the same time difference between BiS and underdog is like 1.25 set bonuses max, so massive changes are unnecessary. Just few small tweaks, where replacing snare reduction with stam regen can be viable buff for redguard, but it must come with small buffs to bosmer, khajiit, imperial, argonian as well.

They really aren't the same. They're on paper but in real fight You simply wont generate direct damage attack every 5 seconds excatly to the split of the second. It's even impossible on dummy which is the most perfect scenario. Also fact that You need to block and use weapon abilities extensively to get the most benefits out of a redguard is more of a drawback then benefit comparing it to dodge roll requirement on wood elf.

When racials passives were tested, it was shown that redguard will be a little bit better in "intense" fight, while bosmer will have an edge if more movement is involved. Also redguard passive reduces cost of ultimate as well. 138 for onslaught instead of 150 - certainly not bad.

Anyway, I agree that redguard looks lackluster for PVP. But bosmer.. I play AD, and I barely see any bosmers in DC/EP. Maybe 1 from 100 players or even more rare. Majority of stam are "big" guys, i.e. nords and orcs. Nightblades are mostly khajiits. I know many youtubers recommend bosmer for mobility, but mobility is a tricky thing and and as you can see nobody is race changing to bosmer, while ton of players race changed to nord/orc, so argument of buffing redguard in comparison to bosmer is not great. Just compare to nord and orc and it will be obvious redguard is under powered both for PVE and PVP.

JinxxND · December 2019

Not trying compare it to Orc or Nord those races are fine in their own respects but Redguard is supposed to be the sustain race but in reality it sustains worse then a Bosmer and it doesn't have any other passives such as damage with pen 10% increase to speed and poison resistance.

Increase the weapon ability cost reduction to 10-12% OR make it mirror Breton and 7% across the board for all stamina skills. Make Adrenaline Rush proc off ALL damage that way there is no question that you are getting all the flat regen while in combat. Change the 15% snare reduction to 100 stam regen

idk · December 2019

JobooAGS wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

You also want 100 regen on top of the 950 stamina you get back back every 5 seconds while you're doing direct damage? That would amount to 480 regen while in battle.

That's a lot better than a Breton.

Well the 950 stam every 5 seconds (380 regen, 190 per sec) in reality is far less than that. Bosmer can hit crazy numbers with their 258 SCALABLE regen that procs ALL THE TIME unless blocking or sprinting and can EASILY surpass a redguard’s IDEAL regen.

In combat sustain should out do out of combat sustain. Does that mean adding on 100 more regen to redguard? Maybe not. Does it mean buffing adrenaline rush or martial knowledge? Likely

Not really. Even when doing AoE damage it is easy to weave in LAs to proc the passive just like it was before. I am sure someone can come up with niche situations to support your claim but that is all I can see that would make

Even your comparison to the bosmer is ignoring they have a very niche passive for penetration making your comparison look rather incomplete.

Juhasow · December 2019

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Redguard and bosmer are basically the same, with exception of bosmer synergy with roll-dodge builds and redguard's synergy with blocking builds with weapon abilities focus. But all those builds can go orc or nord for higher stat density.
Overall, racials are far from being balanced now, there are very obvious BiS and underdogs both for PVP and PVE. In the same time difference between BiS and underdog is like 1.25 set bonuses max, so massive changes are unnecessary. Just few small tweaks, where replacing snare reduction with stam regen can be viable buff for redguard, but it must come with small buffs to bosmer, khajiit, imperial, argonian as well.

They really aren't the same. They're on paper but in real fight You simply wont generate direct damage attack every 5 seconds excatly to the split of the second. It's even impossible on dummy which is the most perfect scenario. Also fact that You need to block and use weapon abilities extensively to get the most benefits out of a redguard is more of a drawback then benefit comparing it to dodge roll requirement on wood elf.

When racials passives were tested, it was shown that redguard will be a little bit better in "intense" fight, while bosmer will have an edge if more movement is involved. Also redguard passive reduces cost of ultimate as well. 138 for onslaught instead of 150 - certainly not bad.

Anyway, I agree that redguard looks lackluster for PVP. But bosmer.. I play AD, and I barely see any bosmers in DC/EP. Maybe 1 from 100 players or even more rare. Majority of stam are "big" guys, i.e. nords and orcs. Nightblades are mostly khajiits. I know many youtubers recommend bosmer for mobility, but mobility is a tricky thing and and as you can see nobody is race changing to bosmer, while ton of players race changed to nord/orc, so argument of buffing redguard in comparison to bosmer is not great. Just compare to nord and orc and it will be obvious redguard is under powered both for PVE and PVP.

Problem is racials were "tested" on target dummies and only then those passives were equall. That ulti cos reduction is ok but not exceptionally great. It's like 4 seconds less time to charge onslaught. You would have to literally use onslaught excatly at the moment it's being charged to benefit from it , otherwise it makes no difference. Not completly tragic but not the greatest either. And since the time racial changes were introduced the usage of weapon abilities dropped quite a bit in both PvE and PvP especially after Dragonhold update. Redguard is being compared to wood elf mostly because they're most corresponding stamina races since both have equall max resource passive and also sustain passives.

Juhasow · December 2019

idk wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

You also want 100 regen on top of the 950 stamina you get back back every 5 seconds while you're doing direct damage? That would amount to 480 regen while in battle.

That's a lot better than a Breton.

Well the 950 stam every 5 seconds (380 regen, 190 per sec) in reality is far less than that. Bosmer can hit crazy numbers with their 258 SCALABLE regen that procs ALL THE TIME unless blocking or sprinting and can EASILY surpass a redguard’s IDEAL regen.

In combat sustain should out do out of combat sustain. Does that mean adding on 100 more regen to redguard? Maybe not. Does it mean buffing adrenaline rush or martial knowledge? Likely

Not really. Even when doing AoE damage it is easy to weave in LAs to proc the passive just like it was before. I am sure someone can come up with niche situations to support your claim but that is all I can see that would make

Even your comparison to the bosmer is ignoring they have a very niche passive for penetration making your comparison look rather incomplete.

Problem here is You simply wont be able to deal direct dmg excatly every 5 seconds even when in combat. You weave light attacks+skills every 0,9 second in perfect scenario and usually every 1-1,2 second in more realistic scenario. So if cooldown on redguard passive ends like 0,1 sec after Your last attack then You'll have some small downtime on the passive which will stack throughout the fight resulting with realistic regen on redguard being lower then expected 390. Usually on target dummy it's ~350 and in real fights it gets closer to 300. And that is still assuming vast majority of the fight You're non stop attacking the enemy which not always happens.

SodanTok · December 2019

Nah. All the stam races but Orc are so close together that any buff would just be picking favorite for after Orc nerfing. Anything even resembling combat buff (damage, sustain) would clearly put them ahead. Tho their utility passive is indeed very lackluster.

MartiniDaniels · December 2019

Juhasow wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Redguard and bosmer are basically the same, with exception of bosmer synergy with roll-dodge builds and redguard's synergy with blocking builds with weapon abilities focus. But all those builds can go orc or nord for higher stat density.
Overall, racials are far from being balanced now, there are very obvious BiS and underdogs both for PVP and PVE. In the same time difference between BiS and underdog is like 1.25 set bonuses max, so massive changes are unnecessary. Just few small tweaks, where replacing snare reduction with stam regen can be viable buff for redguard, but it must come with small buffs to bosmer, khajiit, imperial, argonian as well.

They really aren't the same. They're on paper but in real fight You simply wont generate direct damage attack every 5 seconds excatly to the split of the second. It's even impossible on dummy which is the most perfect scenario. Also fact that You need to block and use weapon abilities extensively to get the most benefits out of a redguard is more of a drawback then benefit comparing it to dodge roll requirement on wood elf.

When racials passives were tested, it was shown that redguard will be a little bit better in "intense" fight, while bosmer will have an edge if more movement is involved. Also redguard passive reduces cost of ultimate as well. 138 for onslaught instead of 150 - certainly not bad.

Anyway, I agree that redguard looks lackluster for PVP. But bosmer.. I play AD, and I barely see any bosmers in DC/EP. Maybe 1 from 100 players or even more rare. Majority of stam are "big" guys, i.e. nords and orcs. Nightblades are mostly khajiits. I know many youtubers recommend bosmer for mobility, but mobility is a tricky thing and and as you can see nobody is race changing to bosmer, while ton of players race changed to nord/orc, so argument of buffing redguard in comparison to bosmer is not great. Just compare to nord and orc and it will be obvious redguard is under powered both for PVE and PVP.

Problem is racials were "tested" on target dummies and only then those passives were equall. That ulti cos reduction is ok but not exceptionally great. It's like 4 seconds less time to charge onslaught. You would have to literally use onslaught excatly at the moment it's being charged to benefit from it. Not completly tragic but not the greatest either. And since the time racial changes were introduced the usage of weapon abilities dropped quite a bit in both PvE and PvP especially after Dragonhold update. Redguard is being compared to wood elf mostly because they're most corresponding stamina races since both have equall max resource passive and also sustain passives.

I disagree about ultimate. Bloodspawn is most popular monster helm in PVP because of his ulti gen+nice stam regen bonus. If people were just after resistances, they will be using 2xresistance helms (chudan+pirate) to have permanent 6k bonus. Onslaught and ballista are very powerful this patch, so this bonus is really useful.

And again - I agree redguard needs a buff. But not only redguard, other races require buffs/tweaks too. For bosmer it was suggested long ago - move penetration bonus from roll-dodge to permanent. For khajiit increase crit damage a bit to increase synergy with crit builds. For argonian, add 128 SD/WD as compensation for healing done buff to "item sets" which argonian didn't received. Add 600 more health to imperial to increase synergy with lava foot soup.

Until then, we'll have BiS pantheon of orc, nord and breton. 2 magicka elves which don't want to switch to breton but still okay and 5 lesser races with situational/suboptimal bonuses.

Juhasow · December 2019

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Redguard and bosmer are basically the same, with exception of bosmer synergy with roll-dodge builds and redguard's synergy with blocking builds with weapon abilities focus. But all those builds can go orc or nord for higher stat density.
Overall, racials are far from being balanced now, there are very obvious BiS and underdogs both for PVP and PVE. In the same time difference between BiS and underdog is like 1.25 set bonuses max, so massive changes are unnecessary. Just few small tweaks, where replacing snare reduction with stam regen can be viable buff for redguard, but it must come with small buffs to bosmer, khajiit, imperial, argonian as well.

They really aren't the same. They're on paper but in real fight You simply wont generate direct damage attack every 5 seconds excatly to the split of the second. It's even impossible on dummy which is the most perfect scenario. Also fact that You need to block and use weapon abilities extensively to get the most benefits out of a redguard is more of a drawback then benefit comparing it to dodge roll requirement on wood elf.

When racials passives were tested, it was shown that redguard will be a little bit better in "intense" fight, while bosmer will have an edge if more movement is involved. Also redguard passive reduces cost of ultimate as well. 138 for onslaught instead of 150 - certainly not bad.

Anyway, I agree that redguard looks lackluster for PVP. But bosmer.. I play AD, and I barely see any bosmers in DC/EP. Maybe 1 from 100 players or even more rare. Majority of stam are "big" guys, i.e. nords and orcs. Nightblades are mostly khajiits. I know many youtubers recommend bosmer for mobility, but mobility is a tricky thing and and as you can see nobody is race changing to bosmer, while ton of players race changed to nord/orc, so argument of buffing redguard in comparison to bosmer is not great. Just compare to nord and orc and it will be obvious redguard is under powered both for PVE and PVP.

Problem is racials were "tested" on target dummies and only then those passives were equall. That ulti cos reduction is ok but not exceptionally great. It's like 4 seconds less time to charge onslaught. You would have to literally use onslaught excatly at the moment it's being charged to benefit from it. Not completly tragic but not the greatest either. And since the time racial changes were introduced the usage of weapon abilities dropped quite a bit in both PvE and PvP especially after Dragonhold update. Redguard is being compared to wood elf mostly because they're most corresponding stamina races since both have equall max resource passive and also sustain passives.

I disagree about ultimate. Bloodspawn is most popular monster helm in PVP because of his ulti gen+nice stam regen bonus. If people were just after resistances, they will be using 2xresistance helms (chudan+pirate) to have permanent 6k bonus. Onslaught and ballista are very powerful this patch, so this bonus is really useful.

And again - I agree redguard needs a buff. But not only redguard, other races require buffs/tweaks too. For bosmer it was suggested long ago - move penetration bonus from roll-dodge to permanent. For khajiit increase crit damage a bit to increase synergy with crit builds. For argonian, add 128 SD/WD as compensation for healing done buff to "item sets" which argonian didn't received. Add 600 more health to imperial to increase synergy with lava foot soup.

Until then, we'll have BiS pantheon of orc, nord and breton. 2 magicka elves which don't want to switch to breton but still okay and 5 lesser races with situational/suboptimal bonuses.

Kinda like comparing apples to oranges. First of all I never said redguard passive is trash but I said it's simply not the greatest thing. There is a difference between bloodspawn and redguard ultimate passive. Bloodspawn gives You numeric value of ultimate gained when redguard passive is percentage cost reduction. So to get full benefit from redguard passive You need some very specific expensive ultimates but even when You compare how much fatser bloodspawn will make charging Your ultimate vs redguard passive it's becoming even more clear redguard passive is not the best stuff. And with bloodspawn any ultimate You want can be used faster not only few specific ones which You rarely use outside of PvP but in PvP even nord have better ulti gen passive then redguard so comparing redguard passive to bloodspawn is kinda silly.

As for reason why people are using bloodspawn belive me if resistance part would be removed from it and it would be left just with ulti charge component , amount of people that are wearing it would also drop drastically. People are not using it just for ulti and stam regen but for ulti stam regen AND resistances alltogether. Bloodspawn is simply extremly great set. It's downright silly to make an argument about redguard passive being ok because bloodspawn also charges ult and people are using it. And belive me if resistance component would be removed from bloodspawn many people would reconsider using it.

As for Your propositions for changes to other races few of them will achieve basically the thing You're complaining about which is having a pantheon of races , some of them will just change their places. For example adding 1,5k permanent penetration to wood elf will make wood elf BiS race because he'll be able to sustain the same way with double stat food or with bewitched sugar skulls like orc with artaeum takeaway broth but wood elf will have more stamina and more health thanks to food buff he's using plus more penetration resulting with same sustain , more health and more damage because additional stam and pen will outparse orcs weapon damage and allow for better CP distribution.

MartiniDaniels · December 2019

Juhasow wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Redguard and bosmer are basically the same, with exception of bosmer synergy with roll-dodge builds and redguard's synergy with blocking builds with weapon abilities focus. But all those builds can go orc or nord for higher stat density.
Overall, racials are far from being balanced now, there are very obvious BiS and underdogs both for PVP and PVE. In the same time difference between BiS and underdog is like 1.25 set bonuses max, so massive changes are unnecessary. Just few small tweaks, where replacing snare reduction with stam regen can be viable buff for redguard, but it must come with small buffs to bosmer, khajiit, imperial, argonian as well.

They really aren't the same. They're on paper but in real fight You simply wont generate direct damage attack every 5 seconds excatly to the split of the second. It's even impossible on dummy which is the most perfect scenario. Also fact that You need to block and use weapon abilities extensively to get the most benefits out of a redguard is more of a drawback then benefit comparing it to dodge roll requirement on wood elf.

When racials passives were tested, it was shown that redguard will be a little bit better in "intense" fight, while bosmer will have an edge if more movement is involved. Also redguard passive reduces cost of ultimate as well. 138 for onslaught instead of 150 - certainly not bad.

Anyway, I agree that redguard looks lackluster for PVP. But bosmer.. I play AD, and I barely see any bosmers in DC/EP. Maybe 1 from 100 players or even more rare. Majority of stam are "big" guys, i.e. nords and orcs. Nightblades are mostly khajiits. I know many youtubers recommend bosmer for mobility, but mobility is a tricky thing and and as you can see nobody is race changing to bosmer, while ton of players race changed to nord/orc, so argument of buffing redguard in comparison to bosmer is not great. Just compare to nord and orc and it will be obvious redguard is under powered both for PVE and PVP.

Problem is racials were "tested" on target dummies and only then those passives were equall. That ulti cos reduction is ok but not exceptionally great. It's like 4 seconds less time to charge onslaught. You would have to literally use onslaught excatly at the moment it's being charged to benefit from it. Not completly tragic but not the greatest either. And since the time racial changes were introduced the usage of weapon abilities dropped quite a bit in both PvE and PvP especially after Dragonhold update. Redguard is being compared to wood elf mostly because they're most corresponding stamina races since both have equall max resource passive and also sustain passives.

I disagree about ultimate. Bloodspawn is most popular monster helm in PVP because of his ulti gen+nice stam regen bonus. If people were just after resistances, they will be using 2xresistance helms (chudan+pirate) to have permanent 6k bonus. Onslaught and ballista are very powerful this patch, so this bonus is really useful.

And again - I agree redguard needs a buff. But not only redguard, other races require buffs/tweaks too. For bosmer it was suggested long ago - move penetration bonus from roll-dodge to permanent. For khajiit increase crit damage a bit to increase synergy with crit builds. For argonian, add 128 SD/WD as compensation for healing done buff to "item sets" which argonian didn't received. Add 600 more health to imperial to increase synergy with lava foot soup.

Until then, we'll have BiS pantheon of orc, nord and breton. 2 magicka elves which don't want to switch to breton but still okay and 5 lesser races with situational/suboptimal bonuses.

Kinda like comparing apples to oranges. First of all I never said redguard passive is trash but I said it's simply not the greatest thing. There is a difference between bloodspawn and redguard ultimate passive. Bloodspawn gives You numeric value of ultimate gained when redguard passive is percentage cost reduction. So to get full benefit from redguard passive You need some very specific expensive ultimates but even when You compare how much fatser bloodspawn will make charging Your ultimate vs redguard passive it's becoming even more clear redguard passive is not the best stuff. And with bloodspawn any ultimate You want can be used faster not only few specific ones which You rarely use outside of PvP but in PvP even nord have better ulti gen passive then redguard so comparing redguard passive to bloodspawn is kinda silly.

As for reason why people are using bloodspawn belive me if resistance part would be removed from it and it would be left just with ulti charge component , amount of people that are wearing it would also drop drastically. People are not using it just for ulti and stam regen but for ulti stam regen AND resistances alltogether. Bloodspawn is simply extremly great set. It's downright silly to make an argument about redguard passive being ok because bloodspawn also charges ult and people are using it. And belive me if resistance component would be removed from bloodspawn many people would reconsider using it.

As for Your propositions for changes to other races few of them will achieve basically the thing You're complaining about which is having a pantheon of races , some of them will just change their places. For example adding 1,5k permanent penetration to wood elf will make wood elf BiS race because he'll be able to sustain the same way with double stat food or with bewitched sugar skulls like orc with artaeum takeaway broth but wood elf will have more stamina and more health thanks to food buff he's using plus more penetration resulting with same sustain , more health and more damage because additional stam and pen will outparse orcs weapon damage and allow for better CP distribution.

So fact that PVE orc has one set bonus more then other races whole year is ok, but buffing other races for 1 set bonus to orc level is not ok? And redguard won't become new BiS if what OP suggests will be done (i.e. 10-12% cost reduction + 100 stam recovery)?

JinxxND · December 2019

I don't think any races need to be nerfed cause it's not a 0 counter play super over powered issue like things in the past such as old rune cage or the current streak morph. I just think a lot of them need to be brought up to the Orc, Nord, Wood Elf level. Reserve all the nerf talk to stuff that has no counter play and is crazy over performing.

My proposed changes would put Redguard at a level that is competitive with the Top races taking nothing away from them and staying with the "theme" of sustain in combat with Redguard

JinxxND · December 2019

Adrenaline Rush getting buffed to proc on ALL damage wouldn't change anything sustain wise from these hypothetical numbers or parses but actually be used in combat ensuring if you had a single dot running making all those calculations 100% accurate as long as damage is on a target.

Increase in the cost reduction on weapon skills to 10-12% would be fair since it's a supplemental skill line. All classes still to use class abilities and skills like vigor that don't get this use of this but when they choose to supplement builds by dipping in the weapon line they would get the cost reduction. More then 1% in what Breton gets for EVERY SINGLE MAGICKA SKILL including ones in the weapon skill lines.

15% reduce snare reduction is terrible and useless, switch this for 100 stam regen that scales then you got a race that is competitive and worth a thought when making a character. @ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_BrianWheeler

Langeston · December 2019

@JinxxND
How much sustain do you run with?

JinxxND · December 2019

Langeston wrote: »

@JinxxND
How much sustain do you run with?

Kinda of random question but depends on the build as I run so many different ones so it varies. Anywhere from 1700 to 2500 regen non CP, if you were talking about the last time I saw you on your vamp drain gank magblade it was 2459 regen non CP before buffs. Your also more then welcome to whisper me in game for build information and theory crafting.