Redguard needs a buff

Ladislao

@JinxxND I don’t know how to respond to your post, because it shows that you did not read or understand what I wrote. Unfortunately, this says a lot about the meaninglessness of this topic as a whole.

JobooAGS wrote: »

You do realize that 258 SCALABLE stam regen + poison resists >>> than 380 MAX UNSCALABLE stam regen that requires you to never miss and to always be on a target all the time at least once every 5 seconds precisely?

Sure, I do.

JobooAGS wrote: »

To add insult to injury, a bosmer also has damage through pen and redguard has what, a cheaper onslaught/ballista? (not going to talk about shield ult or dw ult, one is defensive, the other is garbage and who would play redguard for destro ult when you will get more out of it via altmer dunmer or breton?) Also who burns their ult on cooldown unless in certain pve activities? Besides, Nord does ult regen better has hp and has resists.

This is where we had to start. Let's just write out the passives, excluding similar ones (in the previous post, I explained why speed increasing and snare reduction are the same).
Bosmer's passives:

• 258 scalable stam regen
• 2% damage (after a roll dodge)
• 4% poison resists (+poisoned immunity)

Redguard's passives:

• up to 380 unscalable stam regen (after a direct hit)
• 8% weapon skills cost reduction

It looks quite balanced, depending on build. Bosmer is better suited for medium armor oriented builds with a high percentage stam regen bonus. Redguards is better suited for heavy armor oriented builds, relying on weapon skills. But there is nothing extremely unbalanced, which OP has been trying to say for a month now. At all.

JobooAGS wrote: »

who would play redguard for destro ult when you will get more out of it via altmer dunmer or breton?

I guess you meant magicka builds so that's right. But for stamina builds redguard is better than the mentioned races for destro/restro ulties.

thadjarvis wrote: »

Slight aside:
Curious, how would redguard stack with warden snare reduction? Is it additive such that a 30% snare would have no effect?

They add up additively. That is, you can get 30% snare reduction as a redguard warden, or even 80% as a redguard warden in ranger's gale.
But it applies as percent to a snare. I mean, 30% snare reduction applied to 30% snare will result 20% snare.

JinxxND

thadjarvis wrote: »

The redguard passive rewards being aggressive with weapons or permablocking. For sustain, class skill, LoS, dodging, and retreat focused play style Woody fits. Makes sense in lore. Having a sustain race for a warrior play-style (brawling with weapons) and one for hoping around with often magical looking class skills is good right?

DW is the ideal weapon (high cost and high direct damage frequency) to benefit from redguard but not currently the most popular weapon choice.
Tweaking the passive so that Bow/2h get the same uptime as DW while still emphasizing persistent direct damage could help.

Permablocking benefit falls short for many tanks due to the entire relative passives package.
As suggested above, adding physical resist could give a nod for tanks (not claiming meta; just slightly more useful).

Honestly though, they are lots of fun on stamsorc's right now.

Slight aside:
Curious, how would redguard stack with warden snare reduction? Is it additive such that a 30% snare would have no effect?

Making adrenaline rush proc off all damage would go with this theme of sustaining thru fighting and being aggressive without buffing anything and actually be used in everything other then target dummy parses with all the movement required in the game. The snare reduction just means that a 30% snare would snare you 15% less which is nothing and not noticeable with any snare even the big ones where supposedly you get more value from it but in the end you still can't move without snare immunity no matter how much snare reduction you stack. You can be a redguard warden with ranger gait and a 5-1-1 setup for 84% snare reduction and the biggest snare will still have you move like a snail making it a useless stat to invest into and a useless passive.

JobooAGS

Ladislao wrote: »

@JinxxND I don’t know how to respond to your post, because it shows that you did not read or understand what I wrote. Unfortunately, this says a lot about the meaninglessness of this topic as a whole.

JobooAGS wrote: »

You do realize that 258 SCALABLE stam regen + poison resists >>> than 380 MAX UNSCALABLE stam regen that requires you to never miss and to always be on a target all the time at least once every 5 seconds precisely?

Sure, I do.

JobooAGS wrote: »

To add insult to injury, a bosmer also has damage through pen and redguard has what, a cheaper onslaught/ballista? (not going to talk about shield ult or dw ult, one is defensive, the other is garbage and who would play redguard for destro ult when you will get more out of it via altmer dunmer or breton?) Also who burns their ult on cooldown unless in certain pve activities? Besides, Nord does ult regen better has hp and has resists.

This is where we had to start. Let's just write out the passives, excluding similar ones (in the previous post, I explained why speed increasing and snare reduction are the same).
Bosmer's passives:

• 258 scalable stam regen
• 2% damage (after a roll dodge)
• 4% poison resists (+poisoned immunity)

Redguard's passives:

• up to 380 unscalable stam regen (after a direct hit)
• 8% weapon skills cost reduction

It looks quite balanced, depending on build. Bosmer is better suited for medium armor oriented builds with a high percentage stam regen bonus. Redguards is better suited for heavy armor oriented builds, relying on weapon skills. But there is nothing extremely unbalanced, which OP has been trying to say for a month now. At all.

JobooAGS wrote: »

who would play redguard for destro ult when you will get more out of it via altmer dunmer or breton?

I guess you meant magicka builds so that's right. But for stamina builds redguard is better than the mentioned races for destro/restro ulties.

thadjarvis wrote: »

Slight aside:
Curious, how would redguard stack with warden snare reduction? Is it additive such that a 30% snare would have no effect?

They add up additively. That is, you can get 30% snare reduction as a redguard warden, or even 80% as a redguard warden in ranger's gale.

So you are perfectly fine with a race that is pigeon holed into using certain skills and even more so, being overall worse at the thing which it is supposed to do? Even for a heavy armor build with mainly weapon skills I’d still choose bosmer over redguard passivewise. The 258 regen will still beat out adrenaline rush and even for many builds the cost reduction too even in an ideal setting as there are still many more stam regen multipliers (You lose only 12% regen going from 5 medium to 2, which is 31 regen on a bosmer) Having more resists and damage is also a HUGE benefit over a race that has none (the 2k stam bonus both races enjoy).
Additionally you are completely missing the fact that you WILL NOT have a direct hit every 5 seconds in most situations. Therefore your 380 regen is actually much much lower.
Meanwhile, unless you hold down rmb or your sprint key your regen is always ticking.

Nord is still better than redguard for destro/resto ults. Their ult gen tops the 8% cost reduction.

I would rather have redguard have less of a condition on its stam restore passive OR a less pigeonholey passive (maybe 5% on all stam skills) OR a damage passive/other buff to martial knowledge if redguard must be pigeonholed.

Plus snare reduction is useless when every stam build has a snare removal/immunity skill.

thadjarvis

Making adrenaline rush proc of all damage permits it's use on DoT and evade style rather than just sustained direct fighting. I mentioned that DW/Bow would technically have a slightly lower uptime due the buff falling off just after beginning a cast time skill initiation. But how much is that really? I haven't looked, but do we see large differences in people's parses as that would confirm or deny if it's really an issue.

If not light attacking between cast time (well all) skills is the root of the uptime problem, it seems odd to get into how races (or anything) compare as the baseline for a balance discussion should include an assumption of playing within the core game mechanics that ZoS assumes when balancing (I would hope).

Juhasow

idk wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

idk wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

You also want 100 regen on top of the 950 stamina you get back back every 5 seconds while you're doing direct damage? That would amount to 480 regen while in battle.

That's a lot better than a Breton.

Well the 950 stam every 5 seconds (380 regen, 190 per sec) in reality is far less than that. Bosmer can hit crazy numbers with their 258 SCALABLE regen that procs ALL THE TIME unless blocking or sprinting and can EASILY surpass a redguard’s IDEAL regen.

In combat sustain should out do out of combat sustain. Does that mean adding on 100 more regen to redguard? Maybe not. Does it mean buffing adrenaline rush or martial knowledge? Likely

Not really. Even when doing AoE damage it is easy to weave in LAs to proc the passive just like it was before. I am sure someone can come up with niche situations to support your claim but that is all I can see that would make

Even your comparison to the bosmer is ignoring they have a very niche passive for penetration making your comparison look rather incomplete.

Problem here is You simply wont be able to deal direct dmg excatly every 5 seconds even when in combat. You weave light attacks+skills every 0,9 second in perfect scenario and usually every 1-1,2 second in more realistic scenario. So if cooldown on redguard passive ends like 0,1 sec after Your last attack then You'll have some small downtime on the passive which will stack throughout the fight resulting with realistic regen on redguard being lower then expected 390. Usually on target dummy it's ~350 and in real fights it gets closer to 300. And that is still assuming vast majority of the fight You're non stop attacking the enemy which not always happens.

Not really. Half decent players will be providing two opportunities every 1 to 1.2 seconds.

Yes, that means a player will not be procing the passive at every 5 seconds exactly but one would have to think Zos, and especially Gilliam, is pretty ignorant of combat in this game to have not taken that into consideration when they updated the passives. I for one do not think Gill is obuse to these things as he probably knows more about combat in this game than most players and everyone at Zos.

Problem is that providing 2 oportunities every 1-1,2 second will happen rarely for most of the players in PvE and never in PvP. For example in content like BGs redguards restore per second is arevaring around 100 while in fight. In Pve it's usually ~150 for decent players (slightly more for very good players and less for casuals). So either ZoS knowingly made redguard passive circumstancial or they didn't predict that not every enemy is a target dummy. Both options seems pretty bad for players having redguard characters.

I used to run with a very casual group of players and was able to get them clearing the trials early on in this game in part because they bothered to learn to weave basic attacks into their skills. I also often weave in PvP but that is because it is a habit for me.

Your suggestion that the game should be balanced to a lower skill level just makes those who can even stronger and creates a greater divide between those who can and those who cannot. That is a pretty bad idea. After a few weeks and only two pages on this thread it seem the idea does not have much support. BTW, I have three redguards that I have chosen to keep redguards.

Umm my suggestion ? Where did I suggest anything ? All I said is that currently redguard pretty much sucks and lacks identity in real fights. There was no suggestion that game should be balanced around low tier players lol. And btw there is plenty of was to implement passives the way that will benefit all types of players equally like for example changing redguard passive to proc out of all damage (just an example though not a suggestion).

Umm. You said some players are not able to get 2 opportunities every 1/1/2 second. In the context of saying that in this thread it seems rather evident you are suggesting that the Redguard passive be buffed based on the lesser skilled player that is challenged with weaving basic attacks.

So if you were just saying that out of the blue and not having anything to do with the context of this thread and my related comments then my bad. I just figured there was an actual reason it was mentioned.

I've said quote "problem is that providing 2 oportunities every 1-1,2 second will happen rarely for most of the players in PvE and never in PvP". I never said the reason for that is their skill level. In real combat You'll simply rarely do direct damage every 1-1,2 sec for few minutes straight.

Odd. I had thought that a basic attack was direct damage and since a moderately skilled and practiced player will be weaving attacks before skills then they will be doing direct damage every 1-1/1/2 second. There is a reason why some players do significantly greater damage than others.

Even in PvP I weave LAs often so to say never in PvP is an absolute that is factually flawed. Maybe we just run with group of players as even the more casual guild I run with some does better than what you are claiming for yourself.

I will say I weave LAs always in PvE but less often in PvP, but still do. However, race passives should not be balanced to that lower number and especially to players who chose to not weave much. It becomes OP in other situations.

@Ladislao presents a comparison worth looking at in the post right after this one. It shows the Redguard performing quite well in situations. Zos needs to consider when a player can get the passive to perform at it's best vs when a player cannot get the most out of it due to their chosen playstyle.

What ? Why are You even starting to describe what types of groups You're running with ? What does it bring to discussion ? How does player skill argument contributes into the discusson here ? Like seriously what the heck are You talking about ? Do You even read what I posted ? I explained You what I mean and yet You're repeating basically excatly the same what You've posted in earlier post. As I said I was never suggesting anything and I never mentioned redguard passive is skill based.

It's not about being experienced or not , it's not about running with good or bad groups. It's about real fight scenario. Redguard passive is designed in vacuum. It dooes not reflect on real fights and skill or experience of players have nothing to do with it. Even most experienced players wont be able to reach max values of redguard passive in many of the real fights. You will simply not hit direct damage once per 5 seconds. Sometimes there will be 10+ seconds breaks when You wont be doing any damage because You know mechanics and stuff.

In PvP it'll be even more noticable. redguards restore passive is designed to be comparable to wood elfs stamina regen when it's used to the maximum but in reality it'll be never used to the maximum. It's simply bad design ignoring reality. And @Ladislao post also ignores reality. Redguard passive will never reach equivalent of 380 stam regen in fights other then dummy parse. Like seriously never. In PvE it'll be ~300 in PvP under 200.

JinxxND

Ladislao wrote: »

@JinxxND I don’t know how to respond to your post, because it shows that you did not read or understand what I wrote. Unfortunately, this says a lot about the meaninglessness of this topic as a whole.

JobooAGS wrote: »

You do realize that 258 SCALABLE stam regen + poison resists >>> than 380 MAX UNSCALABLE stam regen that requires you to never miss and to always be on a target all the time at least once every 5 seconds precisely?

Sure, I do.

JobooAGS wrote: »

To add insult to injury, a bosmer also has damage through pen and redguard has what, a cheaper onslaught/ballista? (not going to talk about shield ult or dw ult, one is defensive, the other is garbage and who would play redguard for destro ult when you will get more out of it via altmer dunmer or breton?) Also who burns their ult on cooldown unless in certain pve activities? Besides, Nord does ult regen better has hp and has resists.

This is where we had to start. Let's just write out the passives, excluding similar ones (in the previous post, I explained why speed increasing and snare reduction are the same).
Bosmer's passives:

• 258 scalable stam regen
• 2% damage (after a roll dodge)
• 4% poison resists (+poisoned immunity)

Redguard's passives:

• up to 380 unscalable stam regen (after a direct hit)
• 8% weapon skills cost reduction

It looks quite balanced, depending on build. Bosmer is better suited for medium armor oriented builds with a high percentage stam regen bonus. Redguards is better suited for heavy armor oriented builds, relying on weapon skills. But there is nothing extremely unbalanced, which OP has been trying to say for a month now. At all.

JobooAGS wrote: »

who would play redguard for destro ult when you will get more out of it via altmer dunmer or breton?

I guess you meant magicka builds so that's right. But for stamina builds redguard is better than the mentioned races for destro/restro ulties.

thadjarvis wrote: »

Slight aside:
Curious, how would redguard stack with warden snare reduction? Is it additive such that a 30% snare would have no effect?

They add up additively. That is, you can get 30% snare reduction as a redguard warden, or even 80% as a redguard warden in ranger's gale.
But it applies as percent to a snare. I mean, 30% snare reduction applied to 30% snare will result 20% snare.

I don't think you understand the condition of 950 stam regen on every direct damage ability every 5 seconds and how many times I have to explain it compared to 258 stam regen that scales even with heavy armor and how it's not even close because of the condition to proc it exactly on the cd to get the hypothetical regen of this 380 number you bring up. It simple does not happen outside of a perfect parse only on a target dummy that does not attack back or move. Like I've mentioned a million times it seems if it was made to proc on all damage such as dots then you can get closer to this hypothetical regen number that still doesn't scale.

Also once again every other race isn't pigeon holed into anything specific like weapon skill even a heavy armor user uses many class and abilities from other trees. You could be a heavy armor breton magicka user and get more sustain from the 7% in all magicka abilites and 100 mag regen that scales or even a heavy armor wood elf simple because the scaling regen it gets still ends up sustaining better in PvP

Juhasow

Ladislao wrote: »

@JinxxND I don’t know how to respond to your post, because it shows that you did not read or understand what I wrote. Unfortunately, this says a lot about the meaninglessness of this topic as a whole.

JobooAGS wrote: »

You do realize that 258 SCALABLE stam regen + poison resists >>> than 380 MAX UNSCALABLE stam regen that requires you to never miss and to always be on a target all the time at least once every 5 seconds precisely?

Sure, I do.

JobooAGS wrote: »

To add insult to injury, a bosmer also has damage through pen and redguard has what, a cheaper onslaught/ballista? (not going to talk about shield ult or dw ult, one is defensive, the other is garbage and who would play redguard for destro ult when you will get more out of it via altmer dunmer or breton?) Also who burns their ult on cooldown unless in certain pve activities? Besides, Nord does ult regen better has hp and has resists.

This is where we had to start. Let's just write out the passives, excluding similar ones (in the previous post, I explained why speed increasing and snare reduction are the same).
Bosmer's passives:

• 258 scalable stam regen
• 2% damage (after a roll dodge)
• 4% poison resists (+poisoned immunity)

Redguard's passives:

• up to 380 unscalable stam regen (after a direct hit)
• 8% weapon skills cost reduction

It looks quite balanced, depending on build. Bosmer is better suited for medium armor oriented builds with a high percentage stam regen bonus. Redguards is better suited for heavy armor oriented builds, relying on weapon skills. But there is nothing extremely unbalanced, which OP has been trying to say for a month now. At all.

JobooAGS wrote: »

who would play redguard for destro ult when you will get more out of it via altmer dunmer or breton?

I guess you meant magicka builds so that's right. But for stamina builds redguard is better than the mentioned races for destro/restro ulties.

thadjarvis wrote: »

Slight aside:
Curious, how would redguard stack with warden snare reduction? Is it additive such that a 30% snare would have no effect?

They add up additively. That is, you can get 30% snare reduction as a redguard warden, or even 80% as a redguard warden in ranger's gale.
But it applies as percent to a snare. I mean, 30% snare reduction applied to 30% snare will result 20% snare.

No it doesnt look quite balance. First of all wood elfs 10% speed buff is superior to redguards 15% snare reduction. The only instance where being snared really matters and You want to do something with it is PvP and in PvP everyone slots some type of snare removal because sorry but having 40% snare reduced by 15% which means having still 34% snare is basically like not having that 15% snare reduction. When You're wood elf You can have snare removal/immunity and movement speed buff so You can still benefit from racial passive when You're redguard and You have snare removal/immunity slotted (which You have) You are no longer benefiting from Your racial. Also wood elf grants addition physical penetration after dodge roll which is usefull in PvP if You plan to make a burst combo after the roll. So 1:0 for wood elf.

Next the comparison You've made. You completly ignore how redguards passive works. UP TO 380 stam regen means basically it'll never be 380 stam regen especially that requirement is to deal ditrect damage excatly every 5 seconds which will never happen in real fights. In good scenarios You'll get it to ~300 and 300 is what wood elf gets just with potion without even counting medium armor , class passives and CPs so even in heavy armor wood elf will outperform redguard. With those mentioned passives wood elf will go up to over 400 regen without any requirements when redguard will stay at ~300 if You meet the requirements. And then wehave redguards weapon abilities cost reduction. Another requirement You need to make.

So basically wood elf without any requirements just doing whatever he wants beats or is equall to redguard when redguard made lot of moves to benefit from his racials. That sounds more like a burden then a benefit. And You said it Yourself when You've made a statement "redguards is better suited for heavy armor oriented builds, relying on weapon skills". You've forgot to add that they also need to perma block because otherwise wood elf will still beat them. So redguard passive is only good if You're heavy armor , weapon skills relying , perma blocking setup. What a fun race...

JinxxND

thadjarvis wrote: »

Making adrenaline rush proc of all damage permits it's use on DoT and evade style rather than just sustained direct fighting. I mentioned that DW/Bow would technically have a slightly lower uptime due the buff falling off just after beginning a cast time skill initiation. But how much is that really? I haven't looked, but do we see large differences in people's parses as that would confirm or deny if it's really an issue.

If not light attacking between cast time (well all) skills is the root of the uptime problem, it seems odd to get into how races (or anything) compare as the baseline for a balance discussion should include an assumption of playing within the core game mechanics that ZoS assumes when balancing (I would hope).

Not necessarily but it would help with the uptime and getting the full hypothetical 300 flat regen that the redguard can get. It's the same reason why many players will opt for storm fist/bloodspawn over a set like grundwulf for sustain because it's guaranteed sustain at all times that also scales when grundwulf requires constant damage(crit) something that doesn't happen esp when los/kiting/moving just natural ingame mechanics.

Ladislao

JobooAGS wrote: »

So you are perfectly fine with a race that is pigeon holed into using certain skills and even more so, being overall worse at the thing which it is supposed to do? Even for a heavy armor build with mainly weapon skills I’d still choose bosmer over redguard passivewise. The 258 regen will still beat out adrenaline rush and even for many builds the cost reduction too even in an ideal setting as there are still many more stam regen multipliers (You lose only 12% regen going from 5 medium to 2, which is 31 regen on a bosmer) Having more resists and damage is also a HUGE benefit over a race that has none (the 2k stam bonus both races enjoy).
Additionally you are completely missing the fact that you WILL NOT have a direct hit every 5 seconds in most situations. Therefore your 380 regen is actually much much lower.
Meanwhile, unless you hold down rmb or your sprint key your regen is always ticking.

Nord is still better than redguard for destro/resto ults. Their ult gen tops the 8% cost reduction.

I would rather have redguard have less of a condition on its stam restore passive OR a less pigeonholey passive (maybe 5% on all stam skills) OR a damage passive/other buff to martial knowledge if redguard must be pigeonholed.

Plus snare reduction is useless when every stam build has a snare removal/immunity skill.

I said "better suited", you read "pigeon holed".
Yes, 258 regen will beat out adrenaline rush and martial training in many builds. But it will not in many others. Right?
And yes, I cannot uptime adrenaline rush perfectly even in PVE situations. It is obvious so I always write "up to". Basically you have to deal damage every 7 seconds to get base bosmer regen that is not always possible as well. As well as in some situations you cannot release block to get your ticks.

Talking about more resists and penetration, let me speak your words. In ideal situation when you are fighting with someone who has tons of poison damage (otherwise, effectiveness of poison resistance will be pretty low), you have to roll dodge every 6 seconds or every time you want to deal damage to make HUGE benefit from this passive which means another sustain loss. So it's not so good in practice, isn't it?


All this can be discussed endlessly, choosing the most convenient information. Looking at the activity in this topic, I can say that "redguard needs a buff" is not as relevant as you are trying to imagine. Any attempt to race balancing will result in "pigeon holes" because races have to be different which leads to the fact that one race will be 0.1% better than the other in a particular situation. This is exactly what we are talking about.

And thank you @Juhasow for the most constructive reply in this thread. I hope I have revealed my point of view in more detail with this post.

idk

Juhasow wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

idk wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

You also want 100 regen on top of the 950 stamina you get back back every 5 seconds while you're doing direct damage? That would amount to 480 regen while in battle.

That's a lot better than a Breton.

Well the 950 stam every 5 seconds (380 regen, 190 per sec) in reality is far less than that. Bosmer can hit crazy numbers with their 258 SCALABLE regen that procs ALL THE TIME unless blocking or sprinting and can EASILY surpass a redguard’s IDEAL regen.

In combat sustain should out do out of combat sustain. Does that mean adding on 100 more regen to redguard? Maybe not. Does it mean buffing adrenaline rush or martial knowledge? Likely

Not really. Even when doing AoE damage it is easy to weave in LAs to proc the passive just like it was before. I am sure someone can come up with niche situations to support your claim but that is all I can see that would make

Even your comparison to the bosmer is ignoring they have a very niche passive for penetration making your comparison look rather incomplete.

Problem here is You simply wont be able to deal direct dmg excatly every 5 seconds even when in combat. You weave light attacks+skills every 0,9 second in perfect scenario and usually every 1-1,2 second in more realistic scenario. So if cooldown on redguard passive ends like 0,1 sec after Your last attack then You'll have some small downtime on the passive which will stack throughout the fight resulting with realistic regen on redguard being lower then expected 390. Usually on target dummy it's ~350 and in real fights it gets closer to 300. And that is still assuming vast majority of the fight You're non stop attacking the enemy which not always happens.

Not really. Half decent players will be providing two opportunities every 1 to 1.2 seconds.

Yes, that means a player will not be procing the passive at every 5 seconds exactly but one would have to think Zos, and especially Gilliam, is pretty ignorant of combat in this game to have not taken that into consideration when they updated the passives. I for one do not think Gill is obuse to these things as he probably knows more about combat in this game than most players and everyone at Zos.

Problem is that providing 2 oportunities every 1-1,2 second will happen rarely for most of the players in PvE and never in PvP. For example in content like BGs redguards restore per second is arevaring around 100 while in fight. In Pve it's usually ~150 for decent players (slightly more for very good players and less for casuals). So either ZoS knowingly made redguard passive circumstancial or they didn't predict that not every enemy is a target dummy. Both options seems pretty bad for players having redguard characters.

I used to run with a very casual group of players and was able to get them clearing the trials early on in this game in part because they bothered to learn to weave basic attacks into their skills. I also often weave in PvP but that is because it is a habit for me.

Your suggestion that the game should be balanced to a lower skill level just makes those who can even stronger and creates a greater divide between those who can and those who cannot. That is a pretty bad idea. After a few weeks and only two pages on this thread it seem the idea does not have much support. BTW, I have three redguards that I have chosen to keep redguards.

Umm my suggestion ? Where did I suggest anything ? All I said is that currently redguard pretty much sucks and lacks identity in real fights. There was no suggestion that game should be balanced around low tier players lol. And btw there is plenty of was to implement passives the way that will benefit all types of players equally like for example changing redguard passive to proc out of all damage (just an example though not a suggestion).

Umm. You said some players are not able to get 2 opportunities every 1/1/2 second. In the context of saying that in this thread it seems rather evident you are suggesting that the Redguard passive be buffed based on the lesser skilled player that is challenged with weaving basic attacks.

So if you were just saying that out of the blue and not having anything to do with the context of this thread and my related comments then my bad. I just figured there was an actual reason it was mentioned.

I've said quote "problem is that providing 2 oportunities every 1-1,2 second will happen rarely for most of the players in PvE and never in PvP". I never said the reason for that is their skill level. In real combat You'll simply rarely do direct damage every 1-1,2 sec for few minutes straight.

Odd. I had thought that a basic attack was direct damage and since a moderately skilled and practiced player will be weaving attacks before skills then they will be doing direct damage every 1-1/1/2 second. There is a reason why some players do significantly greater damage than others.

Even in PvP I weave LAs often so to say never in PvP is an absolute that is factually flawed. Maybe we just run with group of players as even the more casual guild I run with some does better than what you are claiming for yourself.

I will say I weave LAs always in PvE but less often in PvP, but still do. However, race passives should not be balanced to that lower number and especially to players who chose to not weave much. It becomes OP in other situations.

@Ladislao presents a comparison worth looking at in the post right after this one. It shows the Redguard performing quite well in situations. Zos needs to consider when a player can get the passive to perform at it's best vs when a player cannot get the most out of it due to their chosen playstyle.

It's not about being experienced or not .

You are correct but you keep describing players who are pretty bad. That they rarely land direct damage every 1.5 seconds or less and can never do that in PvP. Players I now across the experience spectrum are better than that. That is based on your words, not mine.

I edited out the rest as I did not see a need to quote. Especially it was clearly pointed out by Ladislao (as I mentioned the post) how the passive benefit some builds more than others (and we can say playstyles) which is similar to what I suggested. As long as you continue to discount the inconvenient fact Ladislao pointed out there is no real reason to continue this discussion.

Juhasow

idk wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

idk wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

You also want 100 regen on top of the 950 stamina you get back back every 5 seconds while you're doing direct damage? That would amount to 480 regen while in battle.

That's a lot better than a Breton.

Well the 950 stam every 5 seconds (380 regen, 190 per sec) in reality is far less than that. Bosmer can hit crazy numbers with their 258 SCALABLE regen that procs ALL THE TIME unless blocking or sprinting and can EASILY surpass a redguard’s IDEAL regen.

In combat sustain should out do out of combat sustain. Does that mean adding on 100 more regen to redguard? Maybe not. Does it mean buffing adrenaline rush or martial knowledge? Likely

Not really. Even when doing AoE damage it is easy to weave in LAs to proc the passive just like it was before. I am sure someone can come up with niche situations to support your claim but that is all I can see that would make

Even your comparison to the bosmer is ignoring they have a very niche passive for penetration making your comparison look rather incomplete.

Problem here is You simply wont be able to deal direct dmg excatly every 5 seconds even when in combat. You weave light attacks+skills every 0,9 second in perfect scenario and usually every 1-1,2 second in more realistic scenario. So if cooldown on redguard passive ends like 0,1 sec after Your last attack then You'll have some small downtime on the passive which will stack throughout the fight resulting with realistic regen on redguard being lower then expected 390. Usually on target dummy it's ~350 and in real fights it gets closer to 300. And that is still assuming vast majority of the fight You're non stop attacking the enemy which not always happens.

Not really. Half decent players will be providing two opportunities every 1 to 1.2 seconds.

Yes, that means a player will not be procing the passive at every 5 seconds exactly but one would have to think Zos, and especially Gilliam, is pretty ignorant of combat in this game to have not taken that into consideration when they updated the passives. I for one do not think Gill is obuse to these things as he probably knows more about combat in this game than most players and everyone at Zos.

Problem is that providing 2 oportunities every 1-1,2 second will happen rarely for most of the players in PvE and never in PvP. For example in content like BGs redguards restore per second is arevaring around 100 while in fight. In Pve it's usually ~150 for decent players (slightly more for very good players and less for casuals). So either ZoS knowingly made redguard passive circumstancial or they didn't predict that not every enemy is a target dummy. Both options seems pretty bad for players having redguard characters.

I used to run with a very casual group of players and was able to get them clearing the trials early on in this game in part because they bothered to learn to weave basic attacks into their skills. I also often weave in PvP but that is because it is a habit for me.

Your suggestion that the game should be balanced to a lower skill level just makes those who can even stronger and creates a greater divide between those who can and those who cannot. That is a pretty bad idea. After a few weeks and only two pages on this thread it seem the idea does not have much support. BTW, I have three redguards that I have chosen to keep redguards.

Umm my suggestion ? Where did I suggest anything ? All I said is that currently redguard pretty much sucks and lacks identity in real fights. There was no suggestion that game should be balanced around low tier players lol. And btw there is plenty of was to implement passives the way that will benefit all types of players equally like for example changing redguard passive to proc out of all damage (just an example though not a suggestion).

Umm. You said some players are not able to get 2 opportunities every 1/1/2 second. In the context of saying that in this thread it seems rather evident you are suggesting that the Redguard passive be buffed based on the lesser skilled player that is challenged with weaving basic attacks.

So if you were just saying that out of the blue and not having anything to do with the context of this thread and my related comments then my bad. I just figured there was an actual reason it was mentioned.

I've said quote "problem is that providing 2 oportunities every 1-1,2 second will happen rarely for most of the players in PvE and never in PvP". I never said the reason for that is their skill level. In real combat You'll simply rarely do direct damage every 1-1,2 sec for few minutes straight.

Odd. I had thought that a basic attack was direct damage and since a moderately skilled and practiced player will be weaving attacks before skills then they will be doing direct damage every 1-1/1/2 second. There is a reason why some players do significantly greater damage than others.

Even in PvP I weave LAs often so to say never in PvP is an absolute that is factually flawed. Maybe we just run with group of players as even the more casual guild I run with some does better than what you are claiming for yourself.

I will say I weave LAs always in PvE but less often in PvP, but still do. However, race passives should not be balanced to that lower number and especially to players who chose to not weave much. It becomes OP in other situations.

@Ladislao presents a comparison worth looking at in the post right after this one. It shows the Redguard performing quite well in situations. Zos needs to consider when a player can get the passive to perform at it's best vs when a player cannot get the most out of it due to their chosen playstyle.

It's not about being experienced or not .

You are correct but you keep describing players who are pretty bad. That they rarely land direct damage every 1.5 seconds or less and can never do that in PvP. Players I now across the experience spectrum are better than that. That is based on your words, not mine.

I edited out the rest as I did not see a need to quote. Especially it was clearly pointed out by Ladislao (as I mentioned the post) how the passive benefit some builds more than others (and we can say playstyles) which is similar to what I suggested. As long as you continue to discount the inconvenient fact Ladislao pointed out there is no real reason to continue this discussion.

Sorry but You have no idea what I am talking about and because of that Your points makes no sense. it's like talking to a brick wall. I say 1 thing and You interpret it in completly different twisted way. Sorry but I cannot talk with someone who lacks basic understandig of what is being said despite multiple explanations. I could now go on and explain once again what I am talking about but it looks like at this point You're like a broken record and what I am saying is not reaching to You and You are in the state where You think You know better what I am saying then me. Once again I never said anything that would suggest redguard passive being skill based and that weaker players have issues with it. You've made this up out of nowhere.

idk

Juhasow wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

idk wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

You also want 100 regen on top of the 950 stamina you get back back every 5 seconds while you're doing direct damage? That would amount to 480 regen while in battle.

That's a lot better than a Breton.

Well the 950 stam every 5 seconds (380 regen, 190 per sec) in reality is far less than that. Bosmer can hit crazy numbers with their 258 SCALABLE regen that procs ALL THE TIME unless blocking or sprinting and can EASILY surpass a redguard’s IDEAL regen.

In combat sustain should out do out of combat sustain. Does that mean adding on 100 more regen to redguard? Maybe not. Does it mean buffing adrenaline rush or martial knowledge? Likely

Not really. Even when doing AoE damage it is easy to weave in LAs to proc the passive just like it was before. I am sure someone can come up with niche situations to support your claim but that is all I can see that would make

Even your comparison to the bosmer is ignoring they have a very niche passive for penetration making your comparison look rather incomplete.

Problem here is You simply wont be able to deal direct dmg excatly every 5 seconds even when in combat. You weave light attacks+skills every 0,9 second in perfect scenario and usually every 1-1,2 second in more realistic scenario. So if cooldown on redguard passive ends like 0,1 sec after Your last attack then You'll have some small downtime on the passive which will stack throughout the fight resulting with realistic regen on redguard being lower then expected 390. Usually on target dummy it's ~350 and in real fights it gets closer to 300. And that is still assuming vast majority of the fight You're non stop attacking the enemy which not always happens.

Not really. Half decent players will be providing two opportunities every 1 to 1.2 seconds.

Yes, that means a player will not be procing the passive at every 5 seconds exactly but one would have to think Zos, and especially Gilliam, is pretty ignorant of combat in this game to have not taken that into consideration when they updated the passives. I for one do not think Gill is obuse to these things as he probably knows more about combat in this game than most players and everyone at Zos.

Problem is that providing 2 oportunities every 1-1,2 second will happen rarely for most of the players in PvE and never in PvP. For example in content like BGs redguards restore per second is arevaring around 100 while in fight. In Pve it's usually ~150 for decent players (slightly more for very good players and less for casuals). So either ZoS knowingly made redguard passive circumstancial or they didn't predict that not every enemy is a target dummy. Both options seems pretty bad for players having redguard characters.

I used to run with a very casual group of players and was able to get them clearing the trials early on in this game in part because they bothered to learn to weave basic attacks into their skills. I also often weave in PvP but that is because it is a habit for me.

Your suggestion that the game should be balanced to a lower skill level just makes those who can even stronger and creates a greater divide between those who can and those who cannot. That is a pretty bad idea. After a few weeks and only two pages on this thread it seem the idea does not have much support. BTW, I have three redguards that I have chosen to keep redguards.

Umm my suggestion ? Where did I suggest anything ? All I said is that currently redguard pretty much sucks and lacks identity in real fights. There was no suggestion that game should be balanced around low tier players lol. And btw there is plenty of was to implement passives the way that will benefit all types of players equally like for example changing redguard passive to proc out of all damage (just an example though not a suggestion).

Umm. You said some players are not able to get 2 opportunities every 1/1/2 second. In the context of saying that in this thread it seems rather evident you are suggesting that the Redguard passive be buffed based on the lesser skilled player that is challenged with weaving basic attacks.

So if you were just saying that out of the blue and not having anything to do with the context of this thread and my related comments then my bad. I just figured there was an actual reason it was mentioned.

I've said quote "problem is that providing 2 oportunities every 1-1,2 second will happen rarely for most of the players in PvE and never in PvP". I never said the reason for that is their skill level. In real combat You'll simply rarely do direct damage every 1-1,2 sec for few minutes straight.

Odd. I had thought that a basic attack was direct damage and since a moderately skilled and practiced player will be weaving attacks before skills then they will be doing direct damage every 1-1/1/2 second. There is a reason why some players do significantly greater damage than others.

Even in PvP I weave LAs often so to say never in PvP is an absolute that is factually flawed. Maybe we just run with group of players as even the more casual guild I run with some does better than what you are claiming for yourself.

I will say I weave LAs always in PvE but less often in PvP, but still do. However, race passives should not be balanced to that lower number and especially to players who chose to not weave much. It becomes OP in other situations.

@Ladislao presents a comparison worth looking at in the post right after this one. It shows the Redguard performing quite well in situations. Zos needs to consider when a player can get the passive to perform at it's best vs when a player cannot get the most out of it due to their chosen playstyle.

It's not about being experienced or not .

You are correct but you keep describing players who are pretty bad. That they rarely land direct damage every 1.5 seconds or less and can never do that in PvP. Players I now across the experience spectrum are better than that. That is based on your words, not mine.

I edited out the rest as I did not see a need to quote. Especially it was clearly pointed out by Ladislao (as I mentioned the post) how the passive benefit some builds more than others (and we can say playstyles) which is similar to what I suggested. As long as you continue to discount the inconvenient fact Ladislao pointed out there is no real reason to continue this discussion.

it's like talking to a brick wall.

Funny how I was thinking the same thing as you dismiss information that is inconvenient to what you want. Since you are suggesting most players are challenged weaving basic attacks into their rotation, which is the only way PvE players could not land direct attacks every 1.5 seconds most of the time, I would not expect you to understand.

I do wish you much luck getting Zos to understand.

thadjarvis

Juhasow wrote: »

Next the comparison You've made. You completly ignore how redguards passive works. UP TO 380 stam regen means basically it'll never be 380 stam regen especially that requirement is to deal ditrect damage excatly every 5 seconds which will never happen in real fights. In good scenarios You'll get it to ~300 and 300 is what wood elf gets just with potion without even counting medium armor , class passives and CPs so even in heavy armor wood elf will outperform redguard. With those mentioned passives wood elf will go up to over 400 regen without any requirements when redguard will stay at ~300 if You meet the requirements. And then wehave redguards weapon abilities cost reduction. Another requirement You need to make.

That's a fair argument. Though consider PvE. Per above Wood Elf gets 400 effective recovery. Very few rotations come under 1,500 stam per second. Supposing half of rotation is weapon skills (Volley + Weapon spammable) is reasonable. That is 160 effective recovery. Per the 300 average PvE assumed above, that is 460 total and a 540 max. So, it can beat Wood Elf (400 from above) if leveraged. Redgaurd's is conditional but higher if player chooses it to be. Wood Elf's mobility passive is not useless in PvE. Seems balanced but that could be wrong.

If it is wrong and not balanced, why change the passive entirely instead of balancing magnitudes. Eg if the snare passive isn't useful, is 20%, 40%, 60%? 100% certainly is. Why not keep the race intact which people have built around? 2019 changes pissed off a lot of ESO users with whipsaw changes (I personally enjoyed the changes). Categorical race changes are potentially the worst because it costs real money or tons of grinding for the user base. May bring in some nice dough for ZoS, but it also has a community cost.

Other races do have build considerations that leverage their passives. Probably all but below are a few:
Cats: critical chance
Argnonian: potion cooldown glyphs
Dark Elf: vampire

Juhasow

idk wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

idk wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

You also want 100 regen on top of the 950 stamina you get back back every 5 seconds while you're doing direct damage? That would amount to 480 regen while in battle.

That's a lot better than a Breton.

Well the 950 stam every 5 seconds (380 regen, 190 per sec) in reality is far less than that. Bosmer can hit crazy numbers with their 258 SCALABLE regen that procs ALL THE TIME unless blocking or sprinting and can EASILY surpass a redguard’s IDEAL regen.

In combat sustain should out do out of combat sustain. Does that mean adding on 100 more regen to redguard? Maybe not. Does it mean buffing adrenaline rush or martial knowledge? Likely

Not really. Even when doing AoE damage it is easy to weave in LAs to proc the passive just like it was before. I am sure someone can come up with niche situations to support your claim but that is all I can see that would make

Even your comparison to the bosmer is ignoring they have a very niche passive for penetration making your comparison look rather incomplete.

Problem here is You simply wont be able to deal direct dmg excatly every 5 seconds even when in combat. You weave light attacks+skills every 0,9 second in perfect scenario and usually every 1-1,2 second in more realistic scenario. So if cooldown on redguard passive ends like 0,1 sec after Your last attack then You'll have some small downtime on the passive which will stack throughout the fight resulting with realistic regen on redguard being lower then expected 390. Usually on target dummy it's ~350 and in real fights it gets closer to 300. And that is still assuming vast majority of the fight You're non stop attacking the enemy which not always happens.

Not really. Half decent players will be providing two opportunities every 1 to 1.2 seconds.

Yes, that means a player will not be procing the passive at every 5 seconds exactly but one would have to think Zos, and especially Gilliam, is pretty ignorant of combat in this game to have not taken that into consideration when they updated the passives. I for one do not think Gill is obuse to these things as he probably knows more about combat in this game than most players and everyone at Zos.

Problem is that providing 2 oportunities every 1-1,2 second will happen rarely for most of the players in PvE and never in PvP. For example in content like BGs redguards restore per second is arevaring around 100 while in fight. In Pve it's usually ~150 for decent players (slightly more for very good players and less for casuals). So either ZoS knowingly made redguard passive circumstancial or they didn't predict that not every enemy is a target dummy. Both options seems pretty bad for players having redguard characters.

I used to run with a very casual group of players and was able to get them clearing the trials early on in this game in part because they bothered to learn to weave basic attacks into their skills. I also often weave in PvP but that is because it is a habit for me.

Your suggestion that the game should be balanced to a lower skill level just makes those who can even stronger and creates a greater divide between those who can and those who cannot. That is a pretty bad idea. After a few weeks and only two pages on this thread it seem the idea does not have much support. BTW, I have three redguards that I have chosen to keep redguards.

Umm my suggestion ? Where did I suggest anything ? All I said is that currently redguard pretty much sucks and lacks identity in real fights. There was no suggestion that game should be balanced around low tier players lol. And btw there is plenty of was to implement passives the way that will benefit all types of players equally like for example changing redguard passive to proc out of all damage (just an example though not a suggestion).

Umm. You said some players are not able to get 2 opportunities every 1/1/2 second. In the context of saying that in this thread it seems rather evident you are suggesting that the Redguard passive be buffed based on the lesser skilled player that is challenged with weaving basic attacks.

So if you were just saying that out of the blue and not having anything to do with the context of this thread and my related comments then my bad. I just figured there was an actual reason it was mentioned.

I've said quote "problem is that providing 2 oportunities every 1-1,2 second will happen rarely for most of the players in PvE and never in PvP". I never said the reason for that is their skill level. In real combat You'll simply rarely do direct damage every 1-1,2 sec for few minutes straight.

Odd. I had thought that a basic attack was direct damage and since a moderately skilled and practiced player will be weaving attacks before skills then they will be doing direct damage every 1-1/1/2 second. There is a reason why some players do significantly greater damage than others.

Even in PvP I weave LAs often so to say never in PvP is an absolute that is factually flawed. Maybe we just run with group of players as even the more casual guild I run with some does better than what you are claiming for yourself.

I will say I weave LAs always in PvE but less often in PvP, but still do. However, race passives should not be balanced to that lower number and especially to players who chose to not weave much. It becomes OP in other situations.

@Ladislao presents a comparison worth looking at in the post right after this one. It shows the Redguard performing quite well in situations. Zos needs to consider when a player can get the passive to perform at it's best vs when a player cannot get the most out of it due to their chosen playstyle.

It's not about being experienced or not .

You are correct but you keep describing players who are pretty bad. That they rarely land direct damage every 1.5 seconds or less and can never do that in PvP. Players I now across the experience spectrum are better than that. That is based on your words, not mine.

I edited out the rest as I did not see a need to quote. Especially it was clearly pointed out by Ladislao (as I mentioned the post) how the passive benefit some builds more than others (and we can say playstyles) which is similar to what I suggested. As long as you continue to discount the inconvenient fact Ladislao pointed out there is no real reason to continue this discussion.

it's like talking to a brick wall.

Funny how I was thinking the same thing as you dismiss information that is inconvenient to what you want. Since you are suggesting most players are challenged weaving basic attacks into their rotation, which is the only way PvE players could not land direct attacks every 1.5 seconds most of the time, I would not expect you to understand.

I do wish you much luck getting Zos to understand.

Like seriously I dont even understand Your point. You post that people will weave light attack+skill every 1-1,2 sec but here is what I wrote in one of my previous posts : "You weave light attacks+skills every 0,9 second in perfect scenario and usually every 1-1,2 second in more realistic scenario".

And when I've said "Problem is that providing 2 oportunities every 1-1,2 second will happen rarely for most of the players in PvE and never in PvP" I had in mind that in real fights on average You wont be doing direct damage excatly every 5 seconds to the split of second because sometimes mechanics wil force You to stop doing damage. And it doesnt matter wheter You're pro or casual. You'll also not always hit exact interval of 5 seconds but sometimes Your interval inbetween procs will be for example 5,5 sec due to global cooldowns. So for example sometimes when cooldown on redguard proc ends but ability or light attack global cooldown ended 0,1 sec earlier despite the fact You're perfectly weaving Your redguard passive will proc with 0,6 sec delay and that will cause small downtime on the redguard passive but those small downtimes will stack throughout the fight lowering the final result You'll get from the passive. That plus mechanics during which You're not actively attacking enemy will result with redguard passive getting something around 300 not 390 stam regen.

Seriously I dont have any idea where You've got Your line of argumentation that I am saying that low tier players have issues with proccing that passive. I never said such a thing or I was never advocating for redguard passive to be changed because of low tier players.

Juhasow

thadjarvis wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Next the comparison You've made. You completly ignore how redguards passive works. UP TO 380 stam regen means basically it'll never be 380 stam regen especially that requirement is to deal ditrect damage excatly every 5 seconds which will never happen in real fights. In good scenarios You'll get it to ~300 and 300 is what wood elf gets just with potion without even counting medium armor , class passives and CPs so even in heavy armor wood elf will outperform redguard. With those mentioned passives wood elf will go up to over 400 regen without any requirements when redguard will stay at ~300 if You meet the requirements. And then wehave redguards weapon abilities cost reduction. Another requirement You need to make.

That's a fair argument. Though consider PvE. Per above Wood Elf gets 400 effective recovery. Very few rotations come under 1,500 stam per second. Supposing half of rotation is weapon skills (Volley + Weapon spammable) is reasonable. That is 160 effective recovery. Per the 300 average PvE assumed above, that is 460 total and a 540 max. So, it can beat Wood Elf (400 from above) if leveraged. Redgaurd's is conditional but higher if player chooses it to be. Wood Elf's mobility passive is not useless in PvE. Seems balanced but that could be wrong.

If it is wrong and not balanced, why change the passive entirely instead of balancing magnitudes. Eg if the snare passive isn't useful, is 20%, 40%, 60%? 100% certainly is. Why not keep the race intact which people have built around? 2019 changes pissed off a lot of ESO users with whipsaw changes (I personally enjoyed the changes). Categorical race changes are potentially the worst because it costs real money or tons of grinding for the user base. May bring in some nice dough for ZoS, but it also has a community cost.

Other races do have build considerations that leverage their passives. Probably all but below are a few:
Cats: critical chance
Argnonian: potion cooldown glyphs
Dark Elf: vampire

Ok @thadjarvis unfortunatelly things arent looking so colorfull as You described. First of all when it comes to wood elf I've said "over 400" not "excatly 400". I've used term "over 400" because based on the class and type of content value will change because different classes have different percentage bonuses to stamina regen and in different groups You can get different levels of supportive bonuses. Depends on class in PvE when You take into consideration all percentage bonuses that are present for PvE stamina DD You can get up to 440-490 stamina regen from wood elf passive because You can boost up Your numeric stamina regen by up to 70-90% through multiple percentage bonuses. And that is non conditional regen which allows You to use any rotation You want.

Now that 8% reduction You've mentioned to be equall to 160 stam regen. Lets analyze that number. And to analyze it lets use stamsorc because he have by far the most weapon ability dense rotation in the game. I have a dummy parse where during 4 minutes of a fight I've used 81 wrecking blows , 33 executioners and 15 endless hails. Redguard saves 162 stam on wrecking blow , 99 stam on executioner and 270 stam on endless hail. That brings us around 20,4k stamina saved during 240 seconds which is 85/sec which is equivalent of 170 regen. However this is the most weapon ability dense rotation in the game that was performed on target dummy so that 170 is a value that You'll unlikely see in real fight scenario. At best You can expect something like 130-150 and if You'll decide to play class other then some heavily weapon relying one it'll be drastically less.

So now we calculated that in real fights on class like stamsorc with heavily weapon relying rotation two passives of redguard can give us something like 450-500 stam regen with 500 being value we'll most propably never see. Lets calculate how much wood elfs 1 passive can give us. So now lets see how many percentage stamina regen passives stamsorc can get acces to. We have 20% from potion , 20% from sorc passive , 28% from medium armor , ~12% from CPs and occasionally 10% from minor endurance if somebody is using circle of protection in the group or if we have rally/forward momentum for some reason. That puts us at 80-90% stamina regen buffs. Multiply it by 258 regen that wood elf have and we're getting 460-490 stamina regen from 1 wood elf passive.

So 1 wood elfs passve without any special requirements is comparable to 2 redguards passives that have requirements to make. And wood elfs other remaining passives easily beats redguards 15% snare reduction. There is no denying who is a clear winner here. Redguard design atm is very underwhelming and there is no niche for redguard where he could shine.

Someone can say "but hey redguard is the best for heavy armor perma blocking weapon relying targets" , but guess what imperial is far better at this because he have 3% of ALL cost reductions including block , dodge , all abilities and all ultimates and he can restore 333 magicka stamina and hp every 5 sec by doing direct damage (same requirement like redguard) and he have both 2k stam (same as redguard) plus 2k health so imperial is basically better version of redguard. Redguard heavily lacks identity and at every aspect of the game he is either equall or inferior to other races , never better then them. There is no instance where his passives would leverage him over others. The only instance where redguard shines is standing still and spamming 1 weapon spammable ability for few minutes straight lol. And even then he is better then wood elf just a tiny bit.

Oh and dark elf is not that much better for vampires then nord or breton. Nord and breton gives You more raw damage reduction from fire then dunmer the only benefit of dunmer is resistance to burning status effect but nord for example also helps surviving dawnbreakers and when burning status effect is applied to breton his spell resistance goes up to 4,6k which is twice of what dunmer have and spell resistance works against all magic based damage not just flame damage.

JobooAGS

Juhasow wrote: »

thadjarvis wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Next the comparison You've made. You completly ignore how redguards passive works. UP TO 380 stam regen means basically it'll never be 380 stam regen especially that requirement is to deal ditrect damage excatly every 5 seconds which will never happen in real fights. In good scenarios You'll get it to ~300 and 300 is what wood elf gets just with potion without even counting medium armor , class passives and CPs so even in heavy armor wood elf will outperform redguard. With those mentioned passives wood elf will go up to over 400 regen without any requirements when redguard will stay at ~300 if You meet the requirements. And then wehave redguards weapon abilities cost reduction. Another requirement You need to make.

That's a fair argument. Though consider PvE. Per above Wood Elf gets 400 effective recovery. Very few rotations come under 1,500 stam per second. Supposing half of rotation is weapon skills (Volley + Weapon spammable) is reasonable. That is 160 effective recovery. Per the 300 average PvE assumed above, that is 460 total and a 540 max. So, it can beat Wood Elf (400 from above) if leveraged. Redgaurd's is conditional but higher if player chooses it to be. Wood Elf's mobility passive is not useless in PvE. Seems balanced but that could be wrong.

If it is wrong and not balanced, why change the passive entirely instead of balancing magnitudes. Eg if the snare passive isn't useful, is 20%, 40%, 60%? 100% certainly is. Why not keep the race intact which people have built around? 2019 changes pissed off a lot of ESO users with whipsaw changes (I personally enjoyed the changes). Categorical race changes are potentially the worst because it costs real money or tons of grinding for the user base. May bring in some nice dough for ZoS, but it also has a community cost.

Other races do have build considerations that leverage their passives. Probably all but below are a few:
Cats: critical chance
Argnonian: potion cooldown glyphs
Dark Elf: vampire

Ok @thadjarvis unfortunatelly things arent looking so colorfull as You described. First of all when it comes to wood elf I've said "over 400" not "excatly 400". I've used term "over 400" because based on the class and type of content value will change because different classes have different percentage bonuses to stamina regen and in different groups You can get different levels of supportive bonuses. Depends on class in PvE when You take into consideration all percentage bonuses that are present for PvE stamina DD You can get up to 440-490 stamina regen from wood elf passive because You can boost up Your numeric stamina regen by up to 70-90% through multiple percentage bonuses. And that is non conditional regen which allows You to use any rotation You want.

Now that 8% reduction You've mentioned to be equall to 160 stam regen. Lets analyze that number. And to analyze it lets use stamsorc because he have by far the most weapon ability dense rotation in the game. I have a dummy parse where during 4 minutes of a fight I've used 81 wrecking blows , 33 executioners and 15 endless hails. Redguard saves 162 stam on wrecking blow , 99 stam on executioner and 270 stam on endless hail. That brings us around 20,4k stamina saved during 240 seconds which is 85/sec which is equivalent of 170 regen. However this is the most weapon ability dense rotation in the game that was performed on target dummy so that 170 is a value that You'll unlikely see in real fight scenario. At best You can expect something like 130-150 and if You'll decide to play class other then some heavily weapon relying one it'll be drastically less.

So now we calculated that in real fights on class like stamsorc with heavily weapon relying rotation two passives of redguard can give us something like 450-500 stam regen with 500 being value we'll most propably never see. Lets calculate how much wood elfs 1 passive can give us. So now lets see how many percentage stamina regen passives stamsorc can get acces to. We have 20% from potion , 20% from sorc passive , 28% from medium armor , ~12% from CPs and occasionally 10% from minor endurance if somebody is using circle of protection in the group or if we have rally/forward momentum for some reason. That puts us at 80-90% stamina regen buffs. Multiply it by 258 regen that wood elf have and we're getting 460-490 stamina regen from 1 wood elf passive.

So 1 wood elfs passve without any special requirements is comparable to 2 redguards passives that have requirements to make. And wood elfs other remaining passives easily beats redguards 15% snare reduction. There is no denying who is a clear winner here. Redguard design atm is very underwhelming and there is no niche for redguard where he could shine.

Someone can say "but hey redguard is the best for heavy armor perma blocking weapon relying targets" , but guess what imperial is far better at this because he have 3% of ALL cost reductions including block , dodge , all abilities and all ultimates and he can restore 333 magicka stamina and hp every 5 sec by doing direct damage (same requirement like redguard) and he have both 2k stam (same as redguard) plus 2k health so imperial is basically better version of redguard. Redguard heavily lacks identity and at every aspect of the game he is either equall or inferior to other races , never better then them. There is no instance where his passives would leverage him over others. The only instance where redguard shines is standing still and spamming 1 weapon spammable ability for few minutes straight lol. And even then he is better then wood elf just a tiny bit.

Oh and dark elf is not that much better for vampires then nord or breton. Nord and breton gives You more raw damage reduction from fire then dunmer the only benefit of dunmer is resistance to burning status effect but nord for example also helps surviving dawnbreakers and when burning status effect is applied to breton his spell resistance goes up to 4,6k which is twice of what dunmer have and spell resistance works against all magic based damage not just flame damage.

Totally agree, this is why I ask the question: “unless you are stubborn AF like myself, why would anyone in their right mind go redguard? Whatever build you are playing as, another race does it better and more.”

thadjarvis

@Juhasow
Thanks for actually doing a fair baseline test to provide data. The conclusions are fair. My primary point is not whether Redguard needs a buff, but if it does why not modify the value rather than changing the dynamics of how it works.

idk

Juhasow wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

idk wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

You also want 100 regen on top of the 950 stamina you get back back every 5 seconds while you're doing direct damage? That would amount to 480 regen while in battle.

That's a lot better than a Breton.

Well the 950 stam every 5 seconds (380 regen, 190 per sec) in reality is far less than that. Bosmer can hit crazy numbers with their 258 SCALABLE regen that procs ALL THE TIME unless blocking or sprinting and can EASILY surpass a redguard’s IDEAL regen.

In combat sustain should out do out of combat sustain. Does that mean adding on 100 more regen to redguard? Maybe not. Does it mean buffing adrenaline rush or martial knowledge? Likely

Not really. Even when doing AoE damage it is easy to weave in LAs to proc the passive just like it was before. I am sure someone can come up with niche situations to support your claim but that is all I can see that would make

Even your comparison to the bosmer is ignoring they have a very niche passive for penetration making your comparison look rather incomplete.

Problem here is You simply wont be able to deal direct dmg excatly every 5 seconds even when in combat. You weave light attacks+skills every 0,9 second in perfect scenario and usually every 1-1,2 second in more realistic scenario. So if cooldown on redguard passive ends like 0,1 sec after Your last attack then You'll have some small downtime on the passive which will stack throughout the fight resulting with realistic regen on redguard being lower then expected 390. Usually on target dummy it's ~350 and in real fights it gets closer to 300. And that is still assuming vast majority of the fight You're non stop attacking the enemy which not always happens.

Not really. Half decent players will be providing two opportunities every 1 to 1.2 seconds.

Yes, that means a player will not be procing the passive at every 5 seconds exactly but one would have to think Zos, and especially Gilliam, is pretty ignorant of combat in this game to have not taken that into consideration when they updated the passives. I for one do not think Gill is obuse to these things as he probably knows more about combat in this game than most players and everyone at Zos.

Problem is that providing 2 oportunities every 1-1,2 second will happen rarely for most of the players in PvE and never in PvP. For example in content like BGs redguards restore per second is arevaring around 100 while in fight. In Pve it's usually ~150 for decent players (slightly more for very good players and less for casuals). So either ZoS knowingly made redguard passive circumstancial or they didn't predict that not every enemy is a target dummy. Both options seems pretty bad for players having redguard characters.

I used to run with a very casual group of players and was able to get them clearing the trials early on in this game in part because they bothered to learn to weave basic attacks into their skills. I also often weave in PvP but that is because it is a habit for me.

Your suggestion that the game should be balanced to a lower skill level just makes those who can even stronger and creates a greater divide between those who can and those who cannot. That is a pretty bad idea. After a few weeks and only two pages on this thread it seem the idea does not have much support. BTW, I have three redguards that I have chosen to keep redguards.

Umm my suggestion ? Where did I suggest anything ? All I said is that currently redguard pretty much sucks and lacks identity in real fights. There was no suggestion that game should be balanced around low tier players lol. And btw there is plenty of was to implement passives the way that will benefit all types of players equally like for example changing redguard passive to proc out of all damage (just an example though not a suggestion).

Umm. You said some players are not able to get 2 opportunities every 1/1/2 second. In the context of saying that in this thread it seems rather evident you are suggesting that the Redguard passive be buffed based on the lesser skilled player that is challenged with weaving basic attacks.

So if you were just saying that out of the blue and not having anything to do with the context of this thread and my related comments then my bad. I just figured there was an actual reason it was mentioned.

I've said quote "problem is that providing 2 oportunities every 1-1,2 second will happen rarely for most of the players in PvE and never in PvP". I never said the reason for that is their skill level. In real combat You'll simply rarely do direct damage every 1-1,2 sec for few minutes straight.

Odd. I had thought that a basic attack was direct damage and since a moderately skilled and practiced player will be weaving attacks before skills then they will be doing direct damage every 1-1/1/2 second. There is a reason why some players do significantly greater damage than others.

Even in PvP I weave LAs often so to say never in PvP is an absolute that is factually flawed. Maybe we just run with group of players as even the more casual guild I run with some does better than what you are claiming for yourself.

I will say I weave LAs always in PvE but less often in PvP, but still do. However, race passives should not be balanced to that lower number and especially to players who chose to not weave much. It becomes OP in other situations.

@Ladislao presents a comparison worth looking at in the post right after this one. It shows the Redguard performing quite well in situations. Zos needs to consider when a player can get the passive to perform at it's best vs when a player cannot get the most out of it due to their chosen playstyle.

It's not about being experienced or not .

You are correct but you keep describing players who are pretty bad. That they rarely land direct damage every 1.5 seconds or less and can never do that in PvP. Players I now across the experience spectrum are better than that. That is based on your words, not mine.

I edited out the rest as I did not see a need to quote. Especially it was clearly pointed out by Ladislao (as I mentioned the post) how the passive benefit some builds more than others (and we can say playstyles) which is similar to what I suggested. As long as you continue to discount the inconvenient fact Ladislao pointed out there is no real reason to continue this discussion.

it's like talking to a brick wall.

Funny how I was thinking the same thing as you dismiss information that is inconvenient to what you want. Since you are suggesting most players are challenged weaving basic attacks into their rotation, which is the only way PvE players could not land direct attacks every 1.5 seconds most of the time, I would not expect you to understand.

I do wish you much luck getting Zos to understand.

Like seriously I dont even understand Your point. You post that people will weave light attack+skill every 1-1,2 sec but here is what I wrote in one of my previous posts : "You weave light attacks+skills every 0,9 second in perfect scenario and usually every 1-1,2 second in more realistic scenario".

I realize that and do not expect you to understand after our extended back and forth. I will explain it one last time though.

A skilled and practiced player will hit their weave of LA + skill in the smallest time feasible because they have honed their skill and practiced their rotation. As I have said, it is about player skill. It is why there is a portion of the player base that can out dps most of the player base by a great margin.

I understand the point you are speaking to, the ability and skill level of the average player and that is fine. I expect you are correct when speaking about that group of players. However, as I have already stated, this type of passive should not balanced to that average scenario as it would just make that more skilled player more powerful.

Anyhow, enjoy the game and have a good day.

Juhasow

idk wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

idk wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

You also want 100 regen on top of the 950 stamina you get back back every 5 seconds while you're doing direct damage? That would amount to 480 regen while in battle.

That's a lot better than a Breton.

Well the 950 stam every 5 seconds (380 regen, 190 per sec) in reality is far less than that. Bosmer can hit crazy numbers with their 258 SCALABLE regen that procs ALL THE TIME unless blocking or sprinting and can EASILY surpass a redguard’s IDEAL regen.

In combat sustain should out do out of combat sustain. Does that mean adding on 100 more regen to redguard? Maybe not. Does it mean buffing adrenaline rush or martial knowledge? Likely

Not really. Even when doing AoE damage it is easy to weave in LAs to proc the passive just like it was before. I am sure someone can come up with niche situations to support your claim but that is all I can see that would make

Even your comparison to the bosmer is ignoring they have a very niche passive for penetration making your comparison look rather incomplete.

Problem here is You simply wont be able to deal direct dmg excatly every 5 seconds even when in combat. You weave light attacks+skills every 0,9 second in perfect scenario and usually every 1-1,2 second in more realistic scenario. So if cooldown on redguard passive ends like 0,1 sec after Your last attack then You'll have some small downtime on the passive which will stack throughout the fight resulting with realistic regen on redguard being lower then expected 390. Usually on target dummy it's ~350 and in real fights it gets closer to 300. And that is still assuming vast majority of the fight You're non stop attacking the enemy which not always happens.

Not really. Half decent players will be providing two opportunities every 1 to 1.2 seconds.

Yes, that means a player will not be procing the passive at every 5 seconds exactly but one would have to think Zos, and especially Gilliam, is pretty ignorant of combat in this game to have not taken that into consideration when they updated the passives. I for one do not think Gill is obuse to these things as he probably knows more about combat in this game than most players and everyone at Zos.

Problem is that providing 2 oportunities every 1-1,2 second will happen rarely for most of the players in PvE and never in PvP. For example in content like BGs redguards restore per second is arevaring around 100 while in fight. In Pve it's usually ~150 for decent players (slightly more for very good players and less for casuals). So either ZoS knowingly made redguard passive circumstancial or they didn't predict that not every enemy is a target dummy. Both options seems pretty bad for players having redguard characters.

I used to run with a very casual group of players and was able to get them clearing the trials early on in this game in part because they bothered to learn to weave basic attacks into their skills. I also often weave in PvP but that is because it is a habit for me.

Your suggestion that the game should be balanced to a lower skill level just makes those who can even stronger and creates a greater divide between those who can and those who cannot. That is a pretty bad idea. After a few weeks and only two pages on this thread it seem the idea does not have much support. BTW, I have three redguards that I have chosen to keep redguards.

Umm my suggestion ? Where did I suggest anything ? All I said is that currently redguard pretty much sucks and lacks identity in real fights. There was no suggestion that game should be balanced around low tier players lol. And btw there is plenty of was to implement passives the way that will benefit all types of players equally like for example changing redguard passive to proc out of all damage (just an example though not a suggestion).

Umm. You said some players are not able to get 2 opportunities every 1/1/2 second. In the context of saying that in this thread it seems rather evident you are suggesting that the Redguard passive be buffed based on the lesser skilled player that is challenged with weaving basic attacks.

So if you were just saying that out of the blue and not having anything to do with the context of this thread and my related comments then my bad. I just figured there was an actual reason it was mentioned.

I've said quote "problem is that providing 2 oportunities every 1-1,2 second will happen rarely for most of the players in PvE and never in PvP". I never said the reason for that is their skill level. In real combat You'll simply rarely do direct damage every 1-1,2 sec for few minutes straight.

Odd. I had thought that a basic attack was direct damage and since a moderately skilled and practiced player will be weaving attacks before skills then they will be doing direct damage every 1-1/1/2 second. There is a reason why some players do significantly greater damage than others.

Even in PvP I weave LAs often so to say never in PvP is an absolute that is factually flawed. Maybe we just run with group of players as even the more casual guild I run with some does better than what you are claiming for yourself.

I will say I weave LAs always in PvE but less often in PvP, but still do. However, race passives should not be balanced to that lower number and especially to players who chose to not weave much. It becomes OP in other situations.

@Ladislao presents a comparison worth looking at in the post right after this one. It shows the Redguard performing quite well in situations. Zos needs to consider when a player can get the passive to perform at it's best vs when a player cannot get the most out of it due to their chosen playstyle.

It's not about being experienced or not .

You are correct but you keep describing players who are pretty bad. That they rarely land direct damage every 1.5 seconds or less and can never do that in PvP. Players I now across the experience spectrum are better than that. That is based on your words, not mine.

I edited out the rest as I did not see a need to quote. Especially it was clearly pointed out by Ladislao (as I mentioned the post) how the passive benefit some builds more than others (and we can say playstyles) which is similar to what I suggested. As long as you continue to discount the inconvenient fact Ladislao pointed out there is no real reason to continue this discussion.

it's like talking to a brick wall.

Funny how I was thinking the same thing as you dismiss information that is inconvenient to what you want. Since you are suggesting most players are challenged weaving basic attacks into their rotation, which is the only way PvE players could not land direct attacks every 1.5 seconds most of the time, I would not expect you to understand.

I do wish you much luck getting Zos to understand.

Like seriously I dont even understand Your point. You post that people will weave light attack+skill every 1-1,2 sec but here is what I wrote in one of my previous posts : "You weave light attacks+skills every 0,9 second in perfect scenario and usually every 1-1,2 second in more realistic scenario".

I realize that and do not expect you to understand after our extended back and forth. I will explain it one last time though.

A skilled and practiced player will hit their weave of LA + skill in the smallest time feasible because they have honed their skill and practiced their rotation. As I have said, it is about player skill. It is why there is a portion of the player base that can out dps most of the player base by a great margin.

I understand the point you are speaking to, the ability and skill level of the average player and that is fine. I expect you are correct when speaking about that group of players. However, as I have already stated, this type of passive should not balanced to that average scenario as it would just make that more skilled player more powerful.

Anyhow, enjoy the game and have a good day.

Ok lets make few things clear. i understand Your point. it's flawed and have nothing to do with the main topic. You dont understand my point and You base Your argumentaion on not understanding what I am saying and because of that Your point is simply flawed , out of context and hold no cennection to what I've said in any of my previous comments.

That being said I no longer see a point to discuss that with You further because afte explaining You multiple times like to a 6 years old child what I ment and failing I think it's simply impossible to explain You what I mean because You either are blured by Your agenda or have issues with understanding base math. Once again skill of players have nothing to do with anything I've said and I never used player experience as an argument. it's completly not connected to any points of this thread and is no argument for anything here.

idk

Juhasow wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

idk wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

You also want 100 regen on top of the 950 stamina you get back back every 5 seconds while you're doing direct damage? That would amount to 480 regen while in battle.

That's a lot better than a Breton.

Well the 950 stam every 5 seconds (380 regen, 190 per sec) in reality is far less than that. Bosmer can hit crazy numbers with their 258 SCALABLE regen that procs ALL THE TIME unless blocking or sprinting and can EASILY surpass a redguard’s IDEAL regen.

In combat sustain should out do out of combat sustain. Does that mean adding on 100 more regen to redguard? Maybe not. Does it mean buffing adrenaline rush or martial knowledge? Likely

Not really. Even when doing AoE damage it is easy to weave in LAs to proc the passive just like it was before. I am sure someone can come up with niche situations to support your claim but that is all I can see that would make

Even your comparison to the bosmer is ignoring they have a very niche passive for penetration making your comparison look rather incomplete.

Problem here is You simply wont be able to deal direct dmg excatly every 5 seconds even when in combat. You weave light attacks+skills every 0,9 second in perfect scenario and usually every 1-1,2 second in more realistic scenario. So if cooldown on redguard passive ends like 0,1 sec after Your last attack then You'll have some small downtime on the passive which will stack throughout the fight resulting with realistic regen on redguard being lower then expected 390. Usually on target dummy it's ~350 and in real fights it gets closer to 300. And that is still assuming vast majority of the fight You're non stop attacking the enemy which not always happens.

Not really. Half decent players will be providing two opportunities every 1 to 1.2 seconds.

Yes, that means a player will not be procing the passive at every 5 seconds exactly but one would have to think Zos, and especially Gilliam, is pretty ignorant of combat in this game to have not taken that into consideration when they updated the passives. I for one do not think Gill is obuse to these things as he probably knows more about combat in this game than most players and everyone at Zos.

Problem is that providing 2 oportunities every 1-1,2 second will happen rarely for most of the players in PvE and never in PvP. For example in content like BGs redguards restore per second is arevaring around 100 while in fight. In Pve it's usually ~150 for decent players (slightly more for very good players and less for casuals). So either ZoS knowingly made redguard passive circumstancial or they didn't predict that not every enemy is a target dummy. Both options seems pretty bad for players having redguard characters.

I used to run with a very casual group of players and was able to get them clearing the trials early on in this game in part because they bothered to learn to weave basic attacks into their skills. I also often weave in PvP but that is because it is a habit for me.

Your suggestion that the game should be balanced to a lower skill level just makes those who can even stronger and creates a greater divide between those who can and those who cannot. That is a pretty bad idea. After a few weeks and only two pages on this thread it seem the idea does not have much support. BTW, I have three redguards that I have chosen to keep redguards.

Umm my suggestion ? Where did I suggest anything ? All I said is that currently redguard pretty much sucks and lacks identity in real fights. There was no suggestion that game should be balanced around low tier players lol. And btw there is plenty of was to implement passives the way that will benefit all types of players equally like for example changing redguard passive to proc out of all damage (just an example though not a suggestion).

Umm. You said some players are not able to get 2 opportunities every 1/1/2 second. In the context of saying that in this thread it seems rather evident you are suggesting that the Redguard passive be buffed based on the lesser skilled player that is challenged with weaving basic attacks.

So if you were just saying that out of the blue and not having anything to do with the context of this thread and my related comments then my bad. I just figured there was an actual reason it was mentioned.

I've said quote "problem is that providing 2 oportunities every 1-1,2 second will happen rarely for most of the players in PvE and never in PvP". I never said the reason for that is their skill level. In real combat You'll simply rarely do direct damage every 1-1,2 sec for few minutes straight.

Odd. I had thought that a basic attack was direct damage and since a moderately skilled and practiced player will be weaving attacks before skills then they will be doing direct damage every 1-1/1/2 second. There is a reason why some players do significantly greater damage than others.

Even in PvP I weave LAs often so to say never in PvP is an absolute that is factually flawed. Maybe we just run with group of players as even the more casual guild I run with some does better than what you are claiming for yourself.

I will say I weave LAs always in PvE but less often in PvP, but still do. However, race passives should not be balanced to that lower number and especially to players who chose to not weave much. It becomes OP in other situations.

@Ladislao presents a comparison worth looking at in the post right after this one. It shows the Redguard performing quite well in situations. Zos needs to consider when a player can get the passive to perform at it's best vs when a player cannot get the most out of it due to their chosen playstyle.

It's not about being experienced or not .

You are correct but you keep describing players who are pretty bad. That they rarely land direct damage every 1.5 seconds or less and can never do that in PvP. Players I now across the experience spectrum are better than that. That is based on your words, not mine.

I edited out the rest as I did not see a need to quote. Especially it was clearly pointed out by Ladislao (as I mentioned the post) how the passive benefit some builds more than others (and we can say playstyles) which is similar to what I suggested. As long as you continue to discount the inconvenient fact Ladislao pointed out there is no real reason to continue this discussion.

it's like talking to a brick wall.

Funny how I was thinking the same thing as you dismiss information that is inconvenient to what you want. Since you are suggesting most players are challenged weaving basic attacks into their rotation, which is the only way PvE players could not land direct attacks every 1.5 seconds most of the time, I would not expect you to understand.

I do wish you much luck getting Zos to understand.

Like seriously I dont even understand Your point. You post that people will weave light attack+skill every 1-1,2 sec but here is what I wrote in one of my previous posts : "You weave light attacks+skills every 0,9 second in perfect scenario and usually every 1-1,2 second in more realistic scenario".

I realize that and do not expect you to understand after our extended back and forth. I will explain it one last time though.

A skilled and practiced player will hit their weave of LA + skill in the smallest time feasible because they have honed their skill and practiced their rotation. As I have said, it is about player skill. It is why there is a portion of the player base that can out dps most of the player base by a great margin.

I understand the point you are speaking to, the ability and skill level of the average player and that is fine. I expect you are correct when speaking about that group of players. However, as I have already stated, this type of passive should not balanced to that average scenario as it would just make that more skilled player more powerful.

Anyhow, enjoy the game and have a good day.

Ok lets make few things clear. i understand Your point. it's flawed and have nothing to do with the main topic. You dont understand my point and You base Your argumentaion on not understanding what I am saying and because of that Your point is simply flawed , out of context and hold no cennection to what I've said in any of my previous comments.

Umm. Absolutely not the case.

All you are doing here is creating a straw man argument since we are in disagreement where as my comments are about how things are in game.

Juhasow

idk wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

idk wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

You also want 100 regen on top of the 950 stamina you get back back every 5 seconds while you're doing direct damage? That would amount to 480 regen while in battle.

That's a lot better than a Breton.

Well the 950 stam every 5 seconds (380 regen, 190 per sec) in reality is far less than that. Bosmer can hit crazy numbers with their 258 SCALABLE regen that procs ALL THE TIME unless blocking or sprinting and can EASILY surpass a redguard’s IDEAL regen.

In combat sustain should out do out of combat sustain. Does that mean adding on 100 more regen to redguard? Maybe not. Does it mean buffing adrenaline rush or martial knowledge? Likely

Not really. Even when doing AoE damage it is easy to weave in LAs to proc the passive just like it was before. I am sure someone can come up with niche situations to support your claim but that is all I can see that would make

Even your comparison to the bosmer is ignoring they have a very niche passive for penetration making your comparison look rather incomplete.

Problem here is You simply wont be able to deal direct dmg excatly every 5 seconds even when in combat. You weave light attacks+skills every 0,9 second in perfect scenario and usually every 1-1,2 second in more realistic scenario. So if cooldown on redguard passive ends like 0,1 sec after Your last attack then You'll have some small downtime on the passive which will stack throughout the fight resulting with realistic regen on redguard being lower then expected 390. Usually on target dummy it's ~350 and in real fights it gets closer to 300. And that is still assuming vast majority of the fight You're non stop attacking the enemy which not always happens.

Not really. Half decent players will be providing two opportunities every 1 to 1.2 seconds.

Yes, that means a player will not be procing the passive at every 5 seconds exactly but one would have to think Zos, and especially Gilliam, is pretty ignorant of combat in this game to have not taken that into consideration when they updated the passives. I for one do not think Gill is obuse to these things as he probably knows more about combat in this game than most players and everyone at Zos.

Problem is that providing 2 oportunities every 1-1,2 second will happen rarely for most of the players in PvE and never in PvP. For example in content like BGs redguards restore per second is arevaring around 100 while in fight. In Pve it's usually ~150 for decent players (slightly more for very good players and less for casuals). So either ZoS knowingly made redguard passive circumstancial or they didn't predict that not every enemy is a target dummy. Both options seems pretty bad for players having redguard characters.

I used to run with a very casual group of players and was able to get them clearing the trials early on in this game in part because they bothered to learn to weave basic attacks into their skills. I also often weave in PvP but that is because it is a habit for me.

Your suggestion that the game should be balanced to a lower skill level just makes those who can even stronger and creates a greater divide between those who can and those who cannot. That is a pretty bad idea. After a few weeks and only two pages on this thread it seem the idea does not have much support. BTW, I have three redguards that I have chosen to keep redguards.

Umm my suggestion ? Where did I suggest anything ? All I said is that currently redguard pretty much sucks and lacks identity in real fights. There was no suggestion that game should be balanced around low tier players lol. And btw there is plenty of was to implement passives the way that will benefit all types of players equally like for example changing redguard passive to proc out of all damage (just an example though not a suggestion).

Umm. You said some players are not able to get 2 opportunities every 1/1/2 second. In the context of saying that in this thread it seems rather evident you are suggesting that the Redguard passive be buffed based on the lesser skilled player that is challenged with weaving basic attacks.

So if you were just saying that out of the blue and not having anything to do with the context of this thread and my related comments then my bad. I just figured there was an actual reason it was mentioned.

I've said quote "problem is that providing 2 oportunities every 1-1,2 second will happen rarely for most of the players in PvE and never in PvP". I never said the reason for that is their skill level. In real combat You'll simply rarely do direct damage every 1-1,2 sec for few minutes straight.

Odd. I had thought that a basic attack was direct damage and since a moderately skilled and practiced player will be weaving attacks before skills then they will be doing direct damage every 1-1/1/2 second. There is a reason why some players do significantly greater damage than others.

Even in PvP I weave LAs often so to say never in PvP is an absolute that is factually flawed. Maybe we just run with group of players as even the more casual guild I run with some does better than what you are claiming for yourself.

I will say I weave LAs always in PvE but less often in PvP, but still do. However, race passives should not be balanced to that lower number and especially to players who chose to not weave much. It becomes OP in other situations.

@Ladislao presents a comparison worth looking at in the post right after this one. It shows the Redguard performing quite well in situations. Zos needs to consider when a player can get the passive to perform at it's best vs when a player cannot get the most out of it due to their chosen playstyle.

It's not about being experienced or not .

You are correct but you keep describing players who are pretty bad. That they rarely land direct damage every 1.5 seconds or less and can never do that in PvP. Players I now across the experience spectrum are better than that. That is based on your words, not mine.

I edited out the rest as I did not see a need to quote. Especially it was clearly pointed out by Ladislao (as I mentioned the post) how the passive benefit some builds more than others (and we can say playstyles) which is similar to what I suggested. As long as you continue to discount the inconvenient fact Ladislao pointed out there is no real reason to continue this discussion.

it's like talking to a brick wall.

Funny how I was thinking the same thing as you dismiss information that is inconvenient to what you want. Since you are suggesting most players are challenged weaving basic attacks into their rotation, which is the only way PvE players could not land direct attacks every 1.5 seconds most of the time, I would not expect you to understand.

I do wish you much luck getting Zos to understand.

Like seriously I dont even understand Your point. You post that people will weave light attack+skill every 1-1,2 sec but here is what I wrote in one of my previous posts : "You weave light attacks+skills every 0,9 second in perfect scenario and usually every 1-1,2 second in more realistic scenario".

I realize that and do not expect you to understand after our extended back and forth. I will explain it one last time though.

A skilled and practiced player will hit their weave of LA + skill in the smallest time feasible because they have honed their skill and practiced their rotation. As I have said, it is about player skill. It is why there is a portion of the player base that can out dps most of the player base by a great margin.

I understand the point you are speaking to, the ability and skill level of the average player and that is fine. I expect you are correct when speaking about that group of players. However, as I have already stated, this type of passive should not balanced to that average scenario as it would just make that more skilled player more powerful.

Anyhow, enjoy the game and have a good day.

Ok lets make few things clear. i understand Your point. it's flawed and have nothing to do with the main topic. You dont understand my point and You base Your argumentaion on not understanding what I am saying and because of that Your point is simply flawed , out of context and hold no cennection to what I've said in any of my previous comments.

Umm. Absolutely not the case.

All you are doing here is creating a straw man argument since we are in disagreement where as my comments are about how things are in game.

Yes Your comments are about how things are in game. However they're completly irrelevant and not connected to the topic of this thread. And this is a thing You're failing to understand. And when it comes to straw man argument well You are actually person using it because difference in player skill was never mentioned in this thread or used as any argument before You've started to talk about it and saying that I was suggesting something related to it. I could also explain why Your argumentation is wrong but seeing how it is hard to explain basic math to You I think I'll pass.

We're in disagreement only because You've imagined in Your head that I suggested something that I never did and You've based Your whole argumentation around that.