Redguard needs a buff

Langeston

JinxxND wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

@JinxxND
How much sustain do you run with?

Kinda of random question but depends on the build as I run so many different ones so it varies. Anywhere from 1700 to 2500 regen non CP, if you were talking about the last time I saw you on your vamp drain gank magblade it was 2459 regen non CP. Your also more then welcome to whisper me in game for build information and theory crafting.

Not random at all actually. Two of the skills that you were using almost like spammables (Bombard & Whirlwind) are very expensive — even with your 8% cost reduction they're 3230 per cast. I'd have difficulty sustaining skills like that on my Breton, and I have roughly the same regen and an infused spell cost reduction glyph.

If I were you I'd try replacing one of your glyphs with an infused skill cost reduction glyph — I think it'll make a big difference for your playstyle. When you're using 1 skill per second, it amounts to 648 regen.

JobooAGS

Langeston wrote: »

JinxxND wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

@JinxxND
How much sustain do you run with?

Kinda of random question but depends on the build as I run so many different ones so it varies. Anywhere from 1700 to 2500 regen non CP, if you were talking about the last time I saw you on your vamp drain gank magblade it was 2459 regen non CP. Your also more then welcome to whisper me in game for build information and theory crafting.

Not random at all actually. Two of the skills that you were using almost like spammables (Bombard & Whirlwind) are very expensive — even with your 8% cost reduction they're 3230 per cast. I'd have difficulty sustaining skills like that on my Breton, and I have roughly the same regen and an infused spell cost reduction glyph.

If I were you I'd try replacing one of your glyphs with an infused skill cost reduction glyph — I think it'll make a big difference for your playstyle. When you're using 1 skill per second, it amounts to 648 regen.

With 7 med plus redguard acid spray/bombard comes out to be about 2.2k stam

JinxxND

I have no problem sustaining on that build acid spray because multiple things as mentioned with @JobooAGS that I put into my builds which don't require anymore cost reduction glyphs and has nothing todo with the fact that Redguard is under performing compared to other races and while it is supposed to be the sustain race Bosmer ends up still outperforming it in that department. I could play an Orc with that specific build and still sustain everything fine and get more weapon damage/heals or a Khajit and get the crit damage/healing which would benefit me more.

Langeston

JobooAGS wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

JinxxND wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

@JinxxND
How much sustain do you run with?

Kinda of random question but depends on the build as I run so many different ones so it varies. Anywhere from 1700 to 2500 regen non CP, if you were talking about the last time I saw you on your vamp drain gank magblade it was 2459 regen non CP. Your also more then welcome to whisper me in game for build information and theory crafting.

Not random at all actually. Two of the skills that you were using almost like spammables (Bombard & Whirlwind) are very expensive — even with your 8% cost reduction they're 3230 per cast. I'd have difficulty sustaining skills like that on my Breton, and I have roughly the same regen and an infused spell cost reduction glyph.

If I were you I'd try replacing one of your glyphs with an infused skill cost reduction glyph — I think it'll make a big difference for your playstyle. When you're using 1 skill per second, it amounts to 648 regen.

With 7 med plus redguard acid spray/bombard comes out to be about 2.2k stam

Ah, true. I forgot about medium armor. (It's been a while since I turned my stamblade into a magblade.) My point still stands though: even on my Breton I use a spell cost reduction glyph & it gets Elemental Weapon & Swallow Soul to just under 2k, and the difference is very noticeable.

JinxxND

Your comparing two completely different things in a Breton that get the 7% to every magicka ability which affects stuff like your cloak/vamp drain/channeled accel/cripple grasp etc. on top weapon skills and you're probably not using a sustain food. Been awhile since I played magblade as I turned it into the current stamina form it is but I'm sure I could theory craft a build especially a ganker that doesn't require any more cost reduction on a Breton which honestly sounds counter intuitive and probably why you have a hard time closing kills ganking. That's a personal preference thing by the sounds of it and relates to your build.

Langeston

JinxxND wrote: »

Your comparing two completely different things in a Breton that get the 7% to every magicka ability which affects stuff like your cloak/vamp drain/channeled accel/cripple grasp etc. on top weapon skills and you're probably not using a sustain food. Been awhile since I played magblade as I turned it into the current stamina form it is but I'm sure I could theory craft a build that doesn't require any more cost reduction on a Breton. That's a personal preference thing by the sounds of it and relates to your build.

Actually, I use Ghastly Eye Bowl for 459 regen. (And Bright Throat's which gives me better idle regen.) I can do it without the reduction glyph, but not nearly as comfortably & the loss in damage from one less spell damage glyph is so minimal as to be unnoticeable. (10,248 vs 10,560 dmg on Swallow Soul) And as a magblade, this actually helps my survivability quite a bit.

I used a reduction glyph on this toon when it was a Bosmer stamblade too — I think they're criminally underrated.

JinxxND

Cost reduction to me at least outside of heavy armor seems terrible as you get better scaling in light/medium with armor passives going regen or damage but this is off topic. Not bad, good for certain things though most definitely.

Langeston

JinxxND wrote: »

Cost reduction to me at least outside of heavy armor seems terrible as you get better scaling in light/medium with armor passives going regen or damage but this is off topic. Not bad, good for certain things though most definitely.

Well, it was just a thought. I've played around with every combination of sustain & cost reduction imaginable, and every time an infused reduction glyph has performed better while in battle. Outside of battle is a completely different story though.

idk

Juhasow wrote: »

idk wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

You also want 100 regen on top of the 950 stamina you get back back every 5 seconds while you're doing direct damage? That would amount to 480 regen while in battle.

That's a lot better than a Breton.

Well the 950 stam every 5 seconds (380 regen, 190 per sec) in reality is far less than that. Bosmer can hit crazy numbers with their 258 SCALABLE regen that procs ALL THE TIME unless blocking or sprinting and can EASILY surpass a redguard’s IDEAL regen.

In combat sustain should out do out of combat sustain. Does that mean adding on 100 more regen to redguard? Maybe not. Does it mean buffing adrenaline rush or martial knowledge? Likely

Not really. Even when doing AoE damage it is easy to weave in LAs to proc the passive just like it was before. I am sure someone can come up with niche situations to support your claim but that is all I can see that would make

Even your comparison to the bosmer is ignoring they have a very niche passive for penetration making your comparison look rather incomplete.

Problem here is You simply wont be able to deal direct dmg excatly every 5 seconds even when in combat. You weave light attacks+skills every 0,9 second in perfect scenario and usually every 1-1,2 second in more realistic scenario. So if cooldown on redguard passive ends like 0,1 sec after Your last attack then You'll have some small downtime on the passive which will stack throughout the fight resulting with realistic regen on redguard being lower then expected 390. Usually on target dummy it's ~350 and in real fights it gets closer to 300. And that is still assuming vast majority of the fight You're non stop attacking the enemy which not always happens.

Not really. Half decent players will be providing two opportunities every 1 to 1.2 seconds.

Yes, that means a player will not be procing the passive at every 5 seconds exactly but one would have to think Zos, and especially Gilliam, is pretty ignorant of combat in this game to have not taken that into consideration when they updated the passives. I for one do not think Gill is obuse to these things as he probably knows more about combat in this game than most players and everyone at Zos.

Juhasow

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Redguard and bosmer are basically the same, with exception of bosmer synergy with roll-dodge builds and redguard's synergy with blocking builds with weapon abilities focus. But all those builds can go orc or nord for higher stat density.
Overall, racials are far from being balanced now, there are very obvious BiS and underdogs both for PVP and PVE. In the same time difference between BiS and underdog is like 1.25 set bonuses max, so massive changes are unnecessary. Just few small tweaks, where replacing snare reduction with stam regen can be viable buff for redguard, but it must come with small buffs to bosmer, khajiit, imperial, argonian as well.

They really aren't the same. They're on paper but in real fight You simply wont generate direct damage attack every 5 seconds excatly to the split of the second. It's even impossible on dummy which is the most perfect scenario. Also fact that You need to block and use weapon abilities extensively to get the most benefits out of a redguard is more of a drawback then benefit comparing it to dodge roll requirement on wood elf.

When racials passives were tested, it was shown that redguard will be a little bit better in "intense" fight, while bosmer will have an edge if more movement is involved. Also redguard passive reduces cost of ultimate as well. 138 for onslaught instead of 150 - certainly not bad.

Anyway, I agree that redguard looks lackluster for PVP. But bosmer.. I play AD, and I barely see any bosmers in DC/EP. Maybe 1 from 100 players or even more rare. Majority of stam are "big" guys, i.e. nords and orcs. Nightblades are mostly khajiits. I know many youtubers recommend bosmer for mobility, but mobility is a tricky thing and and as you can see nobody is race changing to bosmer, while ton of players race changed to nord/orc, so argument of buffing redguard in comparison to bosmer is not great. Just compare to nord and orc and it will be obvious redguard is under powered both for PVE and PVP.

Problem is racials were "tested" on target dummies and only then those passives were equall. That ulti cos reduction is ok but not exceptionally great. It's like 4 seconds less time to charge onslaught. You would have to literally use onslaught excatly at the moment it's being charged to benefit from it. Not completly tragic but not the greatest either. And since the time racial changes were introduced the usage of weapon abilities dropped quite a bit in both PvE and PvP especially after Dragonhold update. Redguard is being compared to wood elf mostly because they're most corresponding stamina races since both have equall max resource passive and also sustain passives.

I disagree about ultimate. Bloodspawn is most popular monster helm in PVP because of his ulti gen+nice stam regen bonus. If people were just after resistances, they will be using 2xresistance helms (chudan+pirate) to have permanent 6k bonus. Onslaught and ballista are very powerful this patch, so this bonus is really useful.

And again - I agree redguard needs a buff. But not only redguard, other races require buffs/tweaks too. For bosmer it was suggested long ago - move penetration bonus from roll-dodge to permanent. For khajiit increase crit damage a bit to increase synergy with crit builds. For argonian, add 128 SD/WD as compensation for healing done buff to "item sets" which argonian didn't received. Add 600 more health to imperial to increase synergy with lava foot soup.

Until then, we'll have BiS pantheon of orc, nord and breton. 2 magicka elves which don't want to switch to breton but still okay and 5 lesser races with situational/suboptimal bonuses.

Kinda like comparing apples to oranges. First of all I never said redguard passive is trash but I said it's simply not the greatest thing. There is a difference between bloodspawn and redguard ultimate passive. Bloodspawn gives You numeric value of ultimate gained when redguard passive is percentage cost reduction. So to get full benefit from redguard passive You need some very specific expensive ultimates but even when You compare how much fatser bloodspawn will make charging Your ultimate vs redguard passive it's becoming even more clear redguard passive is not the best stuff. And with bloodspawn any ultimate You want can be used faster not only few specific ones which You rarely use outside of PvP but in PvP even nord have better ulti gen passive then redguard so comparing redguard passive to bloodspawn is kinda silly.

As for reason why people are using bloodspawn belive me if resistance part would be removed from it and it would be left just with ulti charge component , amount of people that are wearing it would also drop drastically. People are not using it just for ulti and stam regen but for ulti stam regen AND resistances alltogether. Bloodspawn is simply extremly great set. It's downright silly to make an argument about redguard passive being ok because bloodspawn also charges ult and people are using it. And belive me if resistance component would be removed from bloodspawn many people would reconsider using it.

As for Your propositions for changes to other races few of them will achieve basically the thing You're complaining about which is having a pantheon of races , some of them will just change their places. For example adding 1,5k permanent penetration to wood elf will make wood elf BiS race because he'll be able to sustain the same way with double stat food or with bewitched sugar skulls like orc with artaeum takeaway broth but wood elf will have more stamina and more health thanks to food buff he's using plus more penetration resulting with same sustain , more health and more damage because additional stam and pen will outparse orcs weapon damage and allow for better CP distribution.

So fact that PVE orc has one set bonus more then other races whole year is ok, but buffing other races for 1 set bonus to orc level is not ok? And redguard won't become new BiS if what OP suggests will be done (i.e. 10-12% cost reduction + 100 stam recovery)?

Where are You taking those suggestions from ? Because definietly not from me.

JinxxND

Make adrenaline rush proc off all damage, increase cost reduction to 10-12% for weapon skill lines or mirror Breton 7% reduce all stamina ability cost, 15% snare reduction turns into 100 stam recovery. Race fixed

MartiniDaniels

JinxxND wrote: »

Make adrenaline rush proc off all damage, increase cost reduction to 10-12% for weapon skill lines or mirror Breton 7% reduce all stamina ability cost, 15% snare reduction turns into 100 stam recovery. Race fixed

You just described Breton + Adrenaline rush on top of Breton. I.e. completely broken OP from PVE point of view, there will be no other stamina race in the game after that only redguard. Which I'm ok with because I definitely like redguards more then orcs, but this has nothing to do with balance.

Ardan147

Right now I see little reason to play Redguard over Imperial (unless you really want to play a Redguard). Imperial's cost reduction might be less, but it applies to all your active abilities and not just weapon abilities, and the extra 2000 max health allows you to run Dubious Camoran Throne/Artaeum Takeaway Broth or even Lava Foot for sustain (if you put attribute points into health), which unlike the Redugard's Adrenaline Rush passive, scales with things that give you a percentage increase in Stamina recovery. The health bonus also makes Imperials effective as tanks as well.

Redguard is still a good choice if you're primarily using weapon skills, and can also better maximize the value of your food buff (blue bi-stat food has the highest equivalent set-piece bonus of any food one would use for a stamina dps, but if you push your health too high then some of that bonus is effectively wasted). Imperials are a lot more flexible and versatile though. (As for other stamina based races, I'll take Khajiit for being cats, and Bosmer for being so damn adorable).

JinxxND

First off PvE stam side there is no other race but Orc, PvE will continue to be that because it's a simple numbers game of what is BiS for damage because PvE is not dynamic like PvP in the game and comes down to simple math. Also if the Breton passive is too strong stick to the weapon skill ability cost reduction but increase it more then 1% to 10-12%.

Doesn't make sense that it gets basically the same cost reduction as a Breton but in a single skill line rather then in every ability which also includes the same skill line. 15% snare reduction doesn't help in PvE or PvP you could take it off and no one would ever notice and since it's supposed to be the stam sustain race adding some regen that actually scales would be fine since it doesn't have anything defensive/offensive in the racials.

Adrenaline Rush proccing off all damage would eliminate all these hypothetical calculations of what only happens in the perfect parse without missing a single cooldown exactly on the 5 second mark that isn't realistic at all even in PvE where you have to move and avoid one shot mechanics etc. esp not in PvP

JinxxND

Redguard right now isn't close to BiS for anything right now far from it in PvP with Nord/Orc being the top choice and Wood Elf having superior sustain because the scaling with the raw regen on top of all the utility it has with the speed and in PvE it's Orc again with Nord as top for tanking and Wood Elf still out sustaining a Redguard because all the movement in PvE and avoiding one shot mechanics and Adrenline Rush not proc exactly on the 5 second cd making the theoretical math behind it's sustain false

Juhasow

idk wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

idk wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

You also want 100 regen on top of the 950 stamina you get back back every 5 seconds while you're doing direct damage? That would amount to 480 regen while in battle.

That's a lot better than a Breton.

Well the 950 stam every 5 seconds (380 regen, 190 per sec) in reality is far less than that. Bosmer can hit crazy numbers with their 258 SCALABLE regen that procs ALL THE TIME unless blocking or sprinting and can EASILY surpass a redguard’s IDEAL regen.

In combat sustain should out do out of combat sustain. Does that mean adding on 100 more regen to redguard? Maybe not. Does it mean buffing adrenaline rush or martial knowledge? Likely

Not really. Even when doing AoE damage it is easy to weave in LAs to proc the passive just like it was before. I am sure someone can come up with niche situations to support your claim but that is all I can see that would make

Even your comparison to the bosmer is ignoring they have a very niche passive for penetration making your comparison look rather incomplete.

Problem here is You simply wont be able to deal direct dmg excatly every 5 seconds even when in combat. You weave light attacks+skills every 0,9 second in perfect scenario and usually every 1-1,2 second in more realistic scenario. So if cooldown on redguard passive ends like 0,1 sec after Your last attack then You'll have some small downtime on the passive which will stack throughout the fight resulting with realistic regen on redguard being lower then expected 390. Usually on target dummy it's ~350 and in real fights it gets closer to 300. And that is still assuming vast majority of the fight You're non stop attacking the enemy which not always happens.

Not really. Half decent players will be providing two opportunities every 1 to 1.2 seconds.

Yes, that means a player will not be procing the passive at every 5 seconds exactly but one would have to think Zos, and especially Gilliam, is pretty ignorant of combat in this game to have not taken that into consideration when they updated the passives. I for one do not think Gill is obuse to these things as he probably knows more about combat in this game than most players and everyone at Zos.

Problem is @idk that providing 2 oportunities every 1-1,2 second will happen rarely for most of the players in PvE and never in PvP. For example in content like BGs redguards restore per second is arevaring around 100 while in fight. In Pve it's usually ~150 for decent players (slightly more for very good players and less for casuals). So either ZoS knowingly made redguard passive circumstancial or they didn't predict that not every enemy is a target dummy. Both options seems pretty bad for players having redguard characters.

idk

Juhasow wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

idk wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

You also want 100 regen on top of the 950 stamina you get back back every 5 seconds while you're doing direct damage? That would amount to 480 regen while in battle.

That's a lot better than a Breton.

Well the 950 stam every 5 seconds (380 regen, 190 per sec) in reality is far less than that. Bosmer can hit crazy numbers with their 258 SCALABLE regen that procs ALL THE TIME unless blocking or sprinting and can EASILY surpass a redguard’s IDEAL regen.

In combat sustain should out do out of combat sustain. Does that mean adding on 100 more regen to redguard? Maybe not. Does it mean buffing adrenaline rush or martial knowledge? Likely

Not really. Even when doing AoE damage it is easy to weave in LAs to proc the passive just like it was before. I am sure someone can come up with niche situations to support your claim but that is all I can see that would make

Even your comparison to the bosmer is ignoring they have a very niche passive for penetration making your comparison look rather incomplete.

Problem here is You simply wont be able to deal direct dmg excatly every 5 seconds even when in combat. You weave light attacks+skills every 0,9 second in perfect scenario and usually every 1-1,2 second in more realistic scenario. So if cooldown on redguard passive ends like 0,1 sec after Your last attack then You'll have some small downtime on the passive which will stack throughout the fight resulting with realistic regen on redguard being lower then expected 390. Usually on target dummy it's ~350 and in real fights it gets closer to 300. And that is still assuming vast majority of the fight You're non stop attacking the enemy which not always happens.

Not really. Half decent players will be providing two opportunities every 1 to 1.2 seconds.

Yes, that means a player will not be procing the passive at every 5 seconds exactly but one would have to think Zos, and especially Gilliam, is pretty ignorant of combat in this game to have not taken that into consideration when they updated the passives. I for one do not think Gill is obuse to these things as he probably knows more about combat in this game than most players and everyone at Zos.

Problem is that providing 2 oportunities every 1-1,2 second will happen rarely for most of the players in PvE and never in PvP. For example in content like BGs redguards restore per second is arevaring around 100 while in fight. In Pve it's usually ~150 for decent players (slightly more for very good players and less for casuals). So either ZoS knowingly made redguard passive circumstancial or they didn't predict that not every enemy is a target dummy. Both options seems pretty bad for players having redguard characters.

I used to run with a very casual group of players and was able to get them clearing the trials early on in this game in part because they bothered to learn to weave basic attacks into their skills. I also often weave in PvP but that is because it is a habit for me.

Your suggestion that the game should be balanced to a lower skill level just makes those who can even stronger and creates a greater divide between those who can and those who cannot. That is a pretty bad idea. After a few weeks and only two pages on this thread it seem the idea does not have much support. BTW, I have three redguards that I have chosen to keep redguards.

Juhasow

idk wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

idk wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

You also want 100 regen on top of the 950 stamina you get back back every 5 seconds while you're doing direct damage? That would amount to 480 regen while in battle.

That's a lot better than a Breton.

Well the 950 stam every 5 seconds (380 regen, 190 per sec) in reality is far less than that. Bosmer can hit crazy numbers with their 258 SCALABLE regen that procs ALL THE TIME unless blocking or sprinting and can EASILY surpass a redguard’s IDEAL regen.

In combat sustain should out do out of combat sustain. Does that mean adding on 100 more regen to redguard? Maybe not. Does it mean buffing adrenaline rush or martial knowledge? Likely

Not really. Even when doing AoE damage it is easy to weave in LAs to proc the passive just like it was before. I am sure someone can come up with niche situations to support your claim but that is all I can see that would make

Even your comparison to the bosmer is ignoring they have a very niche passive for penetration making your comparison look rather incomplete.

Problem here is You simply wont be able to deal direct dmg excatly every 5 seconds even when in combat. You weave light attacks+skills every 0,9 second in perfect scenario and usually every 1-1,2 second in more realistic scenario. So if cooldown on redguard passive ends like 0,1 sec after Your last attack then You'll have some small downtime on the passive which will stack throughout the fight resulting with realistic regen on redguard being lower then expected 390. Usually on target dummy it's ~350 and in real fights it gets closer to 300. And that is still assuming vast majority of the fight You're non stop attacking the enemy which not always happens.

Not really. Half decent players will be providing two opportunities every 1 to 1.2 seconds.

Yes, that means a player will not be procing the passive at every 5 seconds exactly but one would have to think Zos, and especially Gilliam, is pretty ignorant of combat in this game to have not taken that into consideration when they updated the passives. I for one do not think Gill is obuse to these things as he probably knows more about combat in this game than most players and everyone at Zos.

Problem is that providing 2 oportunities every 1-1,2 second will happen rarely for most of the players in PvE and never in PvP. For example in content like BGs redguards restore per second is arevaring around 100 while in fight. In Pve it's usually ~150 for decent players (slightly more for very good players and less for casuals). So either ZoS knowingly made redguard passive circumstancial or they didn't predict that not every enemy is a target dummy. Both options seems pretty bad for players having redguard characters.

I used to run with a very casual group of players and was able to get them clearing the trials early on in this game in part because they bothered to learn to weave basic attacks into their skills. I also often weave in PvP but that is because it is a habit for me.

Your suggestion that the game should be balanced to a lower skill level just makes those who can even stronger and creates a greater divide between those who can and those who cannot. That is a pretty bad idea. After a few weeks and only two pages on this thread it seem the idea does not have much support. BTW, I have three redguards that I have chosen to keep redguards.

Umm my suggestion ? Where did I suggest anything ? All I said is that currently redguard pretty much sucks and lacks identity in real fights. There was no suggestion that game should be balanced around low tier players lol. And btw there is plenty of was to implement passives the way that will benefit all types of players equally like for example changing redguard passive to proc out of all damage (just an example though not a suggestion).

JinxxND

Simple changes such as making adrenaline Rush proc off ALL damage doesn't actually change anything because it doesn't increase it's hypothetical recovery on a perfect parse and that's pretty much the only place where it's current iteration applies which isn't real PvE or PvP. This recovery also doesn't not scale with anything making it much weaker then the recovery of a wood elf that gets boosted.

It definitely needs a buff to the 8% reduce cost in weapon skill lines. It doesn't make sense that It gets 1% more cost reduce then a Breton in SINGLE skill line that has been mentioned numerous times by ZOS to be a supplemental skill line with weaker abilities then class ones. It should be 10-12% cost reduce if the race is meant to be supplementary race at least making it noticeable strong in that section or get the same 7% reduce cost to all stamina abilities to mirror Breton.

The 15% snare reduction is laughable in how useless and unnoticeable it is in every scenario from PvE to PvP and should be changed to 100 flat stam regen since it's purely a sustain race and has nothing else going for it yet still is out sustained by wood elfs due to % and scaling with the raw regen they get that combines with food, raw stats from sets, class passives and CP modifiers, etc.

Also on another note with the useless snare reduction I don't even think it works since at all since they changes how snares supposedly work even using a set like Ranger Gait with Redguard the smallest snare of 30% still keeps you as locked up as anyone else and the big ones that are 40%+ still have you moving like a snail and really makes you wonder what snare reduction is supposed todo since you still need snare immunity like everyone else. A woodelf or orc ends up getting better snare reduction from their speed passives combined with speed boost in getting out of snare then a redguard gets with actual snare reduction which is completely a joke.

JinxxND

It needs serious buffs right now because of how lack luster it is in every category

Ladislao

Redguards don't need a buff. They have a good set of diverse and useful passives. I would like to clarify some points.

Weapon abilities cost reduction passive is not as good as breton's magicka reduction passive. But it shouldn't be since redguard's recovery passive is much better than breton's one (maybe even for magicka players, debatable).
Moreover, redguard's cost reduction is not much worse in comparison with breton's one. It all depends on how much your build relies on weapon skill lines. Keep in mind it reduces stamina, magicka, and ultimate costs.
Speaking of mirroring breton's passive, do I need to remind you that the rule "reduce stamina costs of abilities" includes not only abilities, but also roll dodges, break frees and the like? It doesn’t sound so mirror to me.

The second part of Martial Training. It's not so clear but snare effectiveness reduction is very similar to bosmer's movement speed improvement. It's all about the formula for calculating movement speed .The fact is that snares are applied after accelerations (that's why snares feels so strong). Let's look at some small comparisons.

We have a character with 100% movement speed, usual 30% snare and two races.
Bosmer: 110% * (1 - 0.3) = 77%
Redguard: 100% * (1 - 0.3 * (1 - 0.15)) = 74.5%
Redguards are useless, right? Let's buff major expedition.
Bosmer: 140% * (1 - 0.3) = 98%
Redguard: 130% * (1 - 0.3 * (1 - 0.15)) = 96.7%
Well, still seems underpowered a bit. Let's check more serious snare like 70% from permafrost.
Bosmer: 140% * (1 - 0.7) = 42%
Redguard: 130% * (1 - 0.7 * (1 - 0.15)) = 52.7%
Wow, seems solid already. But not on the forum, unfortunately.

Someone may say that this is only mathematics, and in the game, everything is not so. Someone can rightly notice that one of the passives works for speed overall, and the other only against snares. Someone may recall that one passive requires roll dodge to trigger, and the other works constantly. But the fact remains - the effectiveness of passives is very similar in the frame of their differences.


But my main message - if you really want to balance the races, and not return redguards as kings of meta, then you should think about how you can slightly nerf orcs without hurting them much. Other races are fine and well balanced among themselves.

JinxxND

Have you actually tried using major expedition in a northern storm/permafrost, or thru a frost wall of elements I can tell you that the snare reduction even with the speed boost from major expedition does nothing because the snare reduction doesn't work which wouldn't surprise me because they also broke skills like berserker rage the defensive morph of onslaught that no longer gives complete cc and snare immunity after the ult after the last patch.

Also once again the regen on a redguard is not better then a wood elf or breton. Breton cost reduction applies to every skill not just weapon skill lines so literally every skill you use gets use from it while only weapon skill on redguard get 1% more cost reduction then the breton, wood elf 258 regen scales with class passives ex. nightblade 15% to that regen, 10% from minor endurance, 20% from major endurance, up to 15% from CP not to mention if you add any regen from food or sets that boost it way more then the hypothetical regen on a redguard which only applies on direct damage which only happens in a perfect parse on a standing still target dummy if you land every light attack on the 5 sec cd. This never happens so giving hypothetical math out is irrelevant. The regen drastically drops if you miss a single light attack or have to move and avoid one shot mechanics in PvE and you don't parse on target dummies in PvP so once again your not getting the full regen. If they made Adrenaline Rush proc like a set such as Grundwulf on all damage they would at least make the hypothetical regen you get possible to obtain outside of a target dummy that doesn't not move because you are simple never getting the entire sustain outside of that with it only proccing on direct damage.

Also I don't think Orc's need to be "nerfed" and they are in a good spot they should just bring other races to the Orc/Nord/Wood Elf/Breton level.

JobooAGS

Ladislao wrote: »

Redguards don't need a buff. They have a good set of diverse and useful passives. I would like to clarify some points.

Weapon abilities cost reduction passive is not as good as breton's magicka reduction passive. But it shouldn't be since redguard's recovery passive is much better than breton's one (maybe even for magicka players, debatable).
Moreover, redguard's cost reduction is not much worse in comparison with breton's one. It all depends on how much your build relies on weapon skill lines. Keep in mind it reduces stamina, magicka, and ultimate costs.
Speaking of mirroring breton's passive, do I need to remind you that the rule "reduce stamina costs of abilities" includes not only abilities, but also roll dodges, break frees and the like? It doesn’t sound so mirror to me.

The second part of Martial Training. It's not so clear but snare effectiveness reduction is very similar to bosmer's movement speed improvement. It's all about the formula for calculating movement speed .The fact is that snares are applied after accelerations (that's why snares feels so strong). Let's look at some small comparisons.

We have a character with 100% movement speed, usual 30% snare and two races.
Bosmer: 110% * (1 - 0.3) = 77%
Redguard: 100% * (1 - 0.3 * (1 - 0.15)) = 74.5%
Redguards are useless, right? Let's buff major expedition.
Bosmer: 140% * (1 - 0.3) = 98%
Redguard: 130% * (1 - 0.3 * (1 - 0.15)) = 96.7%
Well, still seems underpowered a bit. Let's check more serious snare like 70% from permafrost.
Bosmer: 140% * (1 - 0.7) = 42%
Redguard: 130% * (1 - 0.7 * (1 - 0.15)) = 52.7%
Wow, seems solid already. But not on the forum, unfortunately.

Someone may say that this is only mathematics, and in the game, everything is not so. Someone can rightly notice that one of the passives works for speed overall, and the other only against snares. Someone may recall that one passive requires roll dodge to trigger, and the other works constantly. But the fact remains - the effectiveness of passives is very similar in the frame of their differences.


But my main message - if you really want to balance the races, and not return redguards as kings of meta, then you should think about how you can slightly nerf orcs without hurting them much. Other races are fine and well balanced among themselves.

You do realize that 258 SCALABLE stam regen + poison resists >>> than 380 MAX UNSCALABLE stam regen that requires you to never miss and to always be on a target all the time at least once every 5 seconds precisely?

To add insult to injury, a bosmer also has damage through pen and redguard has what, a cheaper onslaught/ballista? (not going to talk about shield ult or dw ult, one is defensive, the other is garbage and who would play redguard for destro ult when you will get more out of it via altmer dunmer or breton?) Also who burns their ult on cooldown unless in certain pve activities? Besides, Nord does ult regen better has hp and has resists.

JinxxND

If they change Adrenaline rush to proc of all damage so you actually can get all the regen off cd with a dot outside a target dummy that doesn't attack back and doesn't move. It wouldn't change sustain in parses and increase the weapon skill cost reduction to 10-12% then possible you can say they have good sustain even though it would be for only supplement weapon skills, and talk about changing the useless snare reduction to some kinda of utility that actually gets some use instead of getting stuck in a permafrost and saying it makes a huge deal in there when you still can't move.

idk

Juhasow wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

idk wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

You also want 100 regen on top of the 950 stamina you get back back every 5 seconds while you're doing direct damage? That would amount to 480 regen while in battle.

That's a lot better than a Breton.

Well the 950 stam every 5 seconds (380 regen, 190 per sec) in reality is far less than that. Bosmer can hit crazy numbers with their 258 SCALABLE regen that procs ALL THE TIME unless blocking or sprinting and can EASILY surpass a redguard’s IDEAL regen.

In combat sustain should out do out of combat sustain. Does that mean adding on 100 more regen to redguard? Maybe not. Does it mean buffing adrenaline rush or martial knowledge? Likely

Not really. Even when doing AoE damage it is easy to weave in LAs to proc the passive just like it was before. I am sure someone can come up with niche situations to support your claim but that is all I can see that would make

Even your comparison to the bosmer is ignoring they have a very niche passive for penetration making your comparison look rather incomplete.

Problem here is You simply wont be able to deal direct dmg excatly every 5 seconds even when in combat. You weave light attacks+skills every 0,9 second in perfect scenario and usually every 1-1,2 second in more realistic scenario. So if cooldown on redguard passive ends like 0,1 sec after Your last attack then You'll have some small downtime on the passive which will stack throughout the fight resulting with realistic regen on redguard being lower then expected 390. Usually on target dummy it's ~350 and in real fights it gets closer to 300. And that is still assuming vast majority of the fight You're non stop attacking the enemy which not always happens.

Not really. Half decent players will be providing two opportunities every 1 to 1.2 seconds.

Yes, that means a player will not be procing the passive at every 5 seconds exactly but one would have to think Zos, and especially Gilliam, is pretty ignorant of combat in this game to have not taken that into consideration when they updated the passives. I for one do not think Gill is obuse to these things as he probably knows more about combat in this game than most players and everyone at Zos.

Problem is that providing 2 oportunities every 1-1,2 second will happen rarely for most of the players in PvE and never in PvP. For example in content like BGs redguards restore per second is arevaring around 100 while in fight. In Pve it's usually ~150 for decent players (slightly more for very good players and less for casuals). So either ZoS knowingly made redguard passive circumstancial or they didn't predict that not every enemy is a target dummy. Both options seems pretty bad for players having redguard characters.

I used to run with a very casual group of players and was able to get them clearing the trials early on in this game in part because they bothered to learn to weave basic attacks into their skills. I also often weave in PvP but that is because it is a habit for me.

Your suggestion that the game should be balanced to a lower skill level just makes those who can even stronger and creates a greater divide between those who can and those who cannot. That is a pretty bad idea. After a few weeks and only two pages on this thread it seem the idea does not have much support. BTW, I have three redguards that I have chosen to keep redguards.

Umm my suggestion ? Where did I suggest anything ? All I said is that currently redguard pretty much sucks and lacks identity in real fights. There was no suggestion that game should be balanced around low tier players lol. And btw there is plenty of was to implement passives the way that will benefit all types of players equally like for example changing redguard passive to proc out of all damage (just an example though not a suggestion).

Umm. You said some players are not able to get 2 opportunities every 1/1/2 second. In the context of saying that in this thread it seems rather evident you are suggesting that the Redguard passive be buffed based on the lesser skilled player that is challenged with weaving basic attacks.

So if you were just saying that out of the blue and not having anything to do with the context of this thread and my related comments then my bad. I just figured there was an actual reason it was mentioned.

JinxxND

idk wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

idk wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

You also want 100 regen on top of the 950 stamina you get back back every 5 seconds while you're doing direct damage? That would amount to 480 regen while in battle.

That's a lot better than a Breton.

Well the 950 stam every 5 seconds (380 regen, 190 per sec) in reality is far less than that. Bosmer can hit crazy numbers with their 258 SCALABLE regen that procs ALL THE TIME unless blocking or sprinting and can EASILY surpass a redguard’s IDEAL regen.

In combat sustain should out do out of combat sustain. Does that mean adding on 100 more regen to redguard? Maybe not. Does it mean buffing adrenaline rush or martial knowledge? Likely

Not really. Even when doing AoE damage it is easy to weave in LAs to proc the passive just like it was before. I am sure someone can come up with niche situations to support your claim but that is all I can see that would make

Even your comparison to the bosmer is ignoring they have a very niche passive for penetration making your comparison look rather incomplete.

Problem here is You simply wont be able to deal direct dmg excatly every 5 seconds even when in combat. You weave light attacks+skills every 0,9 second in perfect scenario and usually every 1-1,2 second in more realistic scenario. So if cooldown on redguard passive ends like 0,1 sec after Your last attack then You'll have some small downtime on the passive which will stack throughout the fight resulting with realistic regen on redguard being lower then expected 390. Usually on target dummy it's ~350 and in real fights it gets closer to 300. And that is still assuming vast majority of the fight You're non stop attacking the enemy which not always happens.

Not really. Half decent players will be providing two opportunities every 1 to 1.2 seconds.

Yes, that means a player will not be procing the passive at every 5 seconds exactly but one would have to think Zos, and especially Gilliam, is pretty ignorant of combat in this game to have not taken that into consideration when they updated the passives. I for one do not think Gill is obuse to these things as he probably knows more about combat in this game than most players and everyone at Zos.

Problem is that providing 2 oportunities every 1-1,2 second will happen rarely for most of the players in PvE and never in PvP. For example in content like BGs redguards restore per second is arevaring around 100 while in fight. In Pve it's usually ~150 for decent players (slightly more for very good players and less for casuals). So either ZoS knowingly made redguard passive circumstancial or they didn't predict that not every enemy is a target dummy. Both options seems pretty bad for players having redguard characters.

I used to run with a very casual group of players and was able to get them clearing the trials early on in this game in part because they bothered to learn to weave basic attacks into their skills. I also often weave in PvP but that is because it is a habit for me.

Your suggestion that the game should be balanced to a lower skill level just makes those who can even stronger and creates a greater divide between those who can and those who cannot. That is a pretty bad idea. After a few weeks and only two pages on this thread it seem the idea does not have much support. BTW, I have three redguards that I have chosen to keep redguards.

Umm my suggestion ? Where did I suggest anything ? All I said is that currently redguard pretty much sucks and lacks identity in real fights. There was no suggestion that game should be balanced around low tier players lol. And btw there is plenty of was to implement passives the way that will benefit all types of players equally like for example changing redguard passive to proc out of all damage (just an example though not a suggestion).

Umm. You said some players are not able to get 2 opportunities every 1/1/2 second. In the context of saying that in this thread it seems rather evident you are suggesting that the Redguard passive be buffed based on the lesser skilled player that is challenged with weaving basic attacks.

So if you were just saying that out of the blue and not having anything to do with the context of this thread and my related comments then my bad. I just figured there was an actual reason it was mentioned.

It has nothing todo with bad players but the fact that no where aside from a standing still target dummy are you getting the opportunity to stand still and land all your attacks. In PvP you have to block/go defensive/los/kite/re position/dodge roll/ etc. where you simply cannot land direct damage exactly on the 5 sec cd to obtain the full regen off cd. Making it proc off all damage such as dots would help with this even though in every situation it isn't possible to sustain a dot when kiting/los etc. same with PvE.

Gnortranermara

ZOS has made it perfectly clear that they are not interested in "balance" when it comes to racial passives. Balancing them is a trivially easy task that any half-decent modder could pull off in a few hours of work. If this were a moddable single player game like NWN2 (which I modded extensively, including a mildly popular racepack), I would have ungorked them myself years ago. But ZOS deliberately keeps them unbalanced in order to sell race change token to those of us (myself included) lazy enough and dumb enough to buy them.

Juhasow

idk wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

idk wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

You also want 100 regen on top of the 950 stamina you get back back every 5 seconds while you're doing direct damage? That would amount to 480 regen while in battle.

That's a lot better than a Breton.

Well the 950 stam every 5 seconds (380 regen, 190 per sec) in reality is far less than that. Bosmer can hit crazy numbers with their 258 SCALABLE regen that procs ALL THE TIME unless blocking or sprinting and can EASILY surpass a redguard’s IDEAL regen.

In combat sustain should out do out of combat sustain. Does that mean adding on 100 more regen to redguard? Maybe not. Does it mean buffing adrenaline rush or martial knowledge? Likely

Not really. Even when doing AoE damage it is easy to weave in LAs to proc the passive just like it was before. I am sure someone can come up with niche situations to support your claim but that is all I can see that would make

Even your comparison to the bosmer is ignoring they have a very niche passive for penetration making your comparison look rather incomplete.

Problem here is You simply wont be able to deal direct dmg excatly every 5 seconds even when in combat. You weave light attacks+skills every 0,9 second in perfect scenario and usually every 1-1,2 second in more realistic scenario. So if cooldown on redguard passive ends like 0,1 sec after Your last attack then You'll have some small downtime on the passive which will stack throughout the fight resulting with realistic regen on redguard being lower then expected 390. Usually on target dummy it's ~350 and in real fights it gets closer to 300. And that is still assuming vast majority of the fight You're non stop attacking the enemy which not always happens.

Not really. Half decent players will be providing two opportunities every 1 to 1.2 seconds.

Yes, that means a player will not be procing the passive at every 5 seconds exactly but one would have to think Zos, and especially Gilliam, is pretty ignorant of combat in this game to have not taken that into consideration when they updated the passives. I for one do not think Gill is obuse to these things as he probably knows more about combat in this game than most players and everyone at Zos.

Problem is that providing 2 oportunities every 1-1,2 second will happen rarely for most of the players in PvE and never in PvP. For example in content like BGs redguards restore per second is arevaring around 100 while in fight. In Pve it's usually ~150 for decent players (slightly more for very good players and less for casuals). So either ZoS knowingly made redguard passive circumstancial or they didn't predict that not every enemy is a target dummy. Both options seems pretty bad for players having redguard characters.

I used to run with a very casual group of players and was able to get them clearing the trials early on in this game in part because they bothered to learn to weave basic attacks into their skills. I also often weave in PvP but that is because it is a habit for me.

Your suggestion that the game should be balanced to a lower skill level just makes those who can even stronger and creates a greater divide between those who can and those who cannot. That is a pretty bad idea. After a few weeks and only two pages on this thread it seem the idea does not have much support. BTW, I have three redguards that I have chosen to keep redguards.

Umm my suggestion ? Where did I suggest anything ? All I said is that currently redguard pretty much sucks and lacks identity in real fights. There was no suggestion that game should be balanced around low tier players lol. And btw there is plenty of was to implement passives the way that will benefit all types of players equally like for example changing redguard passive to proc out of all damage (just an example though not a suggestion).

Umm. You said some players are not able to get 2 opportunities every 1/1/2 second. In the context of saying that in this thread it seems rather evident you are suggesting that the Redguard passive be buffed based on the lesser skilled player that is challenged with weaving basic attacks.

So if you were just saying that out of the blue and not having anything to do with the context of this thread and my related comments then my bad. I just figured there was an actual reason it was mentioned.

I've said quote "problem is that providing 2 oportunities every 1-1,2 second will happen rarely for most of the players in PvE and never in PvP". I never said the reason for that is their skill level. In real combat You'll simply rarely do direct damage every 1-1,2 sec for few minutes straight.

thadjarvis

The redguard passive rewards being aggressive with weapons or permablocking. For sustain, class skill, LoS, dodging, and retreat focused play style Woody fits. Makes sense in lore. Having a sustain race for a warrior play-style (brawling with weapons) and one for hoping around with often magical looking class skills is good right?

DW is the ideal weapon (high cost and high direct damage frequency) to benefit from redguard but not currently the most popular weapon choice.
Tweaking the passive so that Bow/2h get the same uptime as DW while still emphasizing persistent direct damage could help.

Permablocking benefit falls short for many tanks due to the entire relative passives package.
As suggested above, adding physical resist could give a nod for tanks (not claiming meta; just slightly more useful).

Honestly though, they are lots of fun on stamsorc's right now.

Slight aside:
Curious, how would redguard stack with warden snare reduction? Is it additive such that a 30% snare would have no effect?

idk

Juhasow wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

idk wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

You also want 100 regen on top of the 950 stamina you get back back every 5 seconds while you're doing direct damage? That would amount to 480 regen while in battle.

That's a lot better than a Breton.

Well the 950 stam every 5 seconds (380 regen, 190 per sec) in reality is far less than that. Bosmer can hit crazy numbers with their 258 SCALABLE regen that procs ALL THE TIME unless blocking or sprinting and can EASILY surpass a redguard’s IDEAL regen.

In combat sustain should out do out of combat sustain. Does that mean adding on 100 more regen to redguard? Maybe not. Does it mean buffing adrenaline rush or martial knowledge? Likely

Not really. Even when doing AoE damage it is easy to weave in LAs to proc the passive just like it was before. I am sure someone can come up with niche situations to support your claim but that is all I can see that would make

Even your comparison to the bosmer is ignoring they have a very niche passive for penetration making your comparison look rather incomplete.

Problem here is You simply wont be able to deal direct dmg excatly every 5 seconds even when in combat. You weave light attacks+skills every 0,9 second in perfect scenario and usually every 1-1,2 second in more realistic scenario. So if cooldown on redguard passive ends like 0,1 sec after Your last attack then You'll have some small downtime on the passive which will stack throughout the fight resulting with realistic regen on redguard being lower then expected 390. Usually on target dummy it's ~350 and in real fights it gets closer to 300. And that is still assuming vast majority of the fight You're non stop attacking the enemy which not always happens.

Not really. Half decent players will be providing two opportunities every 1 to 1.2 seconds.

Yes, that means a player will not be procing the passive at every 5 seconds exactly but one would have to think Zos, and especially Gilliam, is pretty ignorant of combat in this game to have not taken that into consideration when they updated the passives. I for one do not think Gill is obuse to these things as he probably knows more about combat in this game than most players and everyone at Zos.

Problem is that providing 2 oportunities every 1-1,2 second will happen rarely for most of the players in PvE and never in PvP. For example in content like BGs redguards restore per second is arevaring around 100 while in fight. In Pve it's usually ~150 for decent players (slightly more for very good players and less for casuals). So either ZoS knowingly made redguard passive circumstancial or they didn't predict that not every enemy is a target dummy. Both options seems pretty bad for players having redguard characters.

I used to run with a very casual group of players and was able to get them clearing the trials early on in this game in part because they bothered to learn to weave basic attacks into their skills. I also often weave in PvP but that is because it is a habit for me.

Your suggestion that the game should be balanced to a lower skill level just makes those who can even stronger and creates a greater divide between those who can and those who cannot. That is a pretty bad idea. After a few weeks and only two pages on this thread it seem the idea does not have much support. BTW, I have three redguards that I have chosen to keep redguards.

Umm my suggestion ? Where did I suggest anything ? All I said is that currently redguard pretty much sucks and lacks identity in real fights. There was no suggestion that game should be balanced around low tier players lol. And btw there is plenty of was to implement passives the way that will benefit all types of players equally like for example changing redguard passive to proc out of all damage (just an example though not a suggestion).

Umm. You said some players are not able to get 2 opportunities every 1/1/2 second. In the context of saying that in this thread it seems rather evident you are suggesting that the Redguard passive be buffed based on the lesser skilled player that is challenged with weaving basic attacks.

So if you were just saying that out of the blue and not having anything to do with the context of this thread and my related comments then my bad. I just figured there was an actual reason it was mentioned.

I've said quote "problem is that providing 2 oportunities every 1-1,2 second will happen rarely for most of the players in PvE and never in PvP". I never said the reason for that is their skill level. In real combat You'll simply rarely do direct damage every 1-1,2 sec for few minutes straight.

Odd. I had thought that a basic attack was direct damage and since a moderately skilled and practiced player will be weaving attacks before skills then they will be doing direct damage every 1-1/1/2 second. There is a reason why some players do significantly greater damage than others.

Even in PvP I weave LAs often so to say never in PvP is an absolute that is factually flawed. Maybe we just run with group of players as even the more casual guild I run with some does better than what you are claiming for yourself.

I will say I weave LAs always in PvE but less often in PvP, but still do. However, race passives should not be balanced to that lower number and especially to players who chose to not weave much. It becomes OP in other situations.

@Ladislao presents a comparison worth looking at in the post right after this one. It shows the Redguard performing quite well in situations. Zos needs to consider when a player can get the passive to perform at it's best vs when a player cannot get the most out of it due to their chosen playstyle.