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Remove the stun from 'Streak'
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Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »
And then ud complain about sorcs guaranteed one shots on people like with old rune cage. Lmao.MartiniDaniels wrote: »Sorry, what? Streak stun is unblockable already 2 patches. And Fossilize unlike Streak doesn't provide gap closer/escape tool, have lesser range, larger cost and is not aoe. Fossilize is powerful yes, but i'll trade it for Streak any day. (as stamDK main)
What's the difference between timing meteor, curse with streak into frags (+mages fury as an option) vs doing the same with fossilize? Difference is only in terms that using streak requires skill, while fossilize works always if target is not cc-immune.
I'm not saying that streak stun itself is something unbearable, problem is that it grants gap closer/escape tool too. Basically 3 abilities in 1. Of course it's nice to have such abilities, but problem is that DK was nerfed to the point that class doesn't have any such "universal" ability at all. Yes, we have leap, but that is ultimate.
I understand that DK is sort of counter to magsorc (and magblade) with fossilize draining stamina and wings negating burst, but all that doesn't work against other classes so good.
Night and day difference actually. With streak, you have to wait for the animation to end and turn around before following up giving time to ur opponent to cc break. Best case scenario you maybe get 1 hit at ur opponent before cc breaking which is also why the streak combo is only really effective with meteor since meteor is a backloaded ult. With any other ult its kinda iffy to use streak cause you simply wont have enough time to follow up with ur burst.
There is a reason why with old rune cage there was an outrage demanding the skill to be butchered while with streak there isnt much of a hassle outside the usual threads. That is because their practical application isnt even remotely the same.
So again, wanna trade fossilize with streak. Just know that you will be bringing old rune cage meta back and you will be back here asking fossilize to be butchered cause you will literally have zero counterplay to sorc burst and asking for streak to be buffed cause the stun is not reliable offensively. Not saying fossilize as an ability is better than streak. Its not, but in terms of reliable offensive cc, its not even a contest. Fossilize is simply better.
But there is already fossilize alternative available to everyone - turn evil, which is btw harder cc then fossilize, in terms of break free. Yeah, it is rather costly for magicka builds but if it guaranteed successful burst against balanced builds, I'm sure magsorcs would use it. But obviously no magsorc use it, why? Altmer or dunmer could afford it. They don't use it because it requires coming into close melee range first and there is simply no place on magsorc bars both for gap closer and hard-cc. Thus, streak is perfect ability because it's both gap closer and unblockable cc (and kite tool as well). Key point here is that streak requires skill to use and it is not so easy to land against agile opponent.. which sort of balances it out.
But if you are playing not very agile build, streak is like a can-opener against you
and it is more deadly on stamsorcs too.
Overall, I'll be ok with streak if ZOS buffed empowering chains. Those are really in pitiful state in comparison to other gap closers and given that it is gap closer of most melee oriented class... it is weird that melee class has worst gap closer in the game (well, worst after "flying blade").
The argument is about the reliability of a cc and bringing turn evil into the discussion literally proves my point. Just because ability A and ability B are both undodgeable and unblockable it doesn't mean that their practical application is the same. Turn evil is not good because it costs a third of ur Stam and requires u to be on top of ur opponent which makes it unreliable even tho it can't be blocked and dodged. Same with Streak, it can't be blocked or dodged but it's practical application as an offensive cc is very different compared to fossilize or old rune cage because you have to wait the animation to end and turn around before following up with ur burst.
Ita common sense really. There was an outrage with old rune cage. Undodgeable unblockable and dealt damage. Same with Streak with the added benefit that u don't have to sacrifice an ability to run it since it was already on ur bar. So logic says that that there should be an even bigger outrage with sorcs and their guaranteed burst with no counters with butcher Streak threads popping left right and center. And yet there isn't. Well that is because its practical application is not even close to old rune cage since the ability has restrictions built in the ability itself when u look at it from a cc perspective.
Yes, and also because sorcs received ton of indirect nerfs (clench, soul assault, pirate skeleton and so on) and now sorc though still powerful but not most powerful class anymore. If ZOS instead of buffing underperforming abilities will just nerf jabs to the ground, next patch there will be new favorite "nerf item" and it might be Streak. So in our all interest is to convince ZOS to stop nerfing and instead provide viable means to counter play powerful combos.
We definitely don't need more defense or protections, we need more multi-function abilities (like Streak) which will left some space on bars to slot more damaging abilities.
I don’t think jabs is an issue. I’m noticing more sorcs all the time not Templars.
I swear half the people in BGs these days are sorcs. If you look at the leaderboard I think half those names are sorcs too.
Here is a table with comparison of stam spammables (which you probably already saw), I tried to make it as objective as possible. It's pretty clear that other classes then templar must have access to sustained dps of jabs. It may be more effective dots, better class spammables, access to damage buffs whatever... as for now jabs with 1.0 cast time channel, deal 1.7 times more damage then Warden's dizzy with 0.8 cast time (with minor berserk and 2 animal abilities slotted).. no amount of la weaving difference/class passives/roll-dodges/sidesteps will compensate for that.
Since you are so intent on being objective, how about you actually play a Stamplar and see whether or not those dps numbers you are trying to pawn off as truth are reflective in what actually happens in game? There is an animation bug in the game that still retains the old cast-time an global cooldown, which your chart blissfully ignores. Go ahead and show us how easy is is to get that 1 second cast time you deem is so important that it puts poor stamina wardens to shame.
Let's increase dizzy cast time to 1 second and damage in 70% to compensate for less light attacks per second on jabs? /s
PVE stamplars are using jabs instead of wreckling blow, this is all proof you need about what it more effective even if we won't account snare, minor protection and major savagery all of which are useless in dummy parsing. Animation bug may happen to any cast time ability.. hell, that bug may happen to any ability, even to light attacks which sometimes turn to double medium attacks with screen freezed for 1 GCD.
And again - all the problem with toppling charge/jab spammers appeared after direct nerfs to DK, NB and in some extent to sorc. Previously you'll be melting in claw, noxious and stinging slashes while DK will dodge your jabs after applying dots. NB will deliver 20k+ burst in 1-2 GCD from cloak without damned cast time incap with silence instead of stun... pre-U23 Sorc will go with standard combo but stunning you from distance without necessity to streak through you to deliver burst.
So you may say that it was good that 1st, 2nd and 3rd best specs (magsorc, stamNB, stamDK) were nerfed to let other specs shine for a time. But jabs/toppling/sweep spam is not a shine. It is just dumb easy to use, hard to counter powerful combo. Warden may deliver very deadly bursts but they need to precisely time shalks, cast time DBoS and also predict what enemy will do. To spam jabs, toppling and sweep not much prediction is needed.
The bug does not just happen with any ability, it is related to anything that had a cast time that ZOS supposedly lower to 1 second. The problem is that while they adjusted the cast time, they did not adjust the animation, so it doesn't sync.
See here:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/478528/templars-channels-and-the-elsweyr-changes#latest
Before you go and nerf the skill, how about ZoS actually fixes it first? Oh, Magplars are still using Elemental Weapon so you might want to adjust your chart.
In your own linked thread, there is actual test from combat metrics (not perception, but measurement) with counter argument by @ecru... but ok, i did test myself, since I have magplar and played one quite a lot - 120 hits in 30 seconds, i.e. exactly 30 jabs in 30 seconds:
There is no bug. Of course if game lags experience may vary. But it will vary for all abilities in the game. In peak hours bar swap often have 1 second delay if happen at all and ultimate may play animation of going out but didn't trigger...
I logged on hoping to all hopes that ZOS actually fixed this. But they didn't.
So where's the light attack weave? I too can quickly press my #2 key to cut short the longer than 1 second animation in a instanced environment with no lag, but that doesn't change the fact that the animation time does not match the cast-time of the skill. If you bothered to read the thread, I did say it was possible to override the game's animation and execute the next attack in a second with a weave, but this requires precise timing and a decent latency where such is possible. No other class spammable or instant cast requires a player to ignore what they are seeing on screen and instead cut short the animation in order to execute the skill as intended by the developers.
The fact that one should have to do this, regardless of the class they play, is absolute crap and would unacceptable even in Kickstarter game, to say nothing of a AAA title that supposedly has millions of players.
You and ecru both believe that it's perfectly fine that players have to go through these shenanigans and deal with incongruous animations, which says everything that needs to be said regarding your "objectivity." One of the starting points for having an objective conversation is to have it as a given that a class or playstyle will actually have skills function according to their tooltips in any setting before you go around swinging the nerf bat. The day ZOS fixes the animation and no PvE Magplar DPS has to spend hours or crowns getting Elemental Weapon, I will come onto the forums and consent to a damage nerf. But I'm kind of funny that way; I prefer animations and cast-times to sync up and function at least as reasonable as other skill when I'm playing the lovely 300+ Ping I get in Cyrodiil.
This "bug" happens to any ability in the game, even to light attacks themselves. Not only jabs are vulnerable to lag, majority of abilities are. Of course you can't weave 30 light attacks with 30 1-second length channels. But 2x difference in damage with instant cast abilities more then compensates for this. PVE magplars use elemental weapon because empowered light attacks on VMA staff do more damage then spammable but for stamina that is not so critical. And of course in PVP there are no VMA staves and empower from solar barrage. Of course light attacks are still important in PVP, but speaking of jabs... i noticed that those templars who lazily jab you waiting for something are really not that damaging. But those who jab-jab-jab non stop without light attacks - this ones have much higher pressure. So ironically yes, in PVP you don't want to weave light attacks on jabs other then for enchantment proc. Mash that button and you'll be surprised with damage output.
Btw, another table with executes comparison:
Executioner starts over performing jabs only at 15%!
Practice is truth - in practice most dangerous templars are not dancing with you. They just throw potl - toppling - jab-jab-jab-> toppling -> sweep/onslaught -> jab-jab-jab.
You are a piece of work. The bug does not happen to any ability in the game. In the video I linked there is perfect 30 light attack weaves with 30 crushing shocks. It happens with cast-times because ZOS was too lazy to change the animations to match the cast-time (and removal of the .2 second GCD associated with cast-times). Rather than concede a basic fact, which is a prerequisite of being "objective" one might say, you think the incongruity is perfectly fine and why would templars ever want to weave in a light attack, which is an essential component to the game. You obviously aren't objective so don;t claim that you are.
And your chart is misleading (again) because there is no light attack included in your chart which is going to change the percentage when executioner (or radiant destruction) is used.
All I see in this thread is you making excuses why Streak, Templars, and everything else needs to be nerfed but DK Fossilize doesn;t because of some specious reasoning RAT is available for everyone to use (but somehow not for avoiding jabs).
You are just like 90% of the posters on this forum: nerf this and nerf that, but don;t nerf what I like to play because, err, reasons.Edited by Joy_Division on December 21, 2019 10:46PMMake Rush of Agony "Monsters only." People should not be consecutively crowd controlled in a PvP setting. Period.1 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »
And then ud complain about sorcs guaranteed one shots on people like with old rune cage. Lmao.MartiniDaniels wrote: »Sorry, what? Streak stun is unblockable already 2 patches. And Fossilize unlike Streak doesn't provide gap closer/escape tool, have lesser range, larger cost and is not aoe. Fossilize is powerful yes, but i'll trade it for Streak any day. (as stamDK main)
What's the difference between timing meteor, curse with streak into frags (+mages fury as an option) vs doing the same with fossilize? Difference is only in terms that using streak requires skill, while fossilize works always if target is not cc-immune.
I'm not saying that streak stun itself is something unbearable, problem is that it grants gap closer/escape tool too. Basically 3 abilities in 1. Of course it's nice to have such abilities, but problem is that DK was nerfed to the point that class doesn't have any such "universal" ability at all. Yes, we have leap, but that is ultimate.
I understand that DK is sort of counter to magsorc (and magblade) with fossilize draining stamina and wings negating burst, but all that doesn't work against other classes so good.
Night and day difference actually. With streak, you have to wait for the animation to end and turn around before following up giving time to ur opponent to cc break. Best case scenario you maybe get 1 hit at ur opponent before cc breaking which is also why the streak combo is only really effective with meteor since meteor is a backloaded ult. With any other ult its kinda iffy to use streak cause you simply wont have enough time to follow up with ur burst.
There is a reason why with old rune cage there was an outrage demanding the skill to be butchered while with streak there isnt much of a hassle outside the usual threads. That is because their practical application isnt even remotely the same.
So again, wanna trade fossilize with streak. Just know that you will be bringing old rune cage meta back and you will be back here asking fossilize to be butchered cause you will literally have zero counterplay to sorc burst and asking for streak to be buffed cause the stun is not reliable offensively. Not saying fossilize as an ability is better than streak. Its not, but in terms of reliable offensive cc, its not even a contest. Fossilize is simply better.
But there is already fossilize alternative available to everyone - turn evil, which is btw harder cc then fossilize, in terms of break free. Yeah, it is rather costly for magicka builds but if it guaranteed successful burst against balanced builds, I'm sure magsorcs would use it. But obviously no magsorc use it, why? Altmer or dunmer could afford it. They don't use it because it requires coming into close melee range first and there is simply no place on magsorc bars both for gap closer and hard-cc. Thus, streak is perfect ability because it's both gap closer and unblockable cc (and kite tool as well). Key point here is that streak requires skill to use and it is not so easy to land against agile opponent.. which sort of balances it out.
But if you are playing not very agile build, streak is like a can-opener against you and it is more deadly on stamsorcs too.
Overall, I'll be ok with streak if ZOS buffed empowering chains. Those are really in pitiful state in comparison to other gap closers and given that it is gap closer of most melee oriented class... it is weird that melee class has worst gap closer in the game (well, worst after "flying blade").
The argument is about the reliability of a cc and bringing turn evil into the discussion literally proves my point. Just because ability A and ability B are both undodgeable and unblockable it doesn't mean that their practical application is the same. Turn evil is not good because it costs a third of ur Stam and requires u to be on top of ur opponent which makes it unreliable even tho it can't be blocked and dodged. Same with Streak, it can't be blocked or dodged but it's practical application as an offensive cc is very different compared to fossilize or old rune cage because you have to wait the animation to end and turn around before following up with ur burst.
Ita common sense really. There was an outrage with old rune cage. Undodgeable unblockable and dealt damage. Same with Streak with the added benefit that u don't have to sacrifice an ability to run it since it was already on ur bar. So logic says that that there should be an even bigger outrage with sorcs and their guaranteed burst with no counters with butcher Streak threads popping left right and center. And yet there isn't. Well that is because its practical application is not even close to old rune cage since the ability has restrictions built in the ability itself when u look at it from a cc perspective.
Yes, and also because sorcs received ton of indirect nerfs (clench, soul assault, pirate skeleton and so on) and now sorc though still powerful but not most powerful class anymore. If ZOS instead of buffing underperforming abilities will just nerf jabs to the ground, next patch there will be new favorite "nerf item" and it might be Streak. So in our all interest is to convince ZOS to stop nerfing and instead provide viable means to counter play powerful combos.
We definitely don't need more defense or protections, we need more multi-function abilities (like Streak) which will left some space on bars to slot more damaging abilities.
I don’t think jabs is an issue. I’m noticing more sorcs all the time not Templars.
I swear half the people in BGs these days are sorcs. If you look at the leaderboard I think half those names are sorcs too.
Here is a table with comparison of stam spammables (which you probably already saw), I tried to make it as objective as possible. It's pretty clear that other classes then templar must have access to sustained dps of jabs. It may be more effective dots, better class spammables, access to damage buffs whatever... as for now jabs with 1.0 cast time channel, deal 1.7 times more damage then Warden's dizzy with 0.8 cast time (with minor berserk and 2 animal abilities slotted).. no amount of la weaving difference/class passives/roll-dodges/sidesteps will compensate for that.
Since you are so intent on being objective, how about you actually play a Stamplar and see whether or not those dps numbers you are trying to pawn off as truth are reflective in what actually happens in game? There is an animation bug in the game that still retains the old cast-time an global cooldown, which your chart blissfully ignores. Go ahead and show us how easy is is to get that 1 second cast time you deem is so important that it puts poor stamina wardens to shame.
Let's increase dizzy cast time to 1 second and damage in 70% to compensate for less light attacks per second on jabs? /s
PVE stamplars are using jabs instead of wreckling blow, this is all proof you need about what it more effective even if we won't account snare, minor protection and major savagery all of which are useless in dummy parsing. Animation bug may happen to any cast time ability.. hell, that bug may happen to any ability, even to light attacks which sometimes turn to double medium attacks with screen freezed for 1 GCD.
And again - all the problem with toppling charge/jab spammers appeared after direct nerfs to DK, NB and in some extent to sorc. Previously you'll be melting in claw, noxious and stinging slashes while DK will dodge your jabs after applying dots. NB will deliver 20k+ burst in 1-2 GCD from cloak without damned cast time incap with silence instead of stun... pre-U23 Sorc will go with standard combo but stunning you from distance without necessity to streak through you to deliver burst.
So you may say that it was good that 1st, 2nd and 3rd best specs (magsorc, stamNB, stamDK) were nerfed to let other specs shine for a time. But jabs/toppling/sweep spam is not a shine. It is just dumb easy to use, hard to counter powerful combo. Warden may deliver very deadly bursts but they need to precisely time shalks, cast time DBoS and also predict what enemy will do. To spam jabs, toppling and sweep not much prediction is needed.
The bug does not just happen with any ability, it is related to anything that had a cast time that ZOS supposedly lower to 1 second. The problem is that while they adjusted the cast time, they did not adjust the animation, so it doesn't sync.
See here:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/478528/templars-channels-and-the-elsweyr-changes#latest
Before you go and nerf the skill, how about ZoS actually fixes it first? Oh, Magplars are still using Elemental Weapon so you might want to adjust your chart.
In your own linked thread, there is actual test from combat metrics (not perception, but measurement) with counter argument by @ecru... but ok, i did test myself, since I have magplar and played one quite a lot - 120 hits in 30 seconds, i.e. exactly 30 jabs in 30 seconds:
There is no bug. Of course if game lags experience may vary. But it will vary for all abilities in the game. In peak hours bar swap often have 1 second delay if happen at all and ultimate may play animation of going out but didn't trigger...
I logged on hoping to all hopes that ZOS actually fixed this. But they didn't.
So where's the light attack weave? I too can quickly press my #2 key to cut short the longer than 1 second animation in a instanced environment with no lag, but that doesn't change the fact that the animation time does not match the cast-time of the skill. If you bothered to read the thread, I did say it was possible to override the game's animation and execute the next attack in a second with a weave, but this requires precise timing and a decent latency where such is possible. No other class spammable or instant cast requires a player to ignore what they are seeing on screen and instead cut short the animation in order to execute the skill as intended by the developers.
The fact that one should have to do this, regardless of the class they play, is absolute crap and would unacceptable even in Kickstarter game, to say nothing of a AAA title that supposedly has millions of players.
You and ecru both believe that it's perfectly fine that players have to go through these shenanigans and deal with incongruous animations, which says everything that needs to be said regarding your "objectivity." One of the starting points for having an objective conversation is to have it as a given that a class or playstyle will actually have skills function according to their tooltips in any setting before you go around swinging the nerf bat. The day ZOS fixes the animation and no PvE Magplar DPS has to spend hours or crowns getting Elemental Weapon, I will come onto the forums and consent to a damage nerf. But I'm kind of funny that way; I prefer animations and cast-times to sync up and function at least as reasonable as other skill when I'm playing the lovely 300+ Ping I get in Cyrodiil.
This "bug" happens to any ability in the game, even to light attacks themselves. Not only jabs are vulnerable to lag, majority of abilities are. Of course you can't weave 30 light attacks with 30 1-second length channels. But 2x difference in damage with instant cast abilities more then compensates for this. PVE magplars use elemental weapon because empowered light attacks on VMA staff do more damage then spammable but for stamina that is not so critical. And of course in PVP there are no VMA staves and empower from solar barrage. Of course light attacks are still important in PVP, but speaking of jabs... i noticed that those templars who lazily jab you waiting for something are really not that damaging. But those who jab-jab-jab non stop without light attacks - this ones have much higher pressure. So ironically yes, in PVP you don't want to weave light attacks on jabs other then for enchantment proc. Mash that button and you'll be surprised with damage output.
Btw, another table with executes comparison:
Executioner starts over performing jabs only at 15%!
Practice is truth - in practice most dangerous templars are not dancing with you. They just throw potl - toppling - jab-jab-jab-> toppling -> sweep/onslaught -> jab-jab-jab.
You are a piece of work. The bug does not happen to any ability in the game. In the video I linked there is perfect 30 light attack weaves with 30 crushing shocks. It happens with cast-times because ZOS was too lazy to change the animations to match the cast-time (and removal of the .2 second GCD associated with cast-times). Rather than concede a basic fact, which is a prerequisite of being "objective" one might say, you think the incongruity is perfectly fine and why would templars ever want to weave in a light attack, which is an essential component to the game. You obviously aren't objective so don;t claim that you are.
And your chart is misleading (again) because there is no light attack included in your chart which is going to change the percentage when executioner (or radiant destruction) is used.
All I see in this thread is you making excuses why Streak, Templars, and everything else needs to be nerfed but DK Fossilize doesn;t because of some specious reasoning RAT is available for everyone to use (but somehow not for avoiding jabs).
You are just like 90% of the posters on this forum: nerf this and nerf that, but don;t nerf what I like to play because, err, reasons.
Jabs without weaving do more damage then dizzy with weaving, on same PVP build. If you don't believe try yourself and you'll be surprised.
And I don't ask to nerf, I always write - revert nerfs to DK and NB, buff necro, buff other 6 gap closers to toppling/streak level, that's all.
Now there are 3 versatile and good classes, i.e. those which can afford variety of builds with a lot of class abilities - templar, sorc, warden. Other 2 classes were nerfed all year long and should crutch on specific sets, shoe-horned builds and broken glitchy mechanics to remain competitive.
Yes, I'm stamDK main. During this year:
- wings nerfed, fossilize nerfed, corrosive armor nerfed
- my "class-defining" dots nerfed, basically 1.5 times less dps for 2 times higher cost;
- my weapon abilities - i.e. dizzy, stinging slashes, s&b skill line - nerfed several times
What was buffed? Combustion passive? Searing flame passive with which dots are still much weaker then before?
It's my legitimate right to ask for DK buffs in each thread. Stacking Fury and leaping on squishes is not an excuse to whole rain of nerfs class received in 2019.0 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »It's unfair to compare Fossilize and Streak: Fossilize is melee and ST, Streak is ranged and AoE
Sorcs in general dislike having fair comparissions.
For reference fossilize also does not save your ass out of an unwinnable fight but streak does, and It also guarantees your enemy will not be able to outrun you no matter what.
ıts fundementally wrong to give such a mobile class also good attrition/crowd control tool. make it blockable again, Its dumb and unreasonable.
Except it's not fair. It's only fair for ur anti sorc crusade. Cause when u actually look at reality and how the two stuns work in practice, ud have to be really biased to compare them in that way and call it a fair comparison.
Yeah yeah just like how CC breaking is ''counterplay'' but it totally wasn't when fossilize had high range.
Again, apples and oranges. One of them does actually allow you to cc break and counter the follow up, the other one doesn't. First learn how the abilities actually work in practice and then u can compare them. This is literally what people keep repeating over and over again. Put it through ur head.
It's first time I heard somebody complaining about breaking free from fossilize, at least at this patch. Also on my build I use it on cooldown and it is very rare when some solo players can't break free/roll-dodge even after several fossilizes and I don't have such problems as well. Fossilize is great in terms of it's reliability and capability to break rotations/combos, yes, but it's not glitchy like fear or knockback.
Oh ffs this is like talking to a wall. I didn't say that u can't cc break fossilize or that it's buggy. It's about whether you can counter the follow up. Seriously people are explaining you over and over and over again the concept behind the two stuns and how they actually work in practice and why they are different but u just don't get it.
And I'm not complaining about fossilize. The ability is fine. If you are going to make an argument at least do it properly and stop putting words in my mouth.Edited by pieratsos on December 22, 2019 12:08AM1 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Ragnarock41 wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »It's unfair to compare Fossilize and Streak: Fossilize is melee and ST, Streak is ranged and AoE
Sorcs in general dislike having fair comparissions.
For reference fossilize also does not save your ass out of an unwinnable fight but streak does, and It also guarantees your enemy will not be able to outrun you no matter what.
ıts fundementally wrong to give such a mobile class also good attrition/crowd control tool. make it blockable again, Its dumb and unreasonable.
Except it's not fair. It's only fair for ur anti sorc crusade. Cause when u actually look at reality and how the two stuns work in practice, ud have to be really biased to compare them in that way and call it a fair comparison.
Yeah yeah just like how CC breaking is ''counterplay'' but it totally wasn't when fossilize had high range.
Again, apples and oranges. One of them does actually allow you to cc break and counter the follow up, the other one doesn't. First learn how the abilities actually work in practice and then u can compare them. This is literally what people keep repeating over and over again. Put it through ur head.
I break free out of fossilize just fine.
And the point flew way over your head as expected. Lmao. Go back and read what I actually said and then come back and talk cause ur posts make u look like a dummy.2 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »It's unfair to compare Fossilize and Streak: Fossilize is melee and ST, Streak is ranged and AoE
Sorcs in general dislike having fair comparissions.
For reference fossilize also does not save your ass out of an unwinnable fight but streak does, and It also guarantees your enemy will not be able to outrun you no matter what.
ıts fundementally wrong to give such a mobile class also good attrition/crowd control tool. make it blockable again, Its dumb and unreasonable.
Except it's not fair. It's only fair for ur anti sorc crusade. Cause when u actually look at reality and how the two stuns work in practice, ud have to be really biased to compare them in that way and call it a fair comparison.
Yeah yeah just like how CC breaking is ''counterplay'' but it totally wasn't when fossilize had high range.
Again, apples and oranges. One of them does actually allow you to cc break and counter the follow up, the other one doesn't. First learn how the abilities actually work in practice and then u can compare them. This is literally what people keep repeating over and over again. Put it through ur head.
It's first time I heard somebody complaining about breaking free from fossilize, at least at this patch. Also on my build I use it on cooldown and it is very rare when some solo players can't break free/roll-dodge even after several fossilizes and I don't have such problems as well. Fossilize is great in terms of it's reliability and capability to break rotations/combos, yes, but it's not glitchy like fear or knockback.
Oh ffs this is like talking to a wall. I didn't say that u can't cc break fossilize or that it's buggy. It's about whether you can counter the follow up. Seriously people are explaining you over and over and over again the concept behind the two stuns and how they actually work in practice and why they are different but u just don't get it.
And I'm not complaining about fossilize. The ability is fine. If you are going to make an argument at least do it properly and stop putting words in my mouth.
Idk, maybe we are playing different games.
Streak - you break free and either roll-dodge or block to counter follow-up.
Fossilize - you break free and either roll dodge or block to counter follow-up.
You may even cloak after break free lol and you'll disappear with fossilize "roots" man, I'm using fossilize 100 times a day, 95% of players are dealing with stun+immobilize without much problems and they either die in 3 seconds from burst or don't die at all. It is extremely rare that somebody will "sit" in fossilize cage for full duration. 0 -
Lord-Otto✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »It's unfair to compare Fossilize and Streak: Fossilize is melee and ST, Streak is ranged and AoE
Sorcs in general dislike having fair comparissions.
For reference fossilize also does not save your ass out of an unwinnable fight but streak does, and It also guarantees your enemy will not be able to outrun you no matter what.
ıts fundementally wrong to give such a mobile class also good attrition/crowd control tool. make it blockable again, Its dumb and unreasonable.
Except it's not fair. It's only fair for ur anti sorc crusade. Cause when u actually look at reality and how the two stuns work in practice, ud have to be really biased to compare them in that way and call it a fair comparison.
Yeah yeah just like how CC breaking is ''counterplay'' but it totally wasn't when fossilize had high range.
Again, apples and oranges. One of them does actually allow you to cc break and counter the follow up, the other one doesn't. First learn how the abilities actually work in practice and then u can compare them. This is literally what people keep repeating over and over again. Put it through ur head.
It's first time I heard somebody complaining about breaking free from fossilize, at least at this patch. Also on my build I use it on cooldown and it is very rare when some solo players can't break free/roll-dodge even after several fossilizes and I don't have such problems as well. Fossilize is great in terms of it's reliability and capability to break rotations/combos, yes, but it's not glitchy like fear or knockback.
Oh ffs this is like talking to a wall. I didn't say that u can't cc break fossilize or that it's buggy. It's about whether you can counter the follow up. Seriously people are explaining you over and over and over again the concept behind the two stuns and how they actually work in practice and why they are different but u just don't get it.
And I'm not complaining about fossilize. The ability is fine. If you are going to make an argument at least do it properly and stop putting words in my mouth.
Idk, maybe we are playing different games.
Streak - you break free and either roll-dodge or block to counter follow-up.
Fossilize - you break free and either roll dodge or block to counter follow-up.
You may even cloak after break free lol and you'll disappear with fossilize "roots" man, I'm using fossilize 100 times a day, 95% of players are dealing with stun+immobilize without much problems and they either die in 3 seconds from burst or don't die at all. It is extremely rare that somebody will "sit" in fossilize cage for full duration.
You HAVE to rollblock Fossilize's follow-up if in danger. You DON'T have to rollblock Streak's follow-up, as the 180 costs enough time for you to break free and cast a shield or heal. That is, if your ping works. If there is a slight amount of lag involved causing you to break free a fraction of a second too late, Fossilize's follow-up WILL land. Unlike Streak's, where the break free window is more tolerant due to the 180. Lag is very, very common in Cyrodiil. That makes Fossilize so much more dangerous.1 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »It's unfair to compare Fossilize and Streak: Fossilize is melee and ST, Streak is ranged and AoE
Sorcs in general dislike having fair comparissions.
For reference fossilize also does not save your ass out of an unwinnable fight but streak does, and It also guarantees your enemy will not be able to outrun you no matter what.
ıts fundementally wrong to give such a mobile class also good attrition/crowd control tool. make it blockable again, Its dumb and unreasonable.
Except it's not fair. It's only fair for ur anti sorc crusade. Cause when u actually look at reality and how the two stuns work in practice, ud have to be really biased to compare them in that way and call it a fair comparison.
Yeah yeah just like how CC breaking is ''counterplay'' but it totally wasn't when fossilize had high range.
Again, apples and oranges. One of them does actually allow you to cc break and counter the follow up, the other one doesn't. First learn how the abilities actually work in practice and then u can compare them. This is literally what people keep repeating over and over again. Put it through ur head.
It's first time I heard somebody complaining about breaking free from fossilize, at least at this patch. Also on my build I use it on cooldown and it is very rare when some solo players can't break free/roll-dodge even after several fossilizes and I don't have such problems as well. Fossilize is great in terms of it's reliability and capability to break rotations/combos, yes, but it's not glitchy like fear or knockback.
Oh ffs this is like talking to a wall. I didn't say that u can't cc break fossilize or that it's buggy. It's about whether you can counter the follow up. Seriously people are explaining you over and over and over again the concept behind the two stuns and how they actually work in practice and why they are different but u just don't get it.
And I'm not complaining about fossilize. The ability is fine. If you are going to make an argument at least do it properly and stop putting words in my mouth.
Idk, maybe we are playing different games.
Streak - you break free and either roll-dodge or block to counter follow-up.
Fossilize - you break free and either roll dodge or block to counter follow-up.
You may even cloak after break free lol and you'll disappear with fossilize "roots" man, I'm using fossilize 100 times a day, 95% of players are dealing with stun+immobilize without much problems and they either die in 3 seconds from burst or don't die at all. It is extremely rare that somebody will "sit" in fossilize cage for full duration.
You HAVE to rollblock Fossilize's follow-up if in danger. You DON'T have to rollblock Streak's follow-up, as the 180 costs enough time for you to break free and cast a shield or heal. That is, if your ping works. If there is a slight amount of lag involved causing you to break free a fraction of a second too late, Fossilize's follow-up WILL land. Unlike Streak's, where the break free window is more tolerant due to the 180. Lag is very, very common in Cyrodiil. That makes Fossilize so much more dangerous.
I already explained that you can end streak in front of player and he still be stunned.
But anyway, if you all are trying to prove that fossilize is better then streak in terms of stunning somebody in melee range. Yes. It is better. Fossilize is actually best most reliable stun in the game in 7m range. But fossilize doesn't gap close and is not an escape tool and it doesn't cause longer unbreakable cc like knockback or fear. So fossilize is balanced in comparison to other stuns by facts that it is 7m range, single target and doesn't have glitchy break free.
Streak is not balanced in comparison to other gap closers (with exception of toppling charge), because other gap closers either don't stun or don't provide any notable utility.
P.S. Also you forget another factor, not only you need to turn 180 degrees after streak, your opponent must do it too after break free.
0 -
Lord-Otto✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »It's unfair to compare Fossilize and Streak: Fossilize is melee and ST, Streak is ranged and AoE
Sorcs in general dislike having fair comparissions.
For reference fossilize also does not save your ass out of an unwinnable fight but streak does, and It also guarantees your enemy will not be able to outrun you no matter what.
ıts fundementally wrong to give such a mobile class also good attrition/crowd control tool. make it blockable again, Its dumb and unreasonable.
Except it's not fair. It's only fair for ur anti sorc crusade. Cause when u actually look at reality and how the two stuns work in practice, ud have to be really biased to compare them in that way and call it a fair comparison.
Yeah yeah just like how CC breaking is ''counterplay'' but it totally wasn't when fossilize had high range.
Again, apples and oranges. One of them does actually allow you to cc break and counter the follow up, the other one doesn't. First learn how the abilities actually work in practice and then u can compare them. This is literally what people keep repeating over and over again. Put it through ur head.
It's first time I heard somebody complaining about breaking free from fossilize, at least at this patch. Also on my build I use it on cooldown and it is very rare when some solo players can't break free/roll-dodge even after several fossilizes and I don't have such problems as well. Fossilize is great in terms of it's reliability and capability to break rotations/combos, yes, but it's not glitchy like fear or knockback.
Oh ffs this is like talking to a wall. I didn't say that u can't cc break fossilize or that it's buggy. It's about whether you can counter the follow up. Seriously people are explaining you over and over and over again the concept behind the two stuns and how they actually work in practice and why they are different but u just don't get it.
And I'm not complaining about fossilize. The ability is fine. If you are going to make an argument at least do it properly and stop putting words in my mouth.
Idk, maybe we are playing different games.
Streak - you break free and either roll-dodge or block to counter follow-up.
Fossilize - you break free and either roll dodge or block to counter follow-up.
You may even cloak after break free lol and you'll disappear with fossilize "roots" man, I'm using fossilize 100 times a day, 95% of players are dealing with stun+immobilize without much problems and they either die in 3 seconds from burst or don't die at all. It is extremely rare that somebody will "sit" in fossilize cage for full duration.
You HAVE to rollblock Fossilize's follow-up if in danger. You DON'T have to rollblock Streak's follow-up, as the 180 costs enough time for you to break free and cast a shield or heal. That is, if your ping works. If there is a slight amount of lag involved causing you to break free a fraction of a second too late, Fossilize's follow-up WILL land. Unlike Streak's, where the break free window is more tolerant due to the 180. Lag is very, very common in Cyrodiil. That makes Fossilize so much more dangerous.
I already explained that you can end streak in front of player and he still be stunned.
But anyway, if you all are trying to prove that fossilize is better then streak in terms of stunning somebody in melee range. Yes. It is better. Fossilize is actually best most reliable stun in the game in 7m range. But fossilize doesn't gap close and is not an escape tool and it doesn't cause longer unbreakable cc like knockback or fear. So fossilize is balanced in comparison to other stuns by facts that it is 7m range, single target and doesn't have glitchy break free.
Streak is not balanced in comparison to other gap closers (with exception of toppling charge), because other gap closers either don't stun or don't provide any notable utility.
P.S. Also you forget another factor, not only you need to turn 180 degrees after streak, your opponent must do it too after break free.
And I already told you: there is your counterplay - stay close to the ranged sorc. Enforce the 180.
I also told you (or at least I think it was you): Streak for the ranged mobility class makes sense to be a gap opener, Fossilize for the melee tank class makes sense to be a root. This is class identity.
Your argument at the end is just grasping for straws. You don't need to aim at the enemy for defensive maneuvers. Come on, man!1 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »It's unfair to compare Fossilize and Streak: Fossilize is melee and ST, Streak is ranged and AoE
Sorcs in general dislike having fair comparissions.
For reference fossilize also does not save your ass out of an unwinnable fight but streak does, and It also guarantees your enemy will not be able to outrun you no matter what.
ıts fundementally wrong to give such a mobile class also good attrition/crowd control tool. make it blockable again, Its dumb and unreasonable.
Except it's not fair. It's only fair for ur anti sorc crusade. Cause when u actually look at reality and how the two stuns work in practice, ud have to be really biased to compare them in that way and call it a fair comparison.
Yeah yeah just like how CC breaking is ''counterplay'' but it totally wasn't when fossilize had high range.
Again, apples and oranges. One of them does actually allow you to cc break and counter the follow up, the other one doesn't. First learn how the abilities actually work in practice and then u can compare them. This is literally what people keep repeating over and over again. Put it through ur head.
It's first time I heard somebody complaining about breaking free from fossilize, at least at this patch. Also on my build I use it on cooldown and it is very rare when some solo players can't break free/roll-dodge even after several fossilizes and I don't have such problems as well. Fossilize is great in terms of it's reliability and capability to break rotations/combos, yes, but it's not glitchy like fear or knockback.
Oh ffs this is like talking to a wall. I didn't say that u can't cc break fossilize or that it's buggy. It's about whether you can counter the follow up. Seriously people are explaining you over and over and over again the concept behind the two stuns and how they actually work in practice and why they are different but u just don't get it.
And I'm not complaining about fossilize. The ability is fine. If you are going to make an argument at least do it properly and stop putting words in my mouth.
Idk, maybe we are playing different games.
Streak - you break free and either roll-dodge or block to counter follow-up.
Fossilize - you break free and either roll dodge or block to counter follow-up.
You may even cloak after break free lol and you'll disappear with fossilize "roots" man, I'm using fossilize 100 times a day, 95% of players are dealing with stun+immobilize without much problems and they either die in 3 seconds from burst or don't die at all. It is extremely rare that somebody will "sit" in fossilize cage for full duration.
You HAVE to rollblock Fossilize's follow-up if in danger. You DON'T have to rollblock Streak's follow-up, as the 180 costs enough time for you to break free and cast a shield or heal. That is, if your ping works. If there is a slight amount of lag involved causing you to break free a fraction of a second too late, Fossilize's follow-up WILL land. Unlike Streak's, where the break free window is more tolerant due to the 180. Lag is very, very common in Cyrodiil. That makes Fossilize so much more dangerous.
I already explained that you can end streak in front of player and he still be stunned.
But anyway, if you all are trying to prove that fossilize is better then streak in terms of stunning somebody in melee range. Yes. It is better. Fossilize is actually best most reliable stun in the game in 7m range. But fossilize doesn't gap close and is not an escape tool and it doesn't cause longer unbreakable cc like knockback or fear. So fossilize is balanced in comparison to other stuns by facts that it is 7m range, single target and doesn't have glitchy break free.
Streak is not balanced in comparison to other gap closers (with exception of toppling charge), because other gap closers either don't stun or don't provide any notable utility.
P.S. Also you forget another factor, not only you need to turn 180 degrees after streak, your opponent must do it too after break free.
And I already told you: there is your counterplay - stay close to the ranged sorc. Enforce the 180.
I also told you (or at least I think it was you): Streak for the ranged mobility class makes sense to be a gap opener, Fossilize for the melee tank class makes sense to be a root. This is class identity.
Your argument at the end is just grasping for straws. You don't need to aim at the enemy for defensive maneuvers. Come on, man!
I need to see what opponent is doing, to decide either to block, dodge or counterattack. In current tanky meta, sometimes only way to kill tanky player is to counterattack - i.e. use your burst during opponent's burst and it is perfect for DK playstyle due to battle roar.0 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »It's unfair to compare Fossilize and Streak: Fossilize is melee and ST, Streak is ranged and AoE
Sorcs in general dislike having fair comparissions.
For reference fossilize also does not save your ass out of an unwinnable fight but streak does, and It also guarantees your enemy will not be able to outrun you no matter what.
ıts fundementally wrong to give such a mobile class also good attrition/crowd control tool. make it blockable again, Its dumb and unreasonable.
Except it's not fair. It's only fair for ur anti sorc crusade. Cause when u actually look at reality and how the two stuns work in practice, ud have to be really biased to compare them in that way and call it a fair comparison.
Yeah yeah just like how CC breaking is ''counterplay'' but it totally wasn't when fossilize had high range.
Again, apples and oranges. One of them does actually allow you to cc break and counter the follow up, the other one doesn't. First learn how the abilities actually work in practice and then u can compare them. This is literally what people keep repeating over and over again. Put it through ur head.
It's first time I heard somebody complaining about breaking free from fossilize, at least at this patch. Also on my build I use it on cooldown and it is very rare when some solo players can't break free/roll-dodge even after several fossilizes and I don't have such problems as well. Fossilize is great in terms of it's reliability and capability to break rotations/combos, yes, but it's not glitchy like fear or knockback.
Oh ffs this is like talking to a wall. I didn't say that u can't cc break fossilize or that it's buggy. It's about whether you can counter the follow up. Seriously people are explaining you over and over and over again the concept behind the two stuns and how they actually work in practice and why they are different but u just don't get it.
And I'm not complaining about fossilize. The ability is fine. If you are going to make an argument at least do it properly and stop putting words in my mouth.
Idk, maybe we are playing different games.
Streak - you break free and either roll-dodge or block to counter follow-up.
Fossilize - you break free and either roll dodge or block to counter follow-up.
You may even cloak after break free lol and you'll disappear with fossilize "roots" man, I'm using fossilize 100 times a day, 95% of players are dealing with stun+immobilize without much problems and they either die in 3 seconds from burst or don't die at all. It is extremely rare that somebody will "sit" in fossilize cage for full duration.
Does fossilize puts you behind the target looking the other way and essentially making you wait the animation to end and then having to turn around before following up with ur burst? Absolutely not, so no they are not the same practice. End of story.
Yes you played with fossilize. But you have never used streak and whether you like it or not that makes you incapable of comparing them.
You attempted to create an argument, people address it and tell you why you are wrong and instead of addressing that you are moving the goalpost and resort to strawman arguments. Nicely done.2 -
Lord-Otto✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »It's unfair to compare Fossilize and Streak: Fossilize is melee and ST, Streak is ranged and AoE
Sorcs in general dislike having fair comparissions.
For reference fossilize also does not save your ass out of an unwinnable fight but streak does, and It also guarantees your enemy will not be able to outrun you no matter what.
ıts fundementally wrong to give such a mobile class also good attrition/crowd control tool. make it blockable again, Its dumb and unreasonable.
Except it's not fair. It's only fair for ur anti sorc crusade. Cause when u actually look at reality and how the two stuns work in practice, ud have to be really biased to compare them in that way and call it a fair comparison.
Yeah yeah just like how CC breaking is ''counterplay'' but it totally wasn't when fossilize had high range.
Again, apples and oranges. One of them does actually allow you to cc break and counter the follow up, the other one doesn't. First learn how the abilities actually work in practice and then u can compare them. This is literally what people keep repeating over and over again. Put it through ur head.
It's first time I heard somebody complaining about breaking free from fossilize, at least at this patch. Also on my build I use it on cooldown and it is very rare when some solo players can't break free/roll-dodge even after several fossilizes and I don't have such problems as well. Fossilize is great in terms of it's reliability and capability to break rotations/combos, yes, but it's not glitchy like fear or knockback.
Oh ffs this is like talking to a wall. I didn't say that u can't cc break fossilize or that it's buggy. It's about whether you can counter the follow up. Seriously people are explaining you over and over and over again the concept behind the two stuns and how they actually work in practice and why they are different but u just don't get it.
And I'm not complaining about fossilize. The ability is fine. If you are going to make an argument at least do it properly and stop putting words in my mouth.
Idk, maybe we are playing different games.
Streak - you break free and either roll-dodge or block to counter follow-up.
Fossilize - you break free and either roll dodge or block to counter follow-up.
You may even cloak after break free lol and you'll disappear with fossilize "roots" man, I'm using fossilize 100 times a day, 95% of players are dealing with stun+immobilize without much problems and they either die in 3 seconds from burst or don't die at all. It is extremely rare that somebody will "sit" in fossilize cage for full duration.
You HAVE to rollblock Fossilize's follow-up if in danger. You DON'T have to rollblock Streak's follow-up, as the 180 costs enough time for you to break free and cast a shield or heal. That is, if your ping works. If there is a slight amount of lag involved causing you to break free a fraction of a second too late, Fossilize's follow-up WILL land. Unlike Streak's, where the break free window is more tolerant due to the 180. Lag is very, very common in Cyrodiil. That makes Fossilize so much more dangerous.
I already explained that you can end streak in front of player and he still be stunned.
But anyway, if you all are trying to prove that fossilize is better then streak in terms of stunning somebody in melee range. Yes. It is better. Fossilize is actually best most reliable stun in the game in 7m range. But fossilize doesn't gap close and is not an escape tool and it doesn't cause longer unbreakable cc like knockback or fear. So fossilize is balanced in comparison to other stuns by facts that it is 7m range, single target and doesn't have glitchy break free.
Streak is not balanced in comparison to other gap closers (with exception of toppling charge), because other gap closers either don't stun or don't provide any notable utility.
P.S. Also you forget another factor, not only you need to turn 180 degrees after streak, your opponent must do it too after break free.
And I already told you: there is your counterplay - stay close to the ranged sorc. Enforce the 180.
I also told you (or at least I think it was you): Streak for the ranged mobility class makes sense to be a gap opener, Fossilize for the melee tank class makes sense to be a root. This is class identity.
Your argument at the end is just grasping for straws. You don't need to aim at the enemy for defensive maneuvers. Come on, man!
I need to see what opponent is doing, to decide either to block, dodge or counterattack. In current tanky meta, sometimes only way to kill tanky player is to counterattack - i.e. use your burst during opponent's burst and it is perfect for DK playstyle due to battle roar.
Then turn your camera while the sorc is still finishing his slow Streak animation.
Man, I can really feel you getting desperate. Your argumentation is getting frantic, all over the place and weaker and weaker. Just stop. Geez. Streak works differently than Fossilize and that's why it also brings different benefits. Just give it a rest and leave it at that.1 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Guys, whatever. Like moderators say - it is ok to disagree. For me it is obvious that streak and toppling charge are much better then other 6 gap closers, for you it is somehow balanced out by fossilize existence and fact that streak puts you behind target if used from less then 10 meters. Everyone stays at their opinion.0 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »Guys, whatever. Like moderators say - it is ok to disagree. For me it is obvious that streak and toppling charge are much better then other 6 gap closers, for you it is somehow balanced out by fossilize existence and fact that streak puts you behind target if used from less then 10 meters. Everyone stays at their opinion.
No, fossilize is just used to explain ur bias. We didn't say fossilize needs a nerf, but comparing it to streak as a stun and saying that streak has no counterplay while fossilize does its the definition of bias.
You are constantly grasping at straws and moving the goalposts instead of actually trying to explain ur position and use arguments to reinforce that position.
Even if we look at ur latest argument u still make no sense. For starters constantly using the ability in between the 12-15 meter range is a completely unrealistic scenario. And the same argument can be made for all abilities including fossilize to warrant a nerf. You can't judge abilities based on specific "extreme" scenarios. Under those circumstances every ability can be deemed useless and OP.
But even if we exclude all that and actually look at the argument u are essentially contradicting urself and u are actually proving the exact opposite of what u are trying to prove. If u use it at that range to land in front of ur opponent to overcome the "turning around hindrance" well guess what. U are in melee range which ironically is the argument u made to say that fossilize is balanced.Edited by pieratsos on December 22, 2019 11:45AM3 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »
And then ud complain about sorcs guaranteed one shots on people like with old rune cage. Lmao.MartiniDaniels wrote: »Sorry, what? Streak stun is unblockable already 2 patches. And Fossilize unlike Streak doesn't provide gap closer/escape tool, have lesser range, larger cost and is not aoe. Fossilize is powerful yes, but i'll trade it for Streak any day. (as stamDK main)
What's the difference between timing meteor, curse with streak into frags (+mages fury as an option) vs doing the same with fossilize? Difference is only in terms that using streak requires skill, while fossilize works always if target is not cc-immune.
I'm not saying that streak stun itself is something unbearable, problem is that it grants gap closer/escape tool too. Basically 3 abilities in 1. Of course it's nice to have such abilities, but problem is that DK was nerfed to the point that class doesn't have any such "universal" ability at all. Yes, we have leap, but that is ultimate.
I understand that DK is sort of counter to magsorc (and magblade) with fossilize draining stamina and wings negating burst, but all that doesn't work against other classes so good.
Night and day difference actually. With streak, you have to wait for the animation to end and turn around before following up giving time to ur opponent to cc break. Best case scenario you maybe get 1 hit at ur opponent before cc breaking which is also why the streak combo is only really effective with meteor since meteor is a backloaded ult. With any other ult its kinda iffy to use streak cause you simply wont have enough time to follow up with ur burst.
There is a reason why with old rune cage there was an outrage demanding the skill to be butchered while with streak there isnt much of a hassle outside the usual threads. That is because their practical application isnt even remotely the same.
So again, wanna trade fossilize with streak. Just know that you will be bringing old rune cage meta back and you will be back here asking fossilize to be butchered cause you will literally have zero counterplay to sorc burst and asking for streak to be buffed cause the stun is not reliable offensively. Not saying fossilize as an ability is better than streak. Its not, but in terms of reliable offensive cc, its not even a contest. Fossilize is simply better.
But there is already fossilize alternative available to everyone - turn evil, which is btw harder cc then fossilize, in terms of break free. Yeah, it is rather costly for magicka builds but if it guaranteed successful burst against balanced builds, I'm sure magsorcs would use it. But obviously no magsorc use it, why? Altmer or dunmer could afford it. They don't use it because it requires coming into close melee range first and there is simply no place on magsorc bars both for gap closer and hard-cc. Thus, streak is perfect ability because it's both gap closer and unblockable cc (and kite tool as well). Key point here is that streak requires skill to use and it is not so easy to land against agile opponent.. which sort of balances it out.
But if you are playing not very agile build, streak is like a can-opener against you and it is more deadly on stamsorcs too.
Overall, I'll be ok with streak if ZOS buffed empowering chains. Those are really in pitiful state in comparison to other gap closers and given that it is gap closer of most melee oriented class... it is weird that melee class has worst gap closer in the game (well, worst after "flying blade").
The argument is about the reliability of a cc and bringing turn evil into the discussion literally proves my point. Just because ability A and ability B are both undodgeable and unblockable it doesn't mean that their practical application is the same. Turn evil is not good because it costs a third of ur Stam and requires u to be on top of ur opponent which makes it unreliable even tho it can't be blocked and dodged. Same with Streak, it can't be blocked or dodged but it's practical application as an offensive cc is very different compared to fossilize or old rune cage because you have to wait the animation to end and turn around before following up with ur burst.
Ita common sense really. There was an outrage with old rune cage. Undodgeable unblockable and dealt damage. Same with Streak with the added benefit that u don't have to sacrifice an ability to run it since it was already on ur bar. So logic says that that there should be an even bigger outrage with sorcs and their guaranteed burst with no counters with butcher Streak threads popping left right and center. And yet there isn't. Well that is because its practical application is not even close to old rune cage since the ability has restrictions built in the ability itself when u look at it from a cc perspective.
Yes, and also because sorcs received ton of indirect nerfs (clench, soul assault, pirate skeleton and so on) and now sorc though still powerful but not most powerful class anymore. If ZOS instead of buffing underperforming abilities will just nerf jabs to the ground, next patch there will be new favorite "nerf item" and it might be Streak. So in our all interest is to convince ZOS to stop nerfing and instead provide viable means to counter play powerful combos.
We definitely don't need more defense or protections, we need more multi-function abilities (like Streak) which will left some space on bars to slot more damaging abilities.
I don’t think jabs is an issue. I’m noticing more sorcs all the time not Templars.
I swear half the people in BGs these days are sorcs. If you look at the leaderboard I think half those names are sorcs too.
Here is a table with comparison of stam spammables (which you probably already saw), I tried to make it as objective as possible. It's pretty clear that other classes then templar must have access to sustained dps of jabs. It may be more effective dots, better class spammables, access to damage buffs whatever... as for now jabs with 1.0 cast time channel, deal 1.7 times more damage then Warden's dizzy with 0.8 cast time (with minor berserk and 2 animal abilities slotted).. no amount of la weaving difference/class passives/roll-dodges/sidesteps will compensate for that.
Since you are so intent on being objective, how about you actually play a Stamplar and see whether or not those dps numbers you are trying to pawn off as truth are reflective in what actually happens in game? There is an animation bug in the game that still retains the old cast-time an global cooldown, which your chart blissfully ignores. Go ahead and show us how easy is is to get that 1 second cast time you deem is so important that it puts poor stamina wardens to shame.
Let's increase dizzy cast time to 1 second and damage in 70% to compensate for less light attacks per second on jabs? /s
PVE stamplars are using jabs instead of wreckling blow, this is all proof you need about what it more effective even if we won't account snare, minor protection and major savagery all of which are useless in dummy parsing. Animation bug may happen to any cast time ability.. hell, that bug may happen to any ability, even to light attacks which sometimes turn to double medium attacks with screen freezed for 1 GCD.
And again - all the problem with toppling charge/jab spammers appeared after direct nerfs to DK, NB and in some extent to sorc. Previously you'll be melting in claw, noxious and stinging slashes while DK will dodge your jabs after applying dots. NB will deliver 20k+ burst in 1-2 GCD from cloak without damned cast time incap with silence instead of stun... pre-U23 Sorc will go with standard combo but stunning you from distance without necessity to streak through you to deliver burst.
So you may say that it was good that 1st, 2nd and 3rd best specs (magsorc, stamNB, stamDK) were nerfed to let other specs shine for a time. But jabs/toppling/sweep spam is not a shine. It is just dumb easy to use, hard to counter powerful combo. Warden may deliver very deadly bursts but they need to precisely time shalks, cast time DBoS and also predict what enemy will do. To spam jabs, toppling and sweep not much prediction is needed.
The bug does not just happen with any ability, it is related to anything that had a cast time that ZOS supposedly lower to 1 second. The problem is that while they adjusted the cast time, they did not adjust the animation, so it doesn't sync.
See here:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/478528/templars-channels-and-the-elsweyr-changes#latest
Before you go and nerf the skill, how about ZoS actually fixes it first? Oh, Magplars are still using Elemental Weapon so you might want to adjust your chart.
In your own linked thread, there is actual test from combat metrics (not perception, but measurement) with counter argument by @ecru... but ok, i did test myself, since I have magplar and played one quite a lot - 120 hits in 30 seconds, i.e. exactly 30 jabs in 30 seconds:
There is no bug. Of course if game lags experience may vary. But it will vary for all abilities in the game. In peak hours bar swap often have 1 second delay if happen at all and ultimate may play animation of going out but didn't trigger...
I logged on hoping to all hopes that ZOS actually fixed this. But they didn't.
So where's the light attack weave? I too can quickly press my #2 key to cut short the longer than 1 second animation in a instanced environment with no lag, but that doesn't change the fact that the animation time does not match the cast-time of the skill. If you bothered to read the thread, I did say it was possible to override the game's animation and execute the next attack in a second with a weave, but this requires precise timing and a decent latency where such is possible. No other class spammable or instant cast requires a player to ignore what they are seeing on screen and instead cut short the animation in order to execute the skill as intended by the developers.
The fact that one should have to do this, regardless of the class they play, is absolute crap and would unacceptable even in Kickstarter game, to say nothing of a AAA title that supposedly has millions of players.
You and ecru both believe that it's perfectly fine that players have to go through these shenanigans and deal with incongruous animations, which says everything that needs to be said regarding your "objectivity." One of the starting points for having an objective conversation is to have it as a given that a class or playstyle will actually have skills function according to their tooltips in any setting before you go around swinging the nerf bat. The day ZOS fixes the animation and no PvE Magplar DPS has to spend hours or crowns getting Elemental Weapon, I will come onto the forums and consent to a damage nerf. But I'm kind of funny that way; I prefer animations and cast-times to sync up and function at least as reasonable as other skill when I'm playing the lovely 300+ Ping I get in Cyrodiil.
This "bug" happens to any ability in the game, even to light attacks themselves. Not only jabs are vulnerable to lag, majority of abilities are. Of course you can't weave 30 light attacks with 30 1-second length channels. But 2x difference in damage with instant cast abilities more then compensates for this. PVE magplars use elemental weapon because empowered light attacks on VMA staff do more damage then spammable but for stamina that is not so critical. And of course in PVP there are no VMA staves and empower from solar barrage. Of course light attacks are still important in PVP, but speaking of jabs... i noticed that those templars who lazily jab you waiting for something are really not that damaging. But those who jab-jab-jab non stop without light attacks - this ones have much higher pressure. So ironically yes, in PVP you don't want to weave light attacks on jabs other then for enchantment proc. Mash that button and you'll be surprised with damage output.
Btw, another table with executes comparison:
Executioner starts over performing jabs only at 15%!
Practice is truth - in practice most dangerous templars are not dancing with you. They just throw potl - toppling - jab-jab-jab-> toppling -> sweep/onslaught -> jab-jab-jab.
You are a piece of work. The bug does not happen to any ability in the game. In the video I linked there is perfect 30 light attack weaves with 30 crushing shocks. It happens with cast-times because ZOS was too lazy to change the animations to match the cast-time (and removal of the .2 second GCD associated with cast-times). Rather than concede a basic fact, which is a prerequisite of being "objective" one might say, you think the incongruity is perfectly fine and why would templars ever want to weave in a light attack, which is an essential component to the game. You obviously aren't objective so don;t claim that you are.
And your chart is misleading (again) because there is no light attack included in your chart which is going to change the percentage when executioner (or radiant destruction) is used.
All I see in this thread is you making excuses why Streak, Templars, and everything else needs to be nerfed but DK Fossilize doesn;t because of some specious reasoning RAT is available for everyone to use (but somehow not for avoiding jabs).
You are just like 90% of the posters on this forum: nerf this and nerf that, but don;t nerf what I like to play because, err, reasons.
Jabs without weaving do more damage then dizzy with weaving, on same PVP build. If you don't believe try yourself and you'll be surprised.
And I don't ask to nerf, I always write - revert nerfs to DK and NB, buff necro, buff other 6 gap closers to toppling/streak level, that's all.
Now there are 3 versatile and good classes, i.e. those which can afford variety of builds with a lot of class abilities - templar, sorc, warden. Other 2 classes were nerfed all year long and should crutch on specific sets, shoe-horned builds and broken glitchy mechanics to remain competitive.
Yes, I'm stamDK main. During this year:
- wings nerfed, fossilize nerfed, corrosive armor nerfed
- my "class-defining" dots nerfed, basically 1.5 times less dps for 2 times higher cost;
- my weapon abilities - i.e. dizzy, stinging slashes, s&b skill line - nerfed several times
What was buffed? Combustion passive? Searing flame passive with which dots are still much weaker then before?
It's my legitimate right to ask for DK buffs in each thread. Stacking Fury and leaping on squishes is not an excuse to whole rain of nerfs class received in 2019.
Someday you might realize your DK was nerfed because of people and attitudes just like yours: post misleading data and claim bugs are ok as long as things that are not "yours" get nerfed.
You reap what you sow.
Have fun with your DK.Edited by Joy_Division on December 22, 2019 5:09PMMake Rush of Agony "Monsters only." People should not be consecutively crowd controlled in a PvP setting. Period.2 -
2020 here guys and streak sorcs have absolutely no counter to them. Not even burst builds work thanks to the op better nerf aoe stun from streak.2 -
Psiion✭✭✭✭Greetings,
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