Remove the stun from 'Streak'
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technohic✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »Dear magsorcs, you understand that ton of the stamDK, stam/magplars, wardens, stamcros on server don't have access to unblockable stun at all? Majority of stamDK who use leap or heavy attack after dizzy because they can't afford fossilize, stamplars for unknown reason prefer toppling to turn evil and magplars have only toppling/javelin, stamdens who don't have access to any other stun then HA on off-balance or cast time DBoS? and who still prefer those to turn evil? In U21-22 magsorcs were using flame clench/reach (doesn't matter how morph is called it is obvious we are talking about stun one) and were borderline OP despite slow projectile as main stun?
Check video of talfx where he is nuking experienced prepared to fight people in 2 GCD without using no other stun other then meteor. It's in your own interest to make streak blockable - you'll have L2P argument on any threads like this. Until then it is 5m RADIUS aoe unblockable stun with gap closer/escape tool, which can be chained up to 6-7 times, effectively disengaging at will from any encounter if opponent is not magsorc at full magicka too. When you say that fossilize or turn evil are comparable (despite roughly same cost)... no comments and no point to discuss further.
Problem with turn level is it's not very responsive. Works great when you're in a zerg but opportunity cost is terrible when you're on your own and moving. Lag plays a part in it so maybe if they ever do improve performance? Lol Wont hold my breath.0 -
Lord-Otto✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Martini has shown his true colors. He got provided explanations about how Streak doesn't enable a true combo if he stays close. But in the end, he simply expects to not be CC'ed on cooldown, which is a laughable request. And of course, there's the attack on "OP sorcs". It really boils down to that, doesn't it? Sorcs are evil incarnate, right?2 -
Bobby_V_Rockit✭✭✭✭✭
✭I spend most of PvP combat CC’d, I’ve just learned to accept that I am very bad at it lol.0 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Martini has shown his true colors. He got provided explanations about how Streak doesn't enable a true combo if he stays close. But in the end, he simply expects to not be CC'ed on cooldown, which is a laughable request. And of course, there's the attack on "OP sorcs". It really boils down to that, doesn't it? Sorcs are evil incarnate, right?
Sorry, what?
First of all as DK I love magsorcs in U23-U24, they are usually high dps and interesting to fight with, this is like "high noon duel", who faster will deliver his concentrated burst.
I think both stam and magsorcs are fine right now, good class but not OP. And I multiple times stated, that I'm ok with current streak if other gap closers will be buffed to be more versatile. But as of U24 streak and toppling charge are MUCH better then any other gap closers, even without accounting class passives.
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Jabbs_Giggity✭✭✭✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »
And then ud complain about sorcs guaranteed one shots on people like with old rune cage. Lmao.MartiniDaniels wrote: »Sorry, what? Streak stun is unblockable already 2 patches. And Fossilize unlike Streak doesn't provide gap closer/escape tool, have lesser range, larger cost and is not aoe. Fossilize is powerful yes, but i'll trade it for Streak any day. (as stamDK main)
What's the difference between timing meteor, curse with streak into frags (+mages fury as an option) vs doing the same with fossilize? Difference is only in terms that using streak requires skill, while fossilize works always if target is not cc-immune.
I'm not saying that streak stun itself is something unbearable, problem is that it grants gap closer/escape tool too. Basically 3 abilities in 1. Of course it's nice to have such abilities, but problem is that DK was nerfed to the point that class doesn't have any such "universal" ability at all. Yes, we have leap, but that is ultimate.
I understand that DK is sort of counter to magsorc (and magblade) with fossilize draining stamina and wings negating burst, but all that doesn't work against other classes so good.
Night and day difference actually. With streak, you have to wait for the animation to end and turn around before following up giving time to ur opponent to cc break. Best case scenario you maybe get 1 hit at ur opponent before cc breaking which is also why the streak combo is only really effective with meteor since meteor is a backloaded ult. With any other ult its kinda iffy to use streak cause you simply wont have enough time to follow up with ur burst.
There is a reason why with old rune cage there was an outrage demanding the skill to be butchered while with streak there isnt much of a hassle outside the usual threads. That is because their practical application isnt even remotely the same.
So again, wanna trade fossilize with streak. Just know that you will be bringing old rune cage meta back and you will be back here asking fossilize to be butchered cause you will literally have zero counterplay to sorc burst and asking for streak to be buffed cause the stun is not reliable offensively. Not saying fossilize as an ability is better than streak. Its not, but in terms of reliable offensive cc, its not even a contest. Fossilize is simply better.
But there is already fossilize alternative available to everyone - turn evil, which is btw harder cc then fossilize, in terms of break free. Yeah, it is rather costly for magicka builds but if it guaranteed successful burst against balanced builds, I'm sure magsorcs would use it. But obviously no magsorc use it, why? Altmer or dunmer could afford it. They don't use it because it requires coming into close melee range first and there is simply no place on magsorc bars both for gap closer and hard-cc. Thus, streak is perfect ability because it's both gap closer and unblockable cc (and kite tool as well). Key point here is that streak requires skill to use and it is not so easy to land against agile opponent.. which sort of balances it out.
But if you are playing not very agile build, streak is like a can-opener against you
and it is more deadly on stamsorcs too.
Overall, I'll be ok with streak if ZOS buffed empowering chains. Those are really in pitiful state in comparison to other gap closers and given that it is gap closer of most melee oriented class... it is weird that melee class has worst gap closer in the game (well, worst after "flying blade").
The argument is about the reliability of a cc and bringing turn evil into the discussion literally proves my point. Just because ability A and ability B are both undodgeable and unblockable it doesn't mean that their practical application is the same. Turn evil is not good because it costs a third of ur Stam and requires u to be on top of ur opponent which makes it unreliable even tho it can't be blocked and dodged. Same with Streak, it can't be blocked or dodged but it's practical application as an offensive cc is very different compared to fossilize or old rune cage because you have to wait the animation to end and turn around before following up with ur burst.
Ita common sense really. There was an outrage with old rune cage. Undodgeable unblockable and dealt damage. Same with Streak with the added benefit that u don't have to sacrifice an ability to run it since it was already on ur bar. So logic says that that there should be an even bigger outrage with sorcs and their guaranteed burst with no counters with butcher Streak threads popping left right and center. And yet there isn't. Well that is because its practical application is not even close to old rune cage since the ability has restrictions built in the ability itself when u look at it from a cc perspective.
Yes, and also because sorcs received ton of indirect nerfs (clench, soul assault, pirate skeleton and so on) and now sorc though still powerful but not most powerful class anymore. If ZOS instead of buffing underperforming abilities will just nerf jabs to the ground, next patch there will be new favorite "nerf item" and it might be Streak. So in our all interest is to convince ZOS to stop nerfing and instead provide viable means to counter play powerful combos.
We definitely don't need more defense or protections, we need more multi-function abilities (like Streak) which will left some space on bars to slot more damaging abilities.
I don’t think jabs is an issue. I’m noticing more sorcs all the time not Templars.
I swear half the people in BGs these days are sorcs. If you look at the leaderboard I think half those names are sorcs too.
Here is a table with comparison of stam spammables (which you probably already saw), I tried to make it as objective as possible. It's pretty clear that other classes then templar must have access to sustained dps of jabs. It may be more effective dots, better class spammables, access to damage buffs whatever... as for now jabs with 1.0 cast time channel, deal 1.7 times more damage then Warden's dizzy with 0.8 cast time (with minor berserk and 2 animal abilities slotted).. no amount of la weaving difference/class passives/roll-dodges/sidesteps will compensate for that.
Since you are so intent on being objective, how about you actually play a Stamplar and see whether or not those dps numbers you are trying to pawn off as truth are reflective in what actually happens in game? There is an animation bug in the game that still retains the old cast-time an global cooldown, which your chart blissfully ignores. Go ahead and show us how easy is is to get that 1 second cast time you deem is so important that it puts poor stamina wardens to shame.
Let's increase dizzy cast time to 1 second and damage in 70% to compensate for less light attacks per second on jabs? /s
PVE stamplars are using jabs instead of wreckling blow, this is all proof you need about what it more effective even if we won't account snare, minor protection and major savagery all of which are useless in dummy parsing. Animation bug may happen to any cast time ability.. hell, that bug may happen to any ability, even to light attacks which sometimes turn to double medium attacks with screen freezed for 1 GCD.
And again - all the problem with toppling charge/jab spammers appeared after direct nerfs to DK, NB and in some extent to sorc. Previously you'll be melting in claw, noxious and stinging slashes while DK will dodge your jabs after applying dots. NB will deliver 20k+ burst in 1-2 GCD from cloak without damned cast time incap with silence instead of stun... pre-U23 Sorc will go with standard combo but stunning you from distance without necessity to streak through you to deliver burst.
So you may say that it was good that 1st, 2nd and 3rd best specs (magsorc, stamNB, stamDK) were nerfed to let other specs shine for a time. But jabs/toppling/sweep spam is not a shine. It is just dumb easy to use, hard to counter powerful combo. Warden may deliver very deadly bursts but they need to precisely time shalks, cast time DBoS and also predict what enemy will do. To spam jabs, toppling and sweep not much prediction is needed.
The bug does not just happen with any ability, it is related to anything that had a cast time that ZOS supposedly lower to 1 second. The problem is that while they adjusted the cast time, they did not adjust the animation, so it doesn't sync.
See here:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/478528/templars-channels-and-the-elsweyr-changes#latest
Before you go and nerf the skill, how about ZoS actually fixes it first? Oh, Magplars are still using Elemental Weapon so you might want to adjust your chart.
In your own linked thread, there is actual test from combat metrics (not perception, but measurement) with counter argument by @ecru... but ok, i did test myself, since I have magplar and played one quite a lot - 120 hits in 30 seconds, i.e. exactly 30 jabs in 30 seconds:
There is no bug. Of course if game lags experience may vary. But it will vary for all abilities in the game. In peak hours bar swap often have 1 second delay if happen at all and ultimate may play animation of going out but didn't trigger...
I logged on hoping to all hopes that ZOS actually fixed this. But they didn't.
So where's the light attack weave? I too can quickly press my #2 key to cut short the longer than 1 second animation in a instanced environment with no lag, but that doesn't change the fact that the animation time does not match the cast-time of the skill. If you bothered to read the thread, I did say it was possible to override the game's animation and execute the next attack in a second with a weave, but this requires precise timing and a decent latency where such is possible. No other class spammable or instant cast requires a player to ignore what they are seeing on screen and instead cut short the animation in order to execute the skill as intended by the developers.
The fact that one should have to do this, regardless of the class they play, is absolute crap and would unacceptable even in Kickstarter game, to say nothing of a AAA title that supposedly has millions of players.
You and ecru both believe that it's perfectly fine that players have to go through these shenanigans and deal with incongruous animations, which says everything that needs to be said regarding your "objectivity." One of the starting points for having an objective conversation is to have it as a given that a class or playstyle will actually have skills function according to their tooltips in any setting before you go around swinging the nerf bat. The day ZOS fixes the animation and no PvE Magplar DPS has to spend hours or crowns getting Elemental Weapon, I will come onto the forums and consent to a damage nerf. But I'm kind of funny that way; I prefer animations and cast-times to sync up and function at least as reasonable as other skill when I'm playing the lovely 300+ Ping I get in Cyrodiil.
This "bug" happens to any ability in the game, even to light attacks themselves. Not only jabs are vulnerable to lag, majority of abilities are. Of course you can't weave 30 light attacks with 30 1-second length channels. But 2x difference in damage with instant cast abilities more then compensates for this. PVE magplars use elemental weapon because empowered light attacks on VMA staff do more damage then spammable but for stamina that is not so critical. And of course in PVP there are no VMA staves and empower from solar barrage. Of course light attacks are still important in PVP, but speaking of jabs... i noticed that those templars who lazily jab you waiting for something are really not that damaging. But those who jab-jab-jab non stop without light attacks - this ones have much higher pressure. So ironically yes, in PVP you don't want to weave light attacks on jabs other then for enchantment proc. Mash that button and you'll be surprised with damage output.
Btw, another table with executes comparison:
Executioner starts over performing jabs only at 15%!
Practice is truth - in practice most dangerous templars are not dancing with you. They just throw potl - toppling - jab-jab-jab-> toppling -> sweep/onslaught -> jab-jab-jab.
@Joy_Division has a valid point and I 100% agree. As a Stamplar main since console launch, I have seen how degraded the animations of Jabs/Sweeps have become over time, and your table suggests 100% connection of Jabs to target - which is not normalized. In perfect conditions - I.E. No lag, low latency and flawless user rotation - Jabs will still not likely connect all four Jabs. Your numbers also do not take into account damage mitigation, such as Evasion which is a key fundamental when comparing to other Stamina executes (which Jabs isn't even considered, by the way).
Yes, bugs happen to all abilities in the game. However, there are none that consistently bug out as often as Jabs. I was just in Cyrodiil last night on my Stamplar in a fight with another player where I used Jabs channel 3 times - no damage numbers showing up, no health bar movement. Target was in range and in target window. Explain that. Latency may have had something to do with it. However, I generally average 40-60 ms latency with 0% packet loss - it's all sever side returning information between both me and other player ineffectively + Jabs channel AND targeting system being buggy.
**Edit - You're also assuming that Jabs is hitting at tool tip damage of 4,100 per Jab - this is highly unlikely in a No-CP setting, unless you're building for full glass-cannon damage sets (which seems to be based on the low Stam pool you quoted). I have easily seen 9K Executioners in recaps - which is approx. 18K + without battle spirit...So I would like to know more in depth how you came to these numbers, as it seems you just went off of tool-tips fully buffed and put in a spreadsheet - not actual combat metrics in-game.Edited by Jabbs_Giggity on December 20, 2019 3:01PM1 -
Kelces✭✭✭✭✭From the perspective of my sorcerer-tank, this would be bad, since in PvE it is crucial for dealing with trash/adds. Not a good idea, except maybe if the unblockable part was removed, I could live with it.You reveal yourself best in how you play.
Kelces - Argonian Templar
Farel Donvu - Dark Elf Sorcerer
Navam Llervu - Dark Elf Dragonknight
Aniseth - Wood Elf Warden
Therediel - Wood Elf Templar
Nilonwy - Wood Elf Nightblade
Jurupari - Argonian Warden
Kú-Chulainn - Argonian Sorcerer
PC - EU
For the Pact!0 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭^ That jabs damage is with 1 BL proc. Without it jabs damage will be only 12k. And BL proc is not mitigated by major evasion and also not everybody has access to it. If there was major evasion pot, it will be interesting option.
From another thread:MartiniDaniels wrote: »1 -
Jabbs_Giggity✭✭✭✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »^ That jabs damage is with 1 BL proc. Without it jabs damage will be only 12k. And BL proc is not mitigated by major evasion and also not everybody has access to it. If there was major evasion pot, it will be interesting option.
From another thread:MartiniDaniels wrote: »
You should probably reference the Light Attack damage follow-up on D-Swing, as the channel time allows for this within 1 GCD, if you are going to reference a BL proc - which is a 25% chance (not guarantee) and only applies if the Jab hits the target.
Wanna know what Burning Light actually hits for on average? With mitigation and Battle Spirit it hits for an average 1200 damage. Yes, there are instances that a BL could hit for 3K+, against a squishy player without defenses up.
Whenever a Templar is using Jabs/Sweeps they are pretty much playing Russian Roulette.0 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Wolverton808b14_ESO wrote: »Streak is strong...kind of like a lot of abilities on great players. Does it need a nerf? Ehhh, honestly in my opinion, no. We should really be asking for buffs in others areas to bring each other up to par in mobility. The community seems to keep asking for nerfs and we complain about tankiness and overpowered healing right? Let's start talkin buffs!
Negative, this skill needs a nerf because it has 0 counter play, you don't want to promote 0 counter play cc's it already has it's buff of reduce fatigue allowing for more streaks but it needs to be blockable at least.
What is the counter play to Fossilize? Asking for a friend. Also, there is counter play. Once a sorc streaks, you CC break and now you have squishy light armor ranged class in melee range. Lock em down and nuke em. I have been killed by a lot of stuff in this game, but never have I thought that streak was what got me. At best, it's a good kiting tool that is annoying to those that chase.
Fossilize doesn't have gap closer/escape tool attached.
Apples and oranges. With the same dumb logic u could say that Streak has counter play because it doesn't root. Lol.3 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »^ That jabs damage is with 1 BL proc. Without it jabs damage will be only 12k. And BL proc is not mitigated by major evasion and also not everybody has access to it. If there was major evasion pot, it will be interesting option.
From another thread:MartiniDaniels wrote: »
You should probably reference the Light Attack damage follow-up on D-Swing, as the channel time allows for this within 1 GCD, if you are going to reference a BL proc - which is a 25% chance (not guarantee) and only applies if the Jab hits the target.
Wanna know what Burning Light actually hits for on average? With mitigation and Battle Spirit it hits for an average 1200 damage. Yes, there are instances that a BL could hit for 3K+, against a squishy player without defenses up.
Whenever a Templar is using Jabs/Sweeps they are pretty much playing Russian Roulette.
But it is Russian Roulette not for templar, but for his opponent. I remember recap with onslaught, 3x jabs (not 3 times 4x, just 3x), potl explosion ~7k and 2 final BL procs one after another, each 3k everything procd and almost everything crit, that templar was puzzled himself how this happened. My health bar just went from full to none in one moment.
As for the light attacks.. ok, I just tested on that stamplar from screenshot, just 3 scenarios (only buff is weapon power pot), 3-4 attempts to minimize crit rate difference:
- dizzy with light attacks - 8-8.5k dps
- jabs without light attacks, just mashing one button - 12k dps
- jabs with light attacks - 10k
So yes, you are right about bug... but dizzy-weaving is susceptible to lag too, especially on PTS and of course in laggy Cyro.
Funny as it sounds, in PVP yit is suboptimal to weave light attacks on jabs.. I guess it's better to drop poison and just run enchantment and weave light attacks once each 3 jabs.. and i noticed that most dangerous templars jab relentlessly... potl, toppling&light attack -jab-jab-jab. Heal, roll-dodge, re-buff, potl-toppling-la-jab-jab-jab.
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pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭This is why they forums are garbage, anyone comparing a melee single target cc to a huge range instant aoe cc that can stun a whole group in one GCD on top of providing mobility and damage needs to stop right there.
All it needs is to be blockable, that is it. Anyone supporting the current streak after it got buffs to reduce it's fatigue as well is delusional.
You are comparing 2 skills with a different practical application just for the sake of making a point. People are not delusional. You are just biased.2 -
Jabbs_Giggity✭✭✭✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »^ That jabs damage is with 1 BL proc. Without it jabs damage will be only 12k. And BL proc is not mitigated by major evasion and also not everybody has access to it. If there was major evasion pot, it will be interesting option.
From another thread:MartiniDaniels wrote: »
You should probably reference the Light Attack damage follow-up on D-Swing, as the channel time allows for this within 1 GCD, if you are going to reference a BL proc - which is a 25% chance (not guarantee) and only applies if the Jab hits the target.
Wanna know what Burning Light actually hits for on average? With mitigation and Battle Spirit it hits for an average 1200 damage. Yes, there are instances that a BL could hit for 3K+, against a squishy player without defenses up.
Whenever a Templar is using Jabs/Sweeps they are pretty much playing Russian Roulette.
But it is Russian Roulette not for templar, but for his opponent. I remember recap with onslaught, 3x jabs (not 3 times 4x, just 3x), potl explosion ~7k and 2 final BL procs one after another, each 3k everything procd and almost everything crit, that templar was puzzled himself how this happened. My health bar just went from full to none in one moment.
As for the light attacks.. ok, I just tested on that stamplar from screenshot, just 3 scenarios (only buff is weapon power pot), 3-4 attempts to minimize crit rate difference:
- dizzy with light attacks - 8-8.5k dps
- jabs without light attacks, just mashing one button - 12k dps
- jabs with light attacks - 10k
So yes, you are right about bug... but dizzy-weaving is susceptible to lag too, especially on PTS and of course in laggy Cyro.
Funny as it sounds, in PVP yit is suboptimal to weave light attacks on jabs.. I guess it's better to drop poison and just run enchantment and weave light attacks once each 3 jabs.. and i noticed that most dangerous templars jab relentlessly... potl, toppling&light attack -jab-jab-jab. Heal, roll-dodge, re-buff, potl-toppling-la-jab-jab-jab.
I stopped LA weaving with Jabs a while ago because it seemed that the LA would bug out and animate to full heavy channel instead of LA, but only damage as a LA - this would also delay the next channel of Jabs after using a LA. It's a terrible bug that should be addressed.
Curiosity, did you test on a stationary target? Try testing with a friend in a duel where he/she isn't just acting as a test dummy. Jabs will always be a Russian Roulette game, no matter the circumstances because BL is a proc chance and Jabs may or may not connect.
Call me crazy, and yes this is mostly due to lag and latency with the current state of Cyrodiil PVP...but I have been noticing my HA's doing upwards 5K damage, where my Jabs are consistently doing 900-1500 non-crit damage.
Tool-Tip on Jabs with only Rally is 4.9K. However, I notice that Jabs is usually hitting 1-2 of 4 on average.0 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »^ That jabs damage is with 1 BL proc. Without it jabs damage will be only 12k. And BL proc is not mitigated by major evasion and also not everybody has access to it. If there was major evasion pot, it will be interesting option.
From another thread:MartiniDaniels wrote: »
You should probably reference the Light Attack damage follow-up on D-Swing, as the channel time allows for this within 1 GCD, if you are going to reference a BL proc - which is a 25% chance (not guarantee) and only applies if the Jab hits the target.
Wanna know what Burning Light actually hits for on average? With mitigation and Battle Spirit it hits for an average 1200 damage. Yes, there are instances that a BL could hit for 3K+, against a squishy player without defenses up.
Whenever a Templar is using Jabs/Sweeps they are pretty much playing Russian Roulette.
But it is Russian Roulette not for templar, but for his opponent. I remember recap with onslaught, 3x jabs (not 3 times 4x, just 3x), potl explosion ~7k and 2 final BL procs one after another, each 3k everything procd and almost everything crit, that templar was puzzled himself how this happened. My health bar just went from full to none in one moment.
As for the light attacks.. ok, I just tested on that stamplar from screenshot, just 3 scenarios (only buff is weapon power pot), 3-4 attempts to minimize crit rate difference:
- dizzy with light attacks - 8-8.5k dps
- jabs without light attacks, just mashing one button - 12k dps
- jabs with light attacks - 10k
So yes, you are right about bug... but dizzy-weaving is susceptible to lag too, especially on PTS and of course in laggy Cyro.
Funny as it sounds, in PVP yit is suboptimal to weave light attacks on jabs.. I guess it's better to drop poison and just run enchantment and weave light attacks once each 3 jabs.. and i noticed that most dangerous templars jab relentlessly... potl, toppling&light attack -jab-jab-jab. Heal, roll-dodge, re-buff, potl-toppling-la-jab-jab-jab.
I stopped LA weaving with Jabs a while ago because it seemed that the LA would bug out and animate to full heavy channel instead of LA, but only damage as a LA - this would also delay the next channel of Jabs after using a LA. It's a terrible bug that should be addressed.
Curiosity, did you test on a stationary target? Try testing with a friend in a duel where he/she isn't just acting as a test dummy. Jabs will always be a Russian Roulette game, no matter the circumstances because BL is a proc chance and Jabs may or may not connect.
Call me crazy, and yes this is mostly due to lag and latency with the current state of Cyrodiil PVP...but I have been noticing my HA's doing upwards 5K damage, where my Jabs are consistently doing 900-1500 non-crit damage.
Tool-Tip on Jabs with only Rally is 4.9K. However, I notice that Jabs is usually hitting 1-2 of 4 on average.
But in case of dizzy if opponent moved out or dodged whole ability will be cancelled or dodged. All projectiles are dodged like 50% of the time.. cone abilitites are just a lol... I usually use noxious after fossilize in the beginning, to ensure it will connect so fact that only 50% of jabs hit... it might be both good or bad dependent of situation. 1 -
Xvorg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Wolverton808b14_ESO wrote: »Streak is strong...kind of like a lot of abilities on great players. Does it need a nerf? Ehhh, honestly in my opinion, no. We should really be asking for buffs in others areas to bring each other up to par in mobility. The community seems to keep asking for nerfs and we complain about tankiness and overpowered healing right? Let's start talkin buffs!
Negative, this skill needs a nerf because it has 0 counter play, you don't want to promote 0 counter play cc's it already has it's buff of reduce fatigue allowing for more streaks but it needs to be blockable at least.
What is the counter play to Fossilize? Asking for a friend. Also, there is counter play. Once a sorc streaks, you CC break and now you have squishy light armor ranged class in melee range. Lock em down and nuke em. I have been killed by a lot of stuff in this game, but never have I thought that streak was what got me. At best, it's a good kiting tool that is annoying to those that chase.
Fossilize doesn't have gap closer/escape tool attached.
@MartiniDaniels
They are both unblockable stuns with about the same effective range (admittedly streak is a bit longer). Sure you can turn and run with streak, but it's not like that is being used offensively at that point. Also, there is no easier kill in this game than a sorc on their heels trying to get out of town with streak. It's clunky, doesnt travel all that far, only works on level terrain, and totally taps you of resources. Second I see a sorc try to streak away, I know I won the fight.
Yeah, but one of them is more expensive, has limited range, only affects single targets and does little dmg on it's own.
Anyway, I don't think it is a good idea to nerf streak... in turn I would make Foss a 15 mts skill again, so there's some counterplay. Currently there is no way you could stop the sorc from streaking at you as a DK, and what could have countered it was already changed (stonefist)
Then we can talk about stopping foss and streak with skillSarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly
I was born with the wrong sign
In the wrong house
With the wrong ascendancy
I took the wrong road
That led to the wrong tendencies
I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
On the wrong day of the wrong week
Used the wrong method with the wrong technique0 -
Xvorg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Wolverton808b14_ESO wrote: »Streak is strong...kind of like a lot of abilities on great players. Does it need a nerf? Ehhh, honestly in my opinion, no. We should really be asking for buffs in others areas to bring each other up to par in mobility. The community seems to keep asking for nerfs and we complain about tankiness and overpowered healing right? Let's start talkin buffs!
Negative, this skill needs a nerf because it has 0 counter play, you don't want to promote 0 counter play cc's it already has it's buff of reduce fatigue allowing for more streaks but it needs to be blockable at least.
What is the counter play to Fossilize? Asking for a friend. Also, there is counter play. Once a sorc streaks, you CC break and now you have squishy light armor ranged class in melee range. Lock em down and nuke em. I have been killed by a lot of stuff in this game, but never have I thought that streak was what got me. At best, it's a good kiting tool that is annoying to those that chase.
Fossilize doesn't have gap closer/escape tool attached.
Apples and oranges. With the same dumb logic u could say that Streak has counter play because it doesn't root. Lol.
Not really.
In my DK with a sorc at 15 mts, how do stop his/her streak?
If I could see the sorc coming half the way, it could be an easy trick just to show him/her foss, but that's not the case. The sorc is gonna win 10/10 in that situation.
I don't dislike streak being unblockable since it helps a lot while fighting ball groups, but any skill must have a counter. Since reach lost its CC, the only skill that can counter streak is the lackluster clenck, or the more than dissapointing magnum shot.
Foss was turned into a melee stun because it was dubbed as "too stronk" when it was a 15 mts unblockable stun, and that was carried mostly by sorc. Now having streak as a 15 mts stun seems to be OK for the very same sorcs.
So I propose you this, how about turning Foss a 15 mts stun again? Or, if you don't want the extra effect of foss, how about making Shatt Rocks a 15 mts stun while Foss keeps it's 7 mts?
Sarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly
I was born with the wrong sign
In the wrong house
With the wrong ascendancy
I took the wrong road
That led to the wrong tendencies
I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
On the wrong day of the wrong week
Used the wrong method with the wrong technique1 -
Ragnarock41✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭It's unfair to compare Fossilize and Streak: Fossilize is melee and ST, Streak is ranged and AoE
Sorcs in general dislike having fair comparissions.
For reference fossilize also does not save your ass out of an unwinnable fight but streak does, and It also guarantees your enemy will not be able to outrun you no matter what.
ıts fundementally wrong to give such a mobile class also good attrition/crowd control tool. make it blockable again, Its dumb and unreasonable.Edited by Ragnarock41 on December 20, 2019 5:44PM1 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Wolverton808b14_ESO wrote: »Streak is strong...kind of like a lot of abilities on great players. Does it need a nerf? Ehhh, honestly in my opinion, no. We should really be asking for buffs in others areas to bring each other up to par in mobility. The community seems to keep asking for nerfs and we complain about tankiness and overpowered healing right? Let's start talkin buffs!
Negative, this skill needs a nerf because it has 0 counter play, you don't want to promote 0 counter play cc's it already has it's buff of reduce fatigue allowing for more streaks but it needs to be blockable at least.
What is the counter play to Fossilize? Asking for a friend. Also, there is counter play. Once a sorc streaks, you CC break and now you have squishy light armor ranged class in melee range. Lock em down and nuke em. I have been killed by a lot of stuff in this game, but never have I thought that streak was what got me. At best, it's a good kiting tool that is annoying to those that chase.
Fossilize doesn't have gap closer/escape tool attached.
Apples and oranges. With the same dumb logic u could say that Streak has counter play because it doesn't root. Lol.
Not really.
In my DK with a sorc at 15 mts, how do stop his/her streak?
If I could see the sorc coming half the way, it could be an easy trick just to show him/her foss, but that's not the case. The sorc is gonna win 10/10 in that situation.
I don't dislike streak being unblockable since it helps a lot while fighting ball groups, but any skill must have a counter. Since reach lost its CC, the only skill that can counter streak is the lackluster clenck, or the more than dissapointing magnum shot.
Foss was turned into a melee stun because it was dubbed as "too stronk" when it was a 15 mts unblockable stun, and that was carried mostly by sorc. Now having streak as a 15 mts stun seems to be OK for the very same sorcs.
So I propose you this, how about turning Foss a 15 mts stun again? Or, if you don't want the extra effect of foss, how about making Shatt Rocks a 15 mts stun while Foss keeps it's 7 mts?
You stop it by cc breaking. The sorc needs to wait for the animation to end and turn around before following up. Best case scenario if you are really slow they may get to hit you once by the time u are up again. Thats why im saying, apples and oranges. The practical application of streak as a stun is not the same as fossilize or old rune cage or fear. The ability has restrictions built in the ability itself.
So no its not that sorcs hate ur DK and want all the goodies for themselves Its just that you dont even know how the ability works in practice.3 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Martini has shown his true colors. He got provided explanations about how Streak doesn't enable a true combo if he stays close. But in the end, he simply expects to not be CC'ed on cooldown, which is a laughable request. And of course, there's the attack on "OP sorcs". It really boils down to that, doesn't it? Sorcs are evil incarnate, right?
@Lord-Otto
I like how he also believes that everyone that defends or discusses a sorc skill without calling for a nerf is automatically a sorc. Some of us actually play (or have played) all the classes. Most broken stun ever was old sorc rune cage. Most powerful stun in the game currently is probably fossilize. Sure the range is not all that great, but if a good DK gets you with one, you are in real trouble.2 -
Lord-Otto✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Martini has shown his true colors. He got provided explanations about how Streak doesn't enable a true combo if he stays close. But in the end, he simply expects to not be CC'ed on cooldown, which is a laughable request. And of course, there's the attack on "OP sorcs". It really boils down to that, doesn't it? Sorcs are evil incarnate, right?
@Lord-Otto
I like how he also believes that everyone that defends or discusses a sorc skill without calling for a nerf is automatically a sorc. Some of us actually play (or have played) all the classes. Most broken stun ever was old sorc rune cage. Most powerful stun in the game currently is probably fossilize. Sure the range is not all that great, but if a good DK gets you with one, you are in real trouble.
Agreed.
You know, CwC was the last time sorc actually felt whole. The ranged class should have a ranged stun. The difference to SS Cage was the lack of damage on Cage. People told me it wasn't OP back in those days. Had we just gotten back to that from Summerset... But no, it had to be obliterated.
We adapted with Master Reach, which was blockable and took us two set pieces for the staff. Still nerfed.
Using Streak now. A close-range stun. Or close to mid. With stacking cost and the 180 hindrance. Apparently, OP. I told non-sorcs way back, when Curse was made unblockable, they got the better deal. Because in that very patch, Streak was made blockable. But people wanted Curse nerfed. Now here we are and they want Streak nerfed.
And what's next? Probably Vamp Drain. Then they want Curse made blockable. Fury lose its duration. And on and on it goes. They will never stop demanding nerfs. All under the banner of "counterplay". But with Fear, Fossilize and Turn Undead, all of a sudden it's also other things about Streak. It just won't end ever. And we're getting farther and farther away from good-feeling classes and are just worsening the already narcotic, boring combat system. And this is meant for all classes. My magblade is just... my god, it's boring!3 -
karekiz✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Remove the stun from imps while were at it ok?
That way when I random into sorcs they can't stun my targets.1 -
Lord-Otto✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Right. I forgot the scamp. No counterplay, right? xD Then again, to be honest, removing the stun would make tanks in PvE happy. Actually not a bad idea...0 -
PhoenixGrey✭✭✭✭✭
✭Ragnarock41 wrote: »It's unfair to compare Fossilize and Streak: Fossilize is melee and ST, Streak is ranged and AoE
Sorcs in general dislike having fair comparissions.
For reference fossilize also does not save your ass out of an unwinnable fight but streak does, and It also guarantees your enemy will not be able to outrun you no matter what.
ıts fundementally wrong to give such a mobile class also good attrition/crowd control tool. make it blockable again, Its dumb and unreasonable.
Being a sorc main myself, a streaking sorc only means that sorc gives me an open invitation to face tank all my burst after that sorc is done with the gimmick streak combo.
Using streak as your main cc will make you give up your range advantage and it's a pretty average cc for outnumbered PVP due to the stacking cost. Which cc in the game has a stacking cost ? Atleast i can't think of any. Vamp drain is a infinitesimally a better option.Edited by PhoenixGrey on December 21, 2019 6:37AM0 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Ragnarock41 wrote: »It's unfair to compare Fossilize and Streak: Fossilize is melee and ST, Streak is ranged and AoE
Sorcs in general dislike having fair comparissions.
For reference fossilize also does not save your ass out of an unwinnable fight but streak does, and It also guarantees your enemy will not be able to outrun you no matter what.
ıts fundementally wrong to give such a mobile class also good attrition/crowd control tool. make it blockable again, Its dumb and unreasonable.
Except it's not fair. It's only fair for ur anti sorc crusade. Cause when u actually look at reality and how the two stuns work in practice, ud have to be really biased to compare them in that way and call it a fair comparison.4 -
Ryanoxx✭✭✭Remove the stun from streak and give back the stun to crystal fragment... be my guest I really wouldn't mind. MagDk
MagSorc
MagBlade
StamSorc
StamBlade
PC EU
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfCJgxeGLB1iyPGoXXthLKQ?view_as=subscriber1 -
technohic✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Remove the stun from streak and give back the stun to crystal fragment... be my guest I really wouldn't mind.
I would like that both ways; playing as and against a sorc. Would free up to be able to use BOL by reduce what's needed on the bar to do that. Just would have to figure out what the streak morph could offer as an option though. Its pretty much the stun why people take the morph. Stun on frags was never the issue when they hit that in the first placeEdited by technohic on December 21, 2019 3:38PM0 -
Ryanoxx✭✭✭Remove the stun from streak and give back the stun to crystal fragment... be my guest I really wouldn't mind.
I would like that both ways; playing as and against a sorc. Would free up to be able to use BOL by reduce what's needed on the bar to do that. Just would have to figure out what the streak morph could offer as an option though. Its pretty much the stun why people take the morph. Stun on frags was never the issue when they hit that in the first place
Thats my plan... I would love to run ball of lightning, I think it is wonderful since it got changed and streak sucks as stun for a range class since you have to streak through the enemy which requires you to go into meele range which again... I do not like as a ranged class.
And frag stun was more fun anyways.
#givefragsomeloveMagDk
MagSorc
MagBlade
StamSorc
StamBlade
PC EU
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfCJgxeGLB1iyPGoXXthLKQ?view_as=subscriber0 -
Ragnarock41✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Ragnarock41 wrote: »It's unfair to compare Fossilize and Streak: Fossilize is melee and ST, Streak is ranged and AoE
Sorcs in general dislike having fair comparissions.
For reference fossilize also does not save your ass out of an unwinnable fight but streak does, and It also guarantees your enemy will not be able to outrun you no matter what.
ıts fundementally wrong to give such a mobile class also good attrition/crowd control tool. make it blockable again, Its dumb and unreasonable.
Except it's not fair. It's only fair for ur anti sorc crusade. Cause when u actually look at reality and how the two stuns work in practice, ud have to be really biased to compare them in that way and call it a fair comparison.
Yeah yeah just like how CC breaking is ''counterplay'' but it totally wasn't when fossilize had high range.1 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Ragnarock41 wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »It's unfair to compare Fossilize and Streak: Fossilize is melee and ST, Streak is ranged and AoE
Sorcs in general dislike having fair comparissions.
For reference fossilize also does not save your ass out of an unwinnable fight but streak does, and It also guarantees your enemy will not be able to outrun you no matter what.
ıts fundementally wrong to give such a mobile class also good attrition/crowd control tool. make it blockable again, Its dumb and unreasonable.
Except it's not fair. It's only fair for ur anti sorc crusade. Cause when u actually look at reality and how the two stuns work in practice, ud have to be really biased to compare them in that way and call it a fair comparison.
Yeah yeah just like how CC breaking is ''counterplay'' but it totally wasn't when fossilize had high range.
Again, apples and oranges. One of them does actually allow you to cc break and counter the follow up, the other one doesn't. First learn how the abilities actually work in practice and then u can compare them. This is literally what people keep repeating over and over again. Put it through ur head.1 -
Ragnarock41✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Ragnarock41 wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »It's unfair to compare Fossilize and Streak: Fossilize is melee and ST, Streak is ranged and AoE
Sorcs in general dislike having fair comparissions.
For reference fossilize also does not save your ass out of an unwinnable fight but streak does, and It also guarantees your enemy will not be able to outrun you no matter what.
ıts fundementally wrong to give such a mobile class also good attrition/crowd control tool. make it blockable again, Its dumb and unreasonable.
Except it's not fair. It's only fair for ur anti sorc crusade. Cause when u actually look at reality and how the two stuns work in practice, ud have to be really biased to compare them in that way and call it a fair comparison.
Yeah yeah just like how CC breaking is ''counterplay'' but it totally wasn't when fossilize had high range.
Again, apples and oranges. One of them does actually allow you to cc break and counter the follow up, the other one doesn't. First learn how the abilities actually work in practice and then u can compare them. This is literally what people keep repeating over and over again. Put it through ur head.
I break free out of fossilize just fine.2 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Ragnarock41 wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »It's unfair to compare Fossilize and Streak: Fossilize is melee and ST, Streak is ranged and AoE
Sorcs in general dislike having fair comparissions.
For reference fossilize also does not save your ass out of an unwinnable fight but streak does, and It also guarantees your enemy will not be able to outrun you no matter what.
ıts fundementally wrong to give such a mobile class also good attrition/crowd control tool. make it blockable again, Its dumb and unreasonable.
Except it's not fair. It's only fair for ur anti sorc crusade. Cause when u actually look at reality and how the two stuns work in practice, ud have to be really biased to compare them in that way and call it a fair comparison.
Yeah yeah just like how CC breaking is ''counterplay'' but it totally wasn't when fossilize had high range.
Again, apples and oranges. One of them does actually allow you to cc break and counter the follow up, the other one doesn't. First learn how the abilities actually work in practice and then u can compare them. This is literally what people keep repeating over and over again. Put it through ur head.
It's first time I heard somebody complaining about breaking free from fossilize, at least at this patch. Also on my build I use it on cooldown and it is very rare when some solo players can't break free/roll-dodge even after several fossilizes and I don't have such problems as well. Fossilize is great in terms of it's reliability and capability to break rotations/combos, yes, but it's not glitchy like fear or knockback.1
This discussion has been closed.