Templars, Channels, and the Elsweyr Changes

Joy_Division

TL;DR: The animation for Templar Channeled skills are longer than their one second cast time duration. If you do not interrupt these (i.e. weaving another ability or weapon swapping), the game will play the full animation and lock you out from your next cast for about a half a second.

Or at least that's my theory. Something is going on that if you don't interrupt these channels, there is a lot of "dead" time in which your character isn't doing anything, meaning you'll fire off fewer skills than you would with normal instant-cast abilities.

I do not know if this is the case with other cast-times like Snipe or Uppercut. I suspect something similar is happening, but I have not used those skills very much the past 5 years so I am not sure if and how they may be acting differently since the Elsweyr expansion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edVHqxhb9eM&t=6s

Changes made by ZOS according to Patch Notes:

ZOS wrote:

Removed the 200ms post global cooldown from cast time abilities. This was done to improve the feeling of using these abilities in rapid succession with other abilities, to allow for a more fluid transition, and less down time between usage. We also made some adjustments to the cast times and power levels of specific abilities, which will be called out on a per case basis in further notes.

ZOS wrote:

Puncturing Strikes: Reduced the channel time for this ability and its morphs from to 1 seconds from 1.1 seconds.

ZOS wrote:

Solar Flare:

• Reduced the cast time from this ability and the Dark Flare morph to 1 second from 1.1 seconds.
• Reduced the damage by approximately 37% to make up for the fact that it can be cast more frequently.

Some relevant points here.

ZOS reduced the damage of Dark Flare and other cast times to take into account that the skill would actually complete is one second and there would be no 200ms post global cooldown (or anything else) preventing the immediate casting of the next ability. This does not happen as intended unless a player precisely is able to interrupt the channeled skill. So if you fail to this and avoid that "dead" time, you're just eating a huge damage nerf without any corresponding benefit.

ESO's combat mechanics are not consistent. If you fail to interrupt an instant-cast ability, you're not locked into a prolonged animation that prevent your character from executing it's next ability. Moreover the timing of a light attack or skill weave is much more forgiving as it can be done at anytime after about 0.5 seconds an ability is cast. In short, instant-casts are easier to weave and you aren't punished with "dead" time and subsequent DPS loss for imprecise timing.

A Templar player in theory could practice to get down the correct timing (although the discordance between the animation and cast time is going to make that difficult), but competitive game-play in which other players and Boss mechanics are disruptive is too demanding for this to realistically and consistently happen. This does not even get into the issue of latency/lag that comes with Cyrodiil PvP, connections from Australia, high volume combat in certain Trials, etc.

All of this makes playing a Templar or using Channeled skills require way too much focus and meticulousness than should be the case, to say nothing of in comparison with the other classes/skills.

Hopefully ZOS will figure out what's going on and make playing with channels be just as fluid as instant-cast skills.

Altyrann

Given the cancellation priority, could this be why the effect seems worse when weaving than just spamming sweeps? The new sweeps cast can cancel the animation of the old while light attacking is lower on the priority. this could explain similar things seen with snipe where spamming it gives roughly 1s / cast while weaving pushes it to 1.3s or so.

Minno

Now you all know why I went swords this patch lol Cant be bothered to add more time to my attacks by trying to get 2k light attack staff DMG added in between spells lol.

StarOfElyon

Is that why I get stuck in Radiant Oppression's animation for a second after the target is already dead?

ecru

My very first test of Sweep had me at 48 channels in one minute, your usage of it isn't representative of what the ability is actually capable of. I honestly don't think it's any more difficult to weave at this point than an instant ability after the recent change to channels/cast time skills.

My initial test, literally the first parse on my magplar that I rarely play:



And after a bit of practice:




It's important to keep in mind that if jabs/sweep were instant abilities instead of a 1s channel they would be 30-40% stronger than just about every instant spammable in the game. Some comparisons on a stamplar build:

Rapid Strikes: 14,287
Wrecking Blow: 13,695
Dawnbreaker: 17,115
Biting Jabs: 19,428

It's a really really good ability, and I know templars aren't going to be happy when I say this, but it's bordering on overpowered at this point if you can actually use it properly.

What other abilities can we compare Jabs/sweep to in terms of damage? Necro's blastbones, Warden's shalks. Yes, it does that much damage. Yes, when you get hit by shalks or blastbones, a templar could be doing the same amount of damage every 1.1s. Templars don't seem to realize how good this ability has become and if I were maining a templar, I'd probably keep quiet about my 1s channel that hits like blastbones/shalks/dawnbreaker.

Dunning_Kruger

^
It’s good. You can also cast inside of jabs now if you know have been doing it a while

Dunning_Kruger

Also minno wouldn’t just using a lightning Staff and applying ele drain still Do more dps than 2 swords. Major breach; 8% bonus to sweeps; versus 5% of swords. Also the ability to light attack for mag.

Kaliki

Isn't this the same issue I posted about in 2015, only made worse because the cast time has been further reduced, but not the animation time?
Here's my post from back then: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/208583/cast-or-rather-animation-time-madness

Back then, I found the animation on dark flare played for about 1.7 seconds, while wrecking blow had a much shorter animation, therefore making it much easier to weave and cast in quick succession.

usmcjdking

ecru wrote: »

My very first test of Sweep had me at 48 channels in one minute, your usage of it isn't representative of what the ability is actually capable of. I honestly don't think it's any more difficult to weave at this point than an instant ability after the recent change to channels/cast time skills.

My initial test, literally the first parse on my magplar that I rarely play:



And after a bit of practice:




It's important to keep in mind that if jabs/sweep were instant abilities instead of a 1s channel they would be 30-40% stronger than just about every instant spammable in the game. Some comparisons on a stamplar build:

Rapid Strikes: 14,287
Wrecking Blow: 13,695
Dawnbreaker: 17,115
Biting Jabs: 19,428

It's a really really good ability, and I know templars aren't going to be happy when I say this, but it's bordering on overpowered at this point if you can actually use it properly.

What other abilities can we compare Jabs/sweep to in terms of damage? Necro's blastbones, Warden's shalks. Yes, it does that much damage. Yes, when you get hit by shalks or blastbones, a templar could be doing the same amount of damage every 1.1s. Templars don't seem to realize how good this ability has become and if I were maining a templar, I'd probably keep quiet about my 1s channel that hits like blastbones/shalks/dawnbreaker.

Joy isn't arguing capability.

Joy is arguing consistency. The case is that cast times are simply inconsistent versus instant casts. It's entirely undebatable as evidenced by the video.

ecru

usmcjdking wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

My very first test of Sweep had me at 48 channels in one minute, your usage of it isn't representative of what the ability is actually capable of. I honestly don't think it's any more difficult to weave at this point than an instant ability after the recent change to channels/cast time skills.

My initial test, literally the first parse on my magplar that I rarely play:



And after a bit of practice:




It's important to keep in mind that if jabs/sweep were instant abilities instead of a 1s channel they would be 30-40% stronger than just about every instant spammable in the game. Some comparisons on a stamplar build:

Rapid Strikes: 14,287
Wrecking Blow: 13,695
Dawnbreaker: 17,115
Biting Jabs: 19,428

It's a really really good ability, and I know templars aren't going to be happy when I say this, but it's bordering on overpowered at this point if you can actually use it properly.

What other abilities can we compare Jabs/sweep to in terms of damage? Necro's blastbones, Warden's shalks. Yes, it does that much damage. Yes, when you get hit by shalks or blastbones, a templar could be doing the same amount of damage every 1.1s. Templars don't seem to realize how good this ability has become and if I were maining a templar, I'd probably keep quiet about my 1s channel that hits like blastbones/shalks/dawnbreaker.

Joy isn't arguing capability.

Joy is arguing consistency. The case is that cast times are simply inconsistent versus instant casts. It's entirely undebatable as evidenced by the video.

Well I agree there are issues with cast time abilities, but it's not just limited to templar skills. Flurry is by far the worst when it comes to consistency, if there's even a little bit of lag in Cyrodiil the servers will only register 2-3 out of the 5 hits. I'm guessing this is due to the amount of attacks in such a small window, but only ZOS knows exactly what's "wrong" with their combat system/engine when too many people do too many things in the same area. I'd be interested to know if jabs/sweep has the same issue of only a few hits registering when there's a lot of lag.

I think if they addressed the ability lag in Cyrodiil, most of these issues would go away, but I dunno if that's even a possibility at this point because you'd think that if they could, they would have done it already.

Kaliki

ecru wrote: »

I think if they addressed the ability lag in Cyrodiil, most of these issues would go away, but I dunno if that's even a possibility at this point because you'd think that if they could, they would have done it already.

As I see it, the main point of this thread is not consistency as in the ability hitting consistently (due to lag) but the cast time and animation being consistent.

[removed no longer relevant info]

Joy_Division

@ecru

You don;t get the point.

The animation of a skill should not be 50% longer than the actual skill's duration. It makes it unnecessarily difficult to play.

Reverb

Consistency against a dummy is one thing, but in group gameplay when there are other events for the system to calculate, Sweeps is extremely inconsistent. More so than I see with other skills and classes. In my experience since the patch Sweeps bugs out at least 30% of the time when weaving, causing inappropriate damage and animation prioritization. And my personal favorite, when light attack weaving semi-cancels the Sweep animation and looks like I’m waving a spear around like a sword, neither finishing th Sweeps damage nor initiating a staff LA, but costing 2 seconds of skill usage.

ecru

Joy_Division wrote: »

@ecru

You don;t get the point.

The animation of a skill should not be 50% longer than the actual skill's duration. It makes it unnecessarily difficult to play.

This is a lot of skills though. I get what you mean though because Flurry seems to be the same with it's wonky animation. Maybe the animation of jabs/sweep could just be shortened? I thought they already did that though. I think I'm just so used to weaving in 1s intervals that I didn't really have too many issues with jabs/sweep in the first place and I kind of ignore the animation and stick to my own timing.

What I'd like to see addressed is the ability's attacks actually all hitting when they're supposed to. Someone on the pvp forum suggested that Jabs/Sweep has the same problem Flurry has in Cyrodiil when there's a little bit of lag, which is all of the hits not actually being registered by the server. This seems to be a problem exclusive to channeled skills with multiple attacks and I wonder if other channels like Soul Assault also have this issue. It's one thing to have an animation that's misleading, but a much bigger problem is attacks from that ability just flat out not doing anything at all because of a bug/lag.

Reverb wrote: »

Consistency against a dummy is one thing, but in group gameplay when there are other events for the system to calculate, Sweeps is extremely inconsistent. More so than I see with other skills and classes. In my experience since the patch Sweeps bugs out at least 30% of the time when weaving, causing inappropriate damage and animation prioritization. And my personal favorite, when light attack weaving semi-cancels the Sweep animation and looks like I’m waving a spear around like a sword, neither finishing th Sweeps damage nor initiating a staff LA, but costing 2 seconds of skill usage.

See above what I posted about Flurry seemingly having this same issue. It just kind of whiffs and you only get a few attacks or the ability starts it's animation and then stops. I suspect it's worse because it's 5 attacks in .6 seconds rather than 4 attacks in 1 second but probably caused by the same issue. I think it's due to lag which effects channels more than instant abilities. I have been doing BGs on my magplar lately and using sweep and while I don't have issues with it there, lag isn't an issue in BGs like it is in Cyrdoiil, and I generally don't have issues with Flurry in BGs either.

I dunno if I'm brave enough to go to Cyrodiil on my magplar just yet but when the lag is bad enough, just standing in front of a stationary NPC and using Flurry will only register 2-3 out of the 5 hits. Does jabs/sweep have this same issue during primetime (or when there's lag in general)? I'll probably do some testing later on because I'm really curious if it's the same issue.

Neoauspex

ecru wrote: »

.

I dunno if I'm brave enough to go to Cyrodiil on my magplar just yet but when the lag is bad enough, just standing in front of a stationary NPC and using Flurry will only register 2-3 out of the 5 hits. Does jabs/sweep have this same issue during primetime (or when there's lag in general)? I'll probably do some testing later on because I'm really curious if it's the same issue.

Yes. Especially around NPC resource guards for some reason.

Minno

Dunning_Kruger wrote: »

Also minno wouldn’t just using a lightning Staff and applying ele drain still Do more dps than 2 swords. Major breach; 8% bonus to sweeps; versus 5% of swords. Also the ability to light attack for mag.

I use frost staff backbar. Lets me have best of both worlds; so it comes down to if I want ranged front bar light attacks or additional stam regen from the 2h heavy attack. But I switch it up all the time for either testing or just for fun.

InvictusApollo

This looks like a bug. You should report it.

dodgehopper_ESO

ecru wrote: »

My very first test of Sweep had me at 48 channels in one minute, your usage of it isn't representative of what the ability is actually capable of. I honestly don't think it's any more difficult to weave at this point than an instant ability after the recent change to channels/cast time skills.

My initial test, literally the first parse on my magplar that I rarely play:



And after a bit of practice:




It's important to keep in mind that if jabs/sweep were instant abilities instead of a 1s channel they would be 30-40% stronger than just about every instant spammable in the game. Some comparisons on a stamplar build:

Rapid Strikes: 14,287
Wrecking Blow: 13,695
Dawnbreaker: 17,115
Biting Jabs: 19,428

It's a really really good ability, and I know templars aren't going to be happy when I say this, but it's bordering on overpowered at this point if you can actually use it properly.

What other abilities can we compare Jabs/sweep to in terms of damage? Necro's blastbones, Warden's shalks. Yes, it does that much damage. Yes, when you get hit by shalks or blastbones, a templar could be doing the same amount of damage every 1.1s. Templars don't seem to realize how good this ability has become and if I were maining a templar, I'd probably keep quiet about my 1s channel that hits like blastbones/shalks/dawnbreaker.

Good job hitting a dummy. Now go fight someone who can fight back.

Edit: By the way I didn't mean this as any insult. The point I was making is that the placement of attacks are easier on those other skills and are less often evaded. The 19,428 damage you do against a dummy very rarely turns up in a fight with a person who has a brain. You might achieve those bursts when you cc them but generally speaking you don't when they are on cc immunity. That was my only point in stating what I did. I would have edited this when I posted it but the little gear icon wouldn't show up on the forum.

Delparis

Another issue with puncturing strikes and their morphs.

Is there any raison to slot this skill anymore ?

ecru

Delparis wrote: »

Another issue with puncturing strikes and their morphs.

Is there any raison to slot this skill anymore ?

Yes. One channel of jabs does more damage than the higher damage morph of Dawnbreaker. It's the highest damage spammable ability in the game by a substantial (like 40%) margin.

You have a spammable ability which does, in one second, equal damage to basically all stam dots/bleeds (which happens over 10 seconds), more damage than dawnbreaker, more damage (40% more) than Snipe, more damage than warden shalks, more damage than blastbones.. uh.. do I need to go on? You can use this ability every second and get the same damage out of it that a necro or a warden can only get, at most, every 3 seconds. Think that over for a minute.

This is with the same gear:
Biting Jabs: 18,864 damage
Subterranean assault: 15,941 damage
Blighted Blastbones: 17,282 damage
Dawnbreaker of Smiting: 18,580 damage
Relentless Focus: 20,742 (only 10% more damage, only usable every 5th gcd)

I'm even a bit confused on how it made it to the live servers in it's current state. When it was only usable every 1.3s, I guess that was fine, but now that it's 30% faster it's hard to find any other ability in the game that it's comparable to.

edited to include another ability lol

Minno

ecru wrote: »

Delparis wrote: »

Another issue with puncturing strikes and their morphs.

Is there any raison to slot this skill anymore ?

Yes. One channel of jabs does more damage than the higher damage morph of Dawnbreaker. It's the highest damage spammable ability in the game by a substantial (like 40%) margin.

You have a spammable ability which does, in one second, equal damage to basically all stam dots/bleeds (which happens over 10 seconds), more damage than dawnbreaker, more damage (40% more) than Snipe, more damage than warden shalks, more damage than blastbones.. uh.. do I need to go on? You can use this ability every second and get the same damage out of it that a necro or a warden can only get, at most, every 3 seconds. Think that over for a minute.

This is with the same gear:
Biting Jabs: 18,864 damage
Subterranean assault: 15,941 damage
Blighted Blastbones: 17,282 damage
Dawnbreaker of Smiting: 18,580 damage
Relentless Focus: 20,742 (only 10% more damage, only usable every 5th gcd)doe

I'm even a bit confused on how it made it to the live servers in it's current state. When it was only usable every 1.3s, I guess that was fine, but now that it's 30% faster it's hard to find any other ability in the game that it's comparable to.

edited to include another ability lol

Lol spread out in four attack while you can't defend with all those other options letting you have anything to dodge roll/bar swap to a defense. DBoS does A LOT more DMG than sweeps you conviently left out the dot, and paired it up against a weird mix of single target/aoe/burst.

ecru

Minno wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

Delparis wrote: »

Another issue with puncturing strikes and their morphs.

Is there any raison to slot this skill anymore ?

Yes. One channel of jabs does more damage than the higher damage morph of Dawnbreaker. It's the highest damage spammable ability in the game by a substantial (like 40%) margin.

You have a spammable ability which does, in one second, equal damage to basically all stam dots/bleeds (which happens over 10 seconds), more damage than dawnbreaker, more damage (40% more) than Snipe, more damage than warden shalks, more damage than blastbones.. uh.. do I need to go on? You can use this ability every second and get the same damage out of it that a necro or a warden can only get, at most, every 3 seconds. Think that over for a minute.

This is with the same gear:
Biting Jabs: 18,864 damage
Subterranean assault: 15,941 damage
Blighted Blastbones: 17,282 damage
Dawnbreaker of Smiting: 18,580 damage
Relentless Focus: 20,742 (only 10% more damage, only usable every 5th gcd)doe

I'm even a bit confused on how it made it to the live servers in it's current state. When it was only usable every 1.3s, I guess that was fine, but now that it's 30% faster it's hard to find any other ability in the game that it's comparable to.

edited to include another ability lol

Lol spread out in four attack while you can't defend with all those other options letting you have anything to dodge roll/bar swap to a defense. DBoS does A LOT more DMG than sweeps you conviently left out the dot, and paired it up against a weird mix of single target/aoe/burst.

Yes, I'm comparing the direct damage portion of dawnbreaker, which still required 150 ult to use. The point is that there isn't any ability in the game that is in any way comparable, channeled or otherwise, that does the same amount of damage as jabs. I'm comparing it to those abilities because they're only usable every 3-5 seconds, whereas jabs is spammable. Nothing else does similar damage, so there are no "instant" abilities to even compare them to.

If you want me to compare it to abilities that are usable every 1 second, the numbers are going to be a lot smaller and the disparity a lot higher. Snipe with the same gear has a 12.5k tooltip. Wrecking blow is the same. So a 1s channel of jabs does 50% more damage than a 1s cast of Wrecking Blow or Snipe.

My earlier post was meant to answer the question of "should I just unslot jab/sweep?" The answer is yes. Please unslot it. lol..

edit: The closest ability would actually be Flurry I guess, since it's also a channel. Tooltip on Flurry is 12,152 or slightly higher due to the slight increase of Rapid Strikes (probably almost exactly 12.5k like Wrecking Blow/Snipe). So yeah, it does 50% more damage than Flurry too.

CatchMeTrolling

If jabs are so strong you should question why there isn’t that many stamplars in pvp. Let’s not go tooltip flaunting because those numbers don’t back the reality of actual pvp. Especially considering the fact jabs can get double mitigated, you can miss, anyone with mobility can strafe to avoid them or that you can get stuck in a clunky animation.

Stamplars can be strong but there’s a higher ceiling to play at a high level.

ecru

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

If jabs are so strong you should question why there isn’t that many stamplars in pvp. Let’s not go tooltip flaunting because those numbers don’t back the reality of actual pvp. Especially considering the fact jabs can get double mitigated, you can miss, anyone with mobility can strafe to avoid them or that you can get stuck in a clunky animation.

Stamplars can be strong but there’s a higher ceiling to play at a high level.

Because it was only recently changed to be that strong. It already did a ton of damage, but it was a lot slower before Elsweyr. Now that it's 30% faster to cast, the huge tooltip is a lot more "noticeable".

edit: I also think stamplars are rare in general among the playerbase as a whole because most people roll a Templar to heal.

Minno

ecru wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

Delparis wrote: »

Another issue with puncturing strikes and their morphs.

Is there any raison to slot this skill anymore ?

Yes. One channel of jabs does more damage than the higher damage morph of Dawnbreaker. It's the highest damage spammable ability in the game by a substantial (like 40%) margin.

You have a spammable ability which does, in one second, equal damage to basically all stam dots/bleeds (which happens over 10 seconds), more damage than dawnbreaker, more damage (40% more) than Snipe, more damage than warden shalks, more damage than blastbones.. uh.. do I need to go on? You can use this ability every second and get the same damage out of it that a necro or a warden can only get, at most, every 3 seconds. Think that over for a minute.

This is with the same gear:
Biting Jabs: 18,864 damage
Subterranean assault: 15,941 damage
Blighted Blastbones: 17,282 damage
Dawnbreaker of Smiting: 18,580 damage
Relentless Focus: 20,742 (only 10% more damage, only usable every 5th gcd)doe

I'm even a bit confused on how it made it to the live servers in it's current state. When it was only usable every 1.3s, I guess that was fine, but now that it's 30% faster it's hard to find any other ability in the game that it's comparable to.

edited to include another ability lol

Lol spread out in four attack while you can't defend with all those other options letting you have anything to dodge roll/bar swap to a defense. DBoS does A LOT more DMG than sweeps you conviently left out the dot, and paired it up against a weird mix of single target/aoe/burst.

Yes, I'm comparing the direct damage portion of dawnbreaker, which still required 150 ult to use. The point is that there isn't any ability in the game that is in any way comparable, channeled or otherwise, that does the same amount of damage as jabs. I'm comparing it to those abilities because they're only usable every 3-5 seconds, whereas jabs is spammable. Nothing else does similar damage, so there are no "instant" abilities to even compare them to.

If you want me to compare it to abilities that are usable every 1 second, the numbers are going to be a lot smaller and the disparity a lot higher. Snipe with the same gear has a 12.5k tooltip. Wrecking blow is the same. So a 1s channel of jabs does 50% more damage than a 1s cast of Wrecking Blow or Snipe.

My earlier post was meant to answer the question of "should I just unslot jab/sweep?" The answer is yes. Please unslot it. lol..

edit: The closest ability would actually be Flurry I guess, since it's also a channel. Tooltip on Flurry is 12,152 or slightly higher due to the slight increase of Rapid Strikes (probably almost exactly 12.5k like Wrecking Blow/Snipe). So yeah, it does 50% more damage than Flurry too.

You can't compare a locked channel that requires you to hit 4 times to things like 3s burst you can hold until the right moment lol.

ecru

Minno wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

Delparis wrote: »

Another issue with puncturing strikes and their morphs.

Is there any raison to slot this skill anymore ?

Yes. One channel of jabs does more damage than the higher damage morph of Dawnbreaker. It's the highest damage spammable ability in the game by a substantial (like 40%) margin.

You have a spammable ability which does, in one second, equal damage to basically all stam dots/bleeds (which happens over 10 seconds), more damage than dawnbreaker, more damage (40% more) than Snipe, more damage than warden shalks, more damage than blastbones.. uh.. do I need to go on? You can use this ability every second and get the same damage out of it that a necro or a warden can only get, at most, every 3 seconds. Think that over for a minute.

This is with the same gear:
Biting Jabs: 18,864 damage
Subterranean assault: 15,941 damage
Blighted Blastbones: 17,282 damage
Dawnbreaker of Smiting: 18,580 damage
Relentless Focus: 20,742 (only 10% more damage, only usable every 5th gcd)doe

I'm even a bit confused on how it made it to the live servers in it's current state. When it was only usable every 1.3s, I guess that was fine, but now that it's 30% faster it's hard to find any other ability in the game that it's comparable to.

edited to include another ability lol

Lol spread out in four attack while you can't defend with all those other options letting you have anything to dodge roll/bar swap to a defense. DBoS does A LOT more DMG than sweeps you conviently left out the dot, and paired it up against a weird mix of single target/aoe/burst.

Yes, I'm comparing the direct damage portion of dawnbreaker, which still required 150 ult to use. The point is that there isn't any ability in the game that is in any way comparable, channeled or otherwise, that does the same amount of damage as jabs. I'm comparing it to those abilities because they're only usable every 3-5 seconds, whereas jabs is spammable. Nothing else does similar damage, so there are no "instant" abilities to even compare them to.

If you want me to compare it to abilities that are usable every 1 second, the numbers are going to be a lot smaller and the disparity a lot higher. Snipe with the same gear has a 12.5k tooltip. Wrecking blow is the same. So a 1s channel of jabs does 50% more damage than a 1s cast of Wrecking Blow or Snipe.

My earlier post was meant to answer the question of "should I just unslot jab/sweep?" The answer is yes. Please unslot it. lol..

edit: The closest ability would actually be Flurry I guess, since it's also a channel. Tooltip on Flurry is 12,152 or slightly higher due to the slight increase of Rapid Strikes (probably almost exactly 12.5k like Wrecking Blow/Snipe). So yeah, it does 50% more damage than Flurry too.

You can't compare a locked channel that requires you to hit 4 times to things like 3s burst you can hold until the right moment lol.

I mean, even landing three of those hits is still almost 20% more damage than Flurry. I've been playing my magplar in BGs lately and it's not hard to land or weave at all IMO, but I'm used to playing melee and using Flurry.

The comparison to shalks/blastbones/dawnbreaker is because they're typically seen as higher damage abilities. It's used to show how the damage of jabs is a bit of an outlier. The comparison to Flurry, Snipe, and Wrecking Blow reinforce that with Jabs being roughly 50% stronger.

edit: 2k more than incap too, or ~10% stronger. wew.

Minno

ecru wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

Delparis wrote: »

Another issue with puncturing strikes and their morphs.

Is there any raison to slot this skill anymore ?

Yes. One channel of jabs does more damage than the higher damage morph of Dawnbreaker. It's the highest damage spammable ability in the game by a substantial (like 40%) margin.

You have a spammable ability which does, in one second, equal damage to basically all stam dots/bleeds (which happens over 10 seconds), more damage than dawnbreaker, more damage (40% more) than Snipe, more damage than warden shalks, more damage than blastbones.. uh.. do I need to go on? You can use this ability every second and get the same damage out of it that a necro or a warden can only get, at most, every 3 seconds. Think that over for a minute.

This is with the same gear:
Biting Jabs: 18,864 damage
Subterranean assault: 15,941 damage
Blighted Blastbones: 17,282 damage
Dawnbreaker of Smiting: 18,580 damage
Relentless Focus: 20,742 (only 10% more damage, only usable every 5th gcd)doe

I'm even a bit confused on how it made it to the live servers in it's current state. When it was only usable every 1.3s, I guess that was fine, but now that it's 30% faster it's hard to find any other ability in the game that it's comparable to.

edited to include another ability lol

Lol spread out in four attack while you can't defend with all those other options letting you have anything to dodge roll/bar swap to a defense. DBoS does A LOT more DMG than sweeps you conviently left out the dot, and paired it up against a weird mix of single target/aoe/burst.

Yes, I'm comparing the direct damage portion of dawnbreaker, which still required 150 ult to use. The point is that there isn't any ability in the game that is in any way comparable, channeled or otherwise, that does the same amount of damage as jabs. I'm comparing it to those abilities because they're only usable every 3-5 seconds, whereas jabs is spammable. Nothing else does similar damage, so there are no "instant" abilities to even compare them to.

If you want me to compare it to abilities that are usable every 1 second, the numbers are going to be a lot smaller and the disparity a lot higher. Snipe with the same gear has a 12.5k tooltip. Wrecking blow is the same. So a 1s channel of jabs does 50% more damage than a 1s cast of Wrecking Blow or Snipe.

My earlier post was meant to answer the question of "should I just unslot jab/sweep?" The answer is yes. Please unslot it. lol..

edit: The closest ability would actually be Flurry I guess, since it's also a channel. Tooltip on Flurry is 12,152 or slightly higher due to the slight increase of Rapid Strikes (probably almost exactly 12.5k like Wrecking Blow/Snipe). So yeah, it does 50% more damage than Flurry too.

You can't compare a locked channel that requires you to hit 4 times to things like 3s burst you can hold until the right moment lol.

I mean, even landing three of those hits is still almost 20% more damage than Flurry. I've been playing my magplar in BGs lately and it's not hard to land or weave at all IMO, but I'm used to playing melee and using Flurry.

The comparison to shalks/blastbones/dawnbreaker is because they're typically seen as higher damage abilities. It's used to show how the damage of jabs is a bit of an outlier. The comparison to Flurry, Snipe, and Wrecking Blow reinforce that with Jabs being roughly 50% stronger.

So forgetting other benefits:
- Wrecking CC's and has ability to proc enchants/poisons
- snipe has defile in addition to cause poison which has additional DMG outside the tooltip. Can also deal more DMG as you are far away and hit targets with light attacks.
- flurry is ass I agree lol. But even that has access to procing enchants/poisons in addition to extra DMG when stunned/silenced/etc along with extra DMG on low health.
- jabs has 4 hits, last hit snare, burning light every 2 hits, minor protection on cast (crit if jabs).

You aren't looking at the entire picture, just Lazer focused on jabs. First saying it's in a decent spot then saying it's overloaded. You also forget that jabs is reduced by major evaison, wrecking blow/snipe/flurry are not. So your 18k tooltip example, now deals 14k against that flurry user running blade cloak lol.

Noobslayer3255

ecru wrote: »

Delparis wrote: »

Another issue with puncturing strikes and their morphs.

Is there any raison to slot this skill anymore ?

Yes. One channel of jabs does more damage than the higher damage morph of Dawnbreaker. It's the highest damage spammable ability in the game by a substantial (like 40%) margin.

You have a spammable ability which does, in one second, equal damage to basically all stam dots/bleeds (which happens over 10 seconds), more damage than dawnbreaker, more damage (40% more) than Snipe, more damage than warden shalks, more damage than blastbones.. uh.. do I need to go on? You can use this ability every second and get the same damage out of it that a necro or a warden can only get, at most, every 3 seconds. Think that over for a minute.

This is with the same gear:
Biting Jabs: 18,864 damage
Subterranean assault: 15,941 damage
Blighted Blastbones: 17,282 damage
Dawnbreaker of Smiting: 18,580 damage
Relentless Focus: 20,742 (only 10% more damage, only usable every 5th gcd)

I'm even a bit confused on how it made it to the live servers in it's current state. When it was only usable every 1.3s, I guess that was fine, but now that it's 30% faster it's hard to find any other ability in the game that it's comparable to.

edited to include another ability lol

I'm not sure if you've just never played a templar, or never played the game at all.

ecru

Minno wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

Delparis wrote: »

Another issue with puncturing strikes and their morphs.

Is there any raison to slot this skill anymore ?

Yes. One channel of jabs does more damage than the higher damage morph of Dawnbreaker. It's the highest damage spammable ability in the game by a substantial (like 40%) margin.

You have a spammable ability which does, in one second, equal damage to basically all stam dots/bleeds (which happens over 10 seconds), more damage than dawnbreaker, more damage (40% more) than Snipe, more damage than warden shalks, more damage than blastbones.. uh.. do I need to go on? You can use this ability every second and get the same damage out of it that a necro or a warden can only get, at most, every 3 seconds. Think that over for a minute.

This is with the same gear:
Biting Jabs: 18,864 damage
Subterranean assault: 15,941 damage
Blighted Blastbones: 17,282 damage
Dawnbreaker of Smiting: 18,580 damage
Relentless Focus: 20,742 (only 10% more damage, only usable every 5th gcd)doe

I'm even a bit confused on how it made it to the live servers in it's current state. When it was only usable every 1.3s, I guess that was fine, but now that it's 30% faster it's hard to find any other ability in the game that it's comparable to.

edited to include another ability lol

Lol spread out in four attack while you can't defend with all those other options letting you have anything to dodge roll/bar swap to a defense. DBoS does A LOT more DMG than sweeps you conviently left out the dot, and paired it up against a weird mix of single target/aoe/burst.

Yes, I'm comparing the direct damage portion of dawnbreaker, which still required 150 ult to use. The point is that there isn't any ability in the game that is in any way comparable, channeled or otherwise, that does the same amount of damage as jabs. I'm comparing it to those abilities because they're only usable every 3-5 seconds, whereas jabs is spammable. Nothing else does similar damage, so there are no "instant" abilities to even compare them to.

If you want me to compare it to abilities that are usable every 1 second, the numbers are going to be a lot smaller and the disparity a lot higher. Snipe with the same gear has a 12.5k tooltip. Wrecking blow is the same. So a 1s channel of jabs does 50% more damage than a 1s cast of Wrecking Blow or Snipe.

My earlier post was meant to answer the question of "should I just unslot jab/sweep?" The answer is yes. Please unslot it. lol..

edit: The closest ability would actually be Flurry I guess, since it's also a channel. Tooltip on Flurry is 12,152 or slightly higher due to the slight increase of Rapid Strikes (probably almost exactly 12.5k like Wrecking Blow/Snipe). So yeah, it does 50% more damage than Flurry too.

You can't compare a locked channel that requires you to hit 4 times to things like 3s burst you can hold until the right moment lol.

I mean, even landing three of those hits is still almost 20% more damage than Flurry. I've been playing my magplar in BGs lately and it's not hard to land or weave at all IMO, but I'm used to playing melee and using Flurry.

The comparison to shalks/blastbones/dawnbreaker is because they're typically seen as higher damage abilities. It's used to show how the damage of jabs is a bit of an outlier. The comparison to Flurry, Snipe, and Wrecking Blow reinforce that with Jabs being roughly 50% stronger.

So forgetting other benefits:
- Wrecking CC's and has ability to proc enchants/poisons
- snipe has defile in addition to cause poison which has additional DMG outside the tooltip. Can also deal more DMG as you are far away and hit targets with light attacks.
- flurry is ass I agree lol. But even that has access to procing enchants/poisons in addition to extra DMG when stunned/silenced/etc along with extra DMG on low health.
- jabs has 4 hits, last hit snare, burning light every 2 hits, minor protection on cast (crit if jabs).

You aren't looking at the entire picture, just Lazer focused on jabs. First saying it's in a decent spot then saying it's overloaded. You also forget that jabs is reduced by major evaison, wrecking blow/snipe/flurry are not. So your 18k tooltip example, now deals 14k against that flurry user running blade cloak lol.

I guess if everything that can go wrong goes wrong (lag, missing half of your channel every time, your target blocking and dodge rolling at the same time [somehow], major evasion up 24/7, etc) it's not that great. Most targets won't have major evasion and you really only need one second of uninterrupted damage for each channel. You make it sound like it's some absurdly long channel, but it's just 1000ms. You also get the snare which makes it really, really easy to stay with that target.

But even two uninterrupted channels back to back is like eating three wrecking blows in a few seconds. Everyone knows that's a lot of damage. It has a really high damage ceiling compared to just about anything, and when it reaches that ceiling (as it often does), it's really really good. Then you have burning light procs..

I'm switching my magplar over to stam for a reason.

ecru

Noobslayer3255 wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

Delparis wrote: »

Another issue with puncturing strikes and their morphs.

Is there any raison to slot this skill anymore ?

Yes. One channel of jabs does more damage than the higher damage morph of Dawnbreaker. It's the highest damage spammable ability in the game by a substantial (like 40%) margin.

You have a spammable ability which does, in one second, equal damage to basically all stam dots/bleeds (which happens over 10 seconds), more damage than dawnbreaker, more damage (40% more) than Snipe, more damage than warden shalks, more damage than blastbones.. uh.. do I need to go on? You can use this ability every second and get the same damage out of it that a necro or a warden can only get, at most, every 3 seconds. Think that over for a minute.

This is with the same gear:
Biting Jabs: 18,864 damage
Subterranean assault: 15,941 damage
Blighted Blastbones: 17,282 damage
Dawnbreaker of Smiting: 18,580 damage
Relentless Focus: 20,742 (only 10% more damage, only usable every 5th gcd)

I'm even a bit confused on how it made it to the live servers in it's current state. When it was only usable every 1.3s, I guess that was fine, but now that it's 30% faster it's hard to find any other ability in the game that it's comparable to.

edited to include another ability lol

I'm not sure if you've just never played a templar, or never played the game at all.

yeah maybe start at the top of the thread instead of the bottom

Drdeath20

ecru wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

Delparis wrote: »

Another issue with puncturing strikes and their morphs.

Is there any raison to slot this skill anymore ?

Yes. One channel of jabs does more damage than the higher damage morph of Dawnbreaker. It's the highest damage spammable ability in the game by a substantial (like 40%) margin.

You have a spammable ability which does, in one second, equal damage to basically all stam dots/bleeds (which happens over 10 seconds), more damage than dawnbreaker, more damage (40% more) than Snipe, more damage than warden shalks, more damage than blastbones.. uh.. do I need to go on? You can use this ability every second and get the same damage out of it that a necro or a warden can only get, at most, every 3 seconds. Think that over for a minute.

This is with the same gear:
Biting Jabs: 18,864 damage
Subterranean assault: 15,941 damage
Blighted Blastbones: 17,282 damage
Dawnbreaker of Smiting: 18,580 damage
Relentless Focus: 20,742 (only 10% more damage, only usable every 5th gcd)doe

I'm even a bit confused on how it made it to the live servers in it's current state. When it was only usable every 1.3s, I guess that was fine, but now that it's 30% faster it's hard to find any other ability in the game that it's comparable to.

edited to include another ability lol

Lol spread out in four attack while you can't defend with all those other options letting you have anything to dodge roll/bar swap to a defense. DBoS does A LOT more DMG than sweeps you conviently left out the dot, and paired it up against a weird mix of single target/aoe/burst.

Yes, I'm comparing the direct damage portion of dawnbreaker, which still required 150 ult to use. The point is that there isn't any ability in the game that is in any way comparable, channeled or otherwise, that does the same amount of damage as jabs. I'm comparing it to those abilities because they're only usable every 3-5 seconds, whereas jabs is spammable. Nothing else does similar damage, so there are no "instant" abilities to even compare them to.

If you want me to compare it to abilities that are usable every 1 second, the numbers are going to be a lot smaller and the disparity a lot higher. Snipe with the same gear has a 12.5k tooltip. Wrecking blow is the same. So a 1s channel of jabs does 50% more damage than a 1s cast of Wrecking Blow or Snipe.

My earlier post was meant to answer the question of "should I just unslot jab/sweep?" The answer is yes. Please unslot it. lol..

edit: The closest ability would actually be Flurry I guess, since it's also a channel. Tooltip on Flurry is 12,152 or slightly higher due to the slight increase of Rapid Strikes (probably almost exactly 12.5k like Wrecking Blow/Snipe). So yeah, it does 50% more damage than Flurry too.

You can't compare a locked channel that requires you to hit 4 times to things like 3s burst you can hold until the right moment lol.

I mean, even landing three of those hits is still almost 20% more damage than Flurry. I've been playing my magplar in BGs lately and it's not hard to land or weave at all IMO, but I'm used to playing melee and using Flurry.

The comparison to shalks/blastbones/dawnbreaker is because they're typically seen as higher damage abilities. It's used to show how the damage of jabs is a bit of an outlier. The comparison to Flurry, Snipe, and Wrecking Blow reinforce that with Jabs being roughly 50% stronger.

So forgetting other benefits:
- Wrecking CC's and has ability to proc enchants/poisons
- snipe has defile in addition to cause poison which has additional DMG outside the tooltip. Can also deal more DMG as you are far away and hit targets with light attacks.
- flurry is ass I agree lol. But even that has access to procing enchants/poisons in addition to extra DMG when stunned/silenced/etc along with extra DMG on low health.
- jabs has 4 hits, last hit snare, burning light every 2 hits, minor protection on cast (crit if jabs).

You aren't looking at the entire picture, just Lazer focused on jabs. First saying it's in a decent spot then saying it's overloaded. You also forget that jabs is reduced by major evaison, wrecking blow/snipe/flurry are not. So your 18k tooltip example, now deals 14k against that flurry user running blade cloak lol.

I guess if everything that can go wrong goes wrong (lag, missing half of your channel every time, your target blocking and dodge rolling at the same time [somehow], major evasion up 24/7, etc) it's not that great. Most targets won't have major evasion and you really only need one second of uninterrupted damage for each channel. You make it sound like it's some absurdly long channel, but it's just 1000ms. You also get the snare which makes it really, really easy to stay with that target.

But even two uninterrupted channels back to back is like eating three wrecking blows in a few seconds. Everyone knows that's a lot of damage. It has a really high damage ceiling compared to just about anything, and when it reaches that ceiling (as it often does), it's really really good. Then you have burning light procs..

I'm switching my magplar over to stam for a reason.

Cant wait to see your videos posted of all the decent players you kill and even 1vX against with your magplar. No cheese