Joy_Division wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Sorry, what? Streak stun is unblockable already 2 patches. And Fossilize unlike Streak doesn't provide gap closer/escape tool, have lesser range, larger cost and is not aoe. Fossilize is powerful yes, but i'll trade it for Streak any day. (as stamDK main)

And then ud complain about sorcs guaranteed one shots on people like with old rune cage. Lmao.

What's the difference between timing meteor, curse with streak into frags (+mages fury as an option) vs doing the same with fossilize? Difference is only in terms that using streak requires skill, while fossilize works always if target is not cc-immune.
I'm not saying that streak stun itself is something unbearable, problem is that it grants gap closer/escape tool too. Basically 3 abilities in 1. Of course it's nice to have such abilities, but problem is that DK was nerfed to the point that class doesn't have any such "universal" ability at all. Yes, we have leap, but that is ultimate.
I understand that DK is sort of counter to magsorc (and magblade) with fossilize draining stamina and wings negating burst, but all that doesn't work against other classes so good.

Night and day difference actually. With streak, you have to wait for the animation to end and turn around before following up giving time to ur opponent to cc break. Best case scenario you maybe get 1 hit at ur opponent before cc breaking which is also why the streak combo is only really effective with meteor since meteor is a backloaded ult. With any other ult its kinda iffy to use streak cause you simply wont have enough time to follow up with ur burst.

There is a reason why with old rune cage there was an outrage demanding the skill to be butchered while with streak there isnt much of a hassle outside the usual threads. That is because their practical application isnt even remotely the same.

So again, wanna trade fossilize with streak. Just know that you will be bringing old rune cage meta back and you will be back here asking fossilize to be butchered cause you will literally have zero counterplay to sorc burst and asking for streak to be buffed cause the stun is not reliable offensively. Not saying fossilize as an ability is better than streak. Its not, but in terms of reliable offensive cc, its not even a contest. Fossilize is simply better.

But there is already fossilize alternative available to everyone - turn evil, which is btw harder cc then fossilize, in terms of break free. Yeah, it is rather costly for magicka builds but if it guaranteed successful burst against balanced builds, I'm sure magsorcs would use it. But obviously no magsorc use it, why? Altmer or dunmer could afford it. They don't use it because it requires coming into close melee range first and there is simply no place on magsorc bars both for gap closer and hard-cc. Thus, streak is perfect ability because it's both gap closer and unblockable cc (and kite tool as well). Key point here is that streak requires skill to use and it is not so easy to land against agile opponent.. which sort of balances it out.
But if you are playing not very agile build, streak is like a can-opener against you and it is more deadly on stamsorcs too.

Overall, I'll be ok with streak if ZOS buffed empowering chains. Those are really in pitiful state in comparison to other gap closers and given that it is gap closer of most melee oriented class... it is weird that melee class has worst gap closer in the game (well, worst after "flying blade").

The argument is about the reliability of a cc and bringing turn evil into the discussion literally proves my point. Just because ability A and ability B are both undodgeable and unblockable it doesn't mean that their practical application is the same. Turn evil is not good because it costs a third of ur Stam and requires u to be on top of ur opponent which makes it unreliable even tho it can't be blocked and dodged. Same with Streak, it can't be blocked or dodged but it's practical application as an offensive cc is very different compared to fossilize or old rune cage because you have to wait the animation to end and turn around before following up with ur burst.

Ita common sense really. There was an outrage with old rune cage. Undodgeable unblockable and dealt damage. Same with Streak with the added benefit that u don't have to sacrifice an ability to run it since it was already on ur bar. So logic says that that there should be an even bigger outrage with sorcs and their guaranteed burst with no counters with butcher Streak threads popping left right and center. And yet there isn't. Well that is because its practical application is not even close to old rune cage since the ability has restrictions built in the ability itself when u look at it from a cc perspective.

Yes, and also because sorcs received ton of indirect nerfs (clench, soul assault, pirate skeleton and so on) and now sorc though still powerful but not most powerful class anymore. If ZOS instead of buffing underperforming abilities will just nerf jabs to the ground, next patch there will be new favorite "nerf item" and it might be Streak. So in our all interest is to convince ZOS to stop nerfing and instead provide viable means to counter play powerful combos.
We definitely don't need more defense or protections, we need more multi-function abilities (like Streak) which will left some space on bars to slot more damaging abilities.

I don’t think jabs is an issue. I’m noticing more sorcs all the time not Templars.

I swear half the people in BGs these days are sorcs. If you look at the leaderboard I think half those names are sorcs too.

Here is a table with comparison of stam spammables (which you probably already saw), I tried to make it as objective as possible. It's pretty clear that other classes then templar must have access to sustained dps of jabs. It may be more effective dots, better class spammables, access to damage buffs whatever... as for now jabs with 1.0 cast time channel, deal 1.7 times more damage then Warden's dizzy with 0.8 cast time (with minor berserk and 2 animal abilities slotted).. no amount of la weaving difference/class passives/roll-dodges/sidesteps will compensate for that.

Since you are so intent on being objective, how about you actually play a Stamplar and see whether or not those dps numbers you are trying to pawn off as truth are reflective in what actually happens in game? There is an animation bug in the game that still retains the old cast-time an global cooldown, which your chart blissfully ignores. Go ahead and show us how easy is is to get that 1 second cast time you deem is so important that it puts poor stamina wardens to shame.

Let's increase dizzy cast time to 1 second and damage in 70% to compensate for less light attacks per second on jabs? /s

PVE stamplars are using jabs instead of wreckling blow, this is all proof you need about what it more effective even if we won't account snare, minor protection and major savagery all of which are useless in dummy parsing. Animation bug may happen to any cast time ability.. hell, that bug may happen to any ability, even to light attacks which sometimes turn to double medium attacks with screen freezed for 1 GCD.

And again - all the problem with toppling charge/jab spammers appeared after direct nerfs to DK, NB and in some extent to sorc. Previously you'll be melting in claw, noxious and stinging slashes while DK will dodge your jabs after applying dots. NB will deliver 20k+ burst in 1-2 GCD from cloak without damned cast time incap with silence instead of stun... pre-U23 Sorc will go with standard combo but stunning you from distance without necessity to streak through you to deliver burst.

So you may say that it was good that 1st, 2nd and 3rd best specs (magsorc, stamNB, stamDK) were nerfed to let other specs shine for a time. But jabs/toppling/sweep spam is not a shine. It is just dumb easy to use, hard to counter powerful combo. Warden may deliver very deadly bursts but they need to precisely time shalks, cast time DBoS and also predict what enemy will do. To spam jabs, toppling and sweep not much prediction is needed.

The bug does not just happen with any ability, it is related to anything that had a cast time that ZOS supposedly lower to 1 second. The problem is that while they adjusted the cast time, they did not adjust the animation, so it doesn't sync.

See here:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/478528/templars-channels-and-the-elsweyr-changes#latest

Before you go and nerf the skill, how about ZoS actually fixes it first? Oh, Magplars are still using Elemental Weapon so you might want to adjust your chart.

In your own linked thread, there is actual test from combat metrics (not perception, but measurement) with counter argument by @ecru... but ok, i did test myself, since I have magplar and played one quite a lot - 120 hits in 30 seconds, i.e. exactly 30 jabs in 30 seconds:


There is no bug. Of course if game lags experience may vary. But it will vary for all abilities in the game. In peak hours bar swap often have 1 second delay if happen at all and ultimate may play animation of going out but didn't trigger...

I logged on hoping to all hopes that ZOS actually fixed this. But they didn't.

So where's the light attack weave? I too can quickly press my #2 key to cut short the longer than 1 second animation in a instanced environment with no lag, but that doesn't change the fact that the animation time does not match the cast-time of the skill. If you bothered to read the thread, I did say it was possible to override the game's animation and execute the next attack in a second with a weave, but this requires precise timing and a decent latency where such is possible. No other class spammable or instant cast requires a player to ignore what they are seeing on screen and instead cut short the animation in order to execute the skill as intended by the developers.

The fact that one should have to do this, regardless of the class they play, is absolute crap and would unacceptable even in Kickstarter game, to say nothing of a AAA title that supposedly has millions of players.

You and ecru both believe that it's perfectly fine that players have to go through these shenanigans and deal with incongruous animations, which says everything that needs to be said regarding your "objectivity." One of the starting points for having an objective conversation is to have it as a given that a class or playstyle will actually have skills function according to their tooltips in any setting before you go around swinging the nerf bat. The day ZOS fixes the animation and no PvE Magplar DPS has to spend hours or crowns getting Elemental Weapon, I will come onto the forums and consent to a damage nerf. But I'm kind of funny that way; I prefer animations and cast-times to sync up and function at least as reasonable as other skill when I'm playing the lovely 300+ Ping I get in Cyrodiil.

This "bug" happens to any ability in the game, even to light attacks themselves. Not only jabs are vulnerable to lag, majority of abilities are. Of course you can't weave 30 light attacks with 30 1-second length channels. But 2x difference in damage with instant cast abilities more then compensates for this. PVE magplars use elemental weapon because empowered light attacks on VMA staff do more damage then spammable but for stamina that is not so critical. And of course in PVP there are no VMA staves and empower from solar barrage. Of course light attacks are still important in PVP, but speaking of jabs... i noticed that those templars who lazily jab you waiting for something are really not that damaging. But those who jab-jab-jab non stop without light attacks - this ones have much higher pressure. So ironically yes, in PVP you don't want to weave light attacks on jabs other then for enchantment proc. Mash that button and you'll be surprised with damage output.
Btw, another table with executes comparison:

Executioner starts over performing jabs only at 15%!

Practice is truth - in practice most dangerous templars are not dancing with you. They just throw potl - toppling - jab-jab-jab-> toppling -> sweep/onslaught -> jab-jab-jab.

Lord-Otto wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

JinxxND wrote: »

Wolverton808b14_ESO wrote: »

Streak is strong...kind of like a lot of abilities on great players. Does it need a nerf? Ehhh, honestly in my opinion, no. We should really be asking for buffs in others areas to bring each other up to par in mobility. The community seems to keep asking for nerfs and we complain about tankiness and overpowered healing right? Let's start talkin buffs!

Negative, this skill needs a nerf because it has 0 counter play, you don't want to promote 0 counter play cc's it already has it's buff of reduce fatigue allowing for more streaks but it needs to be blockable at least.

What is the counter play to Fossilize? Asking for a friend. Also, there is counter play. Once a sorc streaks, you CC break and now you have squishy light armor ranged class in melee range. Lock em down and nuke em. I have been killed by a lot of stuff in this game, but never have I thought that streak was what got me. At best, it's a good kiting tool that is annoying to those that chase.

Fossilize doesn't have gap closer/escape tool attached.

No. But a root for double the stamina drain and keeping your enemy in melee range.

RAT/Mist are available to everyone. And stun from fossilize is not glitchy like fear/knockback and is reliably breakable. Against streak only counterplays are cc-immunity pots and unstoppable brute. Both have heavy penalties for use.

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

It's unfair to compare Fossilize and Streak: Fossilize is melee and ST, Streak is ranged and AoE

Sorcs can't be fair about DKs. All magsorcs I know personally, they absolutely hate DKs and consider them most annoying class to fight with. Fossilize, Leap, Wings - this 3 abilities counter magsorc pretty good. Fossilize applies huge stamina drain, Leap knockbacks and give chances to kill sorc before he regain control to streak/shieldstack, wings cut a considerable part of sorc pressure. Playing with or without wings as of late, I may say it is worlds difference. If I have wings slotted, my HP is barely goind below 75% out of meteor burst... without wings sorcs drop me below 50% very fast if I'll stop blocking/roll-dodging/vigor spam.

If DKs are so good against Sorcs, according to you, then why nerf sorcs a bit more?

Beside that, we all can guess what happens if they take the stun of streak. Sorcs would switch to Ball of Lightning and generate more nerf demands here because "there is no counterplay for ranged specs". Next stop: nerf that too. Right? Or will the pitchfork squad go after other unavoidable stuns first?

This whole "but fossilize is no gap closer" is just crooked to begin with. You can't even compare these two skills beside that they both involve an unavoidable stun component. Just like the whole toolkit is different. So using one as an excuse to nerf the other is dishonest, to say the least. Or shall sorcs complain about not having a fine copy of a leaping burst ulti like DK, so better gut them. Sounds irrational? Because it is. Talk about nerf spirals and how every class because a cheap copy of any other.

This right here is just another episode of "nerf what annoys me the most - currently". I swear, it's not the lagfest that eventually will kill this game, it's the insatiable community with it's masochistic desire to pull the rug from under their own feet, wondering why they're suddenly lying on their back.

No need to remove stun, just make it blockable. Key point here is that for other unblockable stuns, i.e. fossilize and fear, you must came to close melee first, which grants option to counterplay them. While streak has 15m+ range.

Lord-Otto wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

JinxxND wrote: »

Wolverton808b14_ESO wrote: »

Streak is strong...kind of like a lot of abilities on great players. Does it need a nerf? Ehhh, honestly in my opinion, no. We should really be asking for buffs in others areas to bring each other up to par in mobility. The community seems to keep asking for nerfs and we complain about tankiness and overpowered healing right? Let's start talkin buffs!

Negative, this skill needs a nerf because it has 0 counter play, you don't want to promote 0 counter play cc's it already has it's buff of reduce fatigue allowing for more streaks but it needs to be blockable at least.

What is the counter play to Fossilize? Asking for a friend. Also, there is counter play. Once a sorc streaks, you CC break and now you have squishy light armor ranged class in melee range. Lock em down and nuke em. I have been killed by a lot of stuff in this game, but never have I thought that streak was what got me. At best, it's a good kiting tool that is annoying to those that chase.

Fossilize doesn't have gap closer/escape tool attached.

No. But a root for double the stamina drain and keeping your enemy in melee range.

RAT/Mist are available to everyone. And stun from fossilize is not glitchy like fear/knockback and is reliably breakable. Against streak only counterplays are cc-immunity pots and unstoppable brute. Both have heavy penalties for use.

Fitting. Streak also has a heavy penalty for use, the stacking cost and the need to turn around. You're conveniently ignoring that. Streak can't be followed up. Fossilize can.

Streak is AOE stun with 3 meters radius. Which means if it is used from 12-15 meters you don't need to turn around.

Edit: just tested it on my stamsorc which I didn't play anymore because of damned alliance lock. It is more then 3 meters.. more like 5. Which means that you have pretty big "window" of distance from which streak will leave you in front of enemy and that's what stamsorcs usually do. Poison injection for master's bow, spam something while building up daggers -> streak -> onslaught/DBoS + daggers proc + executioner spam.

Lord-Otto wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

JinxxND wrote: »

Wolverton808b14_ESO wrote: »

Streak is strong...kind of like a lot of abilities on great players. Does it need a nerf? Ehhh, honestly in my opinion, no. We should really be asking for buffs in others areas to bring each other up to par in mobility. The community seems to keep asking for nerfs and we complain about tankiness and overpowered healing right? Let's start talkin buffs!

Negative, this skill needs a nerf because it has 0 counter play, you don't want to promote 0 counter play cc's it already has it's buff of reduce fatigue allowing for more streaks but it needs to be blockable at least.

What is the counter play to Fossilize? Asking for a friend. Also, there is counter play. Once a sorc streaks, you CC break and now you have squishy light armor ranged class in melee range. Lock em down and nuke em. I have been killed by a lot of stuff in this game, but never have I thought that streak was what got me. At best, it's a good kiting tool that is annoying to those that chase.

Fossilize doesn't have gap closer/escape tool attached.

No. But a root for double the stamina drain and keeping your enemy in melee range.

RAT/Mist are available to everyone. And stun from fossilize is not glitchy like fear/knockback and is reliably breakable. Against streak only counterplays are cc-immunity pots and unstoppable brute. Both have heavy penalties for use.

Fitting. Streak also has a heavy penalty for use, the stacking cost and the need to turn around. You're conveniently ignoring that. Streak can't be followed up. Fossilize can.

Streak is AOE stun with 3 meters radius. Which means if it is used from 12-15 meters you don't need to turn around.

Then counter play by keeping closer than twelve meters?

Regarding your edit...
Bruh. BRUH! Your enemy is doing like five skills before streaking fiften meters forwards and it never occurs to you to use a gapcloser from 22 meters? SERIOUSLY! That's one you. You deserve to die then.

To counter play what? Penalty of streak which puts sorc behind target? you still will be stunned. Yeah, if sorc was stunning exclusively in end location of streak, then keeping at point blank range will be a counterplay.

Edit to your edit.
Gap closer is used if you are going for a burst or to execute. Just spamming it (unless you are templar ofc) is pointless. And what do you mean about 5 skills used? I always use some ability (if not stunned or rolling), but ultimate is up only once at 30 seconds. Maybe I should use some defensive ultimate when I predict that sorc gonna streak at me with his stacks? or when I see meteor incoming

JinxxND wrote: »

This is why they forums are garbage, anyone comparing a melee single target cc to a huge range instant aoe cc that can stun a whole group in one GCD on top of providing mobility and damage needs to stop right there.

All it needs is to be blockable, that is it. Anyone supporting the current streak after it got buffs to reduce it's fatigue as well is delusional.

May not be apples to apples, but both are unblockable stuns. It's not that much of a stretch to compare them.

Let's also be clear. In small group play, solo play the skills actually can be used in a very similar manner, and that is to keep your opponent CC'ed on cooldown. Its not like sorcs are streaking through and wiping zergs all by themselves. Sure they are useful and powerful in zerg v zerg warfare, but who cares. Both sides have them. Outside of a zerg battle, there are much better stuns in this game and just about every class.

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

JinxxND wrote: »

Wolverton808b14_ESO wrote: »

Streak is strong...kind of like a lot of abilities on great players. Does it need a nerf? Ehhh, honestly in my opinion, no. We should really be asking for buffs in others areas to bring each other up to par in mobility. The community seems to keep asking for nerfs and we complain about tankiness and overpowered healing right? Let's start talkin buffs!

Negative, this skill needs a nerf because it has 0 counter play, you don't want to promote 0 counter play cc's it already has it's buff of reduce fatigue allowing for more streaks but it needs to be blockable at least.

What is the counter play to Fossilize? Asking for a friend. Also, there is counter play. Once a sorc streaks, you CC break and now you have squishy light armor ranged class in melee range. Lock em down and nuke em. I have been killed by a lot of stuff in this game, but never have I thought that streak was what got me. At best, it's a good kiting tool that is annoying to those that chase.

Fossilize doesn't have gap closer/escape tool attached.

@MartiniDaniels

They are both unblockable stuns with about the same effective range (admittedly streak is a bit longer). Sure you can turn and run with streak, but it's not like that is being used offensively at that point. Also, there is no easier kill in this game than a sorc on their heels trying to get out of town with streak. It's clunky, doesnt travel all that far, only works on level terrain, and totally taps you of resources. Second I see a sorc try to streak away, I know I won the fight.

1) there is no another ability in the game which teleports you forward without necessity for target. Clunky or not this is completely unique feature unavailable to other classes. Basically only nightblade has comparable tool with shade though shade should be placed first
2) stamsorcs can sprint at 13m per second, while streak has some travel time and consumes GCD.. still stamsorcs use it for disengage which means it is effective disengage tool. More effective then sprint at speed cap
3) it works on any terrain. Each day sorcs in Cyro are streaking to places which are available to other classes only with bunny hopping (semi-exploit) or not available at all
4) magsorcs prefer streak to rune cage and flame reach. Before U23 I remember rain of flame reaches and regular rune cages. Now all magsorcs use streak despite fact that it puts them in completely unnecessary and risky melee range

Anyway, there is best indicator of which abilities are good - just look what is used by people.

Thus, it is very easy to rate gap closers at of U23-U24, in frequency of usage by solo players:
S-tier - streak, toppling charge (used all day by default both by magicka and stamina, 95% of templars and sorcs I met will use this abilities on cc-immunity cooldown)
A-tier - critical rush (used often by those who don't have streak/toppling. Was actively used by stamsorcs d-swingers in U23 to apply glitchy knockback combo.. after dizzy nerf they all use streak)
B-tier - ambush/lotus fan (sometimes NB use it... but rare), shield charge (i saw several people using it, it is slow, predictable and easily countered)
C-tier - empowering chains (I don't remember when I saw magDK using this last time, and never saw it used by stamDK)
D-tier - flying blade (i used this for several hours, barely usable, speed cap sprint is more reliable gap closer then this)

So it's either making streak blockable and removing off-balance from toppling charge, or buffing other 4-5 gap closers. I'm for second options of course. But you know ZOS...

For starters, I see a magsorc using a stamina weapon, S&B. If anything, we should nerf that skill line first, right? xD

He is actually getting very few killing blows after a streak. He's using it to relieve pressure, mostly. The Atronach CC does the combo killing. The few times he gets a combo off of streak, it's because his opponent doesn't break free. Anything can kill you there. And him mangling many enemies without a CC at all shows how weak they really are.

Sorcs don't use a lot of Rune Cage or Reach because they both got gutted into uselesness. And people want to do the same to streak. Many sorcs now use the vamp drain stun, refer to the "vamp drain OP" thread - a stun that has been in the game like this for years. Because that is the reality - sorcs get nerfed after whining, adapt with inferior skills, and then those get nerfed after whining. Rinse and repeat. Because they're sorcs. That is the true reason.

And as for the inaccessible terrain. Look how those training dummies are piling up on a rock, hugging themselves in thirst. They could just leave, Mal would have to get off his rock. But nah, they wanna zerg down that single sorc. And if that fails due to their incompetence, they complain and cry for nerfs when it was their fault all along why they died.