MartiniDaniels wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Sorry, what? Streak stun is unblockable already 2 patches. And Fossilize unlike Streak doesn't provide gap closer/escape tool, have lesser range, larger cost and is not aoe. Fossilize is powerful yes, but i'll trade it for Streak any day. (as stamDK main)

And then ud complain about sorcs guaranteed one shots on people like with old rune cage. Lmao.

What's the difference between timing meteor, curse with streak into frags (+mages fury as an option) vs doing the same with fossilize? Difference is only in terms that using streak requires skill, while fossilize works always if target is not cc-immune.
I'm not saying that streak stun itself is something unbearable, problem is that it grants gap closer/escape tool too. Basically 3 abilities in 1. Of course it's nice to have such abilities, but problem is that DK was nerfed to the point that class doesn't have any such "universal" ability at all. Yes, we have leap, but that is ultimate.
I understand that DK is sort of counter to magsorc (and magblade) with fossilize draining stamina and wings negating burst, but all that doesn't work against other classes so good.

Would you not say that fossilize is also 5 in 1 ability? It grants ulti, stam, minor brutality, stun, and immoblization in 1 button? And since you mentioned leap, it is the strongest abd most verstile ulti in the game.

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

universal_wrath wrote: »

markusloveFTM wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Oh joy ... another nerf Sorc thread.

Joy_Division wrote: »

Skill has worked fine for 6 years and now all of sudden needs to be nerfed. Yeah, ok.

If a Templar main says a Sorc skill is fine then I don’t know what to tell you, OP.

Mains are just what people started with, leveled the most, does all the crafting, probably loves his Sorcerer being OP, probably loves entering battlegrounds and going god-mode.

Sorcerer god mode only exist in low MMR BGs, you rarely see "god mode" sorc in higher mmr BG that words goes for stam wardens. Low MMR BGs don't matter as much, because if you play enough BG you will be promoted to higher MMR BGs where mag sorc is almost utterly useless.

I still dont understand what MMR is, all I know is random BGs, my sorc always gets deathmatches and my warden gets flag games

MMR stand for Match Make Rating, means how much you play in a charcter and how much pointa you collect in th charcter. If you play a lot in 1 charcter, regardless of the game mode, you will nitice a difference in types of player you face. As you start playing, you will most likely start playing against nowbies, as you progeress, you face more skilled players to poin were you have ball group fight and almost nobody dies. A single mistake can wipe the whole team and will be playing against abd with those names to the point you start to know their prefered class and thier weakness and how they play. Most promenint classes in high MMR BG are stam dens, warden and nightblade heal bots, and DK, other classes fall behind and especaily mag sorc, it will have probalby highest kill assists in a match and lowest kills even with its combo, and stam sorc is more deadly and squishier than ever and it outshine its mate magsorc.

Most people who play in High MMR BGs queue for deathmatch than other game modes.

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Sorry, what? Streak stun is unblockable already 2 patches. And Fossilize unlike Streak doesn't provide gap closer/escape tool, have lesser range, larger cost and is not aoe. Fossilize is powerful yes, but i'll trade it for Streak any day. (as stamDK main)

And then ud complain about sorcs guaranteed one shots on people like with old rune cage. Lmao.

What's the difference between timing meteor, curse with streak into frags (+mages fury as an option) vs doing the same with fossilize? Difference is only in terms that using streak requires skill, while fossilize works always if target is not cc-immune.
I'm not saying that streak stun itself is something unbearable, problem is that it grants gap closer/escape tool too. Basically 3 abilities in 1. Of course it's nice to have such abilities, but problem is that DK was nerfed to the point that class doesn't have any such "universal" ability at all. Yes, we have leap, but that is ultimate.
I understand that DK is sort of counter to magsorc (and magblade) with fossilize draining stamina and wings negating burst, but all that doesn't work against other classes so good.

Night and day difference actually. With streak, you have to wait for the animation to end and turn around before following up giving time to ur opponent to cc break. Best case scenario you maybe get 1 hit at ur opponent before cc breaking which is also why the streak combo is only really effective with meteor since meteor is a backloaded ult. With any other ult its kinda iffy to use streak cause you simply wont have enough time to follow up with ur burst.

There is a reason why with old rune cage there was an outrage demanding the skill to be butchered while with streak there isnt much of a hassle outside the usual threads. That is because their practical application isnt even remotely the same.

So again, wanna trade fossilize with streak. Just know that you will be bringing old rune cage meta back and you will be back here asking fossilize to be butchered cause you will literally have zero counterplay to sorc burst and asking for streak to be buffed cause the stun is not reliable offensively. Not saying fossilize as an ability is better than streak. Its not, but in terms of reliable offensive cc, its not even a contest. Fossilize is simply better.

But there is already fossilize alternative available to everyone - turn evil, which is btw harder cc then fossilize, in terms of break free. Yeah, it is rather costly for magicka builds but if it guaranteed successful burst against balanced builds, I'm sure magsorcs would use it. But obviously no magsorc use it, why? Altmer or dunmer could afford it. They don't use it because it requires coming into close melee range first and there is simply no place on magsorc bars both for gap closer and hard-cc. Thus, streak is perfect ability because it's both gap closer and unblockable cc (and kite tool as well). Key point here is that streak requires skill to use and it is not so easy to land against agile opponent.. which sort of balances it out.
But if you are playing not very agile build, streak is like a can-opener against you and it is more deadly on stamsorcs too.

Overall, I'll be ok with streak if ZOS buffed empowering chains. Those are really in pitiful state in comparison to other gap closers and given that it is gap closer of most melee oriented class... it is weird that melee class has worst gap closer in the game (well, worst after "flying blade").

The argument is about the reliability of a cc and bringing turn evil into the discussion literally proves my point. Just because ability A and ability B are both undodgeable and unblockable it doesn't mean that their practical application is the same. Turn evil is not good because it costs a third of ur Stam and requires u to be on top of ur opponent which makes it unreliable even tho it can't be blocked and dodged. Same with Streak, it can't be blocked or dodged but it's practical application as an offensive cc is very different compared to fossilize or old rune cage because you have to wait the animation to end and turn around before following up with ur burst.

Ita common sense really. There was an outrage with old rune cage. Undodgeable unblockable and dealt damage. Same with Streak with the added benefit that u don't have to sacrifice an ability to run it since it was already on ur bar. So logic says that that there should be an even bigger outrage with sorcs and their guaranteed burst with no counters with butcher Streak threads popping left right and center. And yet there isn't. Well that is because its practical application is not even close to old rune cage since the ability has restrictions built in the ability itself when u look at it from a cc perspective.

Yes, and also because sorcs received ton of indirect nerfs (clench, soul assault, pirate skeleton and so on) and now sorc though still powerful but not most powerful class anymore. If ZOS instead of buffing underperforming abilities will just nerf jabs to the ground, next patch there will be new favorite "nerf item" and it might be Streak. So in our all interest is to convince ZOS to stop nerfing and instead provide viable means to counter play powerful combos.
We definitely don't need more defense or protections, we need more multi-function abilities (like Streak) which will left some space on bars to slot more damaging abilities.

I don’t think jabs is an issue. I’m noticing more sorcs all the time not Templars.

I swear half the people in BGs these days are sorcs. If you look at the leaderboard I think half those names are sorcs too.

Here is a table with comparison of stam spammables (which you probably already saw), I tried to make it as objective as possible. It's pretty clear that other classes then templar must have access to sustained dps of jabs. It may be more effective dots, better class spammables, access to damage buffs whatever... as for now jabs with 1.0 cast time channel, deal 1.7 times more damage then Warden's dizzy with 0.8 cast time (with minor berserk and 2 animal abilities slotted).. no amount of la weaving difference/class passives/roll-dodges/sidesteps will compensate for that.

Since you are so intent on being objective, how about you actually play a Stamplar and see whether or not those dps numbers you are trying to pawn off as truth are reflective in what actually happens in game? There is an animation bug in the game that still retains the old cast-time an global cooldown, which your chart blissfully ignores. Go ahead and show us how easy is is to get that 1 second cast time you deem is so important that it puts poor stamina wardens to shame.

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

To spam jabs, toppling and sweep not much prediction is needed.

TL;DR. However, to your last sentence. Walk through it, block, heal. Proper counter combo. There, now you can't complain since you learned how to play.

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Sorry, what? Streak stun is unblockable already 2 patches. And Fossilize unlike Streak doesn't provide gap closer/escape tool, have lesser range, larger cost and is not aoe. Fossilize is powerful yes, but i'll trade it for Streak any day. (as stamDK main)

And then ud complain about sorcs guaranteed one shots on people like with old rune cage. Lmao.

What's the difference between timing meteor, curse with streak into frags (+mages fury as an option) vs doing the same with fossilize? Difference is only in terms that using streak requires skill, while fossilize works always if target is not cc-immune.
I'm not saying that streak stun itself is something unbearable, problem is that it grants gap closer/escape tool too. Basically 3 abilities in 1. Of course it's nice to have such abilities, but problem is that DK was nerfed to the point that class doesn't have any such "universal" ability at all. Yes, we have leap, but that is ultimate.
I understand that DK is sort of counter to magsorc (and magblade) with fossilize draining stamina and wings negating burst, but all that doesn't work against other classes so good.

Night and day difference actually. With streak, you have to wait for the animation to end and turn around before following up giving time to ur opponent to cc break. Best case scenario you maybe get 1 hit at ur opponent before cc breaking which is also why the streak combo is only really effective with meteor since meteor is a backloaded ult. With any other ult its kinda iffy to use streak cause you simply wont have enough time to follow up with ur burst.

There is a reason why with old rune cage there was an outrage demanding the skill to be butchered while with streak there isnt much of a hassle outside the usual threads. That is because their practical application isnt even remotely the same.

So again, wanna trade fossilize with streak. Just know that you will be bringing old rune cage meta back and you will be back here asking fossilize to be butchered cause you will literally have zero counterplay to sorc burst and asking for streak to be buffed cause the stun is not reliable offensively. Not saying fossilize as an ability is better than streak. Its not, but in terms of reliable offensive cc, its not even a contest. Fossilize is simply better.

But there is already fossilize alternative available to everyone - turn evil, which is btw harder cc then fossilize, in terms of break free. Yeah, it is rather costly for magicka builds but if it guaranteed successful burst against balanced builds, I'm sure magsorcs would use it. But obviously no magsorc use it, why? Altmer or dunmer could afford it. They don't use it because it requires coming into close melee range first and there is simply no place on magsorc bars both for gap closer and hard-cc. Thus, streak is perfect ability because it's both gap closer and unblockable cc (and kite tool as well). Key point here is that streak requires skill to use and it is not so easy to land against agile opponent.. which sort of balances it out.
But if you are playing not very agile build, streak is like a can-opener against you and it is more deadly on stamsorcs too.

Overall, I'll be ok with streak if ZOS buffed empowering chains. Those are really in pitiful state in comparison to other gap closers and given that it is gap closer of most melee oriented class... it is weird that melee class has worst gap closer in the game (well, worst after "flying blade").

The argument is about the reliability of a cc and bringing turn evil into the discussion literally proves my point. Just because ability A and ability B are both undodgeable and unblockable it doesn't mean that their practical application is the same. Turn evil is not good because it costs a third of ur Stam and requires u to be on top of ur opponent which makes it unreliable even tho it can't be blocked and dodged. Same with Streak, it can't be blocked or dodged but it's practical application as an offensive cc is very different compared to fossilize or old rune cage because you have to wait the animation to end and turn around before following up with ur burst.

Ita common sense really. There was an outrage with old rune cage. Undodgeable unblockable and dealt damage. Same with Streak with the added benefit that u don't have to sacrifice an ability to run it since it was already on ur bar. So logic says that that there should be an even bigger outrage with sorcs and their guaranteed burst with no counters with butcher Streak threads popping left right and center. And yet there isn't. Well that is because its practical application is not even close to old rune cage since the ability has restrictions built in the ability itself when u look at it from a cc perspective.

Yes, and also because sorcs received ton of indirect nerfs (clench, soul assault, pirate skeleton and so on) and now sorc though still powerful but not most powerful class anymore. If ZOS instead of buffing underperforming abilities will just nerf jabs to the ground, next patch there will be new favorite "nerf item" and it might be Streak. So in our all interest is to convince ZOS to stop nerfing and instead provide viable means to counter play powerful combos.
We definitely don't need more defense or protections, we need more multi-function abilities (like Streak) which will left some space on bars to slot more damaging abilities.

I don’t think jabs is an issue. I’m noticing more sorcs all the time not Templars.

I swear half the people in BGs these days are sorcs. If you look at the leaderboard I think half those names are sorcs too.

Here is a table with comparison of stam spammables (which you probably already saw), I tried to make it as objective as possible. It's pretty clear that other classes then templar must have access to sustained dps of jabs. It may be more effective dots, better class spammables, access to damage buffs whatever... as for now jabs with 1.0 cast time channel, deal 1.7 times more damage then Warden's dizzy with 0.8 cast time (with minor berserk and 2 animal abilities slotted).. no amount of la weaving difference/class passives/roll-dodges/sidesteps will compensate for that.

Since you are so intent on being objective, how about you actually play a Stamplar and see whether or not those dps numbers you are trying to pawn off as truth are reflective in what actually happens in game? There is an animation bug in the game that still retains the old cast-time an global cooldown, which your chart blissfully ignores. Go ahead and show us how easy is is to get that 1 second cast time you deem is so important that it puts poor stamina wardens to shame.

Let's increase dizzy cast time to 1 second and damage in 70% to compensate for less light attacks per second on jabs? /s

PVE stamplars are using jabs instead of wreckling blow, this is all proof you need about what it more effective even if we won't account snare, minor protection and major savagery all of which are useless in dummy parsing. Animation bug may happen to any cast time ability.. hell, that bug may happen to any ability, even to light attacks which sometimes turn to double medium attacks with screen freezed for 1 GCD.

And again - all the problem with toppling charge/jab spammers appeared after direct nerfs to DK, NB and in some extent to sorc. Previously you'll be melting in claw, noxious and stinging slashes while DK will dodge your jabs after applying dots. NB will deliver 20k+ burst in 1-2 GCD from cloak without damned cast time incap with silence instead of stun... pre-U23 Sorc will go with standard combo but stunning you from distance without necessity to streak through you to deliver burst.

So you may say that it was good that 1st, 2nd and 3rd best specs (magsorc, stamNB, stamDK) were nerfed to let other specs shine for a time. But jabs/toppling/sweep spam is not a shine. It is just dumb easy to use, hard to counter powerful combo. Warden may deliver very deadly bursts but they need to precisely time shalks, cast time DBoS and also predict what enemy will do. To spam jabs, toppling and sweep not much prediction is needed.

The bug does not just happen with any ability, it is related to anything that had a cast time that ZOS supposedly lower to 1 second. The problem is that while they adjusted the cast time, they did not adjust the animation, so it doesn't sync.

See here:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/478528/templars-channels-and-the-elsweyr-changes#latest

Before you go and nerf the skill, how about ZoS actually fixes it first? Oh, Magplars are still using Elemental Weapon so you might want to adjust your chart.

Jeremy wrote: »

markusloveFTM wrote: »

I just feel like the stun from steak is overkill; I wouldn't mind it if it maybe applied minor maim (15% damage done debuff) or something to the enemy, but a stun? For a mobility tool? Seems a bit OP.

I mean, they already have their crystal fragments for a stun.

Sorry for the small post, I didn't know what else to say.

It is incredibly annoying, so I"m with you.

I wish they would just remove stuns from PvP period. This game's PvP would be more fun without them. That or just bring back the old unstoppable ability which gave players an effective way to counter it.

Here is what I think about stun and cc as it relates to pvp combat, having played for quite some time.
Utilities are fundamentally a good thing in the game, be it slow, root, silence, stun. They give dimensions to the game. Having a variety of diverse dimensions to combat makes it interesting, complex, and is the essence of the learning curve.

It's not that these things are bad. They aren't bad. It's that they offer too much power for how little they cost.
Things that keep players locked down are fundamentally bad for combat, especially in situations where you are getting slammed by multiple players at once. The on demand nature of all of these things create problems in the fluidity of movement in combat, and lead to a lot of frustrating moments where you die, not because of a lack of play capacity, but simply because you just can't do anything.

They need to reprioritize these effects so that the strongest of them are either extremely high cost, or are on ultimates, and only provide the weakest versions of them on spam-ables. Something like:

-Very low % slows (like 10-12% maximum, not stacking) on low cost skills (a moderate amount of them)
-Very very low timer roots (like .5 seconds) on moderate cost skills (a few)
-Very very high cost, low duration (like 1-2s) stuns on spam-ables (a few, like 6-8k resource costs)
-Higher value versions of all of them on ultimates above 120 ult cost

That way you have to use them strategically. None of them should be in conjunction with other significant effects and high damage all at once. None of them should be on gap closers. Lastly, breaking CC with non-skill or potion mechanics should grant the immunity effect from all sources, not just from the original source. All of this would go a long way to making combat movement more dynamic and free flowing, and stop entertaining situations where groups can just brutalize individual players.

The only problem with this is that the tank meta is incredibly strong and the downshift in effectiveness of cc/stuns/etc will make it even more so.

Anyron wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

universal_wrath wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Sorry, what? Streak stun is unblockable already 2 patches. And Fossilize unlike Streak doesn't provide gap closer/escape tool, have lesser range, larger cost and is not aoe. Fossilize is powerful yes, but i'll trade it for Streak any day. (as stamDK main)

And then ud complain about sorcs guaranteed one shots on people like with old rune cage. Lmao.

What's the difference between timing meteor, curse with streak into frags (+mages fury as an option) vs doing the same with fossilize? Difference is only in terms that using streak requires skill, while fossilize works always if target is not cc-immune.
I'm not saying that streak stun itself is something unbearable, problem is that it grants gap closer/escape tool too. Basically 3 abilities in 1. Of course it's nice to have such abilities, but problem is that DK was nerfed to the point that class doesn't have any such "universal" ability at all. Yes, we have leap, but that is ultimate.
I understand that DK is sort of counter to magsorc (and magblade) with fossilize draining stamina and wings negating burst, but all that doesn't work against other classes so good.

Would you not say that fossilize is also 5 in 1 ability? It grants ulti, stam, minor brutality, stun, and immoblization in 1 button? And since you mentioned leap, it is the strongest abd most verstile ulti in the game.

Leap is strongest if it is not blocked. If it is blocked it's just... gap closer with some damage. So it's good to leap onto somebody who don't see you or who turned his back on you. But if he is trying to kill you right now, take flight is so-so. So far onslaught have much higher impact then leap (which is justified ofc because of range and cast time). So Leap has counter play, Streak... it's more of unpredictable thing.. basically depends on game performance and sorc's skill. And leap is an ultimate.

Fossilize is powerful ability, but that 5 in 1 is far fetched. Majority of stamDKs will use fragmenting shield anyway and gain ultimate and minor brutality through that. Stamfist provides the same. Sorc has -15% ultimate cost for doing nothing. Again, I'll exchange that "3 ultimate once in 6 seconds" for sorcs ultimate cost decrease anytime. And streak also deals some damage while stamDKs fossilize is not and you receive spell/weapon damage for Streak being slotted.

If we are swapping passives, could i get your battle roar for ulti cost?

You will get pretty much dissapointed. Is not the killing passive most people believes unless you have an execute.

Most of the time you will use the ulti to kill, and the resources got after killing an enemy are kind of useless, unless there are more than one enemy. In that case you will be facing potatoes, so the extra resources won't be necessary.

The only useful moves with Battle Roar are: Shield Ulti and Panacea, since you can drop both when you need to recover resources and heal/protect yourself. In any other case the passive will not help you.

If you don't believe me, try a DK and check the use of the passive. There's just a small window when it really helps you, but most of the time is just irrelevant.

15% extra regen on NBs is a much better passive.

Streak is strong...kind of like a lot of abilities on great players. Does it need a nerf? Ehhh, honestly in my opinion, no. We should really be asking for buffs in others areas to bring each other up to par in mobility. The community seems to keep asking for nerfs and we complain about tankiness and overpowered healing right? Let's start talkin buffs!

Wolverton808b14_ESO wrote: »

Streak is strong...kind of like a lot of abilities on great players. Does it need a nerf? Ehhh, honestly in my opinion, no. We should really be asking for buffs in others areas to bring each other up to par in mobility. The community seems to keep asking for nerfs and we complain about tankiness and overpowered healing right? Let's start talkin buffs!

Negative, this skill needs a nerf because it has 0 counter play, you don't want to promote 0 counter play cc's it already has it's buff of reduce fatigue allowing for more streaks but it needs to be blockable at least.

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Sorry, what? Streak stun is unblockable already 2 patches. And Fossilize unlike Streak doesn't provide gap closer/escape tool, have lesser range, larger cost and is not aoe. Fossilize is powerful yes, but i'll trade it for Streak any day. (as stamDK main)

And then ud complain about sorcs guaranteed one shots on people like with old rune cage. Lmao.

What's the difference between timing meteor, curse with streak into frags (+mages fury as an option) vs doing the same with fossilize? Difference is only in terms that using streak requires skill, while fossilize works always if target is not cc-immune.
I'm not saying that streak stun itself is something unbearable, problem is that it grants gap closer/escape tool too. Basically 3 abilities in 1. Of course it's nice to have such abilities, but problem is that DK was nerfed to the point that class doesn't have any such "universal" ability at all. Yes, we have leap, but that is ultimate.
I understand that DK is sort of counter to magsorc (and magblade) with fossilize draining stamina and wings negating burst, but all that doesn't work against other classes so good.

Night and day difference actually. With streak, you have to wait for the animation to end and turn around before following up giving time to ur opponent to cc break. Best case scenario you maybe get 1 hit at ur opponent before cc breaking which is also why the streak combo is only really effective with meteor since meteor is a backloaded ult. With any other ult its kinda iffy to use streak cause you simply wont have enough time to follow up with ur burst.

There is a reason why with old rune cage there was an outrage demanding the skill to be butchered while with streak there isnt much of a hassle outside the usual threads. That is because their practical application isnt even remotely the same.

So again, wanna trade fossilize with streak. Just know that you will be bringing old rune cage meta back and you will be back here asking fossilize to be butchered cause you will literally have zero counterplay to sorc burst and asking for streak to be buffed cause the stun is not reliable offensively. Not saying fossilize as an ability is better than streak. Its not, but in terms of reliable offensive cc, its not even a contest. Fossilize is simply better.

But there is already fossilize alternative available to everyone - turn evil, which is btw harder cc then fossilize, in terms of break free. Yeah, it is rather costly for magicka builds but if it guaranteed successful burst against balanced builds, I'm sure magsorcs would use it. But obviously no magsorc use it, why? Altmer or dunmer could afford it. They don't use it because it requires coming into close melee range first and there is simply no place on magsorc bars both for gap closer and hard-cc. Thus, streak is perfect ability because it's both gap closer and unblockable cc (and kite tool as well). Key point here is that streak requires skill to use and it is not so easy to land against agile opponent.. which sort of balances it out.
But if you are playing not very agile build, streak is like a can-opener against you and it is more deadly on stamsorcs too.

Overall, I'll be ok with streak if ZOS buffed empowering chains. Those are really in pitiful state in comparison to other gap closers and given that it is gap closer of most melee oriented class... it is weird that melee class has worst gap closer in the game (well, worst after "flying blade").

The argument is about the reliability of a cc and bringing turn evil into the discussion literally proves my point. Just because ability A and ability B are both undodgeable and unblockable it doesn't mean that their practical application is the same. Turn evil is not good because it costs a third of ur Stam and requires u to be on top of ur opponent which makes it unreliable even tho it can't be blocked and dodged. Same with Streak, it can't be blocked or dodged but it's practical application as an offensive cc is very different compared to fossilize or old rune cage because you have to wait the animation to end and turn around before following up with ur burst.

Ita common sense really. There was an outrage with old rune cage. Undodgeable unblockable and dealt damage. Same with Streak with the added benefit that u don't have to sacrifice an ability to run it since it was already on ur bar. So logic says that that there should be an even bigger outrage with sorcs and their guaranteed burst with no counters with butcher Streak threads popping left right and center. And yet there isn't. Well that is because its practical application is not even close to old rune cage since the ability has restrictions built in the ability itself when u look at it from a cc perspective.

Yes, and also because sorcs received ton of indirect nerfs (clench, soul assault, pirate skeleton and so on) and now sorc though still powerful but not most powerful class anymore. If ZOS instead of buffing underperforming abilities will just nerf jabs to the ground, next patch there will be new favorite "nerf item" and it might be Streak. So in our all interest is to convince ZOS to stop nerfing and instead provide viable means to counter play powerful combos.
We definitely don't need more defense or protections, we need more multi-function abilities (like Streak) which will left some space on bars to slot more damaging abilities.

I don’t think jabs is an issue. I’m noticing more sorcs all the time not Templars.

I swear half the people in BGs these days are sorcs. If you look at the leaderboard I think half those names are sorcs too.

Here is a table with comparison of stam spammables (which you probably already saw), I tried to make it as objective as possible. It's pretty clear that other classes then templar must have access to sustained dps of jabs. It may be more effective dots, better class spammables, access to damage buffs whatever... as for now jabs with 1.0 cast time channel, deal 1.7 times more damage then Warden's dizzy with 0.8 cast time (with minor berserk and 2 animal abilities slotted).. no amount of la weaving difference/class passives/roll-dodges/sidesteps will compensate for that.

Since you are so intent on being objective, how about you actually play a Stamplar and see whether or not those dps numbers you are trying to pawn off as truth are reflective in what actually happens in game? There is an animation bug in the game that still retains the old cast-time an global cooldown, which your chart blissfully ignores. Go ahead and show us how easy is is to get that 1 second cast time you deem is so important that it puts poor stamina wardens to shame.

Let's increase dizzy cast time to 1 second and damage in 70% to compensate for less light attacks per second on jabs? /s

PVE stamplars are using jabs instead of wreckling blow, this is all proof you need about what it more effective even if we won't account snare, minor protection and major savagery all of which are useless in dummy parsing. Animation bug may happen to any cast time ability.. hell, that bug may happen to any ability, even to light attacks which sometimes turn to double medium attacks with screen freezed for 1 GCD.

And again - all the problem with toppling charge/jab spammers appeared after direct nerfs to DK, NB and in some extent to sorc. Previously you'll be melting in claw, noxious and stinging slashes while DK will dodge your jabs after applying dots. NB will deliver 20k+ burst in 1-2 GCD from cloak without damned cast time incap with silence instead of stun... pre-U23 Sorc will go with standard combo but stunning you from distance without necessity to streak through you to deliver burst.

So you may say that it was good that 1st, 2nd and 3rd best specs (magsorc, stamNB, stamDK) were nerfed to let other specs shine for a time. But jabs/toppling/sweep spam is not a shine. It is just dumb easy to use, hard to counter powerful combo. Warden may deliver very deadly bursts but they need to precisely time shalks, cast time DBoS and also predict what enemy will do. To spam jabs, toppling and sweep not much prediction is needed.

The bug does not just happen with any ability, it is related to anything that had a cast time that ZOS supposedly lower to 1 second. The problem is that while they adjusted the cast time, they did not adjust the animation, so it doesn't sync.

See here:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/478528/templars-channels-and-the-elsweyr-changes#latest

Before you go and nerf the skill, how about ZoS actually fixes it first? Oh, Magplars are still using Elemental Weapon so you might want to adjust your chart.

In your own linked thread, there is actual test from combat metrics (not perception, but measurement) with counter argument by @ecru... but ok, i did test myself, since I have magplar and played one quite a lot - 120 hits in 30 seconds, i.e. exactly 30 jabs in 30 seconds:


There is no bug. Of course if game lags experience may vary. But it will vary for all abilities in the game. In peak hours bar swap often have 1 second delay if happen at all and ultimate may play animation of going out but didn't trigger...

I logged on hoping to all hopes that ZOS actually fixed this. But they didn't.

So where's the light attack weave? I too can quickly press my #2 key to cut short the longer than 1 second animation in a instanced environment with no lag, but that doesn't change the fact that the animation time does not match the cast-time of the skill. If you bothered to read the thread, I did say it was possible to override the game's animation and execute the next attack in a second with a weave, but this requires precise timing and a decent latency where such is possible. No other class spammable or instant cast requires a player to ignore what they are seeing on screen and instead cut short the animation in order to execute the skill as intended by the developers.

The fact that one should have to do this, regardless of the class they play, is absolute crap and would unacceptable even in Kickstarter game, to say nothing of a AAA title that supposedly has millions of players.

You and ecru both believe that it's perfectly fine that players have to go through these shenanigans and deal with incongruous animations, which says everything that needs to be said regarding your "objectivity." One of the starting points for having an objective conversation is to have it as a given that a class or playstyle will actually have skills function according to their tooltips in any setting before you go around swinging the nerf bat. The day ZOS fixes the animation and no PvE Magplar DPS has to spend hours or crowns getting Elemental Weapon, I will come onto the forums and consent to a damage nerf. But I'm kind of funny that way; I prefer animations and cast-times to sync up and function at least as reasonable as other skill when I'm playing the lovely 300+ Ping I get in Cyrodiil.