Why is everything non-constructive all of a sudden?

eso_lags · December 2019

AgaTheGreat wrote: »

I find this forum to be heavily censored and moderated at the moment. I don't remember it being this restrictive. Many posts go missing because they're "non-constructive". Threads get closed. Discussions get cut short even thought they are not at all extreme when it comes to so called flame or baiting. What's going on...

Anyone else sees the change in the forums?

(This topic is going to get closed because it's not constructive in 3... 2... 1....)

its been like this for a while now.. Maybe the last year or so. I mean there was always moderation but there was definitely a point where it started to get out of hand. Like when I got banned for saying l2p to someone. Acting tyrannical is nothing new to zos and they are a company that just dont care what the players of their game think of them.

Tigerseye · December 2019

eso_lags wrote: »

AgaTheGreat wrote: »

I find this forum to be heavily censored and moderated at the moment. I don't remember it being this restrictive. Many posts go missing because they're "non-constructive". Threads get closed. Discussions get cut short even thought they are not at all extreme when it comes to so called flame or baiting. What's going on...

Anyone else sees the change in the forums?

(This topic is going to get closed because it's not constructive in 3... 2... 1....)

its been like this for a while now.. Maybe the last year or so. I mean there was always moderation but there was definitely a point where it started to get out of hand. Like when I got banned for saying l2p to someone. Acting tyrannical is nothing new to zos and they are a company that just dont care what the players of their game think of them.

Or you could consider stopping telling people to l2p.

It's not actually necessary to say that to get your point across.

Tigerseye · December 2019

Things I think are OK:

1. Complaining about aspects of the game, or its performance. Complain as long and hard as you want about that, as far as I am concerned. Threads about that should not be closed, in my opinion, without very good reason.
2. Complaining (reasonably politely) about the behaviour of other players/posters, in general.
3. Making (reasonably polite) jokes and somewhat off-topic comments, within reason.

Things I don't think are OK:

1. Calling out individual devs.
2. Calling devs rude names.
3. Calling out other players by name.
4. Calling other players rude names.
5. Blaming other players for things they can't help, or can't necessarily help. For example, things that are actually caused by the faulty design of the game itself and would require the player to jump through hoops to try to avoid. Or things that are normal for newer players to experience.
6. Intentional trolling, baiting, flaming, derailing, or bullying. When a large proportion of regular posters admit they are here, primarily, to troll (in a poll), that is obviously not good.
7. Starting threads that make absolutely no specific, or relevant, point.

I've had posts removed, when other people have been rude first (and after!) and I have also seen threads closed that I think should have been left open (and just moderated, where necessary).

So, the moderation isn't always perfect, admittedly.

However, leaving people free to say exactly what they like (without any moderation) creates a hostile environment and makes it harder for people to post their genuine concerns with the game - not easier - for fear of being trolled/flamed.

So, a lack of moderation doesn't facilitate free speech, on a forum like this; it closes it down.

It also may put people off the game, as they may think it is like this in-game, when most of the time it isn't.

Or not on the EU servers, anyway.

I'm a (left wing) libertarian, so I believe people should be free to say what they like, at the point of delivery.

I don't believe in authoritarian levels of censorship.

In most cases, in a forum that is not full of self-confessed trolls anyway, it is far better to debate things, or let them go, rather than censor.

However, if someone says something that only insults/trolls/baits, is not constructive and is not necessary to make a salient point, they should be prepared for it to be removed.

Removal of threads on the basis that they criticise the product we all buy would be wrong, however and I believe that would remain the case, even if another excuse was found to close the thread (rather than just moderate it).

Ultimately, though, if people genuinely want threads to stay open, a certain amount of responsibility also lies on the shoulders of the posters to not say something that may excuse the closing of the thread...

In other words, stay reasonably polite and on topic and threads are more likely to stay open.

JackDaniell · December 2019

Moderating a public forum is where they went wrong.

Instead of doing something about the problems that lead to all the criticism they are busy trying to manufacture a more favorable image.

Time and money would be better spent just improving the darn game.

Hallothiel · December 2019

@CassandraGemini

Excellent post! Sums up my feelings very well. Thank you.

Tandor · December 2019

JackDaniell wrote: »

Moderating a public forum is where they went wrong.

Instead of doing something about the problems that lead to all the criticism they are busy trying to manufacture a more favorable image.

Time and money would be better spent just improving the darn game.

Except that it's not a public forum, it's a private one run by ZOS who are entitled to apply and enforce such TOS as they deem appropriate. Players are equally entitled to choose whether or not to use the forum on that basis.

GhostofDatthaw · December 2019

Tandor wrote: »

JackDaniell wrote: »

Moderating a public forum is where they went wrong.

Instead of doing something about the problems that lead to all the criticism they are busy trying to manufacture a more favorable image.

Time and money would be better spent just improving the darn game.

Except that it's not a public forum, it's a private one run by ZOS who are entitled to apply and enforce such TOS as they deem appropriate. Players are equally entitled to choose whether or not to use the forum on that basis.

It's public anyone can read it, You just have to me a member to participate. But I think you missed Jack's point in your hurry to disagree

nolangrady · December 2019

Because they focus more attention on what paying customers have to say than actually fixing the issues. Censorship is strong with this team unfortunately.

GhostofDatthaw · December 2019

nolangrady wrote: »

Because they focus more attention on what paying customers have to say than actually fixing the issues. Censorship is strong with this team unfortunately.

I agree with your general point, they focus on crown store what (how did my phone auto correct sales to what, lawl) and dlcs. But I subbed for 5 years, I was a paying customer, and I felt forgotten after Morrowind along with the rest of PvP land

Tandor · December 2019

GhostofDatthaw wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

JackDaniell wrote: »

Moderating a public forum is where they went wrong.

Instead of doing something about the problems that lead to all the criticism they are busy trying to manufacture a more favorable image.

Time and money would be better spent just improving the darn game.

Except that it's not a public forum, it's a private one run by ZOS who are entitled to apply and enforce such TOS as they deem appropriate. Players are equally entitled to choose whether or not to use the forum on that basis.

It's public anyone can read it, You just have to me a member to participate. But I think you missed Jack's point in your hurry to disagree

I didn't miss any point, I corrected one. We're discussing posting TOS, and as you agree with me you have to be a member to post so those TOS will apply.

apri · December 2019

Grimm13 wrote: »

What ZOS needs to remember that each of these non-active players is lost potential revenue as if they are not logging in then they are not a potential cash shop purchaser.

This and also: What needs to be remembered is those who complain about bugs actually want to still play, engage and potentially spend money. Censoring those who report bugs or complain about bugs potentially adds more frustration on top of the frustration that drives them to the forums. In direct consequence of moderation action, this potentially can result in dropping off the game entirely, thus be a loss for the monetization and needed in-game-population. That's something moderation has a direct effect on, too. And this may be overlooked by the way things are dealt with most recently.

With this said, I'm not meaning hate or other unacceptable behavior. I just reference to bug reports/discussions and related moderation that more often than not appears to be over-sensitive and restrictive.

ZOS_Nith · December 2019

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

ZOS_Adrikoth wrote: »

Hey folks, we figured we would come in this thread and try to clear some things up. Criticism is perfectly fine and we do not remove comments simply because we do not like the poster's opinion.

With that being said, our moderation team does remove posts that consist of bashing, trolling, inappropriate or rude commentary. These, along with our other Community Rules, are enforced to ensure that discussions stay civil:

We understand that sometimes tempers rise, but it is never acceptable to resort to rude comments and insults. This goes for rude comments and insults directed at other community members, and ZeniMax Online Studios employees alike.

We do not expect forum members to be completely happy about every single thing all the time and a major reason that we have these forums is for you all to express any issues that feel exist in your experience with ESO. It is okay to express frustration or disagreement, as long as it doesn't cross the line of one of our Community Rules. Trolling, baiting, or directing rude comments to your fellow community members does not contribute to a healthy discussion.

Please keep in mind that discussing disciplinary action is also against our forum rules. Our team is happy to discuss any action that is taken on your forum account, and you can appeal any forum action by reaching out to our moderation team or by submitting a support ticket at help.elderscrollsonline.com

We hope that this clears up some of the concerns mentioned in this thread.

@ZOS_Adrikoth care to elaborate on that point of criticism? I've had posts edited that weren't criticisms of ZOS but just pointed out the fixes a game like FF14 went through which were completely removed.

Forum toxicity is increasing because of this type of moderation and solely this moderation. We can't speak our mind and genuine posters are told their comments are trolling or bait (which is now just asking a question for a response). If I wanted this place to be a hug box I'd just hang out on the ESO reddit but I'm an adult and this is a game for adults where you get treated like a child for having valid criticism.

P.S. Wouldn't be surprised if a certain other mod just banned me again for this post

Thank you for asking this, it's a good question and one we can elaborate on. Sometimes when several members have a heated discussion and the thread derails, comments simply become personal insults or baiting. In cases where a moderator removes the part of the conversation that contained attacks directed at others, it's with the hope that the discussion will get back on track and the thread topic can continue to be discussed. With that comes comments made by people who are not involved in the back and forth, who are replying the derailing comments. Even if the member may be speaking to a different point that the combative person made, they often quote the verbal attacks. When the problematic comments are removed, the remaining posts (that have not broken any rules), don't make any sense in the thread as their original context is no longer there. This is one of the other reasons we ask forum members to flag comments that are breaking the rules rather than quoting or responding to them. It saves the comments that are contributing to the conversation and prevents the thread from derailing.

While I don't know for a fact if this was the reasoning behind your comments removal, I hoped I was able to clarify some of the moderation team's processes.

I highly encourage you to reach out to a moderator if you ever have questions about why a moderation action was taken. Like Adrikoth previously mentioned, we do not discuss moderation action publicly but we are happy to answer questions via PMs. If you find yourself unable to contact the moderator to took the action, please feel free to reach out to another moderator.

GhostofDatthaw · December 2019

Tandor wrote: »

GhostofDatthaw wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

JackDaniell wrote: »

Moderating a public forum is where they went wrong.

Instead of doing something about the problems that lead to all the criticism they are busy trying to manufacture a more favorable image.

Time and money would be better spent just improving the darn game.

Except that it's not a public forum, it's a private one run by ZOS who are entitled to apply and enforce such TOS as they deem appropriate. Players are equally entitled to choose whether or not to use the forum on that basis.

It's public anyone can read it, You just have to me a member to participate. But I think you missed Jack's point in your hurry to disagree

I didn't miss any point, I corrected one. We're discussing posting TOS, and as you agree with me you have to be a member to post so those TOS will apply.

I guess what I'm trying to say, yes it's a Private forum in the sense you have to be a member and agree to tos in order to participate. But the information in general is public, anyone can read what is said here. So zos has more of a reason to remove negative comments in order to save face in a publicly viewed forum.

nickl413 · December 2019

AgaTheGreat wrote: »

I find this forum to be heavily censored and moderated at the moment. I don't remember it being this restrictive. Many posts go missing because they're "non-constructive". Threads get closed. Discussions get cut short even thought they are not at all extreme when it comes to so called flame or baiting. What's going on...

Anyone else sees the change in the forums?

(This topic is going to get closed because it's not constructive in 3... 2... 1....)

Ya I've noticed the change in the forums. I've also noticed an awful lot of ZOS bashing going on, multiple topics about the same things, and heated discussions between unreasonable people. The forum mods tolerate a lot more than I would if I were running the show. I mean criticism and disagreement are fine but it shouldn't get to the point where people are insulting each other and the people at ZOS.

Anotherone773 · December 2019

GhostofDatthaw wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

GhostofDatthaw wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

JackDaniell wrote: »

Moderating a public forum is where they went wrong.

Instead of doing something about the problems that lead to all the criticism they are busy trying to manufacture a more favorable image.

Time and money would be better spent just improving the darn game.

Except that it's not a public forum, it's a private one run by ZOS who are entitled to apply and enforce such TOS as they deem appropriate. Players are equally entitled to choose whether or not to use the forum on that basis.

It's public anyone can read it, You just have to me a member to participate. But I think you missed Jack's point in your hurry to disagree

I didn't miss any point, I corrected one. We're discussing posting TOS, and as you agree with me you have to be a member to post so those TOS will apply.

I guess what I'm trying to say, yes it's a Private forum in the sense you have to be a member and agree to tos in order to participate. But the information in general is public, anyone can read what is said here. So zos has more of a reason to remove negative comments in order to save face in a publicly viewed forum.

Except they dont remove comments for being negative. They remove them for violating the forum rules. I post negative comments about ZOS all the time and i can count on one hand, the amount of times, out of more than 1800 posts that my posts have been modded. And none of those have been in the last several months.

I came here from Eve, where you can be far more mouthy towards other posters on the forums. So most of the edits i received were when i was learning to reign it in on the forum. It can be a bit rough to get use too if your use to having forum debates on a more free for all forum.

Considering the actual forum rules, i think the mods are quite liberal in their moderating. i see people break the rules all the time and get a pass. Its only when it gets excessive do they actually start the enforcement. As i said in my first post in this thread, it REALLY matters how you say something on this forum. You can say almost anything here as long as you word it properly.

Elsonso · December 2019

GhostofDatthaw wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

GhostofDatthaw wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

JackDaniell wrote: »

Moderating a public forum is where they went wrong.

Instead of doing something about the problems that lead to all the criticism they are busy trying to manufacture a more favorable image.

Time and money would be better spent just improving the darn game.

Except that it's not a public forum, it's a private one run by ZOS who are entitled to apply and enforce such TOS as they deem appropriate. Players are equally entitled to choose whether or not to use the forum on that basis.

It's public anyone can read it, You just have to me a member to participate. But I think you missed Jack's point in your hurry to disagree

I didn't miss any point, I corrected one. We're discussing posting TOS, and as you agree with me you have to be a member to post so those TOS will apply.

I guess what I'm trying to say, yes it's a Private forum in the sense you have to be a member and agree to tos in order to participate. But the information in general is public, anyone can read what is said here. So zos has more of a reason to remove negative comments in order to save face in a publicly viewed forum.

People might think they remove negative comments to save face, but if that is the intent, they aren't doing a good job of it. There are tons of negative comments here. It isn't even just the negative comments as much as the uninformed negative tone, piled on exaggerations and excessive drama, as well.

You don't see me around here much because I got tired of the negative comments. That is a little ironic because I have made my share of negative comments, although mild compared to now. The current forum has gone way beyond and makes me feel uncomfortable.

I'm not having technical or performance issues in the game, and so I just don't feel like this is the place for me to be.

VaranisArano · December 2019

ZOS_Nith wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

ZOS_Adrikoth wrote: »

Hey folks, we figured we would come in this thread and try to clear some things up. Criticism is perfectly fine and we do not remove comments simply because we do not like the poster's opinion.

With that being said, our moderation team does remove posts that consist of bashing, trolling, inappropriate or rude commentary. These, along with our other Community Rules, are enforced to ensure that discussions stay civil:

We understand that sometimes tempers rise, but it is never acceptable to resort to rude comments and insults. This goes for rude comments and insults directed at other community members, and ZeniMax Online Studios employees alike.

We do not expect forum members to be completely happy about every single thing all the time and a major reason that we have these forums is for you all to express any issues that feel exist in your experience with ESO. It is okay to express frustration or disagreement, as long as it doesn't cross the line of one of our Community Rules. Trolling, baiting, or directing rude comments to your fellow community members does not contribute to a healthy discussion.

Please keep in mind that discussing disciplinary action is also against our forum rules. Our team is happy to discuss any action that is taken on your forum account, and you can appeal any forum action by reaching out to our moderation team or by submitting a support ticket at help.elderscrollsonline.com

We hope that this clears up some of the concerns mentioned in this thread.

@ZOS_Adrikoth care to elaborate on that point of criticism? I've had posts edited that weren't criticisms of ZOS but just pointed out the fixes a game like FF14 went through which were completely removed.

Forum toxicity is increasing because of this type of moderation and solely this moderation. We can't speak our mind and genuine posters are told their comments are trolling or bait (which is now just asking a question for a response). If I wanted this place to be a hug box I'd just hang out on the ESO reddit but I'm an adult and this is a game for adults where you get treated like a child for having valid criticism.

P.S. Wouldn't be surprised if a certain other mod just banned me again for this post

Thank you for asking this, it's a good question and one we can elaborate on. Sometimes when several members have a heated discussion and the thread derails, comments simply become personal insults or baiting. In cases where a moderator removes the part of the conversation that contained attacks directed at others, it's with the hope that the discussion will get back on track and the thread topic can continue to be discussed. With that comes comments made by people who are not involved in the back and forth, who are replying the derailing comments. Even if the member may be speaking to a different point that the combative person made, they often quote the verbal attacks. When the problematic comments are removed, the remaining posts (that have not broken any rules), don't make any sense in the thread as their original context is no longer there. This is one of the other reasons we ask forum members to flag comments that are breaking the rules rather than quoting or responding to them. It saves the comments that are contributing to the conversation and prevents the thread from derailing.

While I don't know for a fact if this was the reasoning behind your comments removal, I hoped I was able to clarify some of the moderation team's processes.

I highly encourage you to reach out to a moderator if you ever have questions about why a moderation action was taken. Like Adrikoth previously mentioned, we do not discuss moderation action publicly but we are happy to answer questions via PMs. If you find yourself unable to contact the moderator to took the action, please feel free to reach out to another moderator.

@ZOS_Nith Thanks for clarifying and for continuing to communicate regarding moderation practices. I've noticed you and Adrikoth being more transparent in that regard lately, and it's appreciated.

One concern I do have with your suggestion to simply report TOS-breaking comments is that I find it rather hard to do so using the mobile site UI for Google Chrome. If I try to report anything longer than a very short, unnested comment, the report box doesn't actually scroll properly to allow me to access to the key to send my report. In order to flag a comment, I have to swap to the full computer site, write and send the report, and then swap back to mobile.

Since I mainly use mobile, I don't flag many comments due to the annoying extra steps. Perhaps someone can suggest a solution or different browser? Or is this just a general problem for mobile users?

Aurielle · December 2019

nickl413 wrote: »

AgaTheGreat wrote: »

I find this forum to be heavily censored and moderated at the moment. I don't remember it being this restrictive. Many posts go missing because they're "non-constructive". Threads get closed. Discussions get cut short even thought they are not at all extreme when it comes to so called flame or baiting. What's going on...

Anyone else sees the change in the forums?

(This topic is going to get closed because it's not constructive in 3... 2... 1....)

Ya I've noticed the change in the forums. I've also noticed an awful lot of ZOS bashing going on, multiple topics about the same things, and heated discussions between unreasonable people. The forum mods tolerate a lot more than I would if I were running the show. I mean criticism and disagreement are fine but it shouldn't get to the point where people are insulting each other and the people at ZOS.

ESO’s forums are not unique, in this regard. Video game forums tend to be populated by people who are very passionate about said games; passion and heated discussions have an unfortunate tendency to go hand in hand, particularly when games start going south. ESO’s forums would likely be much less toxic if the game were in a better state, performance-wise. Multiple topics about the same things occur because these issues keep cropping up over and over again, and people are understandably upset that a game they’ve spent lots of money on is not functioning like it should.

CassandraGemini · December 2019

VaranisArano wrote: »

ZOS_Nith wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

ZOS_Adrikoth wrote: »

Hey folks, we figured we would come in this thread and try to clear some things up. Criticism is perfectly fine and we do not remove comments simply because we do not like the poster's opinion.

With that being said, our moderation team does remove posts that consist of bashing, trolling, inappropriate or rude commentary. These, along with our other Community Rules, are enforced to ensure that discussions stay civil:

We understand that sometimes tempers rise, but it is never acceptable to resort to rude comments and insults. This goes for rude comments and insults directed at other community members, and ZeniMax Online Studios employees alike.

We do not expect forum members to be completely happy about every single thing all the time and a major reason that we have these forums is for you all to express any issues that feel exist in your experience with ESO. It is okay to express frustration or disagreement, as long as it doesn't cross the line of one of our Community Rules. Trolling, baiting, or directing rude comments to your fellow community members does not contribute to a healthy discussion.

Please keep in mind that discussing disciplinary action is also against our forum rules. Our team is happy to discuss any action that is taken on your forum account, and you can appeal any forum action by reaching out to our moderation team or by submitting a support ticket at help.elderscrollsonline.com

We hope that this clears up some of the concerns mentioned in this thread.

@ZOS_Adrikoth care to elaborate on that point of criticism? I've had posts edited that weren't criticisms of ZOS but just pointed out the fixes a game like FF14 went through which were completely removed.

Forum toxicity is increasing because of this type of moderation and solely this moderation. We can't speak our mind and genuine posters are told their comments are trolling or bait (which is now just asking a question for a response). If I wanted this place to be a hug box I'd just hang out on the ESO reddit but I'm an adult and this is a game for adults where you get treated like a child for having valid criticism.

P.S. Wouldn't be surprised if a certain other mod just banned me again for this post

Thank you for asking this, it's a good question and one we can elaborate on. Sometimes when several members have a heated discussion and the thread derails, comments simply become personal insults or baiting. In cases where a moderator removes the part of the conversation that contained attacks directed at others, it's with the hope that the discussion will get back on track and the thread topic can continue to be discussed. With that comes comments made by people who are not involved in the back and forth, who are replying the derailing comments. Even if the member may be speaking to a different point that the combative person made, they often quote the verbal attacks. When the problematic comments are removed, the remaining posts (that have not broken any rules), don't make any sense in the thread as their original context is no longer there. This is one of the other reasons we ask forum members to flag comments that are breaking the rules rather than quoting or responding to them. It saves the comments that are contributing to the conversation and prevents the thread from derailing.

While I don't know for a fact if this was the reasoning behind your comments removal, I hoped I was able to clarify some of the moderation team's processes.

I highly encourage you to reach out to a moderator if you ever have questions about why a moderation action was taken. Like Adrikoth previously mentioned, we do not discuss moderation action publicly but we are happy to answer questions via PMs. If you find yourself unable to contact the moderator to took the action, please feel free to reach out to another moderator.

@ZOS_Nith Thanks for clarifying and for continuing to communicate regarding moderation practices. I've noticed you and Adrikoth being more transparent in that regard lately, and it's appreciated.

One concern I do have with your suggestion to simply report TOS-breaking comments is that I find it rather hard to do so using the mobile site UI for Google Chrome. If I try to report anything longer than a very short, unnested comment, the report box doesn't actually scroll properly to allow me to access to the key to send my report. In order to flag a comment, I have to swap to the full computer site, write and send the report, and then swap back to mobile.

Since I mainly use mobile, I don't flag many comments due to the annoying extra steps. Perhaps someone can suggest a solution or different browser? Or is this just a general problem for mobile users?

I've actually encountered the same problem, not on mobile, but on my laptop. There was no way to scroll down enough to activate the "send" button, I had to use "tab" and "enter" to make it work. However, I was also using Google Chrome, so maybe it has something to do with the browser?

ZOS_Nith · December 2019

VaranisArano wrote: »

ZOS_Nith wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

ZOS_Adrikoth wrote: »

Hey folks, we figured we would come in this thread and try to clear some things up. Criticism is perfectly fine and we do not remove comments simply because we do not like the poster's opinion.

With that being said, our moderation team does remove posts that consist of bashing, trolling, inappropriate or rude commentary. These, along with our other Community Rules, are enforced to ensure that discussions stay civil:

We understand that sometimes tempers rise, but it is never acceptable to resort to rude comments and insults. This goes for rude comments and insults directed at other community members, and ZeniMax Online Studios employees alike.

We do not expect forum members to be completely happy about every single thing all the time and a major reason that we have these forums is for you all to express any issues that feel exist in your experience with ESO. It is okay to express frustration or disagreement, as long as it doesn't cross the line of one of our Community Rules. Trolling, baiting, or directing rude comments to your fellow community members does not contribute to a healthy discussion.

Please keep in mind that discussing disciplinary action is also against our forum rules. Our team is happy to discuss any action that is taken on your forum account, and you can appeal any forum action by reaching out to our moderation team or by submitting a support ticket at help.elderscrollsonline.com

We hope that this clears up some of the concerns mentioned in this thread.

@ZOS_Adrikoth care to elaborate on that point of criticism? I've had posts edited that weren't criticisms of ZOS but just pointed out the fixes a game like FF14 went through which were completely removed.

Forum toxicity is increasing because of this type of moderation and solely this moderation. We can't speak our mind and genuine posters are told their comments are trolling or bait (which is now just asking a question for a response). If I wanted this place to be a hug box I'd just hang out on the ESO reddit but I'm an adult and this is a game for adults where you get treated like a child for having valid criticism.

P.S. Wouldn't be surprised if a certain other mod just banned me again for this post

Thank you for asking this, it's a good question and one we can elaborate on. Sometimes when several members have a heated discussion and the thread derails, comments simply become personal insults or baiting. In cases where a moderator removes the part of the conversation that contained attacks directed at others, it's with the hope that the discussion will get back on track and the thread topic can continue to be discussed. With that comes comments made by people who are not involved in the back and forth, who are replying the derailing comments. Even if the member may be speaking to a different point that the combative person made, they often quote the verbal attacks. When the problematic comments are removed, the remaining posts (that have not broken any rules), don't make any sense in the thread as their original context is no longer there. This is one of the other reasons we ask forum members to flag comments that are breaking the rules rather than quoting or responding to them. It saves the comments that are contributing to the conversation and prevents the thread from derailing.

While I don't know for a fact if this was the reasoning behind your comments removal, I hoped I was able to clarify some of the moderation team's processes.

I highly encourage you to reach out to a moderator if you ever have questions about why a moderation action was taken. Like Adrikoth previously mentioned, we do not discuss moderation action publicly but we are happy to answer questions via PMs. If you find yourself unable to contact the moderator to took the action, please feel free to reach out to another moderator.

@ZOS_Nith Thanks for clarifying and for continuing to communicate regarding moderation practices. I've noticed you and Adrikoth being more transparent in that regard lately, and it's appreciated.

One concern I do have with your suggestion to simply report TOS-breaking comments is that I find it rather hard to do so using the mobile site UI for Google Chrome. If I try to report anything longer than a very short, unnested comment, the report box doesn't actually scroll properly to allow me to access to the key to send my report. In order to flag a comment, I have to swap to the full computer site, write and send the report, and then swap back to mobile.

Since I mainly use mobile, I don't flag many comments due to the annoying extra steps. Perhaps someone can suggest a solution or different browser? Or is this just a general problem for mobile users?

Thank you for raising that point about your mobile experience with the forums.That's a great call out and I can absolutely pass the suggestion along to the appropriate team.

GhostofDatthaw · December 2019

lordrichter wrote: »

GhostofDatthaw wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

GhostofDatthaw wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

JackDaniell wrote: »

Moderating a public forum is where they went wrong.

Instead of doing something about the problems that lead to all the criticism they are busy trying to manufacture a more favorable image.

Time and money would be better spent just improving the darn game.

Except that it's not a public forum, it's a private one run by ZOS who are entitled to apply and enforce such TOS as they deem appropriate. Players are equally entitled to choose whether or not to use the forum on that basis.

It's public anyone can read it, You just have to me a member to participate. But I think you missed Jack's point in your hurry to disagree

I didn't miss any point, I corrected one. We're discussing posting TOS, and as you agree with me you have to be a member to post so those TOS will apply.

I guess what I'm trying to say, yes it's a Private forum in the sense you have to be a member and agree to tos in order to participate. But the information in general is public, anyone can read what is said here. So zos has more of a reason to remove negative comments in order to save face in a publicly viewed forum.

People might think they remove negative comments to save face, but if that is the intent, they aren't doing a good job of it. There are tons of negative comments here. It isn't even just the negative comments as much as the uninformed negative tone, piled on exaggerations and excessive drama, as well.

You don't see me around here much because I got tired of the negative comments. That is a little ironic because I have made my share of negative comments, although mild compared to now. The current forum has gone way beyond and makes me feel uncomfortable.

I'm not having technical or performance issues in the game, and so I just don't feel like this is the place for me to be.

I guess from my experience and my point of view I have formed a different opinion on how they handle things. I have been suspended and then banned for asking "if and when a skill might be fixed" it was because of "bumping" which is against tos. But if asking about a fix that was ignored is bumping then idk what to think. But I will also agree a large majority is just multi post and salty post.

VaranisArano · December 2019

ZOS_Nith wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

ZOS_Nith wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

ZOS_Adrikoth wrote: »

Hey folks, we figured we would come in this thread and try to clear some things up. Criticism is perfectly fine and we do not remove comments simply because we do not like the poster's opinion.

With that being said, our moderation team does remove posts that consist of bashing, trolling, inappropriate or rude commentary. These, along with our other Community Rules, are enforced to ensure that discussions stay civil:

We understand that sometimes tempers rise, but it is never acceptable to resort to rude comments and insults. This goes for rude comments and insults directed at other community members, and ZeniMax Online Studios employees alike.

We do not expect forum members to be completely happy about every single thing all the time and a major reason that we have these forums is for you all to express any issues that feel exist in your experience with ESO. It is okay to express frustration or disagreement, as long as it doesn't cross the line of one of our Community Rules. Trolling, baiting, or directing rude comments to your fellow community members does not contribute to a healthy discussion.

Please keep in mind that discussing disciplinary action is also against our forum rules. Our team is happy to discuss any action that is taken on your forum account, and you can appeal any forum action by reaching out to our moderation team or by submitting a support ticket at help.elderscrollsonline.com

We hope that this clears up some of the concerns mentioned in this thread.

@ZOS_Adrikoth care to elaborate on that point of criticism? I've had posts edited that weren't criticisms of ZOS but just pointed out the fixes a game like FF14 went through which were completely removed.

Forum toxicity is increasing because of this type of moderation and solely this moderation. We can't speak our mind and genuine posters are told their comments are trolling or bait (which is now just asking a question for a response). If I wanted this place to be a hug box I'd just hang out on the ESO reddit but I'm an adult and this is a game for adults where you get treated like a child for having valid criticism.

P.S. Wouldn't be surprised if a certain other mod just banned me again for this post

Thank you for asking this, it's a good question and one we can elaborate on. Sometimes when several members have a heated discussion and the thread derails, comments simply become personal insults or baiting. In cases where a moderator removes the part of the conversation that contained attacks directed at others, it's with the hope that the discussion will get back on track and the thread topic can continue to be discussed. With that comes comments made by people who are not involved in the back and forth, who are replying the derailing comments. Even if the member may be speaking to a different point that the combative person made, they often quote the verbal attacks. When the problematic comments are removed, the remaining posts (that have not broken any rules), don't make any sense in the thread as their original context is no longer there. This is one of the other reasons we ask forum members to flag comments that are breaking the rules rather than quoting or responding to them. It saves the comments that are contributing to the conversation and prevents the thread from derailing.

While I don't know for a fact if this was the reasoning behind your comments removal, I hoped I was able to clarify some of the moderation team's processes.

I highly encourage you to reach out to a moderator if you ever have questions about why a moderation action was taken. Like Adrikoth previously mentioned, we do not discuss moderation action publicly but we are happy to answer questions via PMs. If you find yourself unable to contact the moderator to took the action, please feel free to reach out to another moderator.

@ZOS_Nith Thanks for clarifying and for continuing to communicate regarding moderation practices. I've noticed you and Adrikoth being more transparent in that regard lately, and it's appreciated.

One concern I do have with your suggestion to simply report TOS-breaking comments is that I find it rather hard to do so using the mobile site UI for Google Chrome. If I try to report anything longer than a very short, unnested comment, the report box doesn't actually scroll properly to allow me to access to the key to send my report. In order to flag a comment, I have to swap to the full computer site, write and send the report, and then swap back to mobile.

Since I mainly use mobile, I don't flag many comments due to the annoying extra steps. Perhaps someone can suggest a solution or different browser? Or is this just a general problem for mobile users?

Thank you for raising that point about your mobile experience with the forums.That's a great call out and I can absolutely pass the suggestion along to the appropriate team.

Thank you!

nolangrady · December 2019

Not sure why my post was removed. It is my opinion that this team is more focused on public perception (censoring posts) than focusing on fixing the game and player feedback. I’m sure this too will be removed.

Negative opinions are still opinions are they not? This speaks to what the OP was discussing so why remove it?

Sylvermynx · December 2019

lordrichter wrote: »

People might think they remove negative comments to save face, but if that is the intent, they aren't doing a good job of it. There are tons of negative comments here. It isn't even just the negative comments as much as the uninformed negative tone, piled on exaggerations and excessive drama, as well.

You don't see me around here much because I got tired of the negative comments. That is a little ironic because I have made my share of negative comments, although mild compared to now. The current forum has gone way beyond and makes me feel uncomfortable.

I'm not having technical or performance issues in the game, and so I just don't feel like this is the place for me to be.

Right with you there.... I just don't want to post much about much any more.

CassandraGemini wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

@ZOS_Nith Thanks for clarifying and for continuing to communicate regarding moderation practices. I've noticed you and Adrikoth being more transparent in that regard lately, and it's appreciated.

One concern I do have with your suggestion to simply report TOS-breaking comments is that I find it rather hard to do so using the mobile site UI for Google Chrome. If I try to report anything longer than a very short, unnested comment, the report box doesn't actually scroll properly to allow me to access to the key to send my report. In order to flag a comment, I have to swap to the full computer site, write and send the report, and then swap back to mobile.

Since I mainly use mobile, I don't flag many comments due to the annoying extra steps. Perhaps someone can suggest a solution or different browser? Or is this just a general problem for mobile users?

I've actually encountered the same problem, not on mobile, but on my laptop. There was no way to scroll down enough to activate the "send" button, I had to use "tab" and "enter" to make it work. However, I was also using Google Chrome, so maybe it has something to do with the browser?

I as well - on my desktop, with Pale Moon browser (fork of latest firefox). I don't ever have any windows full-screen, and the buttons show up only if I have the browser open full-screen. Now, I can actually get the pointer hand to show where I need to click to Send Report, it's just a very thin line area above the footer area.

Kahnak · December 2019

GhostofDatthaw wrote: »

Kahnak wrote: »

GhostofDatthaw wrote: »

Kahnak wrote: »

Sure, it's the moderators that are to blame for your adversarial attitude towards others and your insistence on: Trolling, baiting, or directing rude comments to your fellow community members does not contribute to a healthy discussion.

Completely unjustified, I'm sure.

As justified as belittling sarcasm?

If tepid sarcasm hurts your feelings then you may want to avoid the forums altogether.

Could say the same for what you were talking about, if you can't handle baiting and trolls you may want to avoid the forums altogether

Sure, except for there aren't any rules against sarcasm.

Shantu · December 2019

I got my wrist slapped once with a "formal warning" for being critical of the combat devs, but I deserved that one as I was being personally insulting about it. Other than that, I've voiced lots of criticism about developmental decisions without any moderating. Disagreements are fine, even if heated at times. I think it depends on the tone. When your intent starts to be malicious and personally disparaging, lines get crossed.

Goregrinder · December 2019

Imagine if all your ex gf's started posting on your FB timeline, critiquing your every day life choices, and sharing stories with each other about you right on your timeline, commenting on all of your photos, reacting to every one of your comments. Now that's probably a small and controllable list. Now imagine that every single coworker you've ever had in your life started doing the same thing on your FB timeline, but about their every day interactions with you at work, work ethic, level of skill etc, but also how they felt about you as a person, how you looked, smelled, and things not related to actual work....

Anotherone773 · December 2019

Shantu wrote: »

I got my wrist slapped once with a "formal warning" for being critical of the combat devs, but I deserved that one as I was being personally insulting about it. Other than that, I've voiced lots of criticism about developmental decisions without any moderating. Disagreements are fine, even if heated at times. I think it depends on the tone. When your intent starts to be malicious and personally disparaging, lines get crossed.

I think that sometimes people dont realize that they are being offensive to someone, making personal attacks, baiting, ranting, etc. As a personal example, when i was with one of my exs, we fought a lot and there was a lot of drama in our relationship. This would bleed over into interactions and relationships with others without me being aware of it. So my natural state was sort of slightly aggressive combat ready and would degrade quickly from there with anything i viewed as negative.

It took me a couple of years after that relationship to get back to a more healthy normal state because i was always so ready to be defensive and go in guns blazing. Only after looking back did i realize that something as simple as a difference of opinion here on these forums, for example, could cause me to see it as a personal attack, even though others might not and feel the need to defend myself/position with any and all means available with various levels of aggression.

When i read some of the comments here in the entire forum over the last couple of years i wonder how many posters are in a similar situation to what i was in. How many do not know they are being aggressive or offensive? How do not know they are ranting? It is why i dont typically question mods because they are the only ones in these "debates" that will have an unbiased( we hope) viewpoint.

In my experience, and somewhat confirmed by Gina today, companies dont care about trying to silence criticism. They do care about PR because a company with a bad reputation last long. Damage control often consist of minimizing the damage from a bad event. For example, when they had major issues last year or the year before with the anniversary event, they extended by like almost 2 weeks or something. That is damage control by the PR department. People are frustrated so what is a quick and easy way we can lower their frustration?

People like Gina will collect that information. But she will collect it from multiple sources as she said. We, on the forums are a tiny fraction of that, so if we are collectively unhappy that is a small part of the player base. Meanwhile you have pretty favorable reviews on the Elsweyr chapter on steam and 90% of Google users would recommend this game. So now we look like the people rocking the boat.

At the same time the people here should carry more weight. For one , it takes more effort to come here and post. Two, most of the forum is filled with people who are consistently active here to various degrees. We keep coming back and giving our thoughts on various topics. Those people that review the game, give a snapshot of their opinion of it and that is usually it. Some of the reviews on steam have less than 2 hours of play time. You cant properly assess this game in 2 hours. Probably spent an hour making their character and another hour figuring out controls and doing the tutorial. So people who are passionate enough and interested enough in this game to come here and post regularly should carry more weight than the general population that posts a snapshot of their thoughts.

Modding, from my experience is very hands off usually with a set of rules on how tightly they want the forum moderated. This forum is in the middle of the pact from my experience. Their are some companies that do try to quell any negativity on their forums, this isnt one of them. I as recently as last year play a game by that company( they are defunct now, go figure). They deleted all criticism of the game or the company and its policies. About as critical as you could get was asking for help with tech issues and reporting possible bugs and exploiters. Everything else was deleted and if you kept posting threads that got deleted you would get permanently banned.

The mods here will have to be neutral, as it serves neither the customer nor the company for them to have a biased hand in moderating. I would not be surprised if the mods did not even work directly for ZOS but a sub contractor, so they dont feel pressured into taking the companies side all the time when moderating. Its not uncommon.