Racial Passives

Bobby_V_Rockit · December 2019

Moar passives for our Argonian overlords!!!

Jaraal · December 2019

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

nesakinter wrote: »

@WrathOfInnos Bosmer is one of the BiS PvP stamina races right now. Majority stamina builds are actually either Nord or Bosmer with Orc coming third. That roll passive is huge in PvP.

The roll dodge speed boost is ok outside of PVP, and I can see how it would be much better in PVP. The penetration boost is goofy, but again really geared towards PVP since PVE content has a fairly low soft cap for pen. The detection 'bonus' can only work* in PVP. For PVE the entire passive can be skipped and you'd never miss it. That makes its a garbage passive.

*This is a very generous use of the word 'work' since you are still much better off using active skills or potions to detect other hidden players. The Way of Air set is decon trash for a reason.

It’s the 250 stam recovery (before major/minor buffs) that makes it the best class currently. The sustain changes have made it more difficult for DPS and players are finding that it’s just easier to maintain a rotation on them, so much so that it trumps the extra weapon damage of other classes.

But that's a different racial passive (Y'ffre's Endurance) that the roll dodge passive (Hunter's Eye). Which basically cancels the stamina recovery out, because you're burning stamina to activate the small speed (and usually redundant penetration) buff. You're actually better off mashing the sprint button, you'll travel farther before you run out of stamina, not to mention you aren't doing any damage while you're tumbling around.

MartiniDaniels · December 2019

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Good to see another racial passives complaint.

Nothing changed since February:
1. Breton and orc definitive BiS for PVE. Especially orc, plainly much better then all other stamina races.
2. Lore problems for argonians and bosmers. What's most funny is that there are ton in-game dialogs where argonians are described as protected from poisons and bosmers are sneaky..
3. Devs updated healing done set bonuses but didn't updated them for argonians, because they are afraid of return of immortal argonians... while they are ok with natural stacking of mist+undeath...
4. Bosmer penetration on roll-dodge passive is useless in PVE. Just keep speed bonus to roll-dodge and move penetration with decreased value (750-950) to permanent bonuses.
5. For PVP races are balanced nicely.

Overall, changes were not so bad and races are not so shoe-horned to different roles as before.. so just few tweaks could've solve all problems, but they needed to sell adventure pack and then that huge pack of everything for 2k... so go p2orc or enjoy 5% less dps.

I really like your point 4. Bosmer having permanent Physical Penetration would be great. I don’t even think the current value of 1500 would be overpowered compared to the stat density on Orc right now. For a hypothetical comparison of Orc vs Bosmer with this change:
- 258 Weap Dmg vs 258 Stam Recov, both 2 standard set bonuses but Orc’s is objectively better
- 2000 Stam vs 2000 Stam, exactly the same
- 1000 Health vs 1500 Physical Penetration, both about 1 standard set bonus with Bosmer getting the offensive and Orc defensive for this one
- Sprint Speed + Sprint Cost + Self Healing vs Detection + Poison Resist + Dodge Speed, all situational, mainly for flavor and PVP utility, fairly balanced

One additional option could be to make it 1500 Physical and Spell Pen. This would have virtually no impact on meta builds or racial balance, while giving more options to those that want to cast spells on Bosmer.

They could maybe drop it down to around 1200 Pen, or 80% of the standard bonus of 1487. Because Orc’s 1000 Health is only 83% of a standard 1206 Health set bonus. 750-950 would be too weak IMO.

Yes, I'm ok with 1200

I just know that some people may enrage about any buff, so I used 950 as value which looks lesser, you know like 999 on price tags

JobooAGS · December 2019

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Good to see another racial passives complaint.

Nothing changed since February:
1. Breton and orc definitive BiS for PVE. Especially orc, plainly much better then all other stamina races.
2. Lore problems for argonians and bosmers. What's most funny is that there are ton in-game dialogs where argonians are described as protected from poisons and bosmers are sneaky..
3. Devs updated healing done set bonuses but didn't updated them for argonians, because they are afraid of return of immortal argonians... while they are ok with natural stacking of mist+undeath...
4. Bosmer penetration on roll-dodge passive is useless in PVE. Just keep speed bonus to roll-dodge and move penetration with decreased value (750-950) to permanent bonuses.
5. For PVP races are balanced nicely.

Overall, changes were not so bad and races are not so shoe-horned to different roles as before.. so just few tweaks could've solve all problems, but they needed to sell adventure pack and then that huge pack of everything for 2k... so go p2orc or enjoy 5% less dps.

I really like your point 4. Bosmer having permanent Physical Penetration would be great. I don’t even think the current value of 1500 would be overpowered compared to the stat density on Orc right now. For a hypothetical comparison of Orc vs Bosmer with this change:
- 258 Weap Dmg vs 258 Stam Recov, both 2 standard set bonuses but Orc’s is objectively better
- 2000 Stam vs 2000 Stam, exactly the same
- 1000 Health vs 1500 Physical Penetration, both about 1 standard set bonus with Bosmer getting the offensive and Orc defensive for this one
- Sprint Speed + Sprint Cost + Self Healing vs Detection + Poison Resist + Dodge Speed, all situational, mainly for flavor and PVP utility, fairly balanced

One additional option could be to make it 1500 Physical and Spell Pen. This would have virtually no impact on meta builds or racial balance, while giving more options to those that want to cast spells on Bosmer.

They could maybe drop it down to around 1200 Pen, or 80% of the standard bonus of 1487. Because Orc’s 1000 Health is only 83% of a standard 1206 Health set bonus. 750-950 would be too weak IMO.

Yes, I'm ok with 1200 I just know that some people may enrage about any buff, so I used 950 as value which looks lesser, you know like 999 on price tags

Don’t forget about redguards, within IDEAL situations only 380 UNSCALABLE Stam regen (950 every 5 seconds) and pigeon holed into using weapon skills to get the most out of their passives meaning your builds are limited severely.

MartiniDaniels · December 2019

JobooAGS wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Good to see another racial passives complaint.

Nothing changed since February:
1. Breton and orc definitive BiS for PVE. Especially orc, plainly much better then all other stamina races.
2. Lore problems for argonians and bosmers. What's most funny is that there are ton in-game dialogs where argonians are described as protected from poisons and bosmers are sneaky..
3. Devs updated healing done set bonuses but didn't updated them for argonians, because they are afraid of return of immortal argonians... while they are ok with natural stacking of mist+undeath...
4. Bosmer penetration on roll-dodge passive is useless in PVE. Just keep speed bonus to roll-dodge and move penetration with decreased value (750-950) to permanent bonuses.
5. For PVP races are balanced nicely.

Overall, changes were not so bad and races are not so shoe-horned to different roles as before.. so just few tweaks could've solve all problems, but they needed to sell adventure pack and then that huge pack of everything for 2k... so go p2orc or enjoy 5% less dps.

I really like your point 4. Bosmer having permanent Physical Penetration would be great. I don’t even think the current value of 1500 would be overpowered compared to the stat density on Orc right now. For a hypothetical comparison of Orc vs Bosmer with this change:
- 258 Weap Dmg vs 258 Stam Recov, both 2 standard set bonuses but Orc’s is objectively better
- 2000 Stam vs 2000 Stam, exactly the same
- 1000 Health vs 1500 Physical Penetration, both about 1 standard set bonus with Bosmer getting the offensive and Orc defensive for this one
- Sprint Speed + Sprint Cost + Self Healing vs Detection + Poison Resist + Dodge Speed, all situational, mainly for flavor and PVP utility, fairly balanced

One additional option could be to make it 1500 Physical and Spell Pen. This would have virtually no impact on meta builds or racial balance, while giving more options to those that want to cast spells on Bosmer.

They could maybe drop it down to around 1200 Pen, or 80% of the standard bonus of 1487. Because Orc’s 1000 Health is only 83% of a standard 1206 Health set bonus. 750-950 would be too weak IMO.

Yes, I'm ok with 1200 I just know that some people may enrage about any buff, so I used 950 as value which looks lesser, you know like 999 on price tags

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Good to see another racial passives complaint.

Nothing changed since February:
1. Breton and orc definitive BiS for PVE. Especially orc, plainly much better then all other stamina races.
2. Lore problems for argonians and bosmers. What's most funny is that there are ton in-game dialogs where argonians are described as protected from poisons and bosmers are sneaky..
3. Devs updated healing done set bonuses but didn't updated them for argonians, because they are afraid of return of immortal argonians... while they are ok with natural stacking of mist+undeath...
4. Bosmer penetration on roll-dodge passive is useless in PVE. Just keep speed bonus to roll-dodge and move penetration with decreased value (750-950) to permanent bonuses.
5. For PVP races are balanced nicely.

Overall, changes were not so bad and races are not so shoe-horned to different roles as before.. so just few tweaks could've solve all problems, but they needed to sell adventure pack and then that huge pack of everything for 2k... so go p2orc or enjoy 5% less dps.

I really like your point 4. Bosmer having permanent Physical Penetration would be great. I don’t even think the current value of 1500 would be overpowered compared to the stat density on Orc right now. For a hypothetical comparison of Orc vs Bosmer with this change:
- 258 Weap Dmg vs 258 Stam Recov, both 2 standard set bonuses but Orc’s is objectively better
- 2000 Stam vs 2000 Stam, exactly the same
- 1000 Health vs 1500 Physical Penetration, both about 1 standard set bonus with Bosmer getting the offensive and Orc defensive for this one
- Sprint Speed + Sprint Cost + Self Healing vs Detection + Poison Resist + Dodge Speed, all situational, mainly for flavor and PVP utility, fairly balanced

One additional option could be to make it 1500 Physical and Spell Pen. This would have virtually no impact on meta builds or racial balance, while giving more options to those that want to cast spells on Bosmer.

They could maybe drop it down to around 1200 Pen, or 80% of the standard bonus of 1487. Because Orc’s 1000 Health is only 83% of a standard 1206 Health set bonus. 750-950 would be too weak IMO.

Yes, I'm ok with 1200 I just know that some people may enrage about any buff, so I used 950 as value which looks lesser, you know like 999 on price tags

Don’t forget about redguards, within IDEAL situations only 380 UNSCALABLE Stam regen (950 every 5 seconds) and pigeon holed into using weapon skills to get the most out of their passives meaning your builds are limited severely.

Yeah, redguards are exactly in the same boat as bosmers (snare reduce is barely useful in PVE).. if it were me, I'll bring in such changes:
- bosmer -> flat penetration instead of roll-dodge one. ~1200
- redguard -> + 600 maxstamina
- khajiit -> +2% crit damage
- imperial -> + 500 health (to increase synergy with lava foot soup and also even out tanking abilities with nord)
- dunmer -> leave as is
- orc -> -1000 health but +180 health recovery

Oh, and argonian - +128 SD/WD as compensation for healing done buff, which lizzies didn't received

loki504 · December 2019

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

monkey36948 wrote: »

The Racial Passives should become a completely new system where the race is just a cosmetic change and the passives are there own skill tree that are separate from you being that race so that you can cosmetically be a Breton but skill wise you have orc passives so you can use that toon as a stamina dps

i know several people that are not having optimal setups because they want to change there long running toon to still look the same

i feel like the easiest fix for this problem would be to change the crown store appearance token to what the race change is now and change the race change to a skill change for racial passives

As a player Coming from GW2, I'm 100% against your suggestion.

As a player coming from prior Elder Scrolls games, I’m also 100% against the suggestion.

You can clear the vast majority of the content in ESO using any race-class-role combination.

Vast majority? You can clear any content with any race/class/role combi. Just make sure your gear/skills are on par. Race is just part of the min maxing meta. If you don't bother with vet trials/hardmodes any race is fine. Even a redguard healer for example.

Iskiab · December 2019

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Good to see another racial passives complaint.

Nothing changed since February:
1. Breton and orc definitive BiS for PVE. Especially orc, plainly much better then all other stamina races.
2. Lore problems for argonians and bosmers. What's most funny is that there are ton in-game dialogs where argonians are described as protected from poisons and bosmers are sneaky..
3. Devs updated healing done set bonuses but didn't updated them for argonians, because they are afraid of return of immortal argonians... while they are ok with natural stacking of mist+undeath...
4. Bosmer penetration on roll-dodge passive is useless in PVE. Just keep speed bonus to roll-dodge and move penetration with decreased value (750-950) to permanent bonuses.
5. For PVP races are balanced nicely.

Overall, changes were not so bad and races are not so shoe-horned to different roles as before.. so just few tweaks could've solve all problems, but they needed to sell adventure pack and then that huge pack of everything for 2k... so go p2orc or enjoy 5% less dps.

I really like your point 4. Bosmer having permanent Physical Penetration would be great. I don’t even think the current value of 1500 would be overpowered compared to the stat density on Orc right now. For a hypothetical comparison of Orc vs Bosmer with this change:
- 258 Weap Dmg vs 258 Stam Recov, both 2 standard set bonuses but Orc’s is objectively better
- 2000 Stam vs 2000 Stam, exactly the same
- 1000 Health vs 1500 Physical Penetration, both about 1 standard set bonus with Bosmer getting the offensive and Orc defensive for this one
- Sprint Speed + Sprint Cost + Self Healing vs Detection + Poison Resist + Dodge Speed, all situational, mainly for flavor and PVP utility, fairly balanced

One additional option could be to make it 1500 Physical and Spell Pen. This would have virtually no impact on meta builds or racial balance, while giving more options to those that want to cast spells on Bosmer.

They could maybe drop it down to around 1200 Pen, or 80% of the standard bonus of 1487. Because Orc’s 1000 Health is only 83% of a standard 1206 Health set bonus. 750-950 would be too weak IMO.

Yes, I'm ok with 1200 I just know that some people may enrage about any buff, so I used 950 as value which looks lesser, you know like 999 on price tags

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Good to see another racial passives complaint.

Nothing changed since February:
1. Breton and orc definitive BiS for PVE. Especially orc, plainly much better then all other stamina races.
2. Lore problems for argonians and bosmers. What's most funny is that there are ton in-game dialogs where argonians are described as protected from poisons and bosmers are sneaky..
3. Devs updated healing done set bonuses but didn't updated them for argonians, because they are afraid of return of immortal argonians... while they are ok with natural stacking of mist+undeath...
4. Bosmer penetration on roll-dodge passive is useless in PVE. Just keep speed bonus to roll-dodge and move penetration with decreased value (750-950) to permanent bonuses.
5. For PVP races are balanced nicely.

Overall, changes were not so bad and races are not so shoe-horned to different roles as before.. so just few tweaks could've solve all problems, but they needed to sell adventure pack and then that huge pack of everything for 2k... so go p2orc or enjoy 5% less dps.

I really like your point 4. Bosmer having permanent Physical Penetration would be great. I don’t even think the current value of 1500 would be overpowered compared to the stat density on Orc right now. For a hypothetical comparison of Orc vs Bosmer with this change:
- 258 Weap Dmg vs 258 Stam Recov, both 2 standard set bonuses but Orc’s is objectively better
- 2000 Stam vs 2000 Stam, exactly the same
- 1000 Health vs 1500 Physical Penetration, both about 1 standard set bonus with Bosmer getting the offensive and Orc defensive for this one
- Sprint Speed + Sprint Cost + Self Healing vs Detection + Poison Resist + Dodge Speed, all situational, mainly for flavor and PVP utility, fairly balanced

One additional option could be to make it 1500 Physical and Spell Pen. This would have virtually no impact on meta builds or racial balance, while giving more options to those that want to cast spells on Bosmer.

They could maybe drop it down to around 1200 Pen, or 80% of the standard bonus of 1487. Because Orc’s 1000 Health is only 83% of a standard 1206 Health set bonus. 750-950 would be too weak IMO.

Yes, I'm ok with 1200 I just know that some people may enrage about any buff, so I used 950 as value which looks lesser, you know like 999 on price tags

Don’t forget about redguards, within IDEAL situations only 380 UNSCALABLE Stam regen (950 every 5 seconds) and pigeon holed into using weapon skills to get the most out of their passives meaning your builds are limited severely.

Yeah, redguards are exactly in the same boat as bosmers (snare reduce is barely useful in PVE).. if it were me, I'll bring in such changes:
- bosmer -> flat penetration instead of roll-dodge one. ~1200
- redguard -> + 600 maxstamina
- khajiit -> +2% crit damage
- imperial -> + 500 health (to increase synergy with lava foot soup and also even out tanking abilities with nord)
- dunmer -> leave as is
- orc -> -1000 health but +180 health recovery

Oh, and argonian - +128 SD/WD as compensation for healing done buff, which lizzies didn't received

Think that’s too strong for argonian and enough to make argonian the optimal mag pvp race. Their potion passive is equivalent to almost 200 mag, stam and health regen if you pop one on cooldown, it’s just given in a different way.

Xvorg · December 2019

JobooAGS wrote: »

In previous elder scrolls games, racials were only important in the beginning to midgame. By endgame, racials were practically to completely obsolete.

Most of them, except Breton's magic resistance. That one is truly the reason why most TES builds are always Breton.

Anyway, here I think is balanced overall. Some tweaks should help

MartiniDaniels · December 2019

Xvorg wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

In previous elder scrolls games, racials were only important in the beginning to midgame. By endgame, racials were practically to completely obsolete.

Most of them, except Breton's magic resistance. That one is truly the reason why most TES builds are always Breton.

Anyway, here I think is balanced overall. Some tweaks should help

Yeah, Breton was OP. Especially in Morrowind, where you can use boots of blinding speed from the very beginning and then after savior's hide theft you just super fast without downsides...
In Skyrim too, it gave ability to reach resistance cap very fast...
I guess this is good old TES tradition to make Breton best race in terms of overall package

Xvorg · December 2019

Drako_Ei wrote: »

I wish we could choose another race skill line with out changing the appareance of our characters

Some people may reply:
BuT tHeN eVeRyOnE wIlL Be UsInG tHe sAmE PaSsIvEs

And you are not wrong.. but that only shows the imbalance in racial passives, if they get rid of them, i would not miss them.

Passives in ESO are not as determining as you are trying to convey. And no, not everyone would be using the very same passives, that is going to depend on the build.

For example, a Healer doesn't need Dunmer Ruination, a tank doesn't need Hunter's eye, but you can build a viable healer as a dunmer, as well as a viable tank as a Bosmer.

Xvorg · December 2019

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

In previous elder scrolls games, racials were only important in the beginning to midgame. By endgame, racials were practically to completely obsolete.

Most of them, except Breton's magic resistance. That one is truly the reason why most TES builds are always Breton.

Anyway, here I think is balanced overall. Some tweaks should help

Yeah, Breton was OP. Especially in Morrowind, where you can use boots of blinding speed from the very beginning and then after savior's hide theft you just super fast without downsides...
In Skyrim too, it gave ability to reach resistance cap very fast...
I guess this is good old TES tradition to make Breton best race in terms of overall package

True...

And the only race able to use Apprentice in Morrowind and Oblivion (In Skyrim it was much more difficult).

I remembered another good combo... Dunmer + Lord, especially in Oblivion (the best Divine Crusader build)

OneForSorrow · December 2019

I just want dps argonians to be a thing.

It's weird to me that they get no stamina bonus or anything for stealth considering the Shadowscales.

Kambo · December 2019

The original balancing for the racial passives was pretty wack before they did tuning, but even then I played a Dunmer StamDK and did well. The only real difference now is that I don't really have pointless passives no matter what DPS build I play, be it Stam or Mag, and I like that a lot.

The argument for completely changing the racial passive system was brought up before when people voiced an unease in the tuning of the passives, and most I saw agreed that doing such a thing removes the fantasy and uniqueness that comes from playing a specific race over another. When it comes to the racial passives the majority of them don't play too huge a part in increasing DPS unless you're trying to be as optimized as possible with your build, like you're wanting to go hardcore into playing trials and need every bonus you could possibly get.

Overall I still think changing the system in the way you've suggested is a bad move. And I believe I can express why with a simple story.

I have this friend who decided he wanted to play Oblivion, and so he went to make a character. He decided that while he wanted to play a Nord or Imperial he wanted the racial bonuses that Redguard provides. And so he did something very questionable, which I personally found to be borderline dumb.

To avoid potentially breaking rules here, let's just say that he got what he wanted from a simple mod. And plenty of people ragged on him for it, myself included.

The principal of wanting the racial passives of one race while looking like another parallels with this, and that adds even more of a distaste for the idea to me.

Strider__Roshin · December 2019

Race should be cosmetic only that way I can give my Nord more lore friendly passives.

Ryanoxx · December 2019

I'd like to see a magicka nord because literally everyone on stam is tanky and mag is squishy in every setup without going for any set that gives resistances. Also the ultgen would be nice... but that will probably never happen.

Toon_Raider · December 2019

Since all npc races uses both swords, bows and staffs, it would imply that they all can do anything they want.
Choosing a race should come with stamina OR magic options.
When choosing a race you should choose magic or stamina in the character creation tree.
NO respec tokens. So you play what you choose.

Vyvrhel · December 2019

Alienoutlaw wrote: »

sounds totally pointless

No. It would finally make some sense.

Vyvrhel · December 2019

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

I’ve always liked the lore behind races and meaningful differences between them.

While this sounds nice, it is absolutely unbalanceable. Also, the racial passives as they are and will be force the players to select a specific race for a specific build. So sorry no Altmer swordsmen or archers, and no Nord mages etc. While we know that you can make an suboptimal Altmer swordsman character, it will be SUBOPTIMAL and as most MMOs you will sooner or later want to be optimal to have best results and therefore be welcome in group play.

What the OP suggets (and I and certainly others have suggested some time ago) means you will create a character with your own mix of talents and it is a good idea.

IronWooshu · December 2019

Why cant you make a Nord Magicka character? Having extra health and stamina playing as magicka never hurt and the ultimate generation and resistances are icing on top of the cake.

You only think you cant because they arent meta but you arent doing top DPS as a stamina Nord anyways.

Taemiru · December 2019

Vyvrhel wrote: »

While this sounds nice, it is absolutely unbalanceable. Also, the racial passives as they are and will be force the players to select a specific race for a specific build. So sorry no Altmer swordsmen or archers, and no Nord mages etc. While we know that you can make an suboptimal Altmer swordsman character, it will be SUBOPTIMAL and as most MMOs you will sooner or later want to be optimal to have best results and therefore be welcome in group play.

What the OP suggets (and I and certainly others have suggested some time ago) means you will create a character with your own mix of talents and it is a good idea.

SUBOPTIMAL is like.. 3-5k dps difference (on raid dummy) for a skilled player that can pull out the best out of class and character. And this difference is nothing if you are not in some tryhard score pushing guild. If you want breton stamblade, or redguard mag-necro you can play it and complete all the hardest pve content.

And besides that if there were no racial passives all of sudden the population of nords in tamriel would explode when poor orcs would see the same fate as dwermers ~

Trancestor · December 2019

The race changes is probably the single good thing ZOS have done this year, for pvp at least all the races are in a good place now, with some still needing a slight buff but a lot better than before.